@dccomicsrule2011: Feats for EG Raiden: - Absolute control over time and space. (The EGs were able to transform Quan Chi into an amulet and fling him into the past to a precise position). - Can shatter an omnipresent, omnicient, and omnipotent being, and did so to create the universe (this happened before Raiden). - Able to create universal laws (they/he are/is the TOAA of the MKU) EG Raiden can do whatever "he" wants as "he" is/was the alpha and the omega.
@dccomicsrule2011:Feats for EG Raiden:- Absolute control over time and space. (The EGs were able to transform Quan Chi into an amulet and fling him into the past to a precise position).- Can shatter an omnipresent, omnicient, and omnipotent being, and did so to create the universe (this happened before Raiden).- Able to create universal laws (they/he are/is the TOAA of the MKU)EG Raiden can do whatever "he" wants as "he" is/was the alpha and the omega.
Those are some impressive feats Raiden should win this.
Also,can someone with knowledge on MK lore answer me why Shao Khan wasn't smoked by the Elder God's gold lightining in MK 9 ending(he laughed it off) and Raiden had to fight him(in-universe reason).
@dccomicsrule2011:Feats for EG Raiden:- Absolute control over time and space. (The EGs were able to transform Quan Chi into an amulet and fling him into the past to a precise position).- Can shatter an omnipresent, omnicient, and omnipotent being, and did so to create the universe (this happened before Raiden).- Able to create universal laws (they/he are/is the TOAA of the MKU)EG Raiden can do whatever "he" wants as "he" is/was the alpha and the omega.
When he's actually shown this in print, and not speculation over the net, because there some truths, but a lot of overblown trumpeting thrown in there, imo.
@Kellar21: I don`t exactly remember the Elder Gods attempting to strike down Shao Kahn with lightning but a possible reason is maybe because he was infused with many souls, and was within a realm however he later was defeated by the Elder Gods not taking true form at the end of MK9.
They said something like this through"Shao Khan,you violated our will by mergin the two realms without winning MK,now die" and then thy ykinda of empowered Raiden (little dragons flying around him),who proceeded to attack Shao Khan(with golden lightining),who laughed it off,you than have to fight his as Rainde,defeat him,and then the Elder Gods smoked him.
And/or you can read what I wrote a couple of months ago as I posted the following in another thread when someone else was basically saying/asking for the same thing you are. He was asking specifically for on-panel feats for EG Raiden and this was my response:
(Just replace "Thor" with "Odin" in the following text.)
What you are asking for is kind of impossible to present. Raiden existed as an Elder God in between games (MK4 and MK5) and he didn't actually "do" anything that could be considered an on-panel feat during that period that we know of other than looking into the future. To debate this by combat feats alone is impossible since EG Raiden has none, but we do know that during the time Raiden was an EG he had access to an omnipotent level of power and could do basically whatever he wanted granted he had the backing of his fellow EGs.
The Elder Gods of MK exist, and have always existed, as somewhat of a collective and use their powers in concert. According to what has been shown throughout the MK lore, the EGs have always fought as one. Some may look at Shinnok and say that when he attacked Earth he was still an EG, but in fact the moment he went against the EGs and entered the realms he lost his EG status. Shinnok also had his Amulet** at that time which allowed him to break the "rules" and gave him access to his/the EG power. With that lost/stolen/borrowed power, Shinnok was able to stand up to his former peers.
In Raiden's MK5 bio he chose to give up his EG status in order to enter the realms and help Earth because the other EGs weren't going to get involved and wouldn't let Raiden get involved either as an Elder God. The only time the EG's have fought or even personally involved themselves in anything canonically was:
- in the void before creation when they didn't contain the One Being, but smashed it and shattered is soul/consciousness.
- when they created the Gods and universal laws of MK.
- when they assisted Raiden in banishing Shinnok.
- in MK9 when they passed judgment on Shao Kahn.
- when they chose Scorpion as their champion and gave him the power to kill Onaga.
**- when they transformed Quan Chi into the amulet and flung him/it in to the past (may or may not be canonical).
As an EG, Raiden would have the power to do any of these things, plus the stuff he can already do, and more.
This video is not of EG Raiden, I am just posting it to show that Raiden with more power than normal could do something like this.
As an EG, Raiden would have power over time and space, life and death (enhanced), lightning and storms (enhanced), plus pretty much whatever else he wanted. As someone else said in this thread, EG Raiden by himself is nigh-omnipotent, and I'll add omnipresent, and omniscient to the list.
In a theoretical fight between EG Raiden and Thor, where the EGs said, "Go for it Raiden. Do your worst." Raiden would have the power to:
- know the future and see everything that Thor would do before he did it.
- send Mjolnir to one dimension, and Thor to another, all while being in the void (outside of normal time and space).
- unmake Thor, smashing his body and shattering his consciousness (like the EGs did the OB) ending Thor right then and there.
- destroy whatever planet they are on, leaving Thor stranded in space.
- send him to a sun and have him confined there indefinitely.
...or all those things together and a host of other things on top.
Even with Mjolnir in hand, I see no way Thor could pose a threat to EG Raiden.
If you still do trust what myself, the wiki, or the faqs are saying, there is more info out there burried in MK strategy guides, and character bio's, and other stuff like that, which everything that was linked to/written was based off of. Scans of those texts are just harder to find and/or piece together on the net as MK's story is already pretty fragmented as it is (I wish I still had my copies). The history guide I linked to though, specifically has (I pretty sure) verbatum what was said in the MK history recap in the strategy guide I referenced earlier.
@Kellar21: I remember now, and you are correct. However, the reason why Shao Kahn wasn't really affected was because he himself was very powerful and could stand on even grounds with Raiden who was only bestowed a small fraction of the Elder Gods' power as they had Raiden battle Shao Kahn and prove his worth as protector of Earthrealm. The Elder Gods don't like to get involved with the Mortal Kombat tournaments and things pertaining to the realms unless if threatened.
Also,can someone with knowledge on MK lore answer me why Shao Khan wasn't smoked by the Elder God's gold lightining in MK 9 ending(he laughed it off) and Raiden had to fight him(in-universe reason).
Before you start reading, if you don't believe that 2 omnipotent beings can coincide then I suggest you not even bother going further. MK's lore is based off a phylosophy that says just that, so if you don't understand, or disagree fundamentally with what you read here...don't blame me.
That being said, I can't say for exactly what actually happened as they never offically released anything stating such, but by comparing what transpired at the end of MK9 to the EG's past/future track record, they most likely gave Raiden "just enough" power to get the job done and then let the chips fall where they may. If you remember (or if you don't), the EGs never entered the realms at all, they just sent Raiden power through the void and spoke through him. The EG's despise (more than anything) getting involved directly in the affairs of mortals as they don't want to inadvertantly do something to help the One Being come back (the thing they shattered to create the MK cosmos). If you didn't know, the OB is the only "thing" that the EG's don't have any direct power over, and as such, it is the only thing that can threaten their supreme rule.
It has been explicitly stated that Kahn (and others like Onaga) have been / are being subconciously manipulated into doing what they are doing (ie merging realms) by the OB. Since the OB is everything and started off as one "thing", it wants everything to be one again so it can be whole. Through Kahn the OB strengthens and becomes more powerful, and as Kahn keeps merging realms and becoming stronger, it only makes him more like the OB (more immune to the EG's control).
People keep saying that at the end of MK9 Kahn took all the souls of Earth as his own; that only may have happened in MK3 (Kahn took all Earth's souls in MK3, but it was never said whether or not he absorbed them). In Mk9, Quan chi made a soulnado in order to take Earth's souls but failed to keep it active, while Kahn's forces were still dispatched like in MK3. The bottomline is (as stated by the EGs in MK9) that Kahn can do whatever he wants to/with the souls of Earth, or any other realm, as invasion (and subsequently the death of mortals and the taking of their souls) isn't a transgression against their rules. The EGs care nothing for mortal life, their/our souls, and seemingly care little for their own creations (gods like Raiden). Only when Kahn merged the realms without their consent did they get involved as those are the pieces of the OB that they wish to protect above all else.
In short, the reason Kahn could stand up to the EG's power as he did was because the OB was a part of him, which is why they removed him from the Realms entirely.
Another fun fact...
Shang Tsung and Ermac are as powerful as they are because they have a good chunk of the OB's power inside them too (IMO, i think Ermac is stronger). Though the EGs care little about safeguarding mortal souls, souls do hold power and in large enough quantities can get quite strong, hence why Shang and Kahn want/use them and why Ermac is so strong. Kahn (and Onaga) moved on from souls because they found a bigger payday by way of merging realms and gaining even more power.
@onilordasmodeus: Awesome posts! I agree and also the One Being/Elder Gods are in a sense ultimately one in the same although they are no longer bound to one another and are therefore separate as the Elder Gods shattered the One Being. Shinnok with his Amulet possesses an component of the One Being`s essence also but its more so when the Amulet is in its entirety.
@dccomicsrule2011:Feats for EG Raiden:- Absolute control over time and space. (The EGs were able to transform Quan Chi into an amulet and fling him into the past to a precise position).
Something the Silver Surfer can do isn't a good start. Odin's turned the clock back on the cosmos a few times.
- Can shatter an omnipresent, omnicient, and omnipotent being, and did so to create the universe (this happened before Raiden).
You know, being omnipotent / omniscient / omnipresent makes being beaten seem like you are none of the above.
- Able to create universal laws (they/he are/is the TOAA of the MKU)EG Raiden can do whatever "he" wants as "he" is/was the alpha and the omega.
Create what now? Franklin Richard's creates universes from scratch under his bed sheets - certainly beats the hell out of anything we've seen from the Elder Gods. The Elder Gods at best match Odin creating the cosmos from Ymir's corpse - hell if we want to run off hyperbole Odin has them beat by miles.
Surtur was planning on frying the Multiverse - when killed the only solution they could come up with all that energy released from his death was Odin getting rid of it.
Best part, none of these feats are something Raiden did or any single Elder God did.
Odin times a trillion is still an ant to an elder God. They shape the universe as they see fit. They are basically all Living Tribunals without the need to ask TOAA for permission.
I prefaced my third post in this thread with this, an maybe I should have done the same with my first and second:
Before you start reading, if you don't believe that 2 omnipotent beings can coincide, then I suggest you not even bother going further. MK's lore is based off a phylosophy that says just that, so if you don't understand, or disagree fundamentally with what you read here, don't blame me.
@whydama:@ShootingNova: @isaac_clarke:
I'm not interested in having a phylosophical debate with anyone, I'm just restating the facts about the EGs as i have come to know them. There is no hyperbole here, only the truth/facts as the MK creators have written them.
The fact that Odin, Franklin Richards, or Silver Surfer (and there are plenty more characters as well) can control time or do any host of things the EGs can do, doesn't mean they are as powerful as them, or even as powerful as each other. As some else simply put it to me, "...there are levels of infinity."
The bottomline is that Odin is a Skyfather and as such he has jurisdiction over many realms, but his power, as infinite as it is, isn't the end all be all. In his own universe there are "infinite" powers equal to his, and some that are more powerful. A similar character to Odin in the MKU is Shinnok. As a fallen EG, Shinnok can still do whatever he wants too, but he has "equals" and there is a body of power above him as well.
The EGs (as a collective) are the TOAA of the MKU, and at the same time, so is/was the One Being. As said above, if you can't / don't want to agree with this, that is your perogative, but I can't / won't spend time trying to convince you when in fact that is just how the story goes. (this is fiction after all)
@NeonGameWave said:
@onilordasmodeus: Awesome posts! I agree and also the One Being/Elder Gods are in a sense ultimately one in the same although they are no longer bound to one another and are therefore separate as the Elder Gods shattered the One Being. Shinnok with his Amulet possesses an component of the One Being`s essence also but its more so when the Amulet is in its entirety.
I guess in a sense you may be right, but the lore explicitly states that the EGs and the OB have always been (even in the void before creation) wholly separate entities. The relationship of the OB and the EGs is like the yin and yang; they are the same but opposite in everyway, therefore niether has sway over the other.
Shinnok's Amulet to this day is still a pretty strange subject to me. There is no doubt that it is the sole source of corrution in the realms, and that the OB somewhat works through it; but the Amulet is Quan Chi, and Quan Chi is the Amulet...what does that say about him? QC might be the actual soul of the OB given shape as that would explain why he's so powerful, and how / why he can do the things he does without the EGs, or any other Gods, knowing his intent or seeing his actions; but we will never know for sure until more info is put out there by the NRS team.
I prefaced my third post in this thread with this, an maybe I should have done the same with my first and second:
Before you start reading, if you don't believe that 2 omnipotent beings can coincide, then I suggest you not even bother going further. MK's lore is based off a phylosophy that says just that, so if you don't understand, or disagree fundamentally with what you read here, don't blame me.
@whydama:@ShootingNova:@isaac_clarke:
I'm not interested in having a phylosophical debate with anyone, I'm just restating the facts about the EGs as i have come to know them. There is no hyperbole here, only the truth/facts as the MK creators have written them.
Then you're failing to understand the concept of true omnipotence. Just because:
Gallery
Just because Galactus and Odin (especially Odin) have been referred to as omnipotent more times than I would care to count, doesn't mean they are in-fact omnipotent. Nigh-Omnipotent? Certainly, but the concept of omnipotence - true omnipotence doesn't mean you have an equal, you're the pinnacle of power.
The fact the one being was defeated proves he himself not omnipotent.
The fact the Elder Gods as we keep hearing had to defeat the one being together shows that they are not omnipotent.
The fact the Elder Gods are no more powerful than one another defies the concept of them being omnipotent.
What is phylosophy?
The fact that Odin, Franklin Richards, or Silver Surfer (and there are plenty more characters as well) can control time or do any host of things the EGs can do, doesn't mean they are as powerful as them, or even as powerful as each other. As some else simply put it to me, "...there are levels of infinity."
The issue with time is the fact the feat mentioned is something the Silver Surfer can do within his power. Galactus has put people in time loops to repeat the same actions for eternity and Odin on more than one occasion has undone events without much thought put into it.
Those are nigh-omnipotent beings discussing how their infinite power was infinitely less than other nigh-omnipotent beings with infinite power. Namely why we call them nigh-omnipotent, because they are in-fact not omnipotent.
The bottomline is that Odin is a Skyfather and as such he has jurisdiction over many realms, but his power, as infinite as it is, isn't the end all be all. In his own universe there are "infinite" powers equal to his, and some that are more powerful. A similar character to Odin in the MKU is Shinnok. As a fallen EG, Shinnok can still do whatever he wants too, but he has "equals" and there is a body of power above him as well.
The day Odin loses to Johnny Cage is the day I agree with any comparison to Shinnok. Given the description of the Elder Gods or the feats they have accomplished - them in their totality are more comparable to Odin. But the main difference is, they never had to contend with multiversal Elder Gods, Abstracts that define all of creation or little children that grow up to be one of the most powerful beings in said universe that can play with time-streams. Honestly with a role reversal, there is no reason to believe Odin wouldn't have pulled another Ymir - defeating the one being and using it's form to mold the cosmos or even less than that create one from scratch.
The EGs (as a collective) are the TOAA of the MKU, and at the same time, so is/was the One Being. As said above, if you can't / don't want to agree with this, that is your perogative, but I can't / won't spend time trying to convince you when in fact that is just how the story goes. (this is fiction after all)
The TOAA is in absolute control over the events of Marvel, actively having them happen as it assumes the position of the writers. The Elder Gods are not - simply being in a position that most of the time (not even all of the time) prompts them to be the top dogs of said cosmos doesn't quite cut it. Introduce a concept like Eternity into Mortal Kombat and suddenly they will become a lot smaller on the food chain.
Odin times a trillion is still an ant to an elder God. They shape the universe as they see fit. They are basically all Living Tribunals without the need to ask TOAA for permission.
An ant that could arguably repeat every single showing performed by the Elder Gods and better.
The EGs aren't omniscient. They just watching every realm from the day they created it from the OB. They wasn't aware of magic first or the living beings. They have had to reform the realms until they figured out the best/most safe. They aren't omnipotent either, I think it's obvious. Only nigh-omnipotent.
@isaac_clarke: I don't think you can rationale omnipotent, because omnipotent itself is a logically self contradictory status. You shouldn't get hung up on verbiage.
Is this a joke? The Elder Gods in MK are GOD, the original creational entity split into a few different beings. They have no limits, they are the absolute power in the MK myth. But, you are saying that Odin can beat The One Above All? How is this thread still here and not locked yet?
@isaac_clarke said:
@P0rtal said:
Odin times a trillion is still an ant to an elder God. They shape the universe as they see fit. They are basically all Living Tribunals without the need to ask TOAA for permission.
An ant that could arguably repeat every single showing performed by the Elder Gods and better.
I already stated in my disclaimer that I didn't want to have this conversation...so I'm not.
I'll just say this though, 2 things...
1) The post you presented proves only one thing, that you are trying to quantify, where therein you are trying to limit, an unquantifiable and unlimitable concept. True / Absolute omnipotence is a paradox; it isn't logical, and thus can't be explained and/or understood through logical means. Case in point: your scans. Take Thor's advise, "Tis not for the likes of you and I to understand."
"Y is absolutely omnipotent" means that "Y" can do everything absolutely. Everything that can be expressed in a string of words even if it can be shown to be self-contradictory, "Y"is not bound in action, as we are in thought by the laws of logic." This position is advanced byDescartes. It has the theological advantage of making God prior to the laws of logic. Some claim that it in addition gives rise to the theological disadvantage of making God's promises suspect. However, this claim is unfounded; for if God could do anything, then he could make it so all of his promises are genuine, and do anything, even to the contrary, while they remain so. On this account, the omnipotence paradox is a genuine paradox, but genuine paradoxes might nonetheless be so.
Just because we/you don't understand why or how 2 truly omnipotent beings could exist, doesn't mean they can't since if they are truly omnipotent they can/could do whatever they wanted to...which includes defying the words of a dictionary.
2) You are trying to debate MK with a limited knowledge of MK. Cage didn't beat Shinnok. If you believe that, then you haven't digested the whole story that was MK Armageddon.
In the most respectful way possible...Anyone who says Odin would win is trolling and shouldn't be taken seriously. TOAA in marvel is featless, yet he is for obvious reasons unbeatable. So too are the Elder Gods in MK. They are the original entity of creation and all things that was split into a few different beings who them called themselves The Elder Gods. Do not confuse MKs elder gods with Marvels Elder Gods. The Mortal Kombat Elder Gods are the supreme authorities of all things. Odin is not.
Is this a joke? The Elder Gods in MK are GOD, the original creational entity split into a few different beings. They have no limits, they are the absolute power in the MK myth. But, you are saying that Odin can beat The One Above All? How is this thread still here and not locked yet?
You're trying to argue that the Elder Gods are on the level of a being that is in control of creation - nothing happens without the TOAA writing it. The idea you have multiple omnipotent beings is the very concept of Nigh-Omnipotence and the Elder Gods have nothing akin to a latter of cosmic beings Marvel is sporting.
Quite honestly on the same boat, dropping Odin off in the Mortal Kombat Universe, there wouldn't be any beings that could stop him from replicating the exact same showings the Elder Gods are sporting. Odin's been playing God since creation, the stuff shelved off by the Elder Gods is hardly comparable.
We could go the route of why he is the All-Father, situations where he is claimed to have created all there is.
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We could go into him being the bearded man in the sky who creates humanity.
Gallery
Or his various 'look at my power feats'
Gallery
Humanity gone? Let's turn back the clock.
Gallery
We could even post scans where all planes of reality pick up on his demise. Honestly, if the Elder Gods can't even win a match of hyperbole, they aren't going to win a match based off showings. Drop them off in the Marvel universe and they would be chumps that most of the pantheons would kick around without effort.
Reality is play-dough to Odin, there isn't much he can't do bar someone else standing up to him to stop him.
Gallery
Drop him off in Mortal Kombat's universe and he would be God.
Gallery
Disagree if you want, but the Elder Gods thus far are laughable. Especially a feat-less Elder God Raiden.
@P0rtal said:
In the most respectful way possible...Anyone who says Odin would win is trolling and shouldn't be taken seriously. TOAA in marvel is featless, yet he is for obvious reasons unbeatable. So too are the Elder Gods in MK. They are the original entity of creation and all things that was split into a few different beings who them called themselves The Elder Gods. Do not confuse MKs elder gods with Marvels Elder Gods. The Mortal Kombat Elder Gods are the supreme authorities of all things. Odin is not.
Call me when Odin or any of the Aesir go down to Johnny Cage in a fight; so much for omnipotence. It's like arguing the Q from Star Trek are on the TOAA's level because of the supremacy they have over that cosmos, despite the Voyager crew having them at gun point. Hilariously enough, the Q are also sporting better feats as a combined force than the Elder Gods certainly do.
Swap them out for Odin, he'd play god far better in that cosmos.
@onilordasmodeus said:
@isaac_clarke:
I already stated in my disclaimer that I didn't want to have this conversation...so I'm not.
I'll just say this though, 2 things...
1) The post you presented proves only one thing, that you are trying to quantify, where therein you are trying to limit, an unquantifiable and unlimitable concept. True / Absolute omnipotence is a paradox; it isn't logical, and thus can't be explained and/or understood through logical means. Case in point: your scans. Take Thor's advise, "Tis not for the likes of you and I to understand."
"Y is absolutely omnipotent" means that "Y" can do everything absolutely. Everything that can be expressed in a string of words even if it can be shown to be self-contradictory, "Y"is not bound in action, as we are in thought by the laws of logic." This position is advanced byDescartes. It has the theological advantage of making God prior to the laws of logic. Some claim that it in addition gives rise to the theological disadvantage of making God's promises suspect. However, this claim is unfounded; for if God could do anything, then he could make it so all of his promises are genuine, and do anything, even to the contrary, while they remain so. On this account, the omnipotence paradox is a genuine paradox, but genuine paradoxes might nonetheless be so.
Just because we/you don't understand why or how 2 truly omnipotent beings could exist, doesn't mean they can't since if they are truly omnipotent they can/could do whatever they wanted to...which includes defying the words of a dictionary.
2) You are trying to debate MK with a limited knowledge of MK. Cage didn't beat Shinnok. If you believe that, then you haven't digested the whole story that was MK Armageddon.
You're trying to argue you can have multiple omnipotent beings and that itself is nonsense which isn't going to win me over in a debate. In the TOAA's case, you have true omnipotence - in the Elder God's case you do not. The best you can argue with them is they are nigh-omnipotent and even then it's because of how small the water pool Mortal Kombat is sporting.
There isn't much story worth digesting in Mortal Kombat anything.
@Hyperlight said:
thanks i totally agree. Odin has a lot of power but he only holds influence over so much where an elder gods are collectively omnipotent
So are the Q and Odin would wipe the floor with them (queue the Voyager crew holding them at gun point). Regardless this fight doesn't feature all of the Elder Gods, which still would be a one sided fight in Odin's favor - just a single feat-less Elder God Raiden against the All-Father. If Elder God status held some weight this might be a fight, it doesn't however given most of their showings aren't impressive to begin with - especially given the only active one Shinnok isn't doesn't perform too well.
I prefaced my third post in this thread with this, an maybe I should have done the same with my first and second:
Before you start reading, if you don't believe that 2 omnipotent beings can coincide, then I suggest you not even bother going further. MK's lore is based off a phylosophy that says just that, so if you don't understand, or disagree fundamentally with what you read here, don't blame me.
@whydama:@ShootingNova: @isaac_clarke:
I'm not interested in having a phylosophical debate with anyone, I'm just restating the facts about the EGs as i have come to know them. There is no hyperbole here, only the truth/facts as the MK creators have written them.
The fact that Odin, Franklin Richards, or Silver Surfer (and there are plenty more characters as well) can control time or do any host of things the EGs can do, doesn't mean they are as powerful as them, or even as powerful as each other. As some else simply put it to me, "...there are levels of infinity."
The bottomline is that Odin is a Skyfather and as such he has jurisdiction over many realms, but his power, as infinite as it is, isn't the end all be all. In his own universe there are "infinite" powers equal to his, and some that are more powerful. A similar character to Odin in the MKU is Shinnok. As a fallen EG, Shinnok can still do whatever he wants too, but he has "equals" and there is a body of power above him as well.
The EGs (as a collective) are the TOAA of the MKU, and at the same time, so is/was the One Being. As said above, if you can't / don't want to agree with this, that is your perogative, but I can't / won't spend time trying to convince you when in fact that is just how the story goes. (this is fiction after all)
@NeonGameWave said:
@onilordasmodeus: Awesome posts! I agree and also the One Being/Elder Gods are in a sense ultimately one in the same although they are no longer bound to one another and are therefore separate as the Elder Gods shattered the One Being. Shinnok with his Amulet possesses an component of the One Being`s essence also but its more so when the Amulet is in its entirety.
I guess in a sense you may be right, but the lore explicitly states that the EGs and the OB have always been (even in the void before creation) wholly separate entities. The relationship of the OB and the EGs is like the yin and yang; they are the same but opposite in everyway, therefore niether has sway over the other.
Shinnok's Amulet to this day is still a pretty strange subject to me. There is no doubt that it is the sole source of corrution in the realms, and that the OB somewhat works through it; but the Amulet is Quan Chi, and Quan Chi is the Amulet...what does that say about him? QC might be the actual soul of the OB given shape as that would explain why he's so powerful, and how / why he can do the things he does without the EGs, or any other Gods, knowing his intent or seeing his actions; but we will never know for sure until more info is put out there by the NRS team.
thanks i totally agree. Odin has a lot of power but he only holds influence over so much where an elder gods are collectively omnipotent
@isaac_clarke: If we are just going off feats then I would agree. but we dont need feats from TOAA to know that he can beat odin right? if we are doing that than Odin takes favor. but there are beings over odin... beings that make odin look like a lesser being. Odin doesnt govern the universe... and because of that he doesnt have absolute control. the EG's have asolute dominion over there universe(s).
You wouldnt need feats to know that Eternity is more powerful than odin beause we already now what Eternity is, his place in the universe, and that holds more weight than a skyfather of the MU.
Shinnok is also a fallen elder god s much of his power was stripped from him.
@isaac_clarke: If we are just going off feats then I would agree. but we dont need feats from TOAA to know that he can beat odin right? if we are doing that than Odin takes favor. but there are beings over odin... beings that make odin look like a lesser being. Odin doesnt govern the universe... and because of that he doesnt have absolute control. the EG's have asolute dominion over there universe(s).
You wouldnt need feats to know that Eternity is more powerful than odin beause we already now what Eternity is, his place in the universe, and that holds more weight than a skyfather of the MU.
Shinnok is also a fallen elder god s much of his power was stripped from him.
The TOAA has feats, he's appeared on panel writing more or less reality and his creation interactions with it; The Living Tribunal is a walking power feat for him to boot.
You're calling them beings over Odin despite them doing nothing worth deeming them such. And they definitely do not have absolute anything going for them, other wise people wouldn't be breaking the rules or actively plotting their downfall game to game.
Eternity most of the time is the walking embodiment of the multiverse, even Galactus at his normal levels is putting out enough juice during his fights to destroy the universe. Odin is a notch below that, but that is volumes beyond any ability displayed by the Elder Gods. I'm sticking with this:
@isaac_clarke said:
@P0rtal said:
Is this a joke? The Elder Gods in MK are GOD, the original creational entity split into a few different beings. They have no limits, they are the absolute power in the MK myth. But, you are saying that Odin can beat The One Above All? How is this thread still here and not locked yet?
You're trying to argue that the Elder Gods are on the level of a being that is in control of creation - nothing happens without the TOAA writing it. The idea you have multiple omnipotent beings is the very concept of Nigh-Omnipotence and the Elder Gods have nothing akin to a latter of cosmic beings Marvel is sporting.
Quite honestly on the same boat, dropping Odin off in the Mortal Kombat Universe, there wouldn't be any beings that could stop him from replicating the exact same showings the Elder Gods are sporting. Odin's been playing God since creation, the stuff shelved off by the Elder Gods is hardly comparable.
We could go the route of why he is the All-Father, situations where he is claimed to have created all there is.
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We could go into him being the bearded man in the sky who creates humanity.
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Or his various 'look at my power feats'
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Humanity gone? Let's turn back the clock.
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We could even post scans where all planes of reality pick up on his demise. Honestly, if the Elder Gods can't even win a match of hyperbole, they aren't going to win a match based off showings. Drop them off in the Marvel universe and they would be chumps that most of the pantheons would kick around without effort.
Reality is play-dough to Odin, there isn't much he can't do bar someone else standing up to him to stop him.
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Drop him off in Mortal Kombat's universe and he would be God.
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Disagree if you want, but the Elder Gods thus far are laughable. Especially a feat-less Elder God Raiden.
@P0rtal said:
In the most respectful way possible...Anyone who says Odin would win is trolling and shouldn't be taken seriously. TOAA in marvel is featless, yet he is for obvious reasons unbeatable. So too are the Elder Gods in MK. They are the original entity of creation and all things that was split into a few different beings who them called themselves The Elder Gods. Do not confuse MKs elder gods with Marvels Elder Gods. The Mortal Kombat Elder Gods are the supreme authorities of all things. Odin is not.
Call me when Odin or any of the Aesir go down to Johnny Cage in a fight; so much for omnipotence. It's like arguing the Q from Star Trek are on the TOAA's level because of the supremacy they have over that cosmos, despite the Voyager crew having them at gun point. Hilariously enough, the Q are also sporting better feats as a combined force than the Elder Gods certainly do.
Swap them out for Odin, he'd play god far better in that cosmos.
@onilordasmodeus said:
@isaac_clarke:
I already stated in my disclaimer that I didn't want to have this conversation...so I'm not.
I'll just say this though, 2 things...
1) The post you presented proves only one thing, that you are trying to quantify, where therein you are trying to limit, an unquantifiable and unlimitable concept. True / Absolute omnipotence is a paradox; it isn't logical, and thus can't be explained and/or understood through logical means. Case in point: your scans. Take Thor's advise, "Tis not for the likes of you and I to understand."
"Y is absolutely omnipotent" means that "Y" can do everything absolutely. Everything that can be expressed in a string of words even if it can be shown to be self-contradictory, "Y"is not bound in action, as we are in thought by the laws of logic." This position is advanced byDescartes. It has the theological advantage of making God prior to the laws of logic. Some claim that it in addition gives rise to the theological disadvantage of making God's promises suspect. However, this claim is unfounded; for if God could do anything, then he could make it so all of his promises are genuine, and do anything, even to the contrary, while they remain so. On this account, the omnipotence paradox is a genuine paradox, but genuine paradoxes might nonetheless be so.
Just because we/you don't understand why or how 2 truly omnipotent beings could exist, doesn't mean they can't since if they are truly omnipotent they can/could do whatever they wanted to...which includes defying the words of a dictionary.
2) You are trying to debate MK with a limited knowledge of MK. Cage didn't beat Shinnok. If you believe that, then you haven't digested the whole story that was MK Armageddon.
You're trying to argue you can have multiple omnipotent beings and that itself is nonsense which isn't going to win me over in a debate. In the TOAA's case, you have true omnipotence - in the Elder God's case you do not. The best you can argue with them is they are nigh-omnipotent and even then it's because of how small the water pool Mortal Kombat is sporting.
There isn't much story worth digesting in Mortal Kombat anything.
@isaac_clarke: but even if there were no feats of TOAA we wouldnt dispute that he is the most powerful being in existence becaue its his place to be so. there are rightly only like 3 feats that TOAA has had and thats rightly so because writers dont have to prove he is more powerful than everyone else.. its implied. THE EG's just dont give two f's about lesser beings so they dont do anything.
all im saying if this is purely feat based then odin ftw. but beings like the elder gods/TOAA/ Presence dont usually need feats next to people like odin because they are so much more than what he is. the only time they would need them is if they are put against other beings of there level
@isaac_clarke: but even if there were no feats of TOAA we wouldnt dispute that he is the most powerful being in existence becaue its his place to be so. there are rightly only like 3 feats that TOAA has had and thats rightly so because writers dont have to prove he is more powerful than everyone else.. its implied. THE EG's just dont give two f's about lesser beings so they dont do anything.
all im saying if this is purely feat based then odin ftw. but beings like the elder gods/TOAA/ Presence dont usually need feats next to people like odin because they are so much more than what he is. the only time they would need them is if they are put against other beings of there level
Just assuming all omnipotent beings are created equal from different universes doesn't fly well. On more than one occasion one's creation exceeds their power and proceeds to beat them senseless.
In the TOAA's case, that is the embodiment of the writers and to an extent the fans themselves. The Presence isn't omnipotent, neither are the Elder Gods - the TOAA is.
@isaac_clarke: but even if there were no feats of TOAA we wouldnt dispute that he is the most powerful being in existence becaue its his place to be so. there are rightly only like 3 feats that TOAA has had and thats rightly so because writers dont have to prove he is more powerful than everyone else.. its implied. THE EG's just dont give two f's about lesser beings so they dont do anything.
all im saying if this is purely feat based then odin ftw. but beings like the elder gods/TOAA/ Presence dont usually need feats next to people like odin because they are so much more than what he is. the only time they would need them is if they are put against other beings of there level
Just assuming all omnipotent beings are created equal from different universes doesn't fly well. On more than one occasion one's creation exceeds their power and proceeds to beat them senseless.
In the TOAA's case, that is the embodiment of the writers and to an extent the fans themselves. The Presence isn't omnipotent, neither are the Elder Gods - the TOAA is.
@LubeMan said:
@isaac_clarke said:
@LubeMan said:
Why do people keep saying that here?
Because he said so.
He actually stated he is not omnipotent and the creator of everything?
@isaac_clarke: the scan seems a lil ambiguous@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyperlight said:
@isaac_clarke: but even if there were no feats of TOAA we wouldnt dispute that he is the most powerful being in existence becaue its his place to be so. there are rightly only like 3 feats that TOAA has had and thats rightly so because writers dont have to prove he is more powerful than everyone else.. its implied. THE EG's just dont give two f's about lesser beings so they dont do anything.
all im saying if this is purely feat based then odin ftw. but beings like the elder gods/TOAA/ Presence dont usually need feats next to people like odin because they are so much more than what he is. the only time they would need them is if they are put against other beings of there level
Just assuming all omnipotent beings are created equal from different universes doesn't fly well. On more than one occasion one's creation exceeds their power and proceeds to beat them senseless.
In the TOAA's case, that is the embodiment of the writers and to an extent the fans themselves. The Presence isn't omnipotent, neither are the Elder Gods - the TOAA is.
hmm maybe.... but they are usually infinitely more powerful than all of there creations. You would expect Lucifer and Michael to beat Yahweh even though they are collectively more powerful than most other beings in there multiverse combined. we also wouldnt expect eternity/death/galactus/oblivion to team up and take down TOAA
The One Being and The Elder Gods were the original entities of MKs existence. The One Being was a jerk who fed off the power of the Elder Gods, so they forged the Kamidogu. A mystical thing that split the One Being into each realm of existence. You are actually arguing that Odin...the guy who didn't have enough power to kill Thanos...is more powerful than the TOAAs of the MK myth. I'm leaving now :P Good luck with this thread, lol. I mean no disrespect, but this battle is immensely one sided.
The One Being and The Elder Gods were the original entities of MKs existence. The One Being was a jerk who fed off the power of the Elder Gods, so they forged the Kamidogu. A mystical thing that split the One Being into each realm of existence.
There are a slew of primordial entities in Marvel that weren't omnipotent. He'll Marvel is sporting multiple previous universes one of which Galactus came from. Bor is one of the earlier deities and Odin's power dropped him with Thor one-shotting him, most of the Elder Gods in Marvel are multiversal entities to boot. Hercules's sporting the power from a few divine items being consumed by Chao was powerful enough to reboot all of creation.
You're big thing for the Elder Gods in Mortal Kombat is they built a plot device to beat someone who was 'feeding' on them. Wow what a snazzy feat.
You are actually arguing that Odin...the guy who didn't have enough power to kill Thanos...is more powerful than the TOAAs of the MK myth.
Oh I love this game, mentioning things out of context and pretending you an argument. I'd rather not get into how durable Thanos is or how powerful he is, but a good example of what kind of being he is at that time is right over here:
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But let's skip to the fight in question, where Thanos apparently stands up to Odin attempting to kill him.
Thanos (and Drax+Silver Surfer)
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What's this? Thanos struggling to stand up? Odin without scratch? After dropping the Silver Surfer and Drax in a single shot? Simply impressed Thanos is still standing?
Brilliant argument thus far, Odin not attempting to destroy anyone here - simply prompting them to yield as he describes and being impressed with the fact Thanos is still breathing prompts the reaction that he cannot in-fact kill Thanos - despite being unharmed and still very able to continue fighting him without any fear for his own safety as he can tank anything Thanos throws at him.
Odin could stand there all day and not go down to Thanos, Thanos on the other hand can't. A better match-up was Galactus for Odin - who as I recall humiliated Thanos.
But I guess Elder Gods can only go down to beings on Johnny Cage's level of power, amiright?
I'm leaving now :P Good luck with this thread, lol. I mean no disrespect, but this battle is immensely one sided.
I wholeheartedly agree. A slew of feat less Elder God's or in this case just the one without a feat to his name vs arguably one of the most powerful beings in Marvel's universe is immensely one sided. Have fun. =)
Maybe one day Odin can join the level of power Johnny Cage in your eyes or at least the Elder Gods will have something to show for their supremacy outside everybody under the sun defying them or plotting their destruction.
@Hyperlight said:
@isaac_clarke: the scan seems a lil ambiguous@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyperlight said:
@isaac_clarke: but even if there were no feats of TOAA we wouldnt dispute that he is the most powerful being in existence becaue its his place to be so. there are rightly only like 3 feats that TOAA has had and thats rightly so because writers dont have to prove he is more powerful than everyone else.. its implied. THE EG's just dont give two f's about lesser beings so they dont do anything.
all im saying if this is purely feat based then odin ftw. but beings like the elder gods/TOAA/ Presence dont usually need feats next to people like odin because they are so much more than what he is. the only time they would need them is if they are put against other beings of there level
Just assuming all omnipotent beings are created equal from different universes doesn't fly well. On more than one occasion one's creation exceeds their power and proceeds to beat them senseless.
In the TOAA's case, that is the embodiment of the writers and to an extent the fans themselves. The Presence isn't omnipotent, neither are the Elder Gods - the TOAA is.
hmm maybe.... but they are usually infinitely more powerful than all of there creations. You would expect Lucifer and Michael to beat Yahweh even though they are collectively more powerful than most other beings in there multiverse combined. we also wouldnt expect eternity/death/galactus/oblivion to team up and take down TOAA
Apparently Michael and Lucifer together are as powerful as the Presence and more or less as I recall created all there is for the DC multiverse to begin with.
Eternity, Galactus and Death can't beat the TOAA. His position is true omnipotence, the closest being to that was HoTU Thanos.
Honestly, the Elder Gods wouldn't stand up well to most of the nigh-omnipotent beings out of Marvel. Much-less Elder God Raiden.
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