All out battle to the death, for the sake of the galaxies future, Standard equipment, battle takes place in a forest near a field in the Naboo.
Obi wan(ROTS) vs Darth Vader(ROTS) vs Starkiller(TFU)
Yoda is the best duelist in the Order, and Mace's statement is, once again, being taken out of context.
@Silver2467
said:For dueling, Yoda is named the best swordmaster the Order had ever seen.
--Taken from Insider #62To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.
Nick Gillard stating that Yoda is the best duelist in the Order.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."
Yoda is the best duelist out of the Council members.--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow HunterThough it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.
For fights, Yoda has beaten Mace.--Taken from the Power of the Jedi SourcebookMaster Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
Yoda also defeated Dooku twice, on one of which occasions, Dooku's powers were augmented by Vjun's Force energies, and he dueled as an equal with Palpatine.
And it is especially nonsensical to misrepresent the context of Mace's statement. When Mace identified Obi-Wan as a notable lightsaber duelist, he was referring to Obi-Wan's ability to defeat Grievous. Soresu would provide the perfect defensive advantage he would need in order to duel Grievous, as most other forms lack the protective capabilities to repel four lightsabers concurrently. Mace himself dueled Grievous and, because of his specific lightsaber form against the General's, was unable to beat him. Obi-Wan was the ideal choice due to his form, not his inherent skills. Whether Obi-Wan is a more skilled duelist than Mace is debatable (I would probably favor Mace though); regardless, he is not a better duelist than Yoda.
And I have seen nothing from Starkiller to suggest he is more powerful than Anakin. Starkiller knocked himself unconscious barely redirecting the fall of a Star Destroyer. Anakin moved droid landing platforms/war machines while a Padawan without having such strain.
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Anakin is more powerful and is indeed a better duelist. Nowhere was Obi-Wan shown having struggle emotionally. The fact that he managed to employ Electronic Manipulation against Anakin, which required an incredible amount of concentration and immersion in the Force, should very clearly nullify that. It was Anakin who was fighting poorly. As for Anakin being focused on a single purpose, wrong again:
--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth VaderSidious had had enough. "No, you weren't," he said. "So just imagine what Yoda might have done to you." He flung his words with brutal honesty. "Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader. If the Jedi Order had showed such resolute intention, if it had remained focused on what needed to be done rather than on fears of the dark side, it might have proved more difficult to topple and eradicate. You and I might have lost everything. Do you understand?"
Obi-Wan was the one with the singular intention that he meant to accomplish. Anakin was acting rashly, lacking control. This hindered his powers and his skill, which Obi-Wan, who also knew everything about Anakin's fighting style, exploited.
This discussion is silly. Anakin was the one who had difficulty focusing, not Obi-Wan.
Starkiller did not pull it down. As you said, it was already falling. All Starkiller did was put forth all of his power and concentration to alter its descent by a slight margin in order to prevent its crash from killing him. This achievement necessitated the entirety of his reserves and focus, as well as consuming a fair amount of time to accomplish, and rendered him unconscious. You are deliberately underselling Anakin's showing by articulating the instance as him "taking out a few droid ships." Those "droid ships" were Conqueror-class dreadnaughts which were large enough for Obi-Wan to not only land his starfighter on but to skid it across the upper surface platform. Its size, while never outright stated, is significant. Additionally, as sourcebooks have identified (quote below), a fleet of those dreadnaughts could raze the surface of a planet, an equivalent application to Star Destroyers. Let's also compare how this was done. Anakin, with some effort, moved the platform, turning it on its side, before a group of missiles could reach their intended target. In other words, this was done with both greater ease and more quick efficiency than Starkiller redirecting a falling Star Destroyer. It is also worth pointing out that the repulsorlifts which maintain the dreadnaughts in the atmosphere would doubtless be fighting against Anakin's shifting their positions. A disabled Star Destroyer falling to a planet invites no intrinsic resistance to Starkiller manipulating it through the Force. And, as I addressed, Anakin was a Padawan at the time. His skill and power grew immensely over the few years toward RotS.-Pulling down a star destroyer9 even if it's already crashing) is much more difficult than Anakin taking out a few droid ships
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars EncyclopediaDuring the Clone Wars, the Confederacy sent a fleet of these craft to raze the planet Terra Sool, but the invasion was thwarted by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker.
Anakin's other telekinetic feats, such as those listed below, are hardly below Starkiller's either.
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--Taken from Attack of the ClonesA third came at him, thrusting forth a spear, but Anakin lifted an empty hand and set up a wall of Force energy as solid as stone. Then he shoved out with that hand, and the Tusken spearman flew away, fully thirty meters, smashing through the wall of yet another hut.
Moving a boulder the size of a hut.
--Taken from Attack of the ClonesSoon none were standing against him, all trying to flee, but Anakin would have none of that. He saw one group rush into a hut and reached out across the way, to a large boulder in the distance. It flew to his call, soaring across the sand, smashing one fleeing Tusken down and flying on. Anakin dropped it on the hut full of Tuskens, crushing them all.
He has other showings as well, such as moving a massive stone wall and throwing trees.
Ignoring the second part of this remark because of how baseless and meaningless it is, the first part is not only subjective but altogether irrelevant. I already wrote an entire blog on this; so allow me to simply copy/paste what I has been said before:- And Mace Wind defeated Sidious, Yoda didn't. In fact to me Windu loked like he was using minimal force, although that's probably just because of how cool Sam Jackson is.
For the first point, let me show how this happened. Mace received a temporary, critical speed augmentation for this one duel. This happened because of the nature of Vaapad. Vaapad is an off-shoot of the Juyo form of lightsaber combat. Juyo is an aggressive and erratic fighting form, much more than even Ataru is, and it is this aggression that has made it a matter of discussion among Jedi whether Juyo is a safe style to learn. It relies on simply relentless strokes thrown continually until the user's opponent is defeated. The notable difference between Juyo and Vaapad is that Vaapad is a channel for darkness. It takes the user "through the penumbra of the dark side." Vaapad affords the practitioner the ability to harness their own inner darkness as a ferocity and drive in combat but does so without them falling victim to their darkness. Basically, Mace or Sora or Depa could draw on their darkness and still stay true to the light. Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider; if it did, Mace would not have lost his fight with Kar Vastor. The more darkness in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be. However, in Mace's duel with Palpatine, he achieved a fighting state he had never accomplished before, and this happened because, at that time, the darkness within him had been monumentally increased. It was increased because Mace had an attachment to the Republic that was shattered when Anakin told him that Palpatine, the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, was the Sith. The Republic he had been fighting for had already fallen under the Sith's influence, and this affected him at his core, heightening his darkness. On account of that, Mace managed to wield his own immensely accentuated darkness, Sidious' darkness, and Anakin's fear in order to enhance his speed so much that Anakin was unable to see the movements of Mace's blade and instead only saw the dozens of afterimages of it and the "nets" and "oblate sphere" he blurred from his lightsaber. Mace has never shown to be faster than Anakin or anyone of Anakin's speed class. Characters such as General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku, Saesee Tiin, Anakin, and others are all roughly even in speed (Anakin has demonstrated feats of speed that imply he could be faster when operating at his peak). Mace and Dooku dueled briefly on Boz Pity without Mace gaining any advantage. Ventress fought with Mace briefly before her being forced to flee, but he never outmatched her in speed. Grievous roughly stalemated Mace in a duel. Point is, Windu's consistent feats show that he is nowhere near the fighting speed depicted in his duel with Palpatine, and the book makes it very clear that he was amped in that fight.
Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own:an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
--Taken from Revenge of the SithMace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
As can be seen, Mace's own abilities were elevated for that one battle. To further solidify this point, Palpatine killed Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before either could react. Both of them have speed feats that place them on an even level with Mace. So how is it they died so quickly, yet Mace, who is not faster than they are, could last? Another source even states that Palpatine killed Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto before Mace realized it, showing the difference in speed between Palpatine and Mace and showing that had Mace not tapped into a greater speed level/fighting state, he would have similarly been unable to match Palpatine's speed.
--Taken from The Complete Visual DictionaryBefore Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.
So no matter how you look at this, if Mace never improved his fighting capabilities, he would have been cut down just as quickly as Saesee, Agen, and Kit were.
Next point: Mace only fought as a perfect equal with Palpatine. The novel is very clear that Mace, even when his speed and combat efficiency are so acutely aggrandized, is still only an equal with Palpatine in a duel.
--Taken from Revenge of the SithVaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
This proves that Mace is incontestably not a better duelist than Sidious regardless of what some may think.
Which leads us to the next point: If Mace isn't a more skilled duelist, how did he win? Setting aside the possibility that Palpatine allowed him to, the novel shows that Windu won by exploiting Palpatine's fear which caused him to become distracted and slow down. Mace felt fear emanating around the office, which he believed was Palpatine's, and abused it by breaking the window, resulting in Palpatine hesitating when he stood near it for fear of falling down. This allowed Mace to land a blow that disarmed him.
--Taken from Revenge of the SithMace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.
So Mace capitalized on the fear. However, the fear he felt was not Palpatine's; it was Anakin's. Sidious seemed to somehow project Anakin's fear out through himself (either that, or Mace's Force senses are incredibly inaccurate, but it makes no sense to me that Mace would simply "miss" in detecting whose fear it was; it makes more sense that Palpatine misdirected it).
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.
But if Mace won by manipulating Palpatine's fear, how did he win if he was never afraid in the first place? This to me seems like the greatest implication from the book that Palpatine had set it all up, but it can be interpreted different ways.
So, one way or another, whether Mace legitimately did defeat Palpatine or not, it is absolutely inconsequential because Mace received a massive augmentation of his speed and power for that one singular duel.
And setting that aside, Yoda is still a more skilled duelist than Mace. I posted the quotes to prove that, and you simply ignored it. So I will post those again below. Besides, Dooku has beaten Mace before, and Yoda has defeated Dooku repeatedly. Therefore, Yoda>Dooku>Mace.
Since we are using ABC logic and all...
Once again, Yoda is the best duelist in the Order:
--Taken from Insider #62To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.
http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html
"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."
--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow HunterThough it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.
--Taken from the Power of the Jedi SourcebookMaster Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
Maybe because Sidious was outright probing Vader's memories and thoughts at the time and because his whole victory over the Jedi and the Republic was a consequence of his foresight and clairvoyance (or because he allied himself with the Dark, depending on if you agree with Cronal).-Sidious' words here are pretty obsolete how does he know Obi Wan's intentions
--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth VaderSidious watched Vader, displeased. "Once more your thoughts betray you. I see that you are not yet fully convinced."
Or maybe (and by "maybe," I mean certainly) because Sidious was just reiterating a fact:
--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth VaderBut Vader remembered.Remembered being in thrall of what he had done in Palpatine's office. Watching the old man plead for his life; listening to the old man promising that only he had the power to save Padme; rushing to his defense. Sith lightning hurling an astonished Mace Windu through what had been a window...Anakin kneeling before Sidious and being dubbed Vader.Go to the Jedi Temple, Sidious had said. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme.And so he had gone to the Temple.Instrument of the same resolute intent that had carried Obi-Wan to Mustafar with one goal in mind: death to the enemy.
Obi-Wan did factually have a dead-set fortitude to defeat Vader on Mustafar. Saying that he was emotionally conflicted and out of control is not only unsubstantiated conjecture, it is flat out wrong.
Showing his remorse after the duel is concluded is the weakest way to refute this. Look at what Obi-Wan is actually experiencing during the duel.- Wasn't struggling emotionally ,He's like my brother I can't do this blah blah blah- You were my brother Anakin I loved you.
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.
--Taken from Revenge of the SithThis was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.Personally.Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all... Obi-Wan still loved him.Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...He let it go.
Did Obi-Wan want to fight Anakin? No. But he still did, and he was resolute in his commitment. More to the point, how does Obi-Wan's confrontation with Anakin prove him to be a more prodigious swordsman when Obi-Wan never even beat him through virtue of being more skilled? The reason Anakin lost is because he was arrogant and fought stupidly. Obi-Wan defended himself long enough to abuse this fact and turn it against Anakin.
--Taken from Revenge of the SithObi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back—Half a second too slow.Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee. And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.
So if your argument is that Obi-Wan is a more tactically competent and knowledgeable fighter who can retain control during a confrontation, I could grant you that. But more skilled? Not at all.
And to ultimately refute your speculation, the fact of the matter is that Anakin's vulnerability and emotional state/mindset did in fact hinder his combat performance:
--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth VaderBut even Sidious hadn't foreseen Anakin's defeat by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar.Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.
There is no G-Canon reference backing up your claim; you just made up information.Obi Wan was very conflicted we can't really argue because it's opinion based. Plus, Obiwan shows clear conflict in G canon. overrides.
If you want G-Canon though, here you are:
--Taken from The Revenge of the Sith commentary"There's a lot of discussion about arrogance both on the part of the Emperor and everybody else, and so the last real thing that, uh, Anakin says other than 'I hate you,' is 'You underestimate my power,' which is sort of a height of arrogance..."
Anakin lost because of his arrogance and mindset obstructing his effectiveness. Obi-Wan had no such problems.
@steelhound56 said:
No, Yoda straight out lost. Several sourcebooks have identified that he could never have beaten Palpatine.Yoda didnt really lose the fight, he retreated due to the fact that he couldn't possibly win, even if he defeated Sidious
--Taken from The New Essential ChronologyYoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
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