Obi Wan Kenobi Vs Sidious (Lightsabers only)

No force abilities, At all.... Just light sabers, punches & kicks

Both versions from ROTS.

Palpatine. Every single time, he's a master of all lightsaber forms.

Sidious stomps

Flagged for obvious mismatch

@jedixman: Please lock, he's at it again

Sidious.

what? how is this even a question?

Sidious killed Fisto with few strikes. Fisto is around the same level of dueling as Obi-Wan.

@penderor: Actually, IIRC, he was casually beating Obi-Wan in a spar

@jacthripper: Actually, IIRC, that was AotC Obi-Wan.

@penderor: Gotcha

Sidious easily. Mastered all the forms, could switch from form to form mid duel, was ambidextrous, and way faster.

Mismatch.

LOL Sidious crushes him.

If there's not even the passive Force augmentation at all like the Force connection is almost completely nullified, then Sidious takes 7/10 in prolonged, hard fights. Obi-Wan is just beneath Dooku in terms of skill, and the likes of Dooku or Windu level aren't much beneath Sidious when it comes to sheer lightsaber mastery and general combative capabilities themselves, setting Force aside.

If there is the Force involved in any way, Sidious stomps 10/10. Too strong, insanely too fast.

Sidious destroys Obi....without breaking a sweat.

@jkbart How would Obi-Wan take any rounds against someone who's several tiers above him in skill? Dooku and Windu are actually well below Sidious in skill, considering he's mastered every single lightsaber form and has proved to be Yoda's equal in lightsaber combat.

@juiceboks: Dooku and Windu aren't well below Yoda (some sources say they are perhaps equals in skill, although most point to them being second, which isn't a huge step down at all), ergo they aren't well below Sidious in raw skill, ergo Kenobi isn't ridiculously outclassed by Sidious. And being a master of every lightsaber form doesn't necessarily make you a skilled duelist. That's just academic knowledge. Being able to apply it is what makes you a good duelist.

If there's no passive Force Augmentation then it pretty much comes down to who is in better physical shape, which I'm guessing would be Kenobi, but then Sidious is still more skilled to some degree.. not really easy to call because of the speculation involved.

I didn't mean to say they were outclassed, but they are notably less skilled than he is. And Obi-Wan even moreso by association(and feats). Mastery of every lightsaber form shows martial knowledge Kenobi doesn't have for one, and I agree on it's own it's not worth that much but considering Sidious' dueling feats as well I believe it's more than enough reason to say he wins a comfortable 10/10.

I don't think Sidious would be able to move as well as he does in combat without the Force aiding him(which generally goes to any Force-sensitive but Sidious in particular due to his age) so that may impact his dueling performance. OP needs to be clearer I guess..

@juiceboks: Bare in mind a lot of Sidious' success against people like Maul and Savage comes from his passive Force Augmentation. He can hold back his speed on them, sure, but his reaction speed is still well beyond their combat speed, allowing him to basically parry any of their attacks and come off as complacent. In terms of raw skill, Sidious would only be about a tier and a half at most ahead of people like Maul and Kenobi.

OP made this thread with the intention of baiting people like his last two threads; little did he realize, we've found some discussion value in it anyway :3

@juiceboks: Because I disagree with the idea that Obi-Wan is several tiers beneath Sidious. Sidious and Yoda are generally considered equal. While some sources depicted Sidious as the more powerful in the Force as of RotS, they were regarded equals even within their Force power too in many other sources. Even when Sidious was considered better, it was regarding only their Force mastery, not lightsaber combat. They were simply deemed equal lightsaber duelists and it was never implied Sidious held any advantage within saber contest. That's something described quite often.

Simply put, Yoda is also considered superior to both Windu or Dooku, and it is also done in multiple sources, but they're also relatively often put in the same league as far as lightsaber mastery goes. Yes, both Dooku and Windu are inferior to Yoda and that's a stated fact, and it's of course pretty obvious from their displays, but the gap isn't too high. Obi-Wan, when it comes to saber mastery itself, is just beneath their league, with RotS Anakin somewhere between them. That's a difference no doubt, but I do not think it's huge. There is insane, laughable barrier between them in terms of Force power, and Obi-Wan would be slained as quickly as Fisto was, but this gap consisting of several tiers isn't nowhere visible when it comes to sheer saber mastery.

That's why I believe Obi-Wan would have those small chances, but only if the Force as a whole and its physical amplification was just "disabled", what would mean reliance solely on their base physical capabilities and body limitations, without no Force flow in any way. Yes, Obi-Wan is inferior, but not by such a large margin you implied. Obi-Wan's skillset also increases the chance of scoring a lucky shot, and that's also very important, as he relies on a relatively small chance.

If the Force still "exists" within that hypothetical combat, then it's a complete mismatch and Sidious slaughters.

@jkbart: Being concise ftw :D

@jkbart: Now I know we discussed a while ago about how Force Augmentation is hard to separate from lightsaber skill because of how closely they're tied in, but in terms of raw lightsaber skill, how far ahead of Mace/Dooku are Yoda/Sidious, would you say? Disregarding the speed disparity for a second.

@jkbart: @i_like_swords: Isn't it mere speculation, though, to gauge how well a Force user would do without the Force? I mean, some people choose not to use the Force in a fight, but it's still there, and they're still using it, even unconsciously. The only way to be "without the Force" is to be cut off from it, like the Exile was. But neither Sidious or Obi-Wan have been cut off from it, so how can we tell how they would perform without it? For all we know, they could be as clumsy as a random pirate with it without their Force abilities, conscious or unconscious. Whether they've been able to harness or feel it, both of them have had the Force since their birth, so I can't imagine how they would fight/react/cope without it.

In regards to what you guys are discussing, of course. Lol

@thevivas: Ulic Qel-Droma was alright when he was cut off from the Force, he managed to pick up his lightsaber again after years of being out-of-practice and even held his own in a duel against another Jedi.

Way I see it, the lack of clairvoyance and passive senses would leave them feeling lost and somewhat blind, like you just lost the ability to see or hear. But once they get used to just fully relying on their five senses, they'd be alright. As for physical abilities, they should be in pretty good shape for their age I would imagine. They would still be highly skilled swordsman with built-in muscle memory. I've always hated the notion people have that Force Users are blundering fools without the Force.

@i_like_swords: Ah, forgot about Ulic.

Fair enough. I just randomly started wondering how much the Force actually effects a Jedi's ability to wield it and his skill in its usage. Yeah, I don't like that either. They would still be skilled, just not as skilled I guess. Lol

@thevivas: They would look sort of like how movie Sidious/Mace looked while dueling, sans hilarious acrobatics :P

@i_like_swords: I always believed them to be in practically the same tier, with a disparity like... Sidious and Yoda in mid of highest tier (with Luke at the top), and Dooku+Windu at the top of the tier directly underneath. Windu is almost always presented as the one directly below Yoda - by materials surrounding the Prequels, by IC (in character) quotes of the characters themselves. The only quote implying huge disparity is actually... by Windu himself, when he stated he feels as a Padawan compared to Yoda, and we all know that Windu was always generous with multiple accolades.

Not only that, but amped Windu fought Sidious equally in a lightsaber contest, when their physical capabilities were "equalized", and it really has nothing to do with all the conceptions about Palpatine throwing the fight and his undoubtful capability to ragdoll Windu or kill him with Lightning. While they dueled, they were connected in an impasse, and the amp itself couldn't touch the skill and mastery themselves. Of course, the fight itself never ended in any clear way because of all the circumstances surrounding the event and Palpatine's actions, but it's simply supporting the idea that Windu and Dooku weren't far below as lightsaber duelists.

Also, there is that famed quote that states "only Dooku and Yoda have ever defeated Windu" (something along the lines), which is often used to imply Dooku's superiority. I actually read that differently. The quote is regarding three senior Jedi that have trained together for years, and one was at the very least an informal or partial apprentice to Dooku (it's really messed up with all the Thame stuff and Dooku referring to Yoda as his old master). It's pretty obvious that those three sparred hundreds of time after so many years, and it always sounds more like implying that only these two had any success against him ever, nothing to actually imply superiority of Dooku, and rather the fact that he was at least comparable enough to achieve something against Mace within all those years. Yoda's superiority is out of question of course, but how that notion is constructed can further imply that they were very close to each other in terms of sheer skill.

Dooku's extreme specialization in Makashi, and mastering its traits to such an extent that he can play around almost all the weaknesses of his style and only extreme physical strength has ever strained him is really something that sounds at least as well as technically mastering all the Forms. :P It speaks more about the mastery of specific traits, skillful ability to utilize his preferred methods and mastered skillset and tactics to a very versatile range.

It might be an unpopular opinion though, but really, the gap is relatively small for me.

@i_like_swords: LOL

@thevivas: It is a fair point to notice that it would be unnatural state for any Force user. The greater their power, the more adaptation time would be required. I believe the scale of difference is well described by Kreia in KotOR II when talking to Handmaiden, but I can't write the quote from my memory (I once could, lol). Technically, both sides would be equally hindranced I think. Those like Jaina Solo or Revan, the more unorthodox fighters, would be at an advantage though.

Other than that, I agree with @i_like_swords. They should be in a very good physical shape, and their sheer skill shouldn't be touched. They would be slower, they would fight like normal humans, although probably like the best of the best because of their training.

This bait tastes yummy.

@jkbart: Gotcha. Thanks man. Always a pleasure reading your very thorough responses. :P

I agree with everything here, pretty much. I don't think the gap is too large either.

I’m not sure whether no use of the force means no force augmentation? If it does, then Kenobi wins with high difficulty. If combatants are allowed to use force augmentation, it’s a toss up.

Most people in this thread are massively overrating Sidious as a duellist (at least in canon). Sidious, like Yoda, was A master of all the lightsaber forms, but he was not THE master of a form like Kenobi, Windu and Dooku were.

Sidious is an exceptional warrior, however he is overrated a a duellist. In the Clone Wars he struggles to overcome Maul, and falls back on his mastery of the force to defeat his former apprentice. In RotS Sidious is defeated by Windu (who, in canon, has struggled with Maul). Sidious battled Yoda but all evidence indicates that he lost his lightsaber and presumably was therefore disarmed in this battle. I’m not saying Sidious is by any means anything less than exceptional in lightsaber combat, however he is not significantly above over high-tier characters as some would suggest. Most of Palpatine’s battle prowess comes from his forcee augmented speed and his unmatched power. Yes he dominated 3 Jedi masters, but quite frankly, the Jedi were naive and unprepared. I don’t think Sidious would have pulled that off if the Jedi truly knew what they were up against.

Kenobi is THE master of Soresu and arguably the greatest technical duellist in the Jedi Order. He has defeated Maul and Savage in pure lightsabers (which Sidious struggled to do), he defeated RotS Anakin (who is confirmed to be on Yoda’s level and who has defeated Dooku, the greatest technical duellist in the Star Wars universe), he out-duelled the Jedi-Hunter, General Grievous. The only opponent who was defeated Kenobi consistently is Dooku and thay is because Dooku is the most technically-refined and experienced duellist alive, whose style is a perfect match for Kenobi’s.

Obviously Sidious is far more powerful than Kenobi, nobody is denying that. But in terms of pure saber skills, they’re pretty even. Both Sidious and Kenobi are top tier duellists, and the only edge Sidious has is his forge augmented speed. If no forge augmentation is allowed, my money’s on Kenobi. (In a pure sabers battle in canon).

Do you research before you hate on me.

Sids after a marathon.

He isn't stomping in this scenario.

Palpatine wins with medium-high difficulty.

@hellothere5432:

I wouldn't say Sheev's augmentation is leagues above Obi-Wans, especially if it's EoROTS Obi-Wan who is more than capable of keeping up with fighters that are much more powerful than him.

Yoda was sure enough of Obi not being powerful enough to take on Palpatine. So Obi's ability to fight those more powerful than him wouldn't be enough to encompass a win against Palpatine.

Kenobi literally has a feat of keeping up with someone on the same augmentation tier as Palps and holding out. Yodas statement is based on the assumption that Palps killed the entirety of B-Team legitimately all at once. In fact Yoda asserts that he and Kenobi combined would lose. Despite Kenobi being able to match a peer of Sids in a raw power contest and Yoda matching Palps on his own thus proving this assertion false.

Likewise Kenobi despite being "at his physical and mental limits" explicitly moves faster than any force user had before in history hours after the Mustafar duel. This would include Yoda, who for a time doubled his pace and disarmed Sidious outright.

Kenobi does lose here as he doesn't have a viable option to win. Just live. But the idea Sids can sweep him aside is unfounded.

@frozen:

Greysentinel covers most of my points.

Obi-Wan already matched someone on Palpatine's level in Anakin and Yoda's IUO shouldn't be taken strictly as fact. Palpatine couldn't cream Mace, he isn't taking prime Obi-Wan without exerting himself to a certain degree.

Obi-Wan benefited from having knowlede of Anakin's fighting style - something which is referenced many times in the EU. BoD covered the Mace points. We have statements from Lucas asserting that only Mace and Yoda can take on the emperor. Obi is never included in these statements.

As for Yoda's statement, while you're right in the sense that it isn't strictly infalliable, I think hand waving it is essentially ignoring the intent of the film. We have many OOU statements placing Palpatine on a level above Obi Wan - Yoda's statement is the IU way of conveying this intent. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been any suggestion in universe that Yoda was mistaken in his assesmnet.

@frozen:

Obi-Wan benefited from having knowlede of Anakin's fighting style

Irrelevant as their are independent sources stating their skill and power alone was comparable. Likewise knowing Anakin style would be pointless if he could not move at the same pace to keep up, if he did not have the strength to match his blows. Otherwise he would just be outpaced, outmuscled and killed in short order. Even Gillard speaks to this

"They're almost equal, they can't get through and they're reading each others moves"

Likewise the form knowledge flows both ways. Which people conveniently omit. There literally can't be large discrepancy in power or the person with equal skill and knowledge + that power would win quickly. Which doesn't happen. Therefore were left with that they have to be close.

@frozen:

Obi-Wan benefited from having knowlede of Anakin's fighting style - something which is referenced many times in the EU.

This knowledge went both ways and it could have only gotten Obi-Wan so far, he still needed to have force augmentation that was close to Anakins.

BoD covered the Mace points.

BoD just explained to me how Mace used Vaapad against Palpatine, I don't think he disagreed with the notion of Obi-Wan giving Mace a hard fight IIRC.

As for Yoda's statement, while you're right in the sense that it isn't strictly infalliable, I think hand waving it is essentially ignoring the intent of the film.

I'm not completely disregarding the statement but it should be noted that Yoda was working from the POV that Palpatine single-handily took Mace and the entire B-Team by himself. Grey also brought up the point that Yoda believed that if he and Obi-Wan took Palpatine together they'd still lose.

As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been any suggestion in universe that Yoda was mistaken in his assessment.

I'm not disagreeing with Yoda here, I'm just arguing against the idea that Palpatine is capable of no-diffing Obi-Wan when an arguably stronger Sith Lord in Anakin couldn't.