Obi-Wan Kenobi VS Mace Windu (sabers only)

ROTS versions of both characters, Using the force only to augment martial skill.

Windu or stalemate.

Kenobi.

Soresu is a very calm and 'peaceful' Form. Vaapd is a Form meant to harness Negative emotions, anger, and the Dark Side from the enemy to fuel the Form user. Soresu will not entertain such from Vaapd and is perfect for waiting out all of the fury of it till a mistake is made.

Both are considered the best at their respective Forms, so the skill will balance out, and Soresu's innate advantage over Vaapd will gain Kenobi the victory.

KENOBI.

no.

Windu by far

Mace Windu, by a good margin.

Mace solidly. He is one level ahead of Kenobi, only second to Yoda.

This has had to of been done already?

@sebast_allen: This. Soresu counters Vappd if the two fought. I'd imagine it'd be a training bout though, can't see them fighting for any other reason.

Windu.

Same as the Dooku vs Kenobi sabers only thread.

Kenobi holds his own, but Mace wins.

@mije_101: Mace would beat Dooku as well though. Mace has better accolades and feats, such as this ;

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says.

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Or Kenobi was comparing Mace with Yoda etc.

Dooku and RotS / TCW Kenobi are comparable duelists in overall IMHO, just that Dooku's elegant makashi has advantage against Kenobi's ataru / soresu.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/erkan12/blog/obi-wan-or-dooku-who-is-the-greater-swordsman/101089/

@erkan12: I personally have Dooku not vastly outstripping Kenobi in terms of sabers, but he is solidly above him. I then have Mace slightly edging out Dooku, as without his vaapad amp, they should basically be equals.

This is just my opinion.

@mije_101: Fair enough, I respect your opinion.

Mace Windu.

Does Vaapad draw off of the opponents energy? I thought it was strictly the user?

Windu 7-8/10.

And it has nothing to do with Vaapad siphoning dark energy or anything of the sort, because Mace Windu has literally never done this under normal circumstances, and Kenobi has none to siphon. He also wouldn't need to, because he's more skilled than Kenobi.

@darthmanhunter: I just meant in terms of his amp he received during ROTS and him being able to stalemate Sidious until Anakin's arrival, which was a one-time thing. His "inner darkness" was at an all time high and he was facing the strongest sith lord ever, but Mace on any given day is Dooku level in terms of skill. ( Again, in my opinion )

@i_like_swords: That was my interpretation as well thanks for the info.

@mije_101: Yea no problem here man, I didnt in all honesty know if it did or not, I couldn't recall any specific examples. So that's why I asked.

Mace

Mace in a decent fight.

Windu.

I'd give Windu the edge, he's in the same class as Dooku and just below Yoda. I, personally, wouldn't put Kenobi at the same level of either Dooku or Windu purely on saber skill - both are masters at forms that can eventually overwhelm Soresu, Makashi moreso than Vaapad.

Windu in a good fight

Windu. He's explicitly stated to be the superior swordsmen, and Vaapad is better suited to use in a death match. He'd stalemate Dooku, who was more than a match for Kenobi.

according to the movies it's mace. he was supposed to be the second best duelist behind yoda.

It's my belief that the defense of a master of soresu can be penetrated by a master of vapaad. Although Windu has nothing to draw on in terms of dark power, he isn't just a master of vapaad, he is THE master.

Vaapad channels the practioner's darkness, not the opponent's. It accepts their opponent's fury, which someone like Kenobi wouldn't have.

Even so, Vaapad is still a variation of Juyo, which is perfectly suited for fierce lightsaber duels.

@mrunsmiley: You are right, however according to the wiki, it also says vapaad users accept the opponents fury, which Kenobi would have none of.

Mace stomps

Mace is not stomping at all. He might be a tier 9 duelist and Kenobi a tier 8 swordsman by Nick Gillard's standards, but that is close enough. Physically, they are equal, and Obi-Wan's defensive stance and fighting techniques would serve to either prolong the fight or possibly even counter Mace's Vaapad. I doubt Obi-Wan would win a majority, but he would at least win 2 or 3 rounds.

Mace is a noticeably better duelist so he should win at least 8/10, but I see personally see him winning 10/10

Mace in a very very slight majority.

I've never really been that impressed by Mace considering he's often said to be equal to Dooku - he probably is but he never really impressed that upon me.

Windu for a small majority.

Mace in a very very large majority.

Mace

Here are my thoughts.

(1) Do we believe Mace can penetrate Kenobi's defenses through his use of Form VII, keeping in mind that Mace will not be able to generate no additional amp (but will still be using the technical skill he needed to achieve to master the form to begin with).

(2) If one believes Kenobi can effectively defend against Windu ... can Obi-Wan subvert Mace's defenses?

They are basically two sides of the same coin. Windu with an offensive focus and Kenobi with a defensive focus.

@SilentBat:

Just my $0.02

1) I think Mace will find himself extremely hard pressed to break through Kenobi's defenses, but having said that, I think it's worthy to note that form 7 is the only form noted at being able to reliably break through a Soresu master's defense, though admittedly, I think the passage in question referred to Juyo specifically iirc and Vaapad's less kinetic, but more reserved nature might not benefit Mace as much. But still noteworthy.

Given that very few combatants have truly tried ROTS Kenobi's defenses with the saber without resorting to the force including Dooku, widely considered to be Windu's equal, who had to resort to the force to keep Kenobi at bay and later remove him from the fight and Grievous, who despite his blinding speed, unpredictable and unorthadox nature and incredible adaptability, was unable to overcome Kenobi in a saber duel, with the latter slipping through and cutting apart Grievous' offense, I can't see Mace breaking through Kenobi's defenses with anything close to ease, especially when forced to confront him with a saber.

Although I would like to note that Grievous was approaching Kenobi in a disadvantageous manner.

Dooku critisized him for his lack of subtelty and finesse. Grievous would charge ahead blindly attempting to cut through his opponents defenses with blinding speed, rather than work around their defenses as Dooku would. Against opponents with a stellar defense, such as Obi-Wan, this would prove a disadvantageous choice, though it should be noted, that Grievous still managed to overload Obi-Wan's defenses using pure speed, with 20 strikes a second proving too much for even the master of Soresu, the defensive form, to take head on.

Still, despite of this, his aggressive and unorthadox style would prove too much for many of his other opponents, able to close the gap with relative ease and rely on both his incredible speed and amazing adaptability to overwhelm his opponents, cut through their defenses outright and strike them down in a blinding flurry of lighsaber swings and jabs.

The fact Kenobi's stone wall was such a perfect defense where all others would have been overwhelmed is testament and Grievous himself gave Mace pause, with his adaptability and comfort in mimicking Vapaad being something the Korun Jedi Master simply wasn't willing to stick around to see and fell back on the force to simply rid himself of the confrontation.

Given time and assuming Kenobi was merely defending, I think Mace could succeed at breaking through, but in that time Kenobi will be attacking back and it would have to be considered how well Mace reacts and defends.

2) Sometimes I see a lot of people put down Kenobi's offensive capabilities. Yes, Kenobi is primarily passive and reactive in the way he fights, walling off his opponents offense, wearing them down and slipping through lapses in their defenses when he finds them, it s not as if that is all he can do. He is also a master of Ataru and iirc has proficiency in Shii-Cho.

However, against someone as untiring and proactive as Mace, I see Kenobi falling onto his backfoot, much like he did against Grievous and walling off Mace's attacks.

I feel that Kenobi would wait for an opportunity, a lapse in Mace's defense, an effort to hold him off and wear him down and pick at him as he begins to make mistakes.

But I do not believe he will find a lapse and Mace will not tire or become sloppy.

Unlike Grievous, who simply crashed into Kenobi's steel wall at high speed, focusing all on offense and leaving no room for defense, relying of simply overwhelming his opponent to prevent a counter attack (Grievous' best defense is an overwhelming offense) which inevitably failed against Kenobi's advantageous form and masterful skill, I don't see Mace making the same mistake.

Indeed, with form 7, Mace will be proactive, setting up a kinetic and speedy assault from the get go, but unlike Grievous' sporratic lunges and strikes, Mace will fight with more skill, and despite his seeming unpredictability and wild strikes, there will be method to the madness, his aggressive assault tempered by measured tact.

And considering the form advantage as well as the unlikeliness that Kenobi will find an obvious lapse in Mace's defense as he did against Grievous, whose 'overwhelming' onslaught simply failed to prevent a counteratack due to Kenobi's sheer mastery over Soresu, I feel that it will live up to it's reputation.

He will hold Mace off for a time, but Soresu will only delay the inevitable.

Stalemate

@SilentBat:

(1) Do we believe Mace can penetrate Kenobi's defenses through his use of Form VII, keeping in mind that Mace will not be able to generate no additional amp (but will still be using the technical skill he needed to achieve to master the form to begin with).

Honestly no.

2) If one believes Kenobi can effectively defend against Windu ... can Obi-Wan subvert Mace's defenses?

Arguably yes. Vaapad relies on liquid precision transitions between strikes and Kenobi has shown the ability to interfere with those types of patterns before. But that would likely only allow Kenobi to land a kick or a superficial burn

Likewise, despite Kenobi consistently outmatching Ventress offensively, Mace has been shown to be able to comfortably stonewall Sora Bulq (though there was a familiarity to each others styles in play there) which lends credence he could hold off Kenobi. However Kenobi in AotC was able to put Dooku on his back foot for a time with a randomized application of Ataru, his much faster and more skilled prime self could see some success with that tactic, but it's questionable.

So yeah, stalemate

Windu for a good majority.

@greysentinel365:

But that would likely only allow Kenobi to land a kick or a superficial burn

This is kind of why I see Mace eventually breaking through.

It's pretty much well known that Soresu will only delay the inevitable and Kenobi is the best at doing so.

So the only way for Kenobi to succeed is to either delay the fight long enough for Mace to tire himself out and begin slowing down or making mistakes or to find a lapse in Mace's defense and slip through with anything more than superficial damage.

However, I honestly don't see Kenobi managing to damage Mace and I don't see Mace tiring either, so indeed it would end up being at a stalemate for a good time.

However, considering Vaapad's form advantage (in that form 7 is noted as the only form to reliably break through a soresu master's defenses) and the fact that Soresu will only delay the inevitable and no matter how good the master, can only hold out for so long, I see Mace breaking through 'eventually'.

Unless of course Kenobi finds a gap in Mace's defense before then, which I find doubtful. If Kenobi were to rely more heavily on Ataru, on trying to force an offense rather than wait for one to present itself, Kenobi might have a chance, but seeing how aggressive, proactive and unpredictable Mace's approach to combat is, I more likely see Kenobi falling on his own back foot and it playing out much as I stated eariler.

@emperor339:

The flip side is Kenobi on his back foot is freaking terrifying, because he has a habit of pulling ridiculous things out of his hat.

Also if we are being perfectly honest, Kenobi's EM enhanced senses have a better track record than Mace's shatterpoint.

Also I don't really consider Form 7's advantage over Soresu an insta win, or a factor in general. Because it's never actually displayed it. Maul never breached Kenobi, Bulq did not breach Windu, Kota did not breach Marek and neither did Vader. It's never been displayed between users around the same level

Then consider that (near as we can tell) Vaapad ditches the power attacks for more speed and smoother transitions and I don't see it being a factor.

The idea of Kenobi putting in cumulative damage on Windu through minor burns and blows is actually a tactic we've seen him employ twice (against Ventress and Savage), it's absolutely a valid tactic he could employ. But then Windu has shown he can tank ridiculous injuries on Harrun Kal (though it still affected him, he just kept fighting)

Yeah I'm just splitting hairs here. I can honestly only say stalemate.

@greysentinel365:

That's fair.

I still think that Mace could break through 'eventually', but it really depends on whether Kenobi can wear him down through attrition and wit first.

---

And I didn't mean to make form 7's usefulness sound inflated.

As I stated, it is only 'noteworthy' that it's mentioned and further more I, like you, mentioned how Vapaad would likely be of even less note in this regard than Juyo, depending on how one was to interpret the passage from the Jedi path on form 7.

Windu, probably every time.

@greysentinel365

What is your opinion on the difference between a normal/level Obi Wan and an EM Obi Wan( though that too is quite normal for him as it is his own ability and he can get into it anytime he wants especially if he is being strained heavily, I just want to know how much of a difference it makes), power wise? And how do they stack up to other force users of their timeline?

Windu 7/10