#251 Edited by HeraldofGanthet (3610 posts) - - Show Bio

@daawesome2: The origins are different no doubt as Eternals were originally just regular humans. But we can't deny the similarities between the characters. Obviously the power level of Orion is greater than any Eternal with the exception of Zuras and possibly Thanos. And there are characters that have no counterpart..Mister Miracle and Granny Goodness for instance. But we can't act like no similarities exist. I think this is the one thing Blac and I agree on in this thread.

You, Blac, and I agree more than you may realize. It was never my intention to say that there are no simularities between the Eternals and the New Gods. It was to say that the simularities between the two races are superficial at best, at least in terms of their actual stature, their power scaling, and their standing among their peers. The New Gods are actually dozens of stories tall (until they travel through Boom Tubes that rescale their mass and size down to blend in with their destinations), Orion is more powerful than any Eternal (Zuras and/or Thanos perhaps notwithstanding), and as I mentioned, I LOVE the Eternals and don't think that they get enough airtime. It's just as far as power scaling is concerned, i've never seen the (Marvel) Council of Skyfathers equate the Eternals to their level while simultaeneously respecting them and giving them their space to operate in peace. In the DCU though, the Olympians, the Asgardians, the Guardians, and Lords of Order and Chaos, and other extra-terrestial Pantheons have always viewed the Gods of the Fourth World as their equals or (in the case of the Apokoliptians), a legitimate threat to be on guard against. I've yet to see Marvel's Odin scared to death that the citizens of Olympia were going to storm the Bifrost.

Thanos is a unique case because after taking his Eternal DNA and powerset to its absolute max through training, it was'nt enough. So he added to his already impressive powers Black Magic and Bionics that took him to the power levels we know him for today (outside of Cosmic Cubes and such). So Odin would be very concerned if the Mad Titan stormed the Bifrost, if nothing more than by his reputation....

#252 Edited by DaAwesome2 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet:

To be fair Marvel's mythological gods are a bit above DC's mythological deities. Ares being the exception. Odin didn't even come on the rainbow bridge until he saw the other Asgardians gettin' beat down by Thanos, Surfer and Infinity Watch.

#253 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@daawesome2 said:

@blacharrt1:

Right. I have to say though that while intelligent Hulk from the 80's was generally weaker than the Grey/Savage/Banner personalities Prof Hulk that Samson brought together...the mountain range feat was better than anything I remember that Prof Hulk doing strength wise. To be honest, at the time of Secret Wars, that was probably one of the top 10 feats of pure strength for the Hulk. Remember that back then he was listed in the handbook as not being able survive a near hit from a nuclear warhead. Flash forward to World War Hulk arc when it was mentioned in the book that nukes only made him stronger.

I guess it depends on the writer as far as both (or all 3 if you count Grey version) personalities needed. When Doc Samson figured how to separate Banner/Hulk the Hulk was initially stronger but grew weaker as did Banner. But before when Banner's persona was gone completely and Hulk went savage in the early 80's he didn't appear to grow weaker w/o Banner. But I don't remember how Hulk and Banner got reunited in that arc so it's possilbe he did grow weaker.

Yes but it was made clear that the two could not be separated permanently and that it was killing them both. It's true that in the early years Bannerless Hulk was pretty unstoppable (that didn't seem to be the case so much at the end of incredible hulk when banner was trying to kill hulk, that hulk seemed weaker to me, and had a hard time maintaining rage as well), but as i stated before there was a draw back to it. I think it's been well established that one really can't survive without the other for very long, however one can be assimilated into the other. Maestro on the one extreme, and for a time when Banner could not turn into the Hulk, in their history but eventually they always come back together. The trouble with Hulk is that he is ever evolving and his powers is limitless, which means that he was constantly get stronger, there is also the fact that he can adapt to survive pretty much anything, which is a fairly recent development. For a long time Banner and Hulk simply didn't know they could survive without air, until the came that they needed to, same in space.

Now the issue here is, has the Hulk shown with Banner intelligence and Hulk body to be equal to other Hulks. The answer is yes and no. The answer is he's different, but his one main difference is what makes him weaker than the others. He can't tap into the anger that fuels the Hulk's powers like the others can, but at base he is stronger than the others. I would gather that secret wars green Hulk at base was still stronger than Grey Hulk who i believe at base was only a 50 tonner. Green savage i believe was 75 at base, but both could amp above class 100. Professor was 100 ton and that was it. As you stated he had some amazing feats. but he is no where near the Strongest Hulk. in order. WWB, WWH Cosmic Hulk, War Hulk, Savage Hulk (with and without Banner), Green Hulk with Banner brain from secret war (but that wasn't a feat he could have done alone his energy was draining too fast due to lack of rage, so really he should be lower than Grey Hulk but Grey i don't believe pulled of anything close to that.) Grey Hulk, and Professor Hulk(Samson). Left out Devil Hulk no real feats there. The Hulk with probably the best feats is Savage Hulk, but even savage Hulk, didn't have the power of the four Hulks above him. Grey Hulk had some up and down showings, but simply the fact that he could amp above class 100 made him more powerful than, Professor who only got weaker.

@heraldofganthet: I seriously fail to see, I really don't understand your arguement that the other gods somehow have to recognize them as "gods"? The Eternals were on the earth way before the Pantheon ever came to Earth. Before man had even formed religion, so why would they even care what they had to think? Then you are comparing them Eternals, Skyfather and the other Patheon gods have no real duty to the earth at all, but the Eternals are servants of the Celestials, which are above skyfathers on the hierarchy in marvel.

If you look in the Marvel handbook, you will see the Eternals other names, and when you look at those other names they are gods or mythical beings from other cultures. Jack Kirby stated they were gods, so I don't really understand your point. You want to talk the New Gods technology is so advance and different but you leave out the fact that Eternals use Celestial technology which isn't even understood by Pantheon gods or any beings earth. This is very apparent by a few things, 1. Apocalypse, has been on the earth for thousands of years and has studied the technology longer than anyone else and he still doesn't know exactly what it does. 2. Odin himself seemed afraid of it, when he warned thor to stay away from Apocalypse. It's stated that the Celestials themselves are a mix of cosmic /magical energy robots.. and that the Eternal interact with them with and without using the uni-mind. How more advance do you need to be?

#254 Posted by DaAwesome2 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: Yeah, I def put Grey Hulk above Hulk from Secret Wars in a head to head. Grey Hulk fought dirty and would probably play hurt and lure in Prof Hulk and then suprise him with an eye gouge or somethin' and then stomp him. That Banner Hulk from early 80's was green (no pun intended) when it came to fighting so he would fall for almost anything.

#255 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3610 posts) - - Show Bio

@daawesome2: Odin didn't even come on the rainbow bridge until he saw the other Asgardians gettin' beat down by Thanos, Surfer and Infinity Watch.

So that's what that was all about. Explains a lot, actually. By the way, love your username, bro. I just wish i'd thought of it first :)

@blacharrt1: We agree that the Eternals, especially after the Neil Gaiman run, are much older than previously thought. I never said, nor did I mean to imply that the Eternals are a weak species. They absolutely are NOT. I also never said that they have inferior technology. We agree that not only do they have access to Celestial Tech (probably the gold standard in the 616 Marvel U.), but Apocalypse, who is'nt even one of their number does as well. In fact, a friend of mine told me that there is a storyline going on where he (Apocalypse) is just kicking the snot and other bodily fluids out of a teenage Thor in Asgard . So much for home field advantage...

We agree that ancient man also worshipped The Eternals which led to great confusion between the citizens of Olympia, and the Olympians. We agree the Eternals are an advanced species. There is a lot of common ground here. Perhaps what I should've said was what has frustrated me about how they've been treated by Marvel through the years. When major storylines like Infinity War/Crusade, even Siege, WWH, or Age of Ultron, they're barely used if at all. They love their privacy, but what threatens the Earth poses a threat to them as well. Why are they (seemingly) sat on the bench all the time? Would'nt an entire race of super strong matter manipulators come in handy, Uni-Mind or not? I think so, but that's neither my fault nor yours. It's Marvels. DaAwesome2 said it best when he said that Orion vs Zuras or Thanos would be a good/better match up because strength-wise their are very few "Class 100" Eternals outside of those two (although with TK, nearly all Eternals can lift way more than their muscles can withstand).

I'm not attacking or running down the Eternals because i've too much respect for them and the visionary who made them possible. Perhaps Marvel should use these guys a LOT more than they currently do in comics and in animation to introduce them to a whole new generation of people who'll end up loving them as much as I have all these years.

#256 Edited by DaAwesome2 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't understand Maestro's durability either. Or the Hulk's in that Future Imperfect arc. A point blank laser pistol blast to the head would be enough to kill him? Well..according to Maestro..he told Prof Hulk when he was recovering from a broken neck that the blast should finish him. Also when Maestro got teleported back in time to when the Gamma bomb detonated. He got blown to bits. I don't know if they retconned it later as nowadays a Gamma bomb wouldn't do anything to Hulk. It might even make him stronger.

#257 Posted by KingBoltagon (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Orion wins.

#258 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: Something i would like to point out, about Apocalypse, he made a deal with the Celestials to use the technology they had, however the Celestials never told Apocalypse how to use it, it had to figure it out on his own. Which is why Apocalypse, when the Celestial came back to earth to collect on the deal that Apocalypse made to use their technology Apocalypse planned to have himself killed so they couldn't collect him, however he didn't realize that that the Celestials could simply revive him.

As far as the Marvel lack of use of the Eternals we agree on that, but it goes back to the Point you were trying to make about Orion, Eternals don't really like to mess in human affairs, same with inhumans, or children of the vault. The exception being Sersi, and maybe StarFox. Whom seem to like humans. But another similarity between the New Gods and Eternals. The Anti-Life equation, is pretty much the same concept that the Eternals can control primitive and sentient life with a simple command, and they have to obey. I saw in your last post you agree with a lot of the things i said. Well all the evidence adds to the Eternals being the equivalent of the New Gods, as i said, i would like you to take back the assertion that i was incorrect in saying that.

#259 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3610 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: I'm a reasonable man, and you've made a compelling case. All that's left to do now is for Marvel to start treating the Eternals with at least as much respect and reverence as DC treats the New Gods. In terms of their exposure [animation, comics, hell even the Silver Screen (i'd pay to see that)] and inter-universe anecdotal mention of at least their power, if not their exploits. I never thought of the ALE that way, but it could be that King Kirby simply took that Eternal telepathic aspect and just put his foot on the gas when he moved to DC (cause the ALE is WAY more powerful than that)! You seem to be a good dude (at least I think you're a dude), and we're probably gonna butt heads on occasion, but it's good to see a fellow lover of Jack Kirby's vision, no matter which comic universe it manifests itself in.

I say a full throated e-mail campaign to Marvel Comcs on this issue just might be in order, what do you think?

#260 Posted by SOG7dc (7497 posts) - - Show Bio

orion should astro-stomp

Online
#261 Posted by patrat18 (10153 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

orion should astro-stomp

#262 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (6750 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk.

#263 Edited by SOG7dc (7497 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#264 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (6088 posts) - - Show Bio

Orion

#265 Posted by Pipxeroth (500 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys

You Guys

Guys:

Here is a list of Hulk feats (http://marvel.wikia.com/Robert_Bruce_Banner_(Earth-616))

-Among his most amazing feats are supporting a falling 150 billion ton mountain using leverage[177]

-ripping through a bunker designed to withstand the explosion of many thousands of megatons in magnitude[178]

-eventually overpowering the Invisible Woman, the Thing and the Human Torch[179], matching the Scarlet Witch (prior to House of M) and Wonder Man, Iron Man and Vision, while the narration establishes that the Hulk's power is greater than their combined might[180]

-matching theSuper Adaptoid who had acquired strength and durability of a hundred heroes like Iron Man and the Vision[181](if the statement of the cover is not directly contradicted by the story, then it is correct)

-closing the doors to a nuclear core that Thor and the Thing together could not budge[135]

-reflecting Gladiator's ocular beams back into his eyes, and knocking him unconscious[182](before entering in the factory)

-knocking the Silver Surfer out with three blows[183](both were very weakened by the passage through the black hole)

-matching two Avengers teams during a prolonged period of time in spite of becoming gradually weaker due to a physical separation from Banner[184]

-almost breaking the East Coast and also threatening to break the entire planet by the emission of energy from his body[147]

--destroying the Crypto Man after he was boosted with physical strength superior to that of Thor [185]

--overpowering Thor[186]

--pushing two spheres of matter and antimatter apart[187]

--holding together the tectonic plates of a planet[188]

--overpowering a field of energy endowed with sufficient power to change the orbit of a planet[47]

--destroying a planet in Dark Dimension after clashing with Red She-Hulk[176]

--destroying an asteroid twice the size of the planet Earth with a single punch [189] (due mainly to his superior physical toughness and to an impulse produced by the contraction of his legs. Based on the elastic potential energy, the impulse's kinetic energy was provided by the contraction)

--overcoming a power-draining mechanism which contained much of the combined power of himself, Doctor Strange, the Silver Surfer and Namor [190],

--applying force to the space-time structure itself to prevent all theDefenders from being absorbed into a fissure [120](with the size of the singularity estimated in about seven feets according to the Schwarzschild radius, then it's mass and gravitational attraction, by the equivalence principle, is thus equivalent to approximately two hundred Earths),

--smashing adamantium[167][191],

--breaking up the own space-time continuum [87],

--ripping off a powerful device designed to fight against the Celestials[192](levelling down, if it could withstand power proportional to the Kubik's, many orders of magnitude inferior to the Celestials, that's already significant),

--overcoming Onslaught's enormous strength[131](which achieved at least Celestial level in raw power[193]. He could alter reality and use telekinesis on Celestial level to amplify his great strength. Firstly, the ability to warp reality is essentially the materialization of any potential. Potential is, by definition, what can become reality, and the capacity to modify reality basically concretes this function. Franklin was the primary responsible for the resurrection of Galactus, created a replica of Galactus, etc. Secondly, the alternate versions varies in intrinsic power. For example, the 616 Mad Jim Jaspers is more powerful than the Earth-238 Jaspers. Additionally,the Psi-Lord ranks below the 616 "kid" Franklin Richards in the energy manipulation official ratings. Third, Onslaught was neutralized because of Franklin's intervention, sometime after Onslaught's last evolution, in order to save the heroes. Franklin's interference implies he broke free from Onslaught's control, weakening him. Nate is potentially an entity, but he lacked the property to bend reality and has only planetary feats. Finally, as Onslaught could not evolve by himself, since utilized the Hulk for that finality, then it means the Hulk surpassed his strength potential).

--However, Hulk's greatest feat was to propagate concussive force through an infinite number of dimensions by the impact of the collision withIronclad[194] (entire dimensions, and not multiversal planets. First, the writer describes dimensions and where there are planets there are also dimensions, as every planet is directly vinculated to dimensions. Therefore to send concussive force to planets propitiates to transmit concussive energy to dimensions and their multitudes of astronomical entities. Secondly, there are countless dimensions without planets: Universes in the beginning of formation, universes where equal quantities of matter and antimatter were produced and generated only radiation, etc. Besides, there are literally infinite inter-branched alternate universes in the entire Omniverse. Therefore the postulate that suggests that only planets received the entire energy is probabilistically equal to zero. The force would encompass a strictly infinite number of dimensions with the volume of our observable universe, intensifying in the close proximity of the impact. Finally, the few planets shown were just examples of what occurred inside the dimensions. Anyway, the diffusion of raw energy to infinite planets would equate the dissemination of force through the volume of infinite observable universes. The same argument is applied for the premise that they were sub-sections of the main universe, just replacing the word "planet" for "sub-dimension" and the word "dimension" for "universe". It is important to notice that the U-Foes's powers were vastly augmented while on Earth, so that Vector repelled the reality itself and thus transported them to Crossroads[195]. Undoubtedly not all physical laws were operationally identical, but the propagation of energy was shared by all dimensions and the Crossroads)

--Thor even stated once that the Hulk could possibly be stronger than himself[196].

Don't forget when hulk reversed the planet's orbit, thereby pushing back and overpowering the electromagnetic force the sun puts on the earth. According to @dum529001"Hulk has the power to move a planet at baseline. The fact that the field strength needed to be increased is proof that Hulk was contesting that kind of power. Even so, Hulk showed power to overcome a planet's kinetic energy, which is better than overcoming the force it has while it's just sitting there in its static state. It takes 632 quadrillion 850 trillion megatons(6.3285*10^17) just to stop the earth's orbit. Hulk overpowered energy that could not only stop a planet's orbit but reverse it as well, which means Hulk was able to put out even more power than that."