Obito and Madara vs Itachi and Sasuke

Details

Combatants: Itachi and Madara are Edo Tensei (Healing, unlimited chakra, little to no pain, etc.) as they appear in the Fourth Ninja World War at the moment of their revival (No Ten-Tails Madara for instance, he does have the Rinnegan however, this was an edit, I didn't specify that it wasn't actually his eyes), Itachi's Susano'o is not in it's "perfect" form but is capable of complete form and has Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror, Sasuke has EMS and his perfect Susano'o (Giant and armor clad version), Obito is not 10-Tails Jinchuuriki and has one Sharingan (his own, Mangekyou) and one Rinnegan.

Rules/Conditions: Win by killing or otherwise incapacitating both opponents. Gedo statue cannot be summoned or transformed into the 10-tails, however non-tailed beast summons are still summonable. Izanagi/Izanami are strictly off limits. Both parties have full knowledge of their opponent's style, techniques, and personalities, all combatants are STRICTLY in character and there is NO deviation from this (For example, Sasuke doesn't suddenly decide to show compassion to his opponents), speculation is allowed but only to a reasonable extent (Example: Do NOT use this: "They never said Obito couldn't use Susano'o so he can.")

Battleground: Same setting for the Fourth Ninja War (Mostly flat ground, debris scattered across the field, some natural effects such as boulders, trees, small streams, etc.), both parties start with their partner right next to them facing their opponents 25 meters away, battle starts as soon as the first person decides to attack (so therefor prep/discussion time is possible between partners)

Author's Notes

Please keep your posts informative and well structured. Please do not bash other people for having bias, we can't all be perfect. Try to follow up any opinionated statement with related facts or supporting theories. This is for fun discussion, not fan-flaming! I look forward to any responses!

Madara could probably solo the team.

Madara is a multi team buster..... He could probably solo

And in Edo tense I he still had a small degree of control of the nine tails.... Is that a factor?

Madara and Obito win a difficult fight. Although Itachi's totsuka tsurugi will be a problem due to its fuin jutsu.

Limbo : Border jail

@nyas: Can he use that in his base reanimation form? I thought he only was able to use it after being completely revived and regaining his actual Rinnegan. The Madara involved is in his base Edo Tensei form, not completely revived.

I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use it. Unless you are basing this strictly on feats.

@nyas: I know it's kind of lame to use Narutopedia as a source, but it's certainly one of the quickest ways to get information. Apparently he didn't have full access to Rinnegan techniques until he was revived and got his original eyes. "When brought back with the Impure World Reincarnation, Madara was unable to access all of his Rinnegan abilities. It was only after being revived that he could summon and control the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path, suspend targets in the air,^[91] and generate a corporeal invisible shadow to aid him in battle, which was powerful enough to knock down all nine tailed beasts.^[92] Upon regaining both of his Rinnegan, Madara was able to produce up to four shadows to aid him"

But there is no proof that he couldn't use them, just that he didn't use them.

So Yeah, it really comes down to whether you want to stick to feats or not.

http://i17.mangapanda.com/naruto/661/naruto-4720239.jpg

Perhaps when Madara says "Oh well...guess that's all I'm capable of at my current level" is alluding to the fact that he's not at his full capacity when it comes to his Rinnegan? I don't know. Just food for thought. This is a debate after all.

@saint_of_origin said:

@nyas said:

@saint_of_origin said:

@nyas: I know it's kind of lame to use Narutopedia as a source, but it's certainly one of the quickest ways to get information. Apparently he didn't have full access to Rinnegan techniques until he was revived and got his original eyes. "When brought back with the Impure World Reincarnation, Madara was unable to access all of his Rinnegan abilities. It was only after being revived that he could summon and control the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path, suspend targets in the air,^[91] and generate a corporeal invisible shadow to aid him in battle, which was powerful enough to knock down all nine tailed beasts.^[92] Upon regaining both of his Rinnegan, Madara was able to produce up to four shadows to aid him"

But there is no proof that he couldn't use them, just that he didn't use them.

So Yeah, it really comes down to whether you want to stick to feats or not.

Perhaps when Madara says "Oh well...guess that's all I'm capable of at my current level" is alluding to the fact that he's not at his full capacity when it comes to his Rinnegan? I don't know. Just food for thought. This is a debate after all.

That could be a reference to him only possessing one Rinnegan at the time, since we know that rinnegans show their real power when you posses both. Interesting nonetheless.

THIS IS TAKEN FROM OP.

speculation is allowed but only to a reasonable extent (Example: Do NOT use this: "They never said Obito couldn't use Susano'o so he can.")

Itachi and Sasuke had trouble with Kabuto so they certainly aren't taking Madara and Obito. Basically you're asking Sasuke and Itachi to do what Naruto, Guy, Bee, and Kakashi could not. This isn't even close.

@roronuffy: This is without the Gedo Statue/10 Tails and Jinchuuriki involved. You forget that even KCM Naruto alone could've dominated Obito if he didn't have the Tailed Beasts/Gedo Statue. I think it's a pretty fair fight considering Sasuke has his Perfect Susano'o, which is a pretty good counter to Madara's giant scale ninjutsu. And Itachi is probably the smartest one here and a great strategist when it comes to taking techniques apart and understanding how to neutralize them. Obito isn't really that powerful, and neither is Itachi. The power players here (due to scale) are Sasuke and Madara. That's not to say the other partners aren't a threat. Obito has Kamui and Itachi has Totsuka Sword/Yata Mirror. There are a lot more factors to consider than Madara being so powerful there's not even a discussion.

Edit: Also, on the Kabuto point, they absolutely HAD to immobilize him without killing him, which is actually extremely difficult to do while fighting someone who wants to kill/neutralize you. Not to mention I'd hardly call it having trouble, they both were none the worse for wear after Itachi activated Izanami.

Team 2.

When you say perfect susanoo you mean sasukes flying suasnoo he unlocked when he meant the sage? Without limbo I think sasuke and Itachi have a shot. Unless sasuke gets blitzed I think he can at least hold Madara off long enough for Itachi to use genjutsu on Obito. Unless Obito BFR's his spirit weapons I think the Itachi and sasuke duo.

@jashro44: Yes. Fully stabilized Perfect Susano'o. http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140515010651/naruto/answers/images/a/a7/Sasuke's_Perfect_Susanoo.JPG <---For reference.

Edit: Could Sasuke use Perfect Susano'o before meeting SotSP? Or did Sasuke/Naruto beat Obito AFTER meeting him? Cause I know he used it in the battle with Obito to cover Kurama and break Juubito's Sword of Nunoboko.

@saint_of_origin: I think the brothers can win....

Team 1 handily.

@saint_of_origin: Obito has the Rinnegan so he is definitely above Sasuke. Nagato took KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time and was about to kill them easily before Itachi also stepped in. Rinnegan plus Kamui is way to much for Itachi and Sasuke to handle on top of Madara.

Perfect Susanoo means nothing since Obito's Kamui can pass right through it and Madara created 10 Susanoo's vs the kages and Naruto like it was nothing. This isn't a fair fight and the brothers don't stand a chance even against Madara alone.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B3GVybuluLY

This video shows just how outmatched they are, especially considering Naruto is there too and they still are powerless

@roronuffy: Obito has ONE Rinnegan. He's not really that powerful on his own. You forget Itachi is the absolute master of Genjutsu. Even against someone like Obito, he can alter his perception of time ever so slightly to cause him to make a fatal mistake. Not to mention how fast Itachi is with keeping the pressure on opponents. I honestly think the fight could go either way.

@saint_of_origin: If Itachi was "absolute master of genjutsu" then why in all his time with akatski that he was secretly working against them did he not take down Obito? He had all the time he needed and even knew "Tobi" was the real leader.

No Itachi can't take Obito with even one Rinnegan, which is ridiculously powerful. Obito was easily handling Bee and Naruto even without the Juubi or Madara and he'd handle Itachi.

Also you keep forgetting this is the same Madara that beat 5 kages and Naruto at the same time effortlessly. What can Sasuke or Itachi do to him?

@saint_of_origin: If Itachi was "absolute master of genjutsu" then why in all his time with akatski that he was secretly working against them did he not take down Obito? He had all the time he needed and even knew "Tobi" was the real leader.

No Itachi can't take Obito with even one Rinnegan, which is ridiculously powerful. Obito was easily handling Bee and Naruto even without the Juubi or Madara and he'd handle Itachi.

Also you keep forgetting this is the same Madara that beat 5 kages and Naruto at the same time effortlessly. What can Sasuke or Itachi do to him?

Itachi isn't taking Obito.

Madara and Obito win this

@roronuffy: He didn't attack Obito for a lot of reasons. He was sick, not at full strength, had a niche in Akatsuki, and had plans of his own. This Is Edo Itachi, with no secret hidden from him. Itachi almost killed Obito from beyond the grave, Obito admitted if he didn't keep secrets from Itachi he would be dead.

@saint_of_origin: He also only had one eye at the time. And regardless if Itachi was so good at genjutsu then he he still could have gotten every secret from Obito, but he couldn't and didn't.

Of course none of this matters since Madara solos.

@roronuffy: What jutsu does Madara have to solo two of the most talented Uchiha besides himself? Facts please, not just opinions

Edit: Obito didn't have one eye. It was revealed in his Konan battle that he had two.

@saint_of_origin:

Itachi wasn't always sick when he joined the Akatsuki and that time Itachi almost killed Obito through Sasuke is irrelevant since Obito's guard was down and that was a secret of Itachi's own which failed. Furthermore, Obito was not at full strength or was never really prepped for battle until the war started. Also, as a side note, him being sick and not being at full power would be the same thing in this case.

@m_man: How would it be the same? We're talking about Edo Itachi. His one major flaw as a ninja is gone, which was his lack of stamina. Itachi could easily be a match for Obito.

@saint_of_origin:

I meant in the context you were referring to not in the battle. You said one of the reasons he didn't take Obito down was because he "was sick" and "not at full strength" which is the same thing in this case so stating this was pretty repetitive.

He'd be a problem, sure, but what can Itachi really do against Obito and Kamui/rinnegan?

@m_man: Itachi has lightning fast reflexes as well as extreme mastery over exploding KBs. He could probably easily trick Obito into attempting to absorb one of those and boom, bye bye face for him. This is only something I am coming up with, Itachi probably could get much more creative

@saint_of_origin:

Uhhh you do realize Obito is an exceptional sharingan user himself and has used it just as well as Itachi right? Perhaps not the genjutsu aspect but he is clearly capable and very knowledgeable of genjutsu and has avoided being trapped countless times.

Exploding KBs wont be of any use. Obito would Kamui the clone before it even exploded. Konan needed hundreds maybe thousands of paper bombs which is the only reason an explosion landed when Obito tried to Kamui her and even then he lived.

@m_man: Itachi had precise timing. And Obito is not as exceptional as Itachi. At the age where Obito awoke his Sharingan, Itachi had already mastered it. He's good, yes. But I think you're selling Itachi a bit short here. Obito got cornered by a trap from the likes of Naruto/Kakashi/Guy. I think Itachi's plans would suffice.

Edit: Another plausible strategy would be Itachi having Obito Kamui a clone, having it wait in his dimension, and attack the parts of Obito's body that appear in the dimension. Kamui is not that great of a technique, once you understand it.

@saint_of_origin:

Obito's Kamui is capable of working on Minato one of the fastest ninja's in Naruto and certainly faster than Itachi. If Minato could get sucked in, do you really think Itachi yet alone a clone of Itachi would work? Itachi's childhood is irrelevant and that's terrible ABC logic. That's like if I said, because Obito fought Minato in his teen years and Itachi never fought any Hokage-level shinobi in the same, therefore Obito is stronger.

Dude, seriously, just look at who've they fought. Itachi needed Sasuke to fight Kabuto while Obito fought BM Naruto, Kakashi, Guy and Killer Bee.

BM Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, Killer Bee >>>>>>>>>>>Kabuto.

You can't be serious right now.

@m_man: Itachi didn't need Sasuke, if you recall he was rather hesitant for Sasuke to get involved. Itachi held his own against KCM Naruto AND Killer Bee. Itachi was fast enough to keep up with KCM Naruto who's been stated to be greater than or equal in speed to Minato, not to mention he has the Sharingan. And his childhood is not irrelevant. It shows just how much of a true heir to the Sharingan he is. Obito needed the tailed beasts to go toe to toe with all of those people you mentioned. Itachi could easily outsmart and out maneuver Obito.

@m_man: Also, in the strategy I said Itachi would intentionally have a clone get sucked into Kamui's dimension so that he could attack Obito even if he was attempting to phase through an attack in the main dimension. Obito just isn't smart enough to outsmart or even keep pace with Itachi.

Because it was a deal IIRC. Obito promised to leave the leaf village alone as long as Itachi helped get revenge on the uchiha. The fact Obito kept his word shows he was afraid of Itachi if anything. As for why Itachi didn't try to take Obito down there could be lots of reasons. As you said itachi knew Obito was calling the shots, as good as Itachi is he isn't taking pain and Obito at the same time or the entire akatsuki....

@saint_of_origin:

Itachi didn't need Sasuke, if you recall he was rather hesitant for Sasuke to get involved.

Actually, he absolutely needed Sasuke. Multiple times Kabuto took down Itachi and forced him to regenerate, at that point he could have rewrote the tag in Itachi as Kabuto stated.

Itachi held his own against KCM Naruto AND Killer Bee.

That's nice, but who cares? BM Naruto, Killer Bee, Kakashi, Guy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Not to mention Nagato was on his side at the time.

Itachi was fast enough to keep up with KCM Naruto who's been stated to be greater than or equal in speed to Minato, not to mention he has the Sharingan.

Naruto wanted to talk to Itachi about his mission in Konaha and wasn't even interested in a serious fight, not to mentioon that it was basic taijutsu. And again holding your own very, VERY, briefly against KCM Naruto =/= BM Naruto, Killer Bee, Kakashi, Guy.

And his childhood is not irrelevant. It shows just how much of a true heir to the Sharingan he is.

I don't care what he did in the past, what I care about is what they both could do now in a fight. Again, I could say how much stronger Obito is because he fought Minato as a teenager with that logic.

Obito needed the tailed beasts to go toe to toe with all of those people you mentioned. Itachi could easily outsmart and out maneuver Obito.

Did you even see their fight? The tailed beast got absorbed by GM pretty early on and Obito fought them by himself from that point on and had the upper hand for the majority, almost won and WOULD have won if it wasn't for the fact that Kakashi also possessed Kamui.

Are you for real dude?

@jashro44:

I agree he's not soloing the entirety of the Akatsuki but Obito was not afraid of Itachi at all. I mean seriously do you really let a guy your afraid of into your organization? He invited him in because he wanted Itachi to help gather the tailed beasts knowing he'd be an obstacle later on but planned for Sasuke to kill Itachi just like Itachi had wanted from the get-go.

@m_man: They also didn't completely understand how Kamui works. Which is not the case in this fight. Again, if I can come up with a strategy that pretty much stops Kamui from being effective, then I'm sure as Hell Itachi can come up with more

@saint_of_origin:

Konan had literally years of analyzing and studying Kamui, massive amounts of one-sided prep, 600 BILLION PAPER BOMBS, turf advantage and STILL lost to Obito. And this is pre-war Obito.

And if Kakashi didn't have Kamui even knowing how it worked he would have lost as none of them had any chance of harming him. Simply knowing how Kamui works isn't enough. You're looking at Kamui in a very superficial way evidence by the fact that you think you could find an easy work around just like that. Do you honsetly believe you're more intelligent than an elite shinobi?

Without Kamui or time-space jutsu, HOW can Itachi tag Obito. Don't just use the cop-out "oh he'll figure something out".

@m_man: I just said how. Trick Obito so he'll have a KB get absorbed into Kamui's dimension, and whenever Obito tries phasing,the clone can attack him. Or do you not understand how Kamui works?

@saint_of_origin:

And I explained all the reasons why exploding clones wouldn't work. Itachi would have to be significantly faster than Minato which he isn't.

@m_man: You're not getting it. The clone won't explode. It will just camp in Kamui's dimension and slash whatever shows up. This forces Obito to not use Kamui, at the risk of being attacked in the very dimension he uses to dodge attacks.

@saint_of_origin:

He'd know it was a clone he Kamui'd if the real Itachi shows up which is the only way he would use Kamui outside his dimension at which point he could easily just enter his Kamui world and dispatch the clone since it's significantly weaker than Itachi. Try again?

@m_man: How would he know?

@saint_of_origin:

Like I said, when the real Itachi reveals himself.

In Obito's fight with BM Naruto and the rest, they needed to do something far more intricate. They needed Kakashi to Kamui a shadow clone but make it seem like he actually Kamui'd it's rasengan then time it just as one of Obito's constructs seemed to have landed.

It's not as simple as just replacing yourself with a shadow clone otherwise Naruto would have solo'd and wouldn't have needed Kakashi.

Try again?

@m_man: Of course my plans are not enough. Again, these are plans I'm coming up with. Itachi has proven himself far more intelligent than any Shinobi we've seen. So it's fairly obvious he could come up with an effective strategy knowing how the technique operates.

@saint_of_origin:

Of course my plans are not enough. Again, these are plans I'm coming up with.

Again, just saying he'll come up with something is a cop-out.

Itachi has proven himself far more intelligent than any Shinobi we've seen. So it's fairly obvious he could come up with an effective strategy knowing how the technique operates.

No he's not depending on what you mean by intelligence. Shikamaru is a far better strategist. In the databook, Shikamaru's intellegence is ranked 5, same as Itachi. Kakashi's is rated 4.5 which is just below Itachi's and yet Kakashi could literally do nothing to Obito without aid and Kamui. What can Itachi do if he's just barely above Kakashi's intellect?

Your entire argument seems to boil down to Itachi wins because he's Itachi without any substance.