• 113 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
#51 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

If he did it agaisnt Eru's will, Eru isn't omnipotent. If he did it with Eru's will, these aren't his feats.

And who says is either of that true?

Eru created someone strong enough to go against an omnipotent, but no change took place in himself. infinitely greater than odin.

Even if he did it with eru's will, everything odin, thor, hulk, or literally every character of marvel does is becauseof toaa's/writer's will. If we discard the omnipotent's will, we have two entirely featless characters, making the thread pointless. And I'm sure op did not mean that.

#52 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

If he did it agaisnt Eru's will, Eru isn't omnipotent. If he did it with Eru's will, these aren't his feats.

And who says is either of that true?

Eru created someone strong enough to go against an omnipotent, but no change took place in himself. infinitely greater than odin.

Even if he did it with eru's will, everything odin, thor, hulk, or literally every character of marvel does is becauseof toaa's/writer's will. If we discard the omnipotent's will, we have two entirely featless characters, making the thread pointless. And I'm sure op did not mean that.

But neither of people You mentioned went against TOAA in anyway. If they would and would accomplish ANYTHING, it would mean that TOAA isn't omnipotent.

If Melkor acomplished anything - Eru isn't omnipotent. If he didn't, then there is no point for this battle.

#53 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

But neither of people You mentioned went against TOAA in anyway. If they would and would accomplish ANYTHING, it would mean that TOAA isn't omnipotent.

But all the people mentioned act according to toaa's will. And so does morgoth. They're that powerful because omnipotent wants them to. If we take out omnipotents from both, there is nothing left on both sides, hardly a way to proceed in a thread.

If Melkor acomplished anything - Eru isn't omnipotent. If he didn't, then there is no point for this battle.

And who says that? Why exactly are you ruling out the omnipotence, because the omnipotent created something strong enough to go against him? And how does a character doing anything disprove the creator's omnipotence? Now you're just making stuff up lol

#54 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

But neither of people You mentioned went against TOAA in anyway. If they would and would accomplish ANYTHING, it would mean that TOAA isn't omnipotent.

But all the people mentioned act according to toaa's will. And so does morgoth. They're that powerful because omnipotent wants them to. If we take out omnipotents from both, there is nothing left on both sides, hardly a way to proceed in a thread.

If Melkor acomplished anything - Eru isn't omnipotent. If he didn't, then there is no point for this battle.

And who says that? Why exactly are you ruling out the omnipotence, because the omnipotent created something strong enough to go against him? And how is a character doing anything disprove the creator's omnipotence? Now you're just making stuff up lol

If someone can really go against Omnipotent, he isn't omnipotent, because he can stop his "enemy" from doing anything. You've said that he has done it, agaisnt Eru's will and it makes it such a big feat. It is impossible. If he did it without Eru's response, it is only a solar system level feat at best (it really isn't even that, but it doesn't matter here), since size of affected area is that big.

If Melkor's feat is that he affected whole known universe and not that he went against Eru's will, it will be taken as affecting small realm in comparision to Odin's feats.

If he did it agaisnt Eru's will - Eru isn't omnipotent and we still comeback to point in which only size of this area matters.

Either way - Melkor at his best isn't even close Odin.

#55 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

Melkor was created and given enough power for the purpose of contesting (not defeating) omnipotents. He did that to one already.

Odin, at his best, isn't even close to that kind of power.

And where is this 'small realm' coming from?

#56 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

Melkor was created and given enough power for the purpose of contesting (not defeating) omnipotents. He did that to one already.

Odin, at his best, isn't even close to that kind of power.

And where is this 'small realm' coming from?

If he was contesting omnipotent for real, they weren't omnipotent, because he would be destroyed in microsecond.

We're going nowhere with this. Maybe we're using wrong words for that.

@killemall, @cadencev2, @god_spawn: - we're at dead end and possibly can't understand each other. Can You bring some explanation for either of us?

#57 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: But the omnipotent created him powerful enough for that 0_0

wouldn't that actually back his omnipotence up?

#58 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: But the omnipotent created him powerful enough for that 0_0

wouldn't that actually back his omnipotence up?

No, because it would mean that Eru decited to end his own omnipotence and change himself into "just" most powerfull being in universe.

#59 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@czarny_samael666: But the omnipotent created him powerful enough for that 0_0

wouldn't that actually back his omnipotence up?

No, because it would mean that Eru decited to end his own omnipotence and change himself into "just" most powerfull being in universe.

Why? It just means that melkor was created powerful enough to compete with omnipotents, but not beat them.

Where are you getting any change in eru? or are you just making it up? I'm not aware of any change happening to eru at all.

#60 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

I said: "It would mean", not that it "means", that Eru changed himself. Omnipotent being can't have a real enemy. I have explained it already and You have already asked that question. I don't see other real way to say that again.

But again: If Melko could compete with him, Eru wasn't omnipotent. If he didn't really compete with him, but Eru allowed him to do it, then part "compete with omnipotent" is useless, because it wasn't a real thing. Either way - only thing that matters is what he REALLY done, that he corrupted Arda, a planet. Which makes him near planet level. All these things You mentioned? Silver Surfer would do that.

#61 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

I said: "It would mean", not that it "means", that Eru changed himself.

It might have meant that, but there are no changes shown in eru.

Omnipotent being can't have a real enemy.

Says who? If a writer says it can, it can. And it does. Just denying it isn't a valid argument.

But again: If Melkor could compete with him, Eru wasn't omnipotent.

Again, says who? Melkor competing with him says literally nothing about eru. He's an omnipotent. His position is absolute. It talks about melkor.

If he didn't really compete with him, but Eru allowed him to do it, then part "compete with omnipotent" is useless, because it wasn't a real thing.

Eru made someone strong enough to compete with him. Even if it was his will, he'll need the necessary power to do so.

All these things You mentioned? Silver Surfer would do that.

Er.. surfer isn't even close to galactus level. Much less toaa, I don't think I need to tell you of all people that.

#62 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

1.If writer says so, then he really makes his supreme being not-omnipotent. Even if he stated that Eru is omnipotent, but created a being that REALLY could do something that Eru couldn't deny, Eru ISN'T omnipotent. There is no other option.

2.It says nothing about Melkor, if Eru could deny it in ANY moment.

3.Melkor's feats - corrupting Arda and creating other beings - aren't above Silver Surfer.

#63 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

If writer says so, then he really makes his supreme being not-omnipotent. Even if he stated that Eru is omnipotent, but created a being that REALLY could do something that Eru couldn't deny, Eru ISN'T omnipotent. There is no other option.

No, tolkein gave no indication that eru isn't omnipotent anymore. Just that melkor was strong enough to compete with him. Even the later books don't change anything about eru's supremacy, if you've got something, you tell me. Just stop adding things that the writer didn't do.

It says nothing about Melkor, if Eru could deny it in ANY moment.

If you force an omnipotent to deny it, you're strong enough to beat skyfather level beings. They're nowhere near close to that.

Melkor's feats - corrupting Arda and creating other beings - aren't above Silver Surfer.

Melkor's feat isn't corrupting arda. Melkor's feat is creating and embodying corruption itself. There was no such thing as corruption before morgoth made it up. It's like creating chaos/oblivion/infinity. Surfer could pull off planetary feats, I know. But doing something like that is wayy out of his league. The only characters which have dealt on this scales are pr beyonder (killing death), hotu thanos (killing similar entities) and so on. NOT surfer and skyfathers.

#64 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

1.He did by creating someone who can compete with him.

2.YOU CAN"T FORCE OMNIPOTENT BEING TO ANYTHING.

3.Creating corruption isn't a feat usefull in battle.

#65 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1.He did by creating someone who can compete with him.

He doesn't say anything about that, does he? Nothing says eru after music<eru before it. making things up lol

YOU CAN"T FORCE OMNIPOTENT BEING TO ANYTHING.

..unless the omnipotent created you strong enough. And writer says you can, you can. That's it.

3.Creating corruption isn't a feat usefull in battle.

But it gives us an idea of the scale which he works at. Far above a skyfather paygrade.

#66 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

1.This is logic, not making anything. If Tolkien wanted to make omnipotent (BTW, put some prove that it was said that Eru is omnipotent according to Tolkien), he failed to do by creating Melkor.

2.No. What You said is false.

3.No, it doesn't give us anything. It isn't a feat usefull in battle.

#67 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1.This is logic, not making anything. If Tolkien wanted to make omnipotent (BTW, put some prove that it was said that Eru is omnipotent according to Tolkien), he failed to do by creating Melkor.

1. That isn't logical in any way. And it has no support. There is nothing that even hints that eru weakened himself, meaning you're making things up.

2. Tolkein created eru. Omnipotent. Melkor doesn't change anything at all.

2.No. What You said is false.

I said we listen to the writer. Not what you think. True enough. He's the one who wrote and owns the story, not you. Unnecessary denial isn't getting you anywhere.

3.No, it doesn't give us anything. It isn't a feat usefull in battle.

Yes, it quite is. Creating an entire new aspect to a verse puts him way above anything a skyfather ever did.

#68 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5696 posts) - - Show Bio

ODIN

#69 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

1.Melkor's status means everything. If Tolkien made him to be able to compete with Eru, he failed to make Eru omnipotent. Tolkien wanted to do something and failed. IF he wanted to make Eru omnipotent, but it doesn't matter anyway.

2.YOU'RE in denial. Tolkien may wanted to do something and failed. If his book is unlogical, it doesn't make it fact.

3.Doesn't matter. He can't hurt Odin with creating coruption, it is useless.

EDIT: Post scan from the book stating that Eru is omnipotent.

#70 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. It doesn't. Eru's omnipotent, melkor strong enough to compete with one. What the writer says.. And whether he failed or not wasn't commented on by any authority. It's just you lol

2. Not really. Logical or not, we go by what the writer says. Ftl speed isn't logical. Absolute zero isn't logical. We don't question the writers, we listen to them. Come back when you own lotr. The only thing I'm denying is you randomly adding things to the series that isn't there.

3. He doesn't need to hurt odin using corruption. He uses the same power to create a stronger anti-odin, and enjoys the fight.

"Scan" from the book? 0_0

his very definition is that of an omnipotent.. The supreme being/the one/he that is alone. Do I really have to go through all the books just to find the specific word? I recall something about tolkein's statement though.

#71 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. It doesn't. Eru's omnipotent, melkor strong enough to compete with one. What the writer says.. And whether he failed or not wasn't commented on by any authority. It's just you lol

2. Not really. Logical or not, we go by what the writer says. Ftl speed isn't logical. Absolute zero isn't logical. We don't question the writers, we listen to them. Come back when you own lotr. The only thing I'm denying is you randomly adding things to the series that isn't there.

3. He doesn't need to hurt odin using corruption. He uses the same power to create a stronger anti-odin, and enjoys the fight.

"Scan" from the book? 0_0

his very definition is that of an omnipotent.. The supreme being/the one/he that is alone. Do I really have to go through all the books just to find the specific word? I recall something about tolkein's statement though.

1.Logic.

2.If writer did something that oppose logic, You can't really use it here.

3.Until he created someone as powerfull as Odin - no he can't.

4.Until I will see that phrase, first talk about first two points is... pointless.

#72 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

1.Logic.

2.If writer did something that oppose logic, You can't really use it here.

3.Until he created someone as powerfull as Odin - no he can't.

4.Until I will see that phrase, first talk about first two points is... pointless.

1. What logic? It's just your opinion.

2. He didn't. And what, ftl speeds and flying and all the other illogical stuff is not used? Writers can defy logic. That's why we read superhero fiction in the first place.

3. Yeah, he created corruption, a basic entity of the universe, much like odin.

4. I'll try and find it. But isn't his description more than enough? He's like exact parallel of toaa..

I seriously get the feeling you're just finding bad excuses because you don't think melkor can be as strong as comic top tiers.. Odin seriously doesn't win here.

#73 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

1.It is not. Omnipotent being have to be able to deny any opposition and its work. If Eru couldn't deny Melkor's corruption, he wasn't omnipotent, no matter what writer will say.

2.You're talking about physics, not logic. Not the same thing.

3.I have asked simple question: Did he ever created anyone in Odin's level? If no, then he can't.

4.It isn't, because it only says about his place in hierarchy, that he is Number One, but it is not saying anything about his limitations.

It is not about excucess. Anomaly is an abstract being in Marvel, pretty much like Melkor, but its power isn't great, it was destroyed by Maelstrom. Power matters, ways in which it was used also matters.

Gorr, Thor's enemy, currently killed an Elder God. But we don't know how powerfull that Elder God was and it wouldn't be a good argument for Gorr.

Galactus killed many Proemial Gods, including Diableri.

It doesn't matter what role You have, it matter how You've used Your power. You have just a statement of part of creation that was made by Melkor. Corruption in this case. But it means nothing in fight, as much as for Marvel Ares it means close to nothing that he is god of war. She-Hulk isn't special by any means, but she would kick his a$$.

#74 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

Morgoth was created with the strength to contend, (but not beat) with an omnipotent, without the omnipotent himself undergoing any changes.

Odin is nowhere near that level of power. Only thing that matters here.

And 'no matter what the writer say'? It's the only thing that matters. Your opinion has no value against the writers, no matter what you think.

2. Logic and physics is clear, nigh-undeniable. You aren't talking about either. You're talking about your own opinion.

3. Yes, he literally created an aspect of the verse, like chaos or oblivion, and embodied it.

4. Exactly. He's at the top of hierarchy, the supreme being, one before time and all: omnipotent. Unless tolkein's words hold less credit than marvel authors, which isn't the case.

Irrelevant examples. None of the

Marvel uses 'God' as a title. Not all writers do that.

#75 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

To sum it up:

Ergo Eru isn't omnipotent, Melkor doesn't have feats against any really powerfull beings, writer made a mistake (if he really wanted to make Eru omnipotent, I say that he didn't), being a top dog doesn't mean being omnipotent, no one said that Eru is omnipotent.

Oh, and writer can't deny logic's laws. If he made a mistake in logic, than his character is weaker than he wanted to make him. Tolkien could even say that Eru is omnipotent - doesn't matter, if he didn't make him one. His mistake, not mine.

Melko and Eru are barely in Surfer's level

#76 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

Ergo Eru isn't omnipotent (according you, contradicting with writer), Melkor doesn't have feats against any really powerfull beings (according to you contradicting with writer), writer made a mistake (say you, against the writer) (if he really wanted to make Eru omnipotent, I say that he didn't), being a top dog doesn't mean being omnipotent (says you, not the writer), no one said that Eru is omnipotent.

To sum it up, eru is omnipotent, melkor made strong enough to contend with him, without him devolving. Odin stands no chance.

You saying doesn't change a thing. You neither wrote nor own the franchise.

Oh, and writer can't deny logic's laws. If he made a mistake in logic, than his character is weaker than he wanted to make him. Tolkien could even say that Eru is omnipotent - doesn't matter, if he didn't make him one. His mistake, not mine.

Writer can deny whatever the hell they want. They already have. You do not have the authority to say what they can do and cannot. Otherwise ftl travel would be discarded, so would be flying, so would be reality warp, cosmic energy, and all.

First own the franchise, then people will take your word instead of the original author.

Melkor and Eru are barely in Surfer's level

Yeah, when you own LOTR and make statement on how eru devolved. Till then odin gets stomped. or own marvel and get odin to the top of marvel's hierarchy. Dream on owning either lol

And as you currently do not own either, Melkor>>odin.

A song to go with deadpool:

#77 Edited by leito (271 posts) - - Show Bio

Eru never created Melkor powerful enough to challenge him.

'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

#78 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@leito said:

Eru never created Melkor powerful enough to challenge him.

'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

"contend". Not "Challange". One hell of a difference.

Eru gave him enough power at the beginning of song to actually alter it. Any random character, like spiderman, or thor, or odin, or eternity, isn't powerful enough to do that. Melkor at the start of the song also had eru's will, meaning nigh, or questionable omnipotent.

#79 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

And this is how this ends. You're in denial of logic, a specially because You belive that writer can deny logic.

#80 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

And this is how this ends. You're in denial of logic, a specially because You belive that writer can deny logic.

It doesn't matter if they can or not.

You're saying your opinion is logic, when it's not. You're not using any established logic here at all, just what you think is logical, against writer's opinion. Fail.

And haven't seen you complaining about illogical stuff like flying and ftl speeds? Using logic for only one specific fiction so that may not win is.. sad.

#81 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: You're talking about physic, not logic. People flying around are against it, not against logic. Logic has nothing to do with people flying around.

#82 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: You're talking about physic, not logic. People flying around are against it, not against logic. Logic has nothing to do with people flying around.

They aren't mutually exclusive to begin with. They support each other most of the times. It's as illogical to say someone can suddenly ftl, as it is against physics.

#83 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@princearagorn1: You're talking about physic, not logic. People flying around are against it, not against logic. Logic has nothing to do with people flying around.

They aren't mutually exclusive to begin with. They support each other most of the times. It's as illogical to say someone can suddenly ftl, as it is against physics.

It isn't because physics there can be different than in our world, while logic can not.

#84 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@princearagorn1: You're talking about physic, not logic. People flying around are against it, not against logic. Logic has nothing to do with people flying around.

They aren't mutually exclusive to begin with. They support each other most of the times. It's as illogical to say someone can suddenly ftl, as it is against physics.

It isn't because physics there can be different than in our world, while logic can not.

...physics and logic aren't mutually exclusive to begin with...

Not that he's breaking any clear established logic here at all.

#85 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

Because as it seems he never said that Eru is omnipotent, so You're right - he didn't break any logic laws, since Eru isn't omnipotent.

Either way, I know enough now to be sure, that none of these people have any chance with people like Thanos or Tyrant, let alone Odin and higher.

#86 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: There you go declaring stuff about eru again. You seem to think you own lotr. Believe what you want lol

Odin gets stomped.

#87 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: There you go declaring stuff about eru again. You seem to think you own lotr. Believe what you want lol

Odin gets stomped.

Odin stomps. You haven't prove that Tolkien even wanted to make Eru omnipotent. Melkor has no offensive abilities. And his doing against Eru doesn't matter. You're also confusing logic with physics.

#88 Posted by luthluth (89 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate

#89 Edited by Arathorn_II (395 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@czarny_samael666:

Melkor was created and given enough power for the purpose of contesting (not defeating) omnipotents. He did that to one already.

Odin, at his best, isn't even close to that kind of power.

And where is this 'small realm' coming from?

If he was contesting omnipotent for real, they weren't omnipotent, because he would be destroyed in microsecond.

We're going nowhere with this. Maybe we're using wrong words for that.

@killemall, @cadencev2, @god_spawn: - we're at dead end and possibly can't understand each other. Can You bring some explanation for either of us?

Just something about omnipotence. No one, ever, is omnipotent. Not Eru, not TOAA, not God, not Allah, no one. For example: Can TOAA make a stone, big enough so he couldn't lift it? Yes, this means there is something he can't do, lifting the stone. No, he isn't able to make such a stone. This means nobody is omnipotent. Also, if Melkor went against the will of Eru, who says he would destroy him? If I go against Obama does this mean he's gonna nuke me? No, ofcourse not. Melkor went against Eru and Eru showed him that he was clearly the most powerful being, if not omnipotent if such thing even exists. This does mean however that Melkor was powerful enough to go against his will even if it was for just a brief moment. Odin has never done such a feat and because this apparantly goes about feats, it means Melkor wins.

#90 Posted by ShootingNova (19126 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: Using the age old omnipotence paradox, huh? Well you can make paradoxes to contradict omnscience, omnipresence etc.

Omnipotence actually refers to a number of things

1. The ability to do anything at all (the commonly believed and known form of omnipotence, being all-powerful).

2. The being in question can do anything that would correspond with/relate to his/her/its nature.

3. The said being is actually doing everything simultaneously (which kinda doesn't make sense, because that would mean he is also doing nothing).

I don't know. This stuff is sometimes stupid in that it is so paradoxical and contradictory.

LOL @ Princearagon1 as well, you can't contend with an omnipotent being. If they are truly omnipotent, there is no "contending".

#91 Posted by Arathorn_II (395 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: Using the age old omnipotence paradox, huh? Well you can make paradoxes to contradict omnscience, omnipresence etc.

Omnipotence actually refers to a number of things

1. The ability to do anything at all (the commonly believed and known form of omnipotence, being all-powerful).

2. The being in question can do anything that would correspond with/relate to his/her/its nature.

3. The said being is actually doing everything simultaneously (which kinda doesn't make sense, because that would mean he is also doing nothing).

I don't know. This stuff is sometimes stupid in that it is so paradoxical and contradictory.

LOL @ Princearagon1 as well, you can't contend with an omnipotent being. If they are truly omnipotent, there is no "contending".

If this is an age pld paradox, then why are there almost two pages about omnipotence, when it actually never has,ca, or will exist because it's impossible?

For the second time, there isn't such thing as being truly omnipotent. So Melkor contended with a near omnipotent being. And again for the second time, if there ever could by such thing as omnipotence, it doesn't mean can't contend it. if someone is contending you, are you gonna try to destroy him/her with everything that lies in your power?

#92 Posted by eternityx (2819 posts) - - Show Bio

If Eru is omnipotent and Melkor challenged him, then it is because he allowed it. If Melkor challenged Eru against his will, then that means Eru isn't omnipotent.

Either way, Odin one shots him.

#93 Edited by Arathorn_II (395 posts) - - Show Bio

If Eru is omnipotent and Melkor challenged him, then it is because he allowed it. If Melkor challenged Eru against his will, then that means Eru isn't omnipotent.

Either way, Odin one shots him.

If you actually read what I just said, twice, you would know that can't exist anything, not even in fiction, as being omnipotent. This means that Eru, TOAA, God, Allah and more were not, aren't and will never be omnipotent. This doesn't mean that Eru isn't near omnipotent. And it also doesn't mean that a near omnipotent Eru wouldn't be near omnipotent if he wouldn't allow Melkor to do that. It's the same as what I already said before, twice, if an omnipotent gets challanged in some way, then it doesn't mean that he would completely beat him.

Either way, Melkor will win.

#94 Edited by ShootingNova (19126 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: I don't know what you were trying to do by re-iterating what I just said. I was pretty much saying omnipotence technically doesn't exist (at least the first sense).

And what do you mean, two pages? If it is old, it is more likely to be expanded upon and therefore would result in more content relating to it.

#95 Posted by eternityx (2819 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: I don't care what you already said twice. Because what you said is a load of B******. Melkor has no feats to suggest that he can even take the hulk on. If I challenged Mike Tyson to a fight and he decides to do nothing about it, it doesn't mean he can't kick my a** with ease.

#96 Posted by Arathorn_II (395 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: I don't know what you were trying to do by re-iterating what I just said. I was pretty much saying omnipotence technically doesn't exist (at least the first sense).

And what do you mean, two pages? If it is old, it is more likely to be expanded upon and therefore would result in more content relating to it.

You said first that I used the paradox, after that what omnipotence can refer to, then that the paradoxes can be stupid and after that something about contending an omnipotence being. I'm sorry if I didn't got the fact the you said that omnipotence doesn't exist.

If that paradox is ages old (what you said), then it would mean that there shouldn't be an almost two pages long discussion about Eru is omnipotent or not because there can not be such thing.

@arathorn_ii: I don't care what you already said twice. Because what you said is a load of B******. Melkor has no feats to suggest that he can even take the hulk on. If I challenged Mike Tyson to a fight and he decides to do nothing about it, it doesn't mean he can't kick my a** with ease.

You should care about what I already said twice (trice by now), because you're saying something that I already explained, trice! Melkor had the power to take on an near omnipotent being. Ofcourse he didn't make it, but the Hulk wouldn't even have the power. You can still try to fight Mike Tyson, with having a chance, a todler however has not, but can still challange him. And you're Melkor in this and the Hulk, or Odin, is the todler.

#97 Edited by BrokenSpear (189 posts) - - Show Bio

Are we talkin aboult the same morgoth that got his isht pushed in by tulkas?

#98 Edited by eternityx (2819 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: There is no such thing as near omnipotence. Either a being is omnipotent or it isn't. An omnipotent being is always infinitely more powerful than one that isn't omnipotent. Also wasn't Melkor defeated by an elf?

#99 Posted by Arathorn_II (395 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: There is no such thing as near omnipotence. Either a being is omnipotent or it isn't. An omnipotent being is always infinitely more powerful than one that isn't omnipotent. Also wasn't Melkor defeated by an elf?

There is such thing as near omnipotence since there isn't such thing as being totally omnipotent, and I already explained why three times. You could see ''near omnipotence'' as being omnipotent but without the possibility of beating the paradoxes, and in the case, Eru is omnipotent.

No, Melkor didn't got defeated by an elf. Melkor broke Fingolfin's neck by crushing it with his foot. However, Fingolfin managed to harm Melkor 7 times. But since I read in this tread it's Melkor, slightly after the song of the Ainur and were he still has all of his powers, Melkor stomps.

#100 Posted by ShootingNova (19126 posts) - - Show Bio

@arathorn_ii: There's people who either don't know of the paradox, or are trying to find counters for it, etc.