#1 Edited by loggi (20 posts) - - Show Bio

The Presence and the Stan Lee gets into an argument over who's got the bigger sticks.

#2 Posted by Alyssabird (1363 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one, just cuz

#3 Posted by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. While the endless represent fundamental forces of the universe, the entirety of team one is essentially the universe itself. Eternity is everything that exists. Infinity is everything that will exist. Oblivion is the absence of existence and Death is everything that has existed. They are totality and each of the Endless falls under a banner represented by one of them. If anything, in a crossover the endless would simply be abstracts of each of these beings in my opinion.

#4 Edited by Dextersinister (6520 posts) - - Show Bio

Are they both omniversal or are the marvel abstracts simply universal?

#5 Edited by loggi (20 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery: I disagree. But, if there is a way of a measuring stick between these two teams, Dream is almost a match for Lucifer even in his weakened state. And Lucifer is possibly the strongest force in the DC universe, right under Elaine and Presence. While the Abstracts themselves are the universe, they are also governed by Destiny, and possibly even Death.

#6 Posted by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

@loggi: Dream was weakened or Lucifer was weakened?

#7 Posted by loggi (20 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery said:

@loggi: Dream was weakened or Lucifer was weakened?

Dream.

#8 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate. I don't see what either team can do to permanently put down the other.

#9 Posted by Saren (25139 posts) - - Show Bio

Dream was never a match for Lucifer in any state. Long after he restored himself to full power, he himself admitted to being frightened of Lucifer and claimed that if they got into a fight, Lucy would destroy him. The second Dream was supposed to stop the Silk Man and Perdissa from using dream-fueled demons to attack Lucifer, but since Lucy wanted to deal with them himself, he went to the Dreaming and tossed veiled death threats around. Dream backed off.

Moderator
#10 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery said:

Team 1. While the endless represent fundamental forces of the universe, the entirety of team one is essentially the universe itself. Eternity is everything that exists. Infinity is everything that will exist. Oblivion is the absence of existence and Death is everything that has existed. They are totality and each of the Endless falls under a banner represented by one of them. If anything, in a crossover the endless would simply be abstracts of each of these beings in my opinion.

This

#11 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

How is team 1 putting down Endless?

#12 Posted by overachiver (89 posts) - - Show Bio

The Endless stomp effortlessly

#13 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery said:

Team 1. While the endless represent fundamental forces of the universe, the entirety of team one is essentially the universe itself. Eternity is everything that exists. Infinity is everything that will exist. Oblivion is the absence of existence and Death is everything that has existed. They are totality and each of the Endless falls under a banner represented by one of them. If anything, in a crossover the endless would simply be abstracts of each of these beings in my opinion.

I agree with this. Only 2 Abstracts Missing is Phoenix (Creator of Life and Change) and Galactus (the Balance).... Both of them are essintial to the Universe as well.

#14 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

You can't kill Death until everything in the universe is dead. The Endless are quite powerful.

#15 Posted by Dextersinister (6520 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@beautifulrevery said:

Team 1. While the endless represent fundamental forces of the universe, the entirety of team one is essentially the universe itself. Eternity is everything that exists. Infinity is everything that will exist. Oblivion is the absence of existence and Death is everything that has existed. They are totality and each of the Endless falls under a banner represented by one of them. If anything, in a crossover the endless would simply be abstracts of each of these beings in my opinion.

I agree with this. Only 2 Abstracts Missing is Phoenix (Creator of Life and Change) and Galactus (the Balance).... Both of them are essintial to the Universe as well.

The endless are multiversal, team 1 is the entirety of simply 1 universe. There are multiple versions of team 1 but there is only 1 version of each of the endless.

#16 Posted by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@beautifulrevery said:

Team 1. While the endless represent fundamental forces of the universe, the entirety of team one is essentially the universe itself. Eternity is everything that exists. Infinity is everything that will exist. Oblivion is the absence of existence and Death is everything that has existed. They are totality and each of the Endless falls under a banner represented by one of them. If anything, in a crossover the endless would simply be abstracts of each of these beings in my opinion.

I agree with this. Only 2 Abstracts Missing is Phoenix (Creator of Life and Change) and Galactus (the Balance).... Both of them are essintial to the Universe as well.

The endless are multiversal, team 1 is the entirety of simply 1 universe. There are multiple versions of team 1 but there is only 1 version of each of the endless.

And that means what? Mikaboshi(Chaos King), an aspect of Oblivion destroyed 98% of the marvel multiverse. Just because there are multiple versions does not make them weaker than a singular entity.

#17 Edited by Dextersinister (6520 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery said:

@Dextersinister said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@beautifulrevery said:

Team 1. While the endless represent fundamental forces of the universe, the entirety of team one is essentially the universe itself. Eternity is everything that exists. Infinity is everything that will exist. Oblivion is the absence of existence and Death is everything that has existed. They are totality and each of the Endless falls under a banner represented by one of them. If anything, in a crossover the endless would simply be abstracts of each of these beings in my opinion.

I agree with this. Only 2 Abstracts Missing is Phoenix (Creator of Life and Change) and Galactus (the Balance).... Both of them are essintial to the Universe as well.

The endless are multiversal, team 1 is the entirety of simply 1 universe. There are multiple versions of team 1 but there is only 1 version of each of the endless.

And that means what? Mikaboshi(Chaos King), an aspect of Oblivion destroyed 98% of the marvel multiverse. Just because there are multiple versions does not make them weaker than a singular entity.

It was actually just 616 not the multiverse and even then he was absorbing dieties so was effectively using the universes own power against it rather than simply oblivions power.

It does matter if Eternity was the representation of all existence rather than just 616 he would be stronger than he is because he would represent all of existence. Death of the endless for example represents death in the entire DC multiverse.

#18 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Oblivion representing Multiversal, anyway? I still don't see what they could do to the Endless.

#19 Posted by Dextersinister (6520 posts) - - Show Bio

@Needlebay said:

Isn't Oblivion representing Multiversal, anyway? I still don't see what they could do to the Endless.

Universal as well apparently.

#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister: I remember a debate with these guys already and they are multiversal yet cease to be after all life is gone. Well Oblivion would still be around with the destruction of the Universe or Universes. so He wins.

#21 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Dextersinister: I remember a debate with these guys already and they are multiversal yet cease to be after all life is gone. Well Oblivion would still be around with the destruction of the Universe or Universes. so He wins.

This.

#22 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

Death can survive at the end of the universe, so it's more than likely a stalemate.

#23 Edited by I_am_Warlock (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

It was actually just 616 not the multiverse and even then he was absorbing dieties so was effectively using the universes own power against it rather than simply oblivions power.

It does matter if Eternity was the representation of all existence rather than just 616 he would be stronger than he is because he would represent all of existence. Death of the endless for example represents death in the entire DC multiverse.

What Chaos King destroyed during Chaos War was indeed 98% of the marvel multiverse as oppose to the universe. Not sure where people get universe from when Cho clearly says multiverse, and the same was stated in Thor Annual recently.

Then I see no reason to believe just because their status is mutiversal means anything at all. If you want to showcase the power of Endless use feats, and the best I can think of is a small portion of Dream’s power being used to create universe. That’s certainly doesn’t put you at multiversal level.

@Dextersinister said:

@Needlebay said:

Isn't Oblivion representing Multiversal, anyway? I still don't see what they could do to the Endless.

Universal as well apparently.

Oblivion is the absence of existence, nothingness and has NEVER been universal, not sure where you get all these craps from. I get a feeling you just dont like Marvel.

#24 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Oblivion or Death (MU) have any feats that suggest they can destroy the Endless?

#25 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

@Needlebay said:

Does Oblivion or Death (MU) have any feats that suggest they can destroy the Endless?

The Endless needs to have Eternity and Death in existence in order to exist themselves. If Oblivion wins over Death and Eternity or if the Endless somehow send Death and Eternity into Oblivion, the Endless will cease to exist. In the end, Oblivion is the 1st and the last thing here.

#26 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but exactly how does Obilvion defeat Death? She can exist at the end of the universe from what I remember.

#27 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

@Needlebay: Oh no.... Read Secret War II. The Beyonder explains brilliantly how the abstracts work. That's how he easily killed Death. He basically sent her entirety and very concept into Oblivion. When Beyonder killed Death, no one was able to die. All living things became immortal.

#28 Posted by Needlebay (1967 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, I read SW. One of my favs. I believe the same thing was done in Earth X, right?

#29 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

@Needlebay: I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with Earth X because at that time, I was focused more on Forever.

#30 Posted by Dextersinister (6520 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Dextersinister: I remember a debate with these guys already and they are multiversal yet cease to be after all life is gone. Well Oblivion would still be around with the destruction of the Universe or Universes. so He wins.

Maybe some writers have referenced them as multiversal but that opens up plot holes where Galactus is involved, he was there when these entities where created and there are multiple versions of Galactus in other universes.

#31 Posted by Dextersinister (6520 posts) - - Show Bio

@I_am_Warlock: Chaos War was stated as universal if it was also stated as multiversal then that's the writers fault for being inconsistent, if it was multiversal then the last 2 percent wouldn't have been shown to be simply part of one universe with one Earth.

The use feats arguments if redundant when it comes to abstracts of this level even and when what they represent is more important, if we went by feats alone then simply punching would put you ahead of most abstracts. Being multiversal is what you represent and neither team are big on feats with the exception of Death of the endless if we take into account that Nekron is another side of death.

Oblivion is universal, he's a concept and the end of a universe is still a big deal and rightly represented as so. Certain X-Men titles are the only comics I will buy consistently and even then it doesn't matter which I like more if my reasoning is good enough that's all that matters.

#32 Posted by I_am_Warlock (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

@I_am_Warlock: Chaos War was stated as universal if it was also stated as multiversal then that's the writers fault for being inconsistent, if it was multiversal then the last 2 percent wouldn't have been shown to be simply part of one universe with one Earth.

Saying it was writers fault certainly isnt a valid argument. The destruction was said to be multiversal by Cho, further backed by the statement from Oblivion during Thor Annual 01. On panel evidence definitely over-rides personal judgement. I will however still give you the leeway if you can show me a bio where it was stated to be universal destruction, because i have not read every pertaining bios.

And why is it hard to believe that the last remaining 616 universe would represent 2% of the marvel prime multiverse. After all its the oldest universe and hence the biggest.

The use feats arguments if redundant when it comes to abstracts of this level even and when what they represent is more important, if we went by feats alone then simply punching would put you ahead of most abstracts. Being multiversal is what you represent and neither team are big on feats with the exception of Death of the endless if we take into account that Nekron is another side of death.

I dont think its redundant at all. We have Oblivion who has operated at multiversal level. We have Chaos King who was stated to have consumed 98% of marvel multiverse, we have Malestorm another aspect of Oblivion who was un-affect by IG when he faced Thanos, the same IG defeated a whole bunch of abstracts with ease.

Oblivion is universal, he's a concept and the end of a universe is still a big deal and rightly represented as so. Certain X-Men titles are the only comics I will buy consistently and even then it doesn't matter which I like more if my reasoning is good enough that's all that matters.

Oblivion has never been universal. Oblivion represent the void beyond creation, and there is but 1 oblivion as opposed to various versions of Eternity and Death.

Reasoning certainly is lacking from where i see it, you are saying Death of Endless who have domain over Dc multiverse (which consists of but 52 universes) are above Abstracts, one of whom have operated above Multiversal level. Team 1 has better feats , by far, and just because there is but 1 Endless in whole DC multiverse doesnt automatically mean they should be more powerful than being that are more than one.

#33 Posted by Deadgod (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 easily , i don't think Endless can do anything to them

#34 Posted by NeonGameWave (9141 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.

#35 Posted by Calildur (77 posts) - - Show Bio

well i dont think any of them can KO anyone, maybe TKO, like how Dream died. In this case i go with versatility to do that. The Endless have boundless power over their. Also they are more than one aspect, for example, Delirium is also Delight. Who considered to have knowledge far greater than Destiny. as much featless Destruction is he well on the level of Oblivion. Universal force never case to exist forever, but killing one for a second is possible. Thus the Endless might can trick the other, might takes time, but possible. However the other can do it as well, so at the very best Stalemate