Omnipotent Being vs Omniscience Being

#1 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

 
So? Time to speculate your opinions.

#2 Posted by crmidnight (720 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Say what?
#3 Posted by JediXMan (22968 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.
 
I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent.

#4 Posted by crmidnight (720 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
"In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent."

What about if you're impotent? Could you gain omnipontence? 
lol
#5 Posted by Sexy Merc (41965 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

It depends on how smart the omnipotent being is imo.

#6 Posted by TheSpiritStalker (1420 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@JediXMan:  yh you could probably convince the person to kill themselves. But I have to say they're equal
#7 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Being omnipotent means you'd have no weaknesses right? The omniscient guy might know everything but he doesn't have any way to beat the omnipotent being. 

#8 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@crmidnight said:
" @JediXMan said:
"In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent."
What about if you're impotent? Could you gain omnipontence? lol "
LMFAO!
#9 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Tonystarkbuttherapper said:
" Being omnipotent means you'd have no weaknesses right? The omniscient guy might know everything but he doesn't have any way to beat the omnipotent being.  "
But if he's Omniscience wouldn't he know how or if not already have the power to begin with?
#10 Posted by crmidnight (720 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit said:
" @crmidnight said:
" @JediXMan said:
"In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent."
What about if you're impotent? Could you gain omnipontence? lol "
LMFAO! "

LOL, I made myself LOL with that one. XD
#11 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit:  The way I see this battle the omniscient guy is only omniscient so he doesn't have any other powers or abilities. He knows everything but what good will that do you against someone that can't be defeated?
#12 Edited by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Tonystarkbuttherapper said:

" @Cypher's Gambit:  The way I see this battle the omniscient guy is only omniscient so he doesn't have any other powers or abilities. He knows everything but what good will that do you against someone that can't be defeated? "

That's true, but look at it through this perspective. the omnipotent being destroys the universe, right. And then the Omniscience being says, "I know how you did that" and preforms that same thing.
#13 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

I just don't see how he would be able to do it. I could know how much force I need to apply to lift a wrecking ball with my bare hands but I'd never be able to do it. If his only ability is omniscience he wouldn't be able to duplicate something done by an omnipotent being.

#14 Posted by ckal (1090 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent. "
I don't think knowing how to defeat someone is enough if you are not capable of performing the action. To bring down an omnipotent being, you must surely be omnipotent yourself.
 
Omniscience just refers to knowing everything possible. It doesn't mean that you are also extremely powerful.
#15 Posted by JediXMan (22968 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@ckal said:
" @JediXMan said:
" In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent. "
I don't think knowing how to defeat someone is enough if you are not capable of performing the action. To bring down an omnipotent being, you must surely be omnipotent yourself.  Omniscience just refers to knowing everything possible. It doesn't mean that you are also extremely powerful. "
A mind can be a powerful thing. He could always trick someone into committing suicide. 
 
In Red Son, it was said Lex Luthor was capable of convincing someone like Superman to kill themselves within a few minutes. Neither are omniscient or omnipotent, but it's a good comparison.
#16 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Tonystarkbuttherapper said:
" I just don't see how he would be able to do it. I could know how much force I need to apply to lift a wrecking ball with my bare hands but I'd never be able to do it. If his only ability is omniscience he wouldn't be able to duplicate something done by an omnipotent being. "
Oh I know what you're saying now, but this is just not about scientific knowledge and wisdom. It's also about Mind over Matter and Existence. So if one is all knowing how everything works in an existence, then he should have the power to use its mind to alter it.
#17 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Eh we have different ideas on this then. For me someone who knows all wouldn't be able to alter the world around him if omniscience is his only power. Hhe wouldn't be able to do a thing except like JediXMan said convince the omnipotent being to commit suicide (if he isn't blinked out of existence in an instant), but that depends on the omnipotent.

#18 Posted by ckal (1090 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

" @ckal said:

" @JediXMan said:
" In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent. "
I don't think knowing how to defeat someone is enough if you are not capable of performing the action. To bring down an omnipotent being, you must surely be omnipotent yourself.  Omniscience just refers to knowing everything possible. It doesn't mean that you are also extremely powerful. "
A mind can be a powerful thing. He could always trick someone into committing suicide.   In Red Son, it was said Lex Luthor was capable of convincing someone like Superman to kill themselves within a few minutes. Neither are omniscient or omnipotent, but it's a good comparison. "
Being omniscient doesn't have anything to do with telepathic ability. I realize minds can be powerful things, but omniscience purely refers to just having complete wisdom and knowledge of everything. Unless you are trying to make an argument than an omniscient being can use its infinite wisdom and knowledge to try to talk someone into killing themselves, but not telepathically, IMO I think that is a huge stretch, and likely not the case at all. Since it is pretty clear (to me at least) omniscience only refers to simply knowing everything. Here are some definitions to clear it up:  
 
Definitions of omniscient on the Web:
#19 Posted by JediXMan (22968 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@ckal: 
 
Show me where I ever mentioned telepathy. It was said Lex (a human) was smart enough to actually convince (with words) someone like Superman to commit suicide.
 
I know full well what omniscience means. Thanks.
#20 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9148 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Just because you can see something coming doesn't  mean you can stop it or get out of the way. I say the Omnipotent being wins.

#21 Posted by JediXMan (22968 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@OmegaDynasty said:
" Just because you can see something coming doesn't  mean you can stop it or get out of the way. I say the Omnipotent being wins. "
Well, in a straight fight this would be true. But I'd assume the omniscient one would utilize prep.
#22 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@OmegaDynasty said:
" Just because you can see something coming doesn't  mean you can stop it or get out of the way. I say the Omnipotent being wins. "
Actually, If the Omnipotent fires a blast towards the Omniscient being, but the Omniscient being "KNOWS" that it will not harm him, then the Omniscience being could be more of a threat.
#23 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

The Omniscient could tell the Omnipotent that the Omnipotent will loose. So in a logical sense. Omniscience wins.

#24 Edited by ckal (1090 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@JediXMan:  Didn't mean to offend, but I may have come off heavy handed. You didn't say telepathy but I could have interpreted what you said incorrectly.
 

He could always trick someone into committing suicide. 

By 'tricking' I thought you meant via telepathy.  My apologies.
 
On another note, I wasn't aware that this had happened actually and I am very surprised by it really. Was Superman in an emotionally compromised state? What exactly did he do/say to Superman? 
 
I guess you could say since this being is omniscient, it would know how to use persuasion, trickery, etc effectively. The only way I see it being able to convince the omnipotent being to kill itself by persuading it is to tell it that it is too powerful and everything around it will cease to exist or something. And only if this omnipotent has ties or feelings to the current reality and would sacrifice itself to protect it, would I see this happeneing. Also, this omnipotent being may be smart enough to not be tricked as well.
#25 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit: You're mixing it up with reality warping I think. If the omnipotent shoots a blast at the omniscient being he'll get killed unless the omnipotent misses (which being omnipotent he'd have to miss on purpose). The omniscient can't just say "oh he'll miss" and then that's what happens. It's sort of like Dr. Manhattan, he knows everything that will happen but is as much as slave to it as anyone else. Of course unlike Manhattan an omniscinet could alter events but in a fight against an omniscient opponent there's not much he could do.
 
Hopefully that didn't come out as confusing as I think it did.
#26 Edited by RetolledTruth (941 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @OmegaDynasty said:
" Just because you can see something coming doesn't  mean you can stop it or get out of the way. I say the Omnipotent being wins. "
Well, in a straight fight this would be true. But I'd assume the omniscient one would utilize prep. "

To me this is a question of faulty logic
 
 
If someone is omniscient they would know everything there is to know, that includes knowing how to be omnipotent...Because in order to be omnipotent- you need to posses knowledge of how to do so...even if its latent that knowledge still exist. So it would be attributed to that being of omnicient quality
 
Omnipotent- you'll have the power to bring all knowledge into your being
 
it's a stalemate...no two beings can share these...or they'd be one in the same
 
..thoughts
#27 Posted by ckal (1090 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@RetolledTruth: 

 If someone is omniscient they would know everything there is to know, that includes knowing how to be omnipotent...Because in order to be omnipotent- you need to posses knowledge of how to do so...even if its latent that knowledge still exist. So it would be attributed to that being of omnicient quality

Even if an omniscient being would know how to become omnipotent, it doesn't mean they have the means to do so.  I also don't think you need to know how to be omniscient to be an omnipotent being. It just seems like something that just happens, something preordained.  I'm not even sure if it makes sense that there is a way to know how to become omnipotent (unless you are talking about something like the Heart of the Universe). Technically speaking, a strictly omniscient being has no powers other than infinite knowledge.
 
I don't know of any strictly omniscient beings off the top of my head, and I'm not sure that there are any. Although, omniscience seems to be accompanied by great power as well most of the time.
 
I might have to think about and debate about this more, but I'll probably just give myself a headache doing it since it seems the more you look into it, the more possibilities arise.
#28 Posted by difficlus (10672 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Tie, Both are as powerful 
AN all Knowing being would know how to make themselves omnipotent or how to defeat an omnipotent being. 
An All Powerful being would be able to make themselves all knowing 
:) 

#29 Posted by kagetaicho (1932 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

This is probably literally a question that can only be answered by an omnipotent or omniscient being. How could mortal insignificant minds comprehend such concepts in full?

#30 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@difficlus:  An all powerful being might be able to make himself all knowing, but I doubt an all knowing being would be able to make themselves all powerful. Just because you know how to reach the speed of light doesn't mean you can do it.
#31 Posted by difficlus (10672 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Tonystarkbuttherapper said:
" @difficlus:  An all powerful being might be able to make himself all knowing, but I doubt an all knowing being would be able to make themselves all powerful. Just because you know how to reach the speed of light doesn't mean you can do it. "
Of course it does, you knowing anything, including how to make yourself be able to go faster than light. Anything you don't know doesn't exist. SO if a way exists an all the universe it can be thus done.  
 
An example of this is sylar in Heroes, he never had powers but he gained powers by understanding how someone's powers worked and how to replicate them in his body...
#32 Posted by difficlus (10672 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@RetolledTruth said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @OmegaDynasty said:
" Just because you can see something coming doesn't  mean you can stop it or get out of the way. I say the Omnipotent being wins. "
Well, in a straight fight this would be true. But I'd assume the omniscient one would utilize prep. "
To me this is a question of faulty logic   If someone is omniscient they would know everything there is to know, that includes knowing how to be omnipotent...Because in order to be omnipotent- you need to posses knowledge of how to do so...even if its latent that knowledge still exist. So it would be attributed to that being of omnicient quality  Omnipotent- you'll have the power to bring all knowledge into your being  it's a stalemate...no two beings can share these...or they'd be one in the same  ..thoughts "
I agree with this too...
#33 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

You can't make yourself do something you're not physically capable of doing. The hypothetical person we're talking about is strictly omniscient and doesn't have any other abilities. He could say "Oh I know that to reach the speed of light all I need to do is apply infinite energy" and then he'll twiddle his thumbs because he has no means of applying infinite energy because he has no powers. I could know everything I would need to give myself the strength of a bear but if its impossible I wouldn't be able to do a thing.

#34 Posted by RetolledTruth (941 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Tonystarkbuttherapper said:
" You can't make yourself do something you're not physically capable of doing. The hypothetical person we're talking about is strictly omniscient and doesn't have any other abilities. He could say "Oh I know that to reach the speed of light all I need to do is apply infinite energy" and then he'll twiddle his thumbs because he has no means of applying infinite energy because he has no powers. I could know everything I would need to give myself the strength of a bear but if its impossible I wouldn't be able to do a thing. "
To know every thing is to know how to do something...i'm not talking having had read a instruction manual
 
It's like this...you sub consciuosly have the power to make your heart beat...You know subconsciusly how to make your heart beat...
it is in you nature to do these things solely because you know them...Same with an Omniscient...he does them because he knows how...
 
how as in ...I can do this
 
it is in the nature of all knowing to be omnipotent
 
an omniscient being can change his knowledge...of course the way he views it....
 
knowing in advance the battle would happen...
 
This is not one sided...and is actually faulty
 
 
he knows how to move his being into action....the knowledge is the means
#35 Posted by Tonystarkbuttherapper (295 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

To know everything doesn't mean you can alter the laws of physics. You can know something is impossible for you to do and that's it.

#36 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

LOL I created such a brain teaser lol. Are there any mods that would like to share their thoughts with us?

#37 Posted by difficlus (10672 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Tonystarkbuttherapper said:
" To know everything doesn't mean you can alter the laws of physics. You can know something is impossible for you to do and that's it. "
to know everything means you also know how to make yourself do anything...lol 
Dude don't limit omniscience to human boundaries, this means you know all that there is to know about everything and anything.
#38 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

LOL We are all twisted up in here. What does Eminem say? "This is what happens when a tornado hits a volcano"?

#39 Posted by lagoon_boy (10895 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
This thread has been done before, please use the search function. Its right there, I don't know why it's so hard to see it.
#40 Posted by Perfect Cell (3469 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

They are both of One.

#41 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7224 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit said:
" LOL I created such a brain teaser lol. Are there any mods that would like to share their thoughts with us? "
...its not a brain teaser at all.  Knowing everything doesn't help much against a guy that can do anything.  All that knowledge will do is tell you that you cannot win.
#42 Edited by Formidable (200 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Omnipotence wins.
Omnipotence means that you are powerful in every way conceivable including intellect, essentially granting you omniscience by default.

#43 Posted by Hellos (8778 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

 
The omnipotent guy just destroy's all of existence.

#44 Edited by Lance Bastro (4744 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

omnipotent is all powerful and power is not knowledge. take a look at beyonder. also, dr. doom may not be omniscient, but his ability to know a lot more than everyone else in the roster of the secret war arc gave him the ability to take the powers of the omnipotent. 

#45 Posted by beatboks1 (4899 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent. "
or if not you have enough brains not to fight or if you have to to trick someone else into doing the fighting. The Phantom Stranger is omniscient, he's considered vastly powerful by anyone who's ever read a comic and yet he's never actually done anything directly himself. He always advises others on how to do things. Darksied considered him impotent power wise in Legends and yet his advise is what allowed the heroes to eventually win. How many times has Reed Richards, Bruce Wayne or the Doctor beaten a being, race or occurrence vastly superior in power with nothing but knowledge. They I might add are far from omniscient, and yet most comic readers accept that as fact. Reed has no way of beating Galactus' power and yet he has.
#46 Posted by beatboks1 (4899 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@Formidable said:
" Omnipotence wins. Omnipotence means that you are powerful in every way conceivable including intellect, essentially granting you omniscience by default. "
actually it simply infinite power, nothing whatsoever to do with knowledge. There are many characters who've been omnipotent without being all that knowledgeable at all.
#47 Posted by lagoon_boy (10895 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio
@beatboks1 said:
" @JediXMan said:
" In theory, if you're omnipotent, you could gain omniscience. But it doesn't seem to work like that.  I say omniscience. If you're all knowing, then you'll know how to defeat one who is omnipotent. "
or if not you have enough brains not to fight or if you have to to trick someone else into doing the fighting. The Phantom Stranger is omniscient, he's considered vastly powerful by anyone who's ever read a comic and yet he's never actually done anything directly himself. He always advises others on how to do things. Darksied considered him impotent power wise in Legends and yet his advise is what allowed the heroes to eventually win. How many times has Reed Richards, Bruce Wayne or the Doctor beaten a being, race or occurrence vastly superior in power with nothing but knowledge. They I might add are far from omniscient, and yet most comic readers accept that as fact. Reed has no way of beating Galactus' power and yet he has. "
Wow, very good explanations.
#48 Posted by Deadcool (6764 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Omniscience has a chance with prep time.
 But Omnipotent mean Almighty, then there is no weakness...

#49 Posted by Lance Bastro (4744 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

 omnipotent is all powerful and power is not knowledge. take a look at beyonder. also, dr. doom may not be omniscient, but his ability to know a lot more than everyone else in the roster of the secret war arc gave him the ability to take the powers of the omnipotent.     

#50 Posted by Backflip (1945 posts) - 2 years, 6 months ago - Show Bio

Well, the current Sage is omniscient. But the Living Tribunal would destroy her with ease. In general, I think that Omnipotent beings will always beat those who're soley Omniscient

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