Old Republic Jedi vs Rise of the Empire Era Jedi vs New Jedi Order Jedi

VS

VS

Rules

• Fight takes place in the Jundland Wastes of Tatooine
• Morals off
• Full teamwork is assumed
• Standard equipment
• Prime versions

@shootingnova: Say...you got a bald person for each era on the different teams! Intentional?

@wolfrazer: Not really. I also have two humans and an alien on each team.

Anyway, callouts: @wollfmyth@darthant66@dccomicsrule2011@i_like_swords @thevivas@juiceboks@burnface

@darkdefender: lol

EDIT: nvm

@shootingnova: You disappoint me! But ok.

between team 2 and team 3

All the teams seem to have a good shot, to me. Team 1's the strongest in the Force, team 3's the most unorthodox, and team 2's probably the most balanced.

Team 2

And some reasons would be nice.

Too many variables.

Alright, then. Let's assume that:

1. Vrook vs Qui-Gon vs Corran

2. Vodo vs Plo vs Saba

3. Satele vs Obi-Wan vs Mara

@shootingnova: Vodo solos, then goes onto wreck Dooku for the lulz.

COME AT ME!

@brightsteel: *gets out the fly swat*

No, they all start on flat ground. But they can run to find higher ground if they'd like.

@shootingnova: Pssh, hardly a fly. ;)

@brightsteel: Mmm, that's right. Next time I'll spray Mortein over the thread and you cockroaches won't be able to get inside.

Alright, let's get serious, people.

@shootingnova: You must be thinking of Erkan when you say that, I'm more like a plague of locust. ;)

Anyways, I figure that Qui-Gon should be able to win the first one, going by what I know of the other two. Contending with Maul for a decent period, strikes me as more impressive than anything Horn and Vrook have done. Though my knowledge of those two are admittedly shit.

I think round two would come down to Vodo or Saba, with maybe Vodo taking the edge. He's physically superior to the other two (more or less matching Kun physically for a decent period of time), and strikes me as more skilled, due to stalemating Sith Lord Kun at his prime before the saberstaff was brought out.

Obi-Wan should take the third round. :catprone

Morals off favors the NJO team by a noticeable margin. I can't type a full response at the moment, but barring Vodo for the TOR team they're more or less outgunned by the NJO team and would lose to the PT team as well. I'd suggest giving them guys like Aryn Leneer, Barsen'thor, or someone on that tier than an old man and Satele.

In the force, most definitely. No disagreement there

Lightsaber skill:

TOR: Vrook is a master of all lightsaber forms, and in terms of technical skill the most versed in lightsaber combat. Satele has briefly exchanged blades with Darth Baras, fought Darth Malgus and lost on two occasions, fought evenly with Darth Mekhis, and blitzed Sith warriors. Vodo is the MVP of the team in terms of feats and overall skill as he's fought evenly with a pre-Prime Exar Kun, and even held his own against the Dark lord prior to being overwhelmed by his strength. They're admittedly the least skilled with Vrook not having beaten anyone of note in a duel, Satele having been taken down by dedicated Power duelists, and Vodo being unable to carry the slack of his team. I'd give Vodo a majority over Plo, Corran, Qui Gon, and at least a stalemate against Mara. But he'd be unable to break Kenobi's defense, would have his stick broken in a duel with Saba, and would eventually tire or get stabbed due to the relentlessness of Mara. Vrook's knowledge of lightsaber skill would probably hold off Qui Gon or Corran in a duel, but he lacks any showings to suggest he'd beat anyone on any of the other teams 1 vs. 1. Satele has decent physical feats being able to knock back Malgus a few times, but this really isn't any different than Qui Gon staggering Maul with a hit, Mara breaking Nom Anor's bones/snapping necks of soldiers, and Saba's physicals are honestly on another level given her showing against the Abeloth avatar. She lacks the skill to suggest she could beat any of the Jedi rapidly enough, and I'm honestly unsure if she could even take any of the other's in pure lightsaber/h2h skill. Suffice to say the TOR team is the weakest in terms of skill, and would lose to any of the others for a majority

PT: Qui Gon has accolades calling him among the greatest Swordsmen produced by the Jedi order, he's held his own against Maul, though he was admittedly outclassed, and humbled Anoon Bondara in a duel (Anoon being another of the Jedi's most skilled swordsmen)/, and in terms of feats could best any of the TOR duelists barring Vodo and at likely take on Corran. His main weakness is stamina, but he would be a tough match for any of the NJO duelists though I don't see him taking a majority against Saba or Mara. Obi Wan is the strongest duelist on the field having fought evenly with a hindered Anakin, fought evenly/beaten Asajj Ventress, fought both Maul brothers at once, fought evenly with Maul, among many other noteworthy feats and his Soresu is highly suited against the relentless offense of a morals off Mara/and he has the durability to suggest he'd at least fend off Saba. The main Achilles heel of the PT team being Plo is poorly suited in fighting either Jedi, and has been taken out by martial strikes from Ventress and incapacitated by Savage's strikes/snatching his mask. Saba is far faster, more skilled, physically more powerful, and could very likely dismember or seriously harm him with a strike in a duel- given his showings against Ventress and Savage a bloodlusted Mara also will cause some damage with her offense and a strike from her as well would seriously offset Plo. Given that Kenobi would be pressed by either female Jedi, Corran is more or less dead even with Qui Gon in terms of skill (fighting evenly with Mara in the Vong war, fighting through scores of Lost tribe Sith for days, defeated high tier Vong like Shedao Shai, defeating his son Valin Horn), he's easily the most prone to being taken out and once he's gone Qui Gon or Kenobi get destroyed 2 vs 1.

NJO:

Saba with Jedi morals being absent was dismembering Lost tribe Sith fighting alongside Ben underneath the Jedi temple, has claws that cut through One Sith, cut cut through Abeloth's Skin (Abeloth has withstood the full Arsenal of Boba fett, tanked Cannon fire with no visible damage, and has survived the explosion of a massive base), and for skill has defeated Kenth Hamner, Leia Organa Solo, defeated Welk, bested Corran in spars, and was regarded as a challenge by Darth Caedus in a fight. Combining her skill with her raw physicals she's the most brutal offensive member of her team, and with physical power than can literally dismember a normal human the only duelist from any team that can fend her off is Obi Wan. I'd give her a majority over any of the duelists given her raw physical strength combined with skill that rivals any of the PT Jedi duelists, and she's inherently more skilled than either Satele, Vrook, and has enough power to shatter Vodo's stick (his best strength feats being briefly holding off Exar/shattering stone). She has enough ferocity to pressure Kenobi into exerting his full defensive capabilities, and Mara Jade Skywalker herself adds even greater offensive abilities to the NJO Team. Mara with her morals off having been a direct challenge to Darth Caedus in a lightsaber duel in the cramped confines of a tunnel (restricting his ability to use the force), having defeated Lumiya, fought through scores of Yuuzhan Vong warriors in the Final battle of Coruscant The Unifying force), defeated Yomin Carr, defeated Nom Anor, and is overall the 2nd most skilled in terms of feats on her team. Given her purely offensive style, durability, and overall relentlessness she'd beat any of the TOR duelists after a tough fight (with Vodo being the closest), and she could break Plo's bones or seriously harm him with a strike, she could also pressure Kenobi onto the defensive. Corran at his best is an equal to Plo or Qui Gon in skill, and could defeat anyone on the TOR team in a duel barring Vodo.

Overall (TLDR): The NJO team offer the greatest mix of skill, speed, durability, and strength to best either team.

------------

Force abilities:

TOR: Vodo really precious few force feat at his disposal, he's telepathically reached to Exar across the galaxy, and is capable of powerful esoteric Lightside abilities such as Force Light/Force sever in the company of other Jedi. Force Sever being a wildcard but most likely completely inapplicable given the norm of more commonplace abilities of telekinesis, as of which Vodo is woefully inadequate in terms of feats. Vrook has utilized telekinetic blasts on multiple Jedi masters, kept the Exile in stasis, and Satele is easily the MVP of the TOR team being capable of exploding massive doors, imploding/crushing/putting into stasis Hex droids (hex droids are immensely durable being capable of withstanding lava, missile strikes, blaster bolts), she could conceivably Oneshot Corran Horn, cause immense damage/Ragdoll Obi Wan, or pressure the force barriers of the NJO Team. She's one of the most powerful telekinetics on the field, but Vodo in terms of combat applicable powers relies on his other teammates for overall effectiveness and he just doesn't seem to stack up with anyone but maybe Qui Gon. Satele's telekinesis could probably kill any of the PT Jedi, and Vrook's force stasis would probably affect Corran or Qui Gon. On another note Vrook is going to get tooled by Saba's telekinesis, Mara can blast Vodo around with the force, and Satele would have to act rapidly to kill other opponents to prevent the balance to shift to either opposing team:

PT: Plo's telepathy is somewhat of a wildcard, though Vodo could probably withstand it and a force Meld from the NJO team would make it all but useless. Telekinetically he's blasted back Asajj Ventress/collapsed a cave- and has used Alter environment to control winds as well as has applications of Force healing which may be useful in combat. Qui Gon himself has a powerful connection to the Living force, but really has few combat applicable powers to suggest he'd be of much harm with Jedi morals off. He can probably blast back Corran, and being familiar with Plo has collapsed a massive cave as well. But unless they synchronize their telekinetic efforts (which have thus far as mentioned only collapse a cave), the PT team is really depending mainly on Kenobi who has his own swathe of great Telekinetic showings but has been shown to be immensely weak in terms of resisting force attacks. Kenobi has skill with force healing, and easily the best telekinetic feats among the Jedi of this team. He's imploded Durge, lifted massive boulders in TCW, tore down a large block of Machinery, collapsed a massive tree, created a massive wave with telekinesis,crushed droids, with the aid of Judd telekinetically supported massive blast Doors, as well as deflected telekinetic blasts from a hindered Anakin, flamethrowers, and bullets. His main weakness as mentioned being constant examples of being choked by Ventress, Savage Opress, Count Dooku, Darth Maul, and even Anakin. He could very easily kill Corran, knock Vrook around, but he'd immediately be taken out by Satele, Mara, or Saba. Unfortunately, given Kenobi's showings of being constantly taken out by other force users, Qui Gon's lack of any real power feats, and Plo's inferiority to the others the PT team stands the least likely in winning force/all out

NJO: One of the main edges the NJO team have over the PT team or the TOR team is the use of Battle meld to bolster their offensive/defensive capabiltiies. Meld enables them to aid their teammates in bolstering their resolve, makes them faster, and generall more combat ready as shown in the Vong War/Swarm wars. Saba and Mara could use it to dispel any sort of telepathic attacks, amplify their resolves (and this would make them more determined in force combat), and overall the NJO team has just shown more teamwork. Mara and Saba have bolstered each other in multiple conflicts, and Mara's Force healing has been used Mid combat to repel poisons/and is easily the most combat applicable in all of the teams. Saba's telekinetic feats are probably the best among the NJO team as she has manipulated massive Sekotan airships alongside Jacen, telekinetically exploded a Durasteel door while hindered by a Darkside nexus/collapsed the surrounding walls around it, exerted telekinetic control over Kenth Hamner (Hamner can collapse massive staircases), pushed aside portions of a wall, and with her morals off will likely dominate Kenobi, Qu Gon Jinn, Vrook, and knock around Vodo or Plo. Corran's own telepathic attacks are a wildcard but Kenobi hasn't shown any defense against Force illusions, neither has Vrook, though they'll likely be ineffective against the likes of Vodo or Plo. Assuming Plo is dumb enough to use electric judgement, Corran can absorb it and also cause illusions that could put off the PT team. Mara likewise has demonstrated force barriers powerful enough to withstand explosions of Kilik assassins, repel rubble/travel hundreds of meters, and with a combined meld would be amped alongside her team. Overall, with Saba's durability, a healing factor from Saba/Mara, and better showings of team work with meld, the NJO team can take the PT team out in terms of force power, and are overall more varied in their powers than the TOR team

Respect threads (for more info)

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/saba-sebatyne-respect-thread/99694/

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/mara-jade-skywalker-respect-thread/100306/

Honestly, Team 3 wins.

@burnface: Your effort is obviously to be commended, but at the risk of asking you to type up more, what is your opinion on the match-ups I've listed above? For reference, here they are:

1. Vrook vs Qui-Gon vs Corran

2. Vodo vs Plo vs Saba

3. Satele vs Obi-Wan vs Mara

Also, two questions. When has Vrook Force blasted multiple Jedi Masters (in the comics?), and if I recall correctly, Kenth was the one who appeared to be Saba's telekinetic superior, with him pushing Saba several times in their duel. Saba has only held on to him at the end when he fell off the balcony and he didn't seem to be offering resistance (he was focused on throwing the saber).

1. A plague of flies, sure.

2. Not necessarily. Qui-Gon's probably worst off in the Force, provided that Corran is able to make some sort of use of his Tutaminis or telepathic abilities.

3. Yeah, Vodo isn't physically superior to Saba at all. Saba outclasses him in every physical department, and she's at least pretty damn close to him in skill, if not his better.

4. Why?

@shootingnova:

3. Yeah, Vodo isn't physically superior to Saba at all. Saba outclasses him in every physical department, and she's at least pretty damn close to him in skill, if not his better.

THIS POINT NOVA, IT MAKES ME LAUGH.

Vodo is most certainly stronger physically, and has comparable speed.

4. Why?

He's Obi-Wan Kenboi.

@brightsteel: Please inform me of how Vodo is stronger than somebody who rips off Abeloth's head (Abeloth's avatar having durability feats as mentioned above by Burnface), or who punches out Abeloth's teeth (which were powerful enough to shred blast armor) within jaws wide enough to bite off a rancor's head.

Vodo is only comparable in speed at best, and he doesn't even register next to Saba in durability. As I said, how is Vodo physically superior?

@shootingnova:

@shootingnova: Physically contending with Kun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything Saba's done.

IT'S A FACT, POSITRONS DON'T REACT LIKE THAT.

@shootingnova:Ignore Bright. He likes to go on trolling sprees every now and then.

@wollfmyth: How is Plo more skilled than Saba who is superior to Corran, Kenth, Ben, Leia, and was considered a threat by Caedus (unlike Katarn she has the feats to back it up). Plo was absolutely trounced by Savage who has comparable physicals to Saba, and has multiple times shown weakness to physical attacks. She's also faster than he is.

1. Not sure why Vrook is getting discounted so quickly, since he boasts the strongest Force Powers (offensively in TK/Stasis & defensively in Heal and other powers), and is a comparable duelist to either (with a pretty nice advantage against Qui-Gon in being a high-level master of Ataru). But again, any of them could feasibly win.

2. I really doubt she's less skilled than Plo. Agreed with the rest, but would she necessarily fare the best in fighting two opponents? Saba is the brawly type, which typically is a nice trait to have in a free-for-all, but she's always struck me as someone who fares best against a single opponent. She also seems the most susceptible to Force Powers despite being rather powerful herself (based on both her fight against Kenth and also that she likely uses Juyo, which leaves you vulnerable to Force attack). I'd agree that Saba takes either on their own, but with three combatants any of them could win. I think I'll side with you in saying that Saba is the most likely victor, though.

3. Agreed with the elements you listed, but her style is again focused more on facing one opponent. Her unorthodox brawling techniques are bound to be trouble for both of her opponents, but the way she fights doesn't seem to work very well against multiple opponents of a similar class. By contrast, Obi-Wan's Soresu is pretty good for holding them off (in sabers, anyway), but he's easily the least powerful and could be thrown around. Satele has a chance if she plays it smart and lets the other two fight the most where she can simply sit back and fight with her powers. I'm also going to submit that Mara/Obi-Wan could be troubled by her inclusion of telepathic attacks mid-duel, which in of itself is pretty unorthodox. Provided that that isn't the case, though, I would agree with you on Mara winning, if only because of her balance, unorthodoxy and sheer resiliency, though it would be an absolutely brutal fight.

@burnface:

How is Plo more skilled than Saba who is superior to Corran, Kenth, Ben, Leia,

She only stalemated Corran. And Plo being ranked alongside Mace Windu by Darth Maul is easily on par/above being superior to Ben or Leia.

and was considered a threat by Caedus

So was Katarn, who Caedus trounced even though Kyle had aid. Caedus' opinion is rather, what's the word? Stupid, most of the time.

(unlike Katarn she has the feats to back it up).

Feats like?

Plo was absolutely trounced by Savage who has comparable physicals to Saba,

If by trounced you mean held his own for a good period of time, and only lost because Savage ripped off his mask, then yes.

and has multiple times shown weakness to physical attacks.

When? The guy kept fighting after Savage kicked him, and only got pushed back by Asajj because she kicked him in a broken arm, which is bound to hurt.

She's also faster than he is.

Huzzah for Saba. Not that I question her winning. I question her surpassing Plo in skill.

@burnface: Fair enough.

@shootingnova: Not responding to you... You always confuse my head in your threads because you want me to consider every team equal, and I wind up shouting at the sky and questioning the meaning of life.

@wollfmyth:

She only stalemated Corran. And Plo being ranked alongside Mace Windu by Darth Maul is easily on par/above being superior to Ben or Leia.

We know that it's not true, though, since duelists noticeably inferior to Mace have at least rivaled Plo. With regards to feats, Plo basically only has his showings against Savage/Ventress, and there's no reason why Saba wouldn't fare at least as well, even if we're only considering skill.

If by trounced you mean held his own for a good period of time, and only lost because Savage ripped off his mask, then yes.

To be fair, with Saba's integration of clawing at her opponents in her fights, there's a good chance that this will happen, too.

@shootingnova: I'll just concede. Debating you on these threads always ends badly for me :/

On a more serious note, I just think you weren't being fair in the first round. I more or less agree with your other two analyzes, but I added on a bunch of food for thought. I wouldn't mind if you ignored my responses to the last two rounds.

Kenobi's weakness against force attacks is kind of a massive gaping hole though, especially when by reasoning Mara can at the very least withstand an initial telekinetic attack from Satele. With regards to Satele, unless something has changed from Fatal Alliance to Shadow of Revan, seemed to me to immediately go for lightsaber combat. Obviously she can't compete with either of the duelists in terms of skill or feats, so in my honest opinion her skill gap really is only slightly less noticeable than Kenobi's inferiority to either in power. Mara in her duel with Caedus was exchanging telekinetic attacks with him, so even if Kenobi's Soresu inevitably holds off her offense she's going to weaken him with her TK attacks repeated in succession.

@burnface:

When was he ranked close to Mace?

When Maul considered both some of the greatest warriors of the Jedi Order and perhaps the only ones that could challenge him.

The context was him fighting her on his own when they were boarding the Anakin Solo without help from a team. It's Caedus musing she was a challenge without aid and on an individual basis.

It was similar for Katarn. He only noted Katarn would be a threat to him out of the strike team, so that's also on an individual basis, and Katarn still got trounced.

Everything I listed, whereas, Kyle has only beaten Fodder Jedi with aid of Qu Rahn,

You mean Dark Jedi? One of which was compared to Vader himself. And Qu Rahn just told him who they were and some of their tactics, he didn't actually aid him in any appreciable way. Plus, he also defeated Desann on a Dark Side Nexus and Desann held out against Luke pretty well.

killed Vong, and lost to Caedus in spite of having help

I question if Saba would fare any better.

Losing in spite of having aid from clones, really doesn't help his cause.

Clones Savage dispatched with a hand gesture before the fight even actually began.

And he also lost to Ventress who doesn't even register compared to Saba in physicals.

He still managed to disarm Asajj(who's a more skilled duelist than Sebatyne). And Saba and Savage are more or less comparable in physicals and Plo had no problem fending him off for the majority fo the fight.

He was also being driven back by her and had to flee by distracting her with explosives,

A good feat for Asajj, really.

given his performance against Savage I don't see him respond well to Saba's offense.

He held off Savage fine until he got his masked ripped off.

Saba can tear through hides that can withstand Boba fett's full arsenal, what has Plo done to suggest he can withstand that sort of physical strength

Withstood Savage Opress' physical attacks. He has nothing of worth noting on his own, but comparing to how he did against someone that rivals Saba in physicals I doubt she'll overwhelm with strength alone.

Apart from losing to Ventress and Savage, and accolades that could just as easily fit Saba, Plo has nothing to suggest he is more skilled

The fact that he can hold off two duelists above Saba's own skill range is quite honestly enough to suggest comparable/equal skill.

@burnface:

A lot of what is listed in that thread is simply entries regarding the powers he knows, obviously he can use them and by inference he's quite powerful if he can place The Exile into stasis. But in terms of feats he's got excellent technical skill, but very little to suggest he can beat a guy who can spend days in the Jedi temple fighting through scores of Sith, nearly defeat NJO Mara Jade Skywalker in a sparring match, and beat Shedao Shai. Vrook's got some excellent force abilities but I just don't think he'd opt for that given his affinity for lightsaber combat, and unless he was pressed severely. Again, this match out of all of them probably goes either way- and I have no idea who wins it first.

Based on what would Vrook opt to duel them, and we do know that when he gets pressured, he resorts to the Force (ala TK wave that knocked down the Exile's party after he began to lose). With regards to actual skill, Kavar was a legendary swordsman in an era where Jedi were particularly notable as warriors, and Vrook was his superior. I'd say that's enough to compete with his opponents (especially Qui-Gon, since Vrook knows his form inside out), and with his Force Powers, he very much has a chance to win.

Plo really has nothing in the force or telekinetic feats to suggest she can harm her though, and given her overall bloodlust/offense I literally don't think a duel between her and Plo would last more than a second. Kenth pushing her a few times in order to keep her from opening the Hangar doors of the Jedi temple was just that, and Plo's got no real power advantage to suggest he could do anything more than just push her. Vodo likewise might be somewhat more skilled, but with the settings and the fact he isn't as powerful as Saba he dies all the same.

I don't think it would be that fast, but Saba does take down Plo every time.

Kenobi's weakness against force attacks is kind of a massive gaping hole though, especially when by reasoning Mara can at the very least withstand an initial telekinetic attack from Satele. With regards to Satele, unless something has changed from Fatal Alliance to Shadow of Revan, seemed to me to immediately go for lightsaber combat. Obviously she can't compete with either of the duelists in terms of skill or feats, so in my honest opinion her skill gap really is only slightly less noticeable than Kenobi's inferiority to either in power. Mara in her duel with Caedus was exchanging telekinetic attacks with him, so even if Kenobi's Soresu inevitably holds off her offense she's going to weaken him with her TK attacks repeated in succession.

Satele made use of TK and TP whilst slashing the droids apart in Fatal Alliance, so she clearly goes for a mix of the three. As for Mara exchanging telekinetic blasts with Caedus, Jacen had lost a lot of blood and was pretty desperate by that time (he did throw Mara around during points of their duel, IIRC, but to her credit, Mara recovered quickly).

I'm stuck between two and three in a direct comparison, but feel Corran's force abilities are very well suited for an encounter such as this, so I'm going with team 3

Team 3

Kenobi's force defenses are underestimated, as usual.