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#1 Posted by Frocharocha (2259 posts) - - Show Bio

Morgoth travels to universe 616 with the plans of corrupting it, stealing the universe power's and creating army's to taint the entire creation of Eru, TOAA and the other Valar. he then travels to Asgard and stomps every army and being there with ridiculous easy. At the palace he meets Odin. Morgoth see's hi mas a being of great power and Odin with hopes of defeating the evil entity atacks Morgoth. Who wins?

-Morgoth with the powers at the start of the Song.

#2 Edited by RogueShadow (10230 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin.

#3 Posted by Pope052 (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

From my knowledge of the two, Odin doesn't even need to try against Morgoth.

#4 Posted by XiiX (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin.

#5 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

From my knowledge of the two, Odin doesn't even need to try against Morgoth.

This is morgoth at the beginning of song. Or full powered melkor. Same guy who corrupted an omnipotent's creation, and knew a good solid amount of his thoughts. Despite what people say, odin doesn't have a chance in hell here, marvel keeps skyfather way below nigh-omnipotents..

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#6 Posted by instantkarma1 (2 posts) - - Show Bio

It's hard to compare the Marvel and Tolkien universes. Most of the mystical powers in Tolkien's works are subtle, or done off-scene.

Another point of consideration, Melkor/Morgoth was the 2nd most powerful being in existence, under Eru. And he was at the height of his power at the start of the song which created Arda.

#7 Edited by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin in a mega curbstomp.

#8 Edited by Frocharocha (2259 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwwprod said:

Odin in a mega curbstomp.

Nah.At his full powers Melkor is a no-physical being with. Melkorwith the aid of Ungolianth destroyed the trees which the sun was just a fruit.

He casted down mountains, stars and constellationsmade by other Ainur.

Morgoth is bascally Similarion version of Satan. Tolkien was really chirstian, that's why his verse is almost 'biblical written' and underpowerd.

Melkor wish is to become Omnipotent and create a universe on his image.

#9 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5059 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Edited by KingOfAsh (3571 posts) - - Show Bio

@frocharocha: Melkor did destroy the Sun (or something), but Odin destroyed a galaxy at one point. So I'd say Odin wins.

#11 Posted by Pope052 (3067 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by Pipxeroth (500 posts) - - Show Bio

Melkor

- Pip

#13 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Well, ask her if any of what I said was untrue.. it's not. she apparently studied tolkein..

A full form melkor interfered with a freaking omnipotent, and knew a lot of his thoughts. He made his own themes (lotr verse was created by ainur on eru's themes), declared the creation as his own etc. He's basically the tolkein version of satan. He came up with the very idea of corruption/darkness and embodies it.

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#14 Edited by Egemensson (258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingofash said:

@frocharocha: Melkor did destroy the Sun (or something), but Odin destroyed a galaxy at one point. So I'd say Odin wins.

odin never destroyed a galaxy, everyone keeps saying that. that kinda power level would turn arishem into dust along with his all fellows, but he couldn't do jack against celestials with 1000 yrs of prep. and melkor destroyed the trees, not sun. sun is just a little crystal with a bright flower in it in tolkien universe; it was made after the destruction of trees by valar.

yes, it's really hard to compare tolkien and marvel universes. but melkor is a vala, which means he's as powerful as he needs to be, but not an omniscient; he cannot create a planet of his own, cause he doesn't know such thing can be created unless eru lets him. however, if you'd send melkor to marvel universe; since he's a direct creation of eru, i think he'd be at least on par with living tribunal.

arda is the only -known- physical place in tolkien universe, and melkor was messing with 14 of his counterparts. maybe that's why he doesn't look like more than a mountainbreaker there, maybe it was so difficult to destroy sth made by creatures in your level.

so, morgoth takes this imo.

i'm a tolkien nerd btw, you can ask me anything..

#15 Posted by BigCimmerian (8007 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin roflstomps lol.

#16 Edited by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwwprod said:

Odin in a mega curbstomp.

Nah.At his full powers Melkor is a no-physical being with. Melkorwith the aid of Ungolianth destroyed the trees which the sun was just a fruit.

He casted down mountains, stars and constellationsmade by other Ainur.

Morgoth is bascally Similarion version of Satan. Tolkien was really chirstian, that's why his verse is almost 'biblical written' and underpowerd.

Melkor wish is to become Omnipotent and create a universe on his image.

None of those feats but Morgoth on Odin's level.

Morgoth can casted down mountains, stars and constellationsmade by other Ainur.

While Odin can reality warp on a Galaxy scale.

Pretty obvious who wins.

#17 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

From my knowledge of the two, Odin doesn't even need to try against Morgoth.

This is morgoth at the beginning of song. Or full powered melkor. Same guy who corrupted an omnipotent's creation, and knew a good solid amount of his thoughts. Despite what people say, odin doesn't have a chance in hell here, marvel keeps skyfather way below nigh-omnipotents..

Their whole realm don't seem to be bigger than one solar system, ergo no one in LOTR can match Odin's power.

#18 Posted by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@pope052 said:

From my knowledge of the two, Odin doesn't even need to try against Morgoth.

This is morgoth at the beginning of song. Or full powered melkor. Same guy who corrupted an omnipotent's creation, and knew a good solid amount of his thoughts. Despite what people say, odin doesn't have a chance in hell here, marvel keeps skyfather way below nigh-omnipotents..

Their whole realm don't seem to be bigger than one solar system, ergo no one in LOTR can match Odin's power.

Eru Ilúvatar (TOAA of the LOTR's universe) would beat Odin.

#19 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwwprod said:

@czarny_samael666 said:
@princearagorn1 said:

@pope052 said:

From my knowledge of the two, Odin doesn't even need to try against Morgoth.

This is morgoth at the beginning of song. Or full powered melkor. Same guy who corrupted an omnipotent's creation, and knew a good solid amount of his thoughts. Despite what people say, odin doesn't have a chance in hell here, marvel keeps skyfather way below nigh-omnipotents..

Their whole realm don't seem to be bigger than one solar system, ergo no one in LOTR can match Odin's power.

Eru Ilúvatar (TOAA of the LOTR's universe) would beat Odin.

Size of the realm doesn't have anything to do with it.. We have an omnipotent, someone who competed with him. And two people around that power. Unless you're talking about myth/God odin, I don't see how no one can match him in power. not 616 odin, at least.

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#20 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio
@jwwprod said:

Eru Ilúvatar (TOAA of the LOTR's universe) would beat Odin.

He wouldn't. He created only a realm similar in size to - at best - solar system.

Size of the realm doesn't have anything to do with it.. We have an omnipotent, someone who competed with him. And two people around that power. Unless you're talking about myth/God odin, I don't see how no one can match him in power. not 616 odin, at least.

By Your own words Morgoth is prove why Eru isn't omnipotent. Besides, there is no such a thing, we compare them by feats. TOAA's control over his own realm is proved by existance of Megaverse. Eru has only one realm.

Plus Odin can do exactly the same thing.

#21 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:
@princearagorn1 said:

Size of the realm doesn't have anything to do with it.. We have an omnipotent, someone who competed with him. And two people around that power. Unless you're talking about myth/God odin, I don't see how no one can match him in power. not 616 odin, at least.

By Your own words Morgoth is prove why Eru isn't omnipotent. Besides, there is no such a thing, we compare them by feats. TOAA's control over his own realm is proved by existance of Megaverse. Eru has only one realm.

Plus Odin can do exactly the same thing.

Using feats for omnipotent is the most illogical thing I've heard of.. One realm or two, what does have to do with omnipotence?

And no, odin cannot go against toaa. He'd get owned by LT.

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#22 Edited by BigCimmerian (8007 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:
@princearagorn1 said:

Size of the realm doesn't have anything to do with it.. We have an omnipotent, someone who competed with him. And two people around that power. Unless you're talking about myth/God odin, I don't see how no one can match him in power. not 616 odin, at least.

By Your own words Morgoth is prove why Eru isn't omnipotent. Besides, there is no such a thing, we compare them by feats. TOAA's control over his own realm is proved by existance of Megaverse. Eru has only one realm.

Plus Odin can do exactly the same thing.

Using feats for omnipotent is the most illogical thing I've heard of.. One realm or two, what does have to do with omnipotence?

And no, odin cannot go against toaa. He'd get owned by LT.

Can you prove that Eru is omnipotent?

#23 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

Can you prove that Eru is omnipotent?

what's there to prove? it's not like I'm using some obscure character and claiming it omnipotent, eru's very definition is omnipotent, 'the one', or 'he that is alone', or 'supreme being, God'. I personally don't need any further proof. Unless you want me to find a quote from the books with the specific word "omnipotent". How do you even prove someone's omnipotent anyway?

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#24 Posted by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Yes he would, Eru Ilúvatar is omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent.

Also when you said that he's below Odin because he only created a realm the size of a solar system that argument is only correct if he's power comes directly from that solar system but if your omnipotent that's not the case.

Trust me the only guys in Marvel that would stand a chance against him are TOAA, Pre Retcon Beyonder & Thanos with the HOTU.

#25 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@bigcimmerian said:

Can you prove that Eru is omnipotent?

what's there to prove? it's not like I'm using some obscure character and claiming it omnipotent, eru's very definition is omnipotent, 'the one', or 'he that is alone', or 'supreme being, God'. I personally don't need any further proof. Unless you want me to find a quote from the books with the specific word "omnipotent". How do you even prove someone's omnipotent anyway?

1.You have said that Morgoth competed with him. If he did, Eru isn't omnipotent, just the top dog of his universe.

2.You don't. Omnipotence is actually impossible, because Eru created his realm for purpose, ergo he has needs. And being that has needs isn't omnipotent.

@jwwprod said:

@czarny_samael666: Yes he would, Eru Ilúvatar is omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent.

Also when you said that he's below Odin because he only created a realm the size of a solar system that argument is only correct if he's power comes directly from that solar system but if your omnipotent that's not the case.

Trust me the only guys in Marvel that would stand a chance against him are TOAA, Pre Retcon Beyonder & Thanos with the HOTU.

Look above. If Morogth had any affection on Eru (reason why Eru even is in this debate), then Eru isn't omnipotent and only as powerfull as best feat he made.

#26 Edited by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@frocharocha: @princearagorn1: You know what I changed my mind, Odin would not curbstomp Morgoth but I wouldn't say Morgoth is anywhere near Eru Ilúvatar's level.

#27 Posted by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Morogth isn't equal to Eru Ilúvatar.

Eru Ilúvatar has no limits, he just wanted to create a realm the size of a solar system, if he wanted to he could of created a omniverse, hell mabe he did (we just don't know), he would erase the entire Marvel universe if he wanted to.

Eru Ilúvatar is omnipotent.

#28 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwwprod said:

@czarny_samael666: Morogth isn't equal to Eru Ilúvatar.

Eru Ilúvatar has no limits, he just wanted to create a realm the size of a solar system, if he wanted to he could of created a omniverse, hell mabe he did (we just don't know), he would erase the entire Marvel universe if he wanted to.

Eru Ilúvatar is omnipotent.

You haven't really answered on my points from answer to both of You.

#29 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@bigcimmerian said:

Can you prove that Eru is omnipotent?

what's there to prove? it's not like I'm using some obscure character and claiming it omnipotent, eru's very definition is omnipotent, 'the one', or 'he that is alone', or 'supreme being, God'. I personally don't need any further proof. Unless you want me to find a quote from the books with the specific word "omnipotent". How do you even prove someone's omnipotent anyway?

1.You have said that Morgoth competed with him. If he did, Eru isn't omnipotent, just the top dog of his universe.

2.You don't. Omnipotence is actually impossible, because Eru created his realm for purpose, ergo he has needs. And being that has needs isn't omnipotent.

1. If an omnipotent wills to create someone strong enough to compete with them, they can. As Simple as that. More so, it's about what the writer wants. They can imagine whatever they want to.

2. How is having a purpose or a need even remotely related with not being omnipotent?

Look above. If Morogth had any affection on Eru (reason why Eru even is in this debate), then Eru isn't omnipotent and only as powerfull as best feat he made.

Nope, morgoth was that powerful because eru wanted him to be. If anything, it reinforces eru's omnipotence, he can create at least three beings with enough power to rebel against an omnipotent, one of them actually doing so.

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#30 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

1.You have said that Morgoth competed with him. If he did, Eru isn't omnipotent, just the top dog of his universe.

2.You don't. Omnipotence is actually impossible, because Eru created his realm for purpose, ergo he has needs. And being that has needs isn't omnipotent.

1. If an omnipotent wills to create someone strong enough to compete with them, they can. As Simple as that. More so, it's about what the writer wants. They can imagine whatever they want to.

2. How is having a purpose or a need even remotely related with not being omnipotent?

Look above. If Morogth had any affection on Eru (reason why Eru even is in this debate), then Eru isn't omnipotent and only as powerfull as best feat he made.

Nope, morgoth was that powerful because eru wanted him to be. If anything, it reinforces eru's omnipotence, he can create at least three beings with enough power to rebel against an omnipotent, one of them actually doing so.

1.Paradox of omnipotence, just another reason to not belive in one. Either way - if he created someone who could compete with him, he wasn't omnipotent in the start or changed himself to be a being with whichi Morgoth could compete.

2.Because omnipotent being is also all-knowing. He don't need to create anything to gain knowledge - he just wish to know it, the end. If he needs something - he gets it.

3.How powerfull? Since competition with Eru means a lot for Eru, it means nothing for Morgoth. If he could compete with him, Eru is limitted to his feats. And his feats - as much as Melkor's - aren't even near Odin level.

#31 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. Throughout lore, there is nothing suggesting that eru went through any change. He remains in full form. Melkor however, enters the physical realm, and later becomes morgoth, and even after that loses power.

2. Yes, and..? He can't know it by creating a world as he wants? What he does is hardly related with disproving omnipotence. If he failed to do something, that's different.

3. Actually, being able to go against an omnipotent (by his will, of course) is a feat of melkor. Not for the omnipotent. Why would omnipotent even need feats? It isn't like someone random is coming and competing with him. He was a being made by himself, with enough power to play the part. Much like hotu thanos, or dreaming celestial (it was dreaming celestial who got his own conscious, wasn't it?) for the purpose of story. Otherwise, story involving omnipotent would start an end with: "There is an omnipotent called xyz. The end."

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#32 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. Throughout lore, there is nothing suggesting that eru went through any change. He remains in full form. Melkor however, enters the physical realm, and later becomes morgoth, and even after that loses power.

2. Yes, and..? He can't know it by creating a world as he wants? What he does is hardly related with disproving omnipotence. If he failed to do something, that's different.

3. Actually, being able to go against an omnipotent (by his will, of course) is a feat of melkor. Not for the omnipotent. Why would omnipotent even need feats? It isn't like someone random is coming and competing with him. He was a being made by himself, with enough power to play the part. Much like hotu thanos, or dreaming celestial (it was dreaming celestial who got his own conscious, wasn't it?) for the purpose of story. Otherwise, story involving omnipotent would start an end with: "There is an omnipotent called xyz. The end."

1.Than he wasn't omnipotent in the beginning. There is no other logical answer.

2.It show us that he needed to create a reality.

3.Thanos wasn't truly omnipotent. Purpose of the story takes that claim from most of so called omnipotent beings, not only Eru, also from The Presence from DC. Melkor doesn't have that feat, because by that action he proved that Eru isn't truly omnipotent, so he just went after top dog, which is a good feat, but not one placing him near Odin.

Exactly that is how it would be - it isn't, so any story with omnipotent being pretty much proves that it is not omnipotent.

#33 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. Or he is omnipotent and can create someone as strong as he likes.

2. It showed us that he created a reality. The path he chose was that, more for the story's purpose than anything. Not that he absolutely needed to exactly the same thing he did, it's never mentioned. Having a need, a physical form, creating something.. none of the reasons have any claim on disproving omnipotent. The omnipotent's nature is decided by the writer. Marvel chooses toaa to be completely unrelated, tenchi muyo chooses tenchi to be completely physical. Tolkein chooses eru a bit after christian God, and so on.

3. Melkor did what he was meant to do. Be strong to oppose an omnipotent, by the omnipotent's will. Odin has nowhere near feats to go against LT, much less toaa.

Exactly that is how it would be - it isn't, so any story with omnipotent being pretty much proves that it is not omnipotent.

Er.. no. That's your view on an omnipotent.

Marvel: toaa. Lotr: eru. Narnia: Emperor beyond sea. Tenchi muyo: Tenchi. Each writer chooese to write their omnipotent in different way. Doesn't mean that none of the above are omnipotent. If we say so, no fictional being is omnipotent, as they're always in the story, which is wrong.

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#34 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. Or he is omnipotent and can create someone as strong as he likes.

2. It showed us that he created a reality. The path he chose was that, more for the story's purpose than anything. Not that he absolutely needed to exactly the same thing he did, it's never mentioned. Having a need, a physical form, creating something.. none of the reasons have any claim on disproving omnipotent. The omnipotent's nature is decided by the writer. Marvel chooses toaa to be completely unrelated, tenchi muyo chooses tenchi to be completely physical. Tolkein chooses eru a bit after christian God, and so on.

3. Melkor did what he was meant to do. Be strong to oppose an omnipotent, by the omnipotent's will. Odin has nowhere near feats to go against LT, much less toaa.

Exactly that is how it would be - it isn't, so any story with omnipotent being pretty much proves that it is not omnipotent.

Er.. no. That's your view on an omnipotent.

Marvel: toaa. Lotr: eru. Narnia: Emperor beyond sea. Tenchi muyo: Tenchi. Each writer chooese to write their omnipotent in different way. Doesn't mean that none of the above are omnipotent. If we say so, no fictional being is omnipotent, as they're always in the story, which is wrong.

1.We're running in circles.

These are possibilities (for a moment I will try to forgot about connection between needs and omnipotence):

I. Eru is omnipotent -> he creates someone --> to make him able to compete with him, he transform himself into being that has limited power

II.Eru isn't omnipotent -> creates powerfull beings that can compete with him.

III.Eru is omnipotent -> Morgoth never could compete with him, so he is only limitted to HIS feats and Eru's status is irrelevant to our debate.

2.&3.TOAA is as close as he can be to omnipotence, exactly because of how Marvel showed him. Eru was shown as christian god and here we come to reason why I'm an ateist. Considering that we can limit this topic to 1. point and not go into religion war, I would like to stick to 1. point.

#35 Posted by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Actually no, you don't have to be all knowing to be omnipotent, look at Azathoth from the H.P. lovecraft verse.

He is the supreme being in the Cthulhu Mythos, but he is nowhere near omniscient, in fact he isn't smart at he is completely stupid! hence the reason why he's called "The Blind Idiot God" and that he also sleeps but that's to get into that.

But apart from those two limits Azathoth is completely omnipotent and omnipresent with unlimited possibilities.

#36 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwwprod said:

@czarny_samael666: Actually no, you don't have to be all knowing to be omnipotent, look at Azathoth from the H.P. lovecraft verse.

He is the supreme being in the Cthulhu Mythos, but he is nowhere near omniscient, in fact he isn't smart at he is completely stupid! hence the reason why he's called "The Blind Idiot God" and that he also sleeps but that's to get into that.

But apart from those two limits Azathoth is completely omnipotent and omnipresent with unlimited possibilities.

If he is omnipotent, then he can wish to be omniscient.

#37 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin wins

#38 Posted by JwwProd (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Azathoth can most likely make himself omniscient.

But because he's so bat s**t insane, crazy, stupid and full of rage that he doesn't think about doing it.

#39 Posted by Frocharocha (2259 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@czarny_samael666:

1. Throughout lore, there is nothing suggesting that eru went through any change. He remains in full form. Melkor however, enters the physical realm, and later becomes morgoth, and even after that loses power.

2. Yes, and..? He can't know it by creating a world as he wants? What he does is hardly related with disproving omnipotence. If he failed to do something, that's different.

3. Actually, being able to go against an omnipotent (by his will, of course) is a feat of melkor. Not for the omnipotent. Why would omnipotent even need feats? It isn't like someone random is coming and competing with him. He was a being made by himself, with enough power to play the part. Much like hotu thanos, or dreaming celestial (it was dreaming celestial who got his own conscious, wasn't it?) for the purpose of story. Otherwise, story involving omnipotent would start an end with: "There is an omnipotent called xyz. The end."

1.Than he wasn't omnipotent in the beginning. There is no other logical answer.

2.It show us that he needed to create a reality.

3.Thanos wasn't truly omnipotent. Purpose of the story takes that claim from most of so called omnipotent beings, not only Eru, also from The Presence from DC. Melkor doesn't have that feat, because by that action he proved that Eru isn't truly omnipotent, so he just went after top dog, which is a good feat, but not one placing him near Odin.

Exactly that is how it would be - it isn't, so any story with omnipotent being pretty much proves that it is not omnipotent.

Nothing on the LTOR verse happens without Eru Illuvatar will. The only reason why Melkor did what he did is because Tolkien needed an antagonist to the Similarion just like in any other fiction (The Bible, Marvel comics and so on).

#40 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. Yes, we are. The logic is simple enough:

Eru is omnipotent. He creates melkor with enough power to go against him. There is literally no quote saying that eru devolved in power from doing that. When characters lose powers, it's quite apparent in tolkein's work.

Melkor->morgoth, sauron -> great eye, oolorin-> gandalf. or reverse, gandalf, grey->white.

There is no evolvement/devolvement given for eru. In fact, he was just fine for the second music as he was for the first.

The answer is, he's omnipotent, and created someone who can compete with him with his will. Both supported by the available material. Unlike the not omnipotent/devolved theory you're presenting.

No we're out of the loop

2. Not really. toaa is no closer to omnipotent that anyone else I mentioned. Eru isn't chrisitan God. I said, Eru is modeled after him.

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#41 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwwprod said:

@czarny_samael666: Azathoth can most likely make himself omniscient.

But because he's so bat s**t insane, crazy, stupid and full of rage that he doesn't think about doing it.

Ok, but it has nothing to do with this thread ;-)

#42 Posted by logy5000 (5699 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin.

#43 Posted by Frocharocha (2259 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. Yes, we are. The logic is simple enough:

Eru is omnipotent. He creates melkor with enough power to go against him. There is literally no quote saying that eru devolved in power from doing that. When characters lose powers, it's quite apparent in tolkein's work.

Melkor->morgoth, sauron -> great eye, oolorin-> gandalf. or reverse, gandalf, grey->white.

There is no evolvement/devolvement given for eru. In fact, he was just fine for the second music as he was for the first.

The answer is, he's omnipotent, and created someone who can compete with him with his will. Both supported by the available material. Unlike the not omnipotent/devolved theory you're presenting.

No we're out of the loop

2. Not really. toaa is no closer to omnipotent that anyone else I mentioned. Eru isn't chrisitan God. I said, Eru is modeled after him.

The only problem with that you stated is that Eru couldn't not beat melkor. In order to be Omnipotent a being needs to do what is impossible, no matter the circumstances or situation. If Eru is omnipotent, yep he could easily creates melkor with enough power to go agaisn't him, but he could also beat him no matter how powerful Melkor is. That's the definition of Omnipotence; Do the impossible. No paradox can explain it.

#44 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

1. Yes, we are. The logic is simple enough:

Eru is omnipotent. He creates melkor with enough power to go against him. There is literally no quote saying that eru devolved in power from doing that. When characters lose powers, it's quite apparent in tolkein's work.

Melkor->morgoth, sauron -> great eye, oolorin-> gandalf. or reverse, gandalf, grey->white.

There is no evolvement/devolvement given for eru. In fact, he was just fine for the second music as he was for the first.

The answer is, he's omnipotent, and created someone who can compete with him with his will. Both supported by the available material. Unlike the not omnipotent/devolved theory you're presenting.

No we're out of the loop

2. Not really. toaa is no closer to omnipotent that anyone else I mentioned. Eru isn't chrisitan God. I said, Eru is modeled after him.

If Melkor can REALLY go against him, in mean that it matters anything for us, not like fly vs sun, or something similar, it would mean that he had any chance, so Eru couldn't be omnipotent. And according to Frocharocha Eru couldn't kill Melkor.

#45 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

The only problem with that you stated is that Eru couldn't not beat melkor. In order to be Omnipotent a being needs to do what is impossible, no matter the circumstances or situation. If Eru is omnipotent, yep he could easily creates melkor with enough power to go agaisn't him, but he could also beat him no matter how powerful Melkor is. That's the definition of Omnipotence; Do the impossible. No paradox can explain it.

It's not like eru couldn't kill him. It's more like eru created him and gave him the power to defy him, so that they could start an epic journey for middle earth. Morgoth and eru never met in flat out combat. Eru would have decimated him if they had.

Morgoth's claim to power lies in that he actually was strong enough to corrupt an omnipotent's world in creation, creating and embodying the very concept of corruption, he knew a good amount of his thoughts (he even knew the themes for ainur iirc), he created his own themes, became capable of having sentient thoughts of his own, and made twisted creations of his own, as well as claimed arda. What he lacked was flame imperishable. (The flame of imperishable, was something only eru possesed. In order for the creatures to gain approval, eru blew it in them. This is what morgoth was looking for. If you ever wondered what gandalf said to the durin's bane/balrog on the bridge, this is what he meant by 'I'm the servant of secret fire'.)

@czarny_samael666:

If Melkor can REALLY go against him, in mean that it matters anything for us, not like fly vs sun, or something similar, it would mean that he had any chance, so Eru couldn't be omnipotent. And according to Frocharocha Eru couldn't kill Melkor.

Tbh melkor's fight against eru will be about the same as toaa's fight against LT. Like a fly in the sun.

The thing is, melkor can be interpreted as LT gone bad. He's strong, absolutely strong enough to single handedly corrupt the verse, and even considered 'the world's enemy', or 'the great enemy'. But eru, like toaa, doesn't engage in the world directly. That's why the things prolong. What happened to melkor later, is he started believing that his physical form is his real self, and restricted himself. hence he's the only valar who felt fear when captured in war of wrath. This lead to the devolvement, and the loss of power, burning by silmarillion, the infamous wound by fingolfin, subsequent loss in war of wrath and dagor dagorath.

This is why morgoth has four clear stages as I already said.

One: At the start of song, full power melkor. The one he used in this thread and the one I'm explaining about.

Two: After the song, whatever power he lost for song corruption/whatever carried to middle earth. Physical melkor. No feats except corruption, and perhaps star constellations of other valar, I'll need to check. etc.

Three: After all the things he created and maiars he corrupted, including sauron. Physical weakened melkor. He's strong enough to transform into a sky high flaming giant and destroy the two trees, as well as sun and moon (the tree essence eaten by a spirit-spider called ungoliant. NOT the one sam killed in rotk. That was shelob.) and random stuff like causing earthquakes and storms.

Four: After gaining and getting burned by silmarillion, pretty much a strong skyrim God/Aedra with a huge army of balrogs and dragons. Morgoth, as the thread is accidentally named after.

Gap between one-two>>>two-three>three-four.

It's not just because I like LOTR above all else, I'd give any such entity the same treatment, like narnia's emperor beyond the sea, (though I haven't read much of him)

A full form melkor at the beginning of song would be, imo, too much to deal with for a skyfather.

Sorry it was long, this is final argument on my side. Just ask me if any words/concepts confused you, or you need anything lotr later.

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#46 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

I understand You and even while I disagree on some points, they are irrelevant to thread because:

It's not like eru couldn't kill him.

is enough to say that they connection is irrelevant to the thread, which brings us to his feats. And his feats aren't - to my knowledge - above planetary level. I don't see him anywhere near Odin level.

#47 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

they are irrelevant to thread because:

It's not like eru couldn't kill him.

is enough to say that they connection is irrelevant to the thread, which brings us to his feats.

Sadly, this isn't even close to being the truth. Morgoth claim lies in the incredible stuff he pulled of against the said omnipotent, not actually being unkillable. Saying that eru could kill him means everything he did nearly on eru's scale is discardable is just.. wrong.

And what feats do you propose on using? literally everything he did in the form we're using is related to eru, before creation, and as an abstract. Which you seem to be intent on discarding for obscure and unrelated reasons.

If you're going to say that odin's feats>melkor's feats after he entered the physical world so he wins, that's fine by me. I actually agree.

But If you're going to extend and say odin > melkor in full form, because of he has better feats than his lesser/depowered/physical form, that'd be one hundred percent wrong, And we disagree. I'd say you're not really grasping the gap between physical and abstract forms.

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#48 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

I don't know any of his feats before reaching physical form, but remember that if they are related to Eru in any way, than it doesn't count since we have to assume that Eru could stopped him in any moment.

#49 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16559 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@princearagorn1:

I don't know any of his feats before reaching physical form, but remember that if they are related to Eru in any way, than it doesn't count since we have to assume that Eru could stopped him in any moment.

Eru/toaa can stop anyone at any moment. I don't see literally any reason how that makes the feats discard-able.

And they're obviously going to be related to eru lol, the form we're talking about, universe was just a baby.

He corrupted the whole verse while eru-ainur were creating it, built his own themes, became capable of sentient thoughts, competed against eru, made his own creations that would replace eru by him and declared the verse for his own. The only thing he lacked was flame imperishable, or eru's seal on the creation : all facts. Odin is capable of doing something like that to toaa? no. Not even close. Melkor is meant to be that powerful by eru's own will. Literally every character in fiction is meant to have a specific level of power. Saying that the omnipotent could stop them anytime so their feats aren't valid is, bluntly, ridiculous. If we're using them in a thread, we're using them with the omnipotent's approval, as powerful as they were meant to be. Not the version where omnipotent suddenly changes their mind and depowers them.

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#50 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@princearagorn1:

I don't know any of his feats before reaching physical form, but remember that if they are related to Eru in any way, than it doesn't count since we have to assume that Eru could stopped him in any moment.

Eru/toaa can stop anyone at any moment. I don't see literally any reason how that makes the feats discard-able.

And they're obviously going to be related to eru lol, the form we're talking about, universe was just a baby.

He corrupted the whole verse while eru-ainur were creating it, built his own themes, became capable of sentient thoughts, competed against eru, made his own creations that would replace eru by him and declared the verse for his own. The only thing he lacked was flame imperishable, or eru's seal on the creation : all facts. Odin is capable of doing something like that to toaa? no. Not even close. Melkor is meant to be that powerful by eru's own will. Literally every character in fiction is meant to have a specific level of power. Saying that the omnipotent could stop them anytime so their feats aren't valid is, bluntly, ridiculous. If we're using them in a thread, we're using them with the omnipotent's approval, as powerful as they were meant to be. Not the version where omnipotent suddenly changes their mind and depowers them.

If he did it agaisnt Eru's will, Eru isn't omnipotent. If he did it with Eru's will, these aren't his feats.