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#1 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio

on a construction site, really really tall building and it's all steel girders and everything else you'd typically find at a CS
both maxed out on standard equipment
i dont know too much about bucky  but probably has the edge on weapons and power
but i'll lean over to nightwing just cuz i like him more :]
whatcha guys think?

#2 Posted by spawnfanboy (893 posts) - - Show Bio

nightwing in a badass battle

#3 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio
spawnfanboy said:
"nightwing in a badass battle"

yus!
#4 Posted by Emerald_General_Jai (2306 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick, though wasn't this done?

#5 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Bucky can win because he has more at his disposal.He's more heavily armed with deadly weapons,he has a great combat track record,and he's more experienced than Grayson.

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#6 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio

he might be more experienced, but grayson is a cunning sun uf a gun
we could break this down... in combat areas?
they'd probably do a bit of talking and fist throwing for a good amount of time, which one of the two would peak out in melee combat?
i'd like to think nightwingz got the upperhand in acrobatics... i'm pretty sure grayson knows more styles, but bucky puts whatever he knows to good use...
and he's got that cybernetic arm of his..

#7 Edited by Emerald_General_Jai (2306 posts) - - Show Bio

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

#8 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio
Emerald_General_Jai said:
"Dick, though wasn't this done?"

i dont know, i've been looking around but i only found a couple bucky vs robin threads
i was going to do nightwing vs winter soldier too.... but i thought it should be a battle in there latest incarnations
plus i really dont like winter soldier for some reason =P
#9 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio
Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"

you mean this is dicks fight to win?
#10 Posted by Emerald_General_Jai (2306 posts) - - Show Bio

karasu_ said:

"Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"
you mean this is dicks fight to win?"

No, the expression basically means you see ur pick loosing most often if they do something to cause their own down fall. Now Bucky is good, and the battle between him and Dick would much mirror that of their mentors. Yet while I never really could choose between Bruce and Steve (though i normally gave it to Steve b/c of  the syrum.) as far as their protege's go, I think Dick is the better trained and better fighter. So for me, it could go either way b/c any fight can, but Dick should win.

#11 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"
Captain America has a wider variety of training as well.He's a master of virtually all forms of combat and Bucky stalemated him.Not to mention Cap has shown on many occasions to physically trump Nightwing.Every street leveler can dodge gunshots but Bucky is most likely not going to try and shoot Bucky.He has a vibranium arm he could use in close combat to block or to increase the strength of his punches.He dropped a Spider- Slayer in one hit and punched a whole in a version of Ultimo.He also has his shield which unlike Dick's Escrima Stick is unbreakable and is open to more options as far as how he can bounce it off things.Bucky was trained with weapons years before Dick was even born..he's technically in his 70's.He fought in a World War most of the time unarmed with firearms..just running up on people and slitting their throats.Bucky hasn't shown any signs that he's below Cap's level of shield wielding.He owned people with super speed with the Shield.
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#12 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"
Captain America has a wider variety of training as well.He's a master of virtually all forms of combat and Bucky stalemated him.Not to mention Cap has shown on many occasions to physically trump Nightwing.Every street leveler can dodge gunshots but Bucky is most likely not going to try and shoot Bucky.He has a vibranium arm he could use in close combat to block or to increase the strength of his punches.He dropped a Spider- Slayer in one hit and punched a whole in a version of Ultimo.He also has his shield which unlike Dick's Escrima Stick is unbreakable and is open to more options as far as how he can bounce it off things.Bucky was trained with weapons years before Dick was even born..he's technically in his 70's.He fought in a World War most of the time unarmed with firearms..just running up on people and slitting their throats.Bucky hasn't shown any signs that he's below Cap's level of shield wielding.He owned people with super speed with the Shield.
"
you mean *Bucky is most likely not going to try to shoot nightwing* o_o
#13 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
karasu_ said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"
Captain America has a wider variety of training as well.He's a master of virtually all forms of combat and Bucky stalemated him.Not to mention Cap has shown on many occasions to physically trump Nightwing.Every street leveler can dodge gunshots but Bucky is most likely not going to try and shoot Bucky.He has a vibranium arm he could use in close combat to block or to increase the strength of his punches.He dropped a Spider- Slayer in one hit and punched a whole in a version of Ultimo.He also has his shield which unlike Dick's Escrima Stick is unbreakable and is open to more options as far as how he can bounce it off things.Bucky was trained with weapons years before Dick was even born..he's technically in his 70's.He fought in a World War most of the time unarmed with firearms..just running up on people and slitting their throats.Bucky hasn't shown any signs that he's below Cap's level of shield wielding.He owned people with super speed with the Shield.
"
you mean *Bucky is most likely not going to try to shoot nightwing* o_o"
Yes...
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#14 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

karasu_ said:

"Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"
you mean this is dicks fight to win?"

No, the expression basically means you see ur pick loosing most often if they do something to cause their own down fall. Now Bucky is good, and the battle between him and Dick would much mirror that of their mentors. Yet while I never really could choose between Bruce and Steve (though i normally gave it to Steve b/c of  the syrum.) as far as their protege's go, I think Dick is the better trained and better fighter. So for me, it could go either way b/c any fight can, but Dick should win.

"
That's the thing though..Nightwing and Bucky don't fight like Cap and Bats.Nightwing uses more agility and weapons than Batman.Batman makes more use of his speed and physical ability.Same with Bucky and Cap..Bucky uses more weapons and cheap tactics,Cap is a more honorable fighter but he uses the shield more power and speed kind of like Batman.I think Dick is more skilled h2h but with Bucky having his regular equipment and his arm I think he has the upper hand.
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#15 Posted by Emerald_General_Jai (2306 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

karasu_ said:

"Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"
you mean this is dicks fight to win?"

No, the expression basically means you see ur pick loosing most often if they do something to cause their own down fall. Now Bucky is good, and the battle between him and Dick would much mirror that of their mentors. Yet while I never really could choose between Bruce and Steve (though i normally gave it to Steve b/c of  the syrum.) as far as their protege's go, I think Dick is the better trained and better fighter. So for me, it could go either way b/c any fight can, but Dick should win.

"
That's the thing though..Nightwing and Bucky don't fight like Cap and Bats.Nightwing uses more agility and weapons than Batman.Batman makes more use of his speed and physical ability.Same with Bucky and Cap..Bucky uses more weapons and cheap tactics,Cap is a more honorable fighter but he uses the shield more power and speed kind of like Batman.I think Dick is more skilled h2h but with Bucky having his regular equipment and his arm I think he has the upper hand.
"

An that's the difference in our thinking ,methinks. His normal  equipment include the gun, which at this point strikes me useless, a knife, and the shield. Dick has his Escrima, his batarang varients, not to mention gas pellets, ect ect. I just don't see it making much of a difference. He's got that arm, which helps, but Dick is good enough to stay out of his reach.
#16 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Emerald_General_Jai said:
An that's the difference in our thinking ,methinks. His normal  equipment include the gun, which at this point strikes me useless, a knife, and the shield. Dick has his Escrima, his batarang varients, not to mention gas pellets, ect ect. I just don't see it making much of a difference. He's got that arm, which helps, but Dick is good enough to stay out of his reach. "
Yea we do think different because you are focussing on the gun when he's an expert with the knife is holding a shield and has an indestructable arm.Let's not forget he rarely even draws his gun.Nightwing isn't invincible and his speed isn't superhuman.It's easy to dodge the shots on unskilled marksman but not of someone who was thoroughly trained as a marksman.Spider-Man is a better acrobat than Dick and his agility is superhuman yet the Punisher has shot him and almost all of their fights.Also there is a huge difference in weaponry.You have Bucky swinging and indestructable shield with superhuman strength and Dick throwing or swinging Escrima sticks on peak human levels...who do you think has the advantage? I don't see how you think it's Dick.Lastly..Dick isn't really good enough to stay out of Bucky's reach..your almost pretending Dick won't get hit.
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#17 Edited by The Man of Yesteryear (5502 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
Also there is a huge difference in weaponry.You have Bucky swinging and indestructable shield with superhuman strength and Dick throwing or swinging Escrima sticks on peak human levels...who do you think has the advantage?
Well, Nightwing's suit is made of a nomex kevlar weave and contains a taser charge, he also carries several dozen modified batarangs along with de-cel jumplines and gas capsules.

But I think Bucky would take the majority as well.
#18 Posted by Push (1552 posts) - - Show Bio
Emerald_General_Jai said:
"

I've heard that arguement before an it just doesn't really vibe me. Dick has a wider variety of combat training, and in H2H should be Bucky's superior. I will give you the weapons, but Dick has been avoiding gunshots since he was 8. He's the most acomplished acrobat in the world and has had time to tailor his fighting style to that. Unlike Bruce vs Steve, he has greater weapons training in his Escrima sticks, and Bucky isn't as good with the shield as Cap was. This is Dick's fight to loose.

"

Yeah, but Bucky has been avoiding gunshots since WWII lol If this was Bucky in Winter Soldier mode, i'd kiss Dick's behind goodbye!
#19 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
The Man of Yesteryear said:
"Vance Astro said:
Also there is a huge difference in weaponry.You have Bucky swinging and indestructable shield with superhuman strength and Dick throwing or swinging Escrima sticks on peak human levels...who do you think has the advantage?
Well, Nightwing's suit is made of a nomex kevlar weave and contains a taser charge, he also carries several dozen modified batarangs along with de-cel jumplines and gas capsules.But I think Bucky would take the majority as well."
Nightwing doesn't have Kevlar on his face.
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#20 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
The Man of Yesteryear said:
"Vance Astro said:
Bucky doesn't have Kevlar on his face."
What?"
Read it again.
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#21 Posted by Push (1552 posts) - - Show Bio
The Man of Yesteryear said:
"Vance Astro said:
Bucky doesn't have Kevlar on his face."
What?"

True! Bit hard to get it on with the ladies if you've get kevlar all over your face lol
#22 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
Nightwing doesn't have Kevlar on his face."

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#23 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Vance Astro said:
Nightwing doesn't have Kevlar on his face."

Nightwing's body is protected (not well) but his face and head are not.
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#24 Posted by Push (1552 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Vance Astro said:
Nightwing doesn't have Kevlar on his face."

Nightwing's body is protected (not well) but his face and head are not.
"

Vance Astro said:
"Vance Astro said:
Nightwing doesn't have Kevlar on his face."

"

You know, i've noticed you tend to quote your own posts more than once, stating the same thing?
#25 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Push said:
Vance Astro said:
"Vance Astro said:
Nightwing doesn't have Kevlar on his face."

"
You know, i've noticed you tend to quote your own posts more than once, stating the same thing?"
You know I've noticed people tend to blow my posts our of proportion act as if I "tend to" do certain things that I rarely do.I just wanted you to be clear on what I meant because I said the wrong thing and had to edit it.
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#26 Posted by Erik (32430 posts) - - Show Bio

I am going to go with Bucky.

#27 Posted by Crimson Dominion (450 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky should win here.

#28 Posted by Push (1552 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Push said:
Vance Astro said:
"Vance Astro said:
Nightwing doesn't have Kevlar on his face."

"
You know, i've noticed you tend to quote your own posts more than once, stating the same thing?"
You know I've noticed people tend to blow my posts our of proportion act as if I "tend to" do certain things that I rarely do.I just wanted you to be clear on what I meant because I said the wrong thing and had to edit it.
"

o.k. no worries, kinda went over my head, with what you said, but all is good :-)
#29 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Nightwing but I think Bucky just has too much experience over him. It'd be an epic fight though.

#30 Posted by Psi-Fire (982 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Bucky takes him in a good fight.

#31 Posted by inferiorego (23212 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky still has that Winter Soldier assassin training on him, plus he'll use weapons. The cybernetic arm, as a blocking device and super-strength, would play a huge factor. I love Richard (Dick would sound different if used there) and all, but Bucky would take it in the end. Awesome fight though.

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#32 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?
#33 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?"
Yes.
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#34 Posted by inferiorego (23212 posts) - - Show Bio
Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?"
Winter Soldier training. He's technically been an assassin for the Ruskies since 1946
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#35 Posted by Erik (32430 posts) - - Show Bio
inferiorego said:
"Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?"
Winter Soldier training. He's technically been an assassin for the Ruskies since 1946"
This is true. As the Winter Soldier, they only took him out of the freezer to kill someone. He has decades of nonstop killing. 
#36 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio

im sure nightwing has had plenty of battles with super assasins and has won... or is bucky just out of that league?

#37 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
karasu_ said:
im sure nightwing has had plenty of battles with super assasins and has won... or is bucky just out of that league?
Bucky isn't a super assassin..he's THE super assassin.
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#38 Posted by karasu_ (272 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"karasu_ said:
im sure nightwing has had plenty of battles with super assasins and has won... or is bucky just out of that league?
Bucky isn't a super assassin..he's THE super assassin.
"
hmm i see i see thats a good way of putting it hahah, so i guess this match goes to bucky..... in combat, but who's more of a ladies man ehh? ;D
#39 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio
erik said:
"inferiorego said:
"Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?"
Winter Soldier training. He's technically been an assassin for the Ruskies since 1946"
This is true. As the Winter Soldier, they only took him out of the freezer to kill someone. He has decades of nonstop killing. 
"
no, he was frozen over and then reanimated to do a mission and then back to the ice block because it was messing too much with his mind, and those were military targets that don't compare with fighting metahumans or skilled street level heroes.

It was until Lukin found him that he became fully operational.

On the other hand Dick has been fighting since he was 8 (or 12, not sure which one of those is at the current continuity) By the time he put the Robin costume for the first time (before he was trained) he was already able to own most of Batman's rogue gallery (Dark Victory).

Being the sidekick of Batman and leader of the Teen Titans, Outsiders and Justice League means he has gone against beings from the Fearsome Five, to Deathstroke to even guys like Trigon, I don't see how Bucky is more experienced
#40 Posted by Push (1552 posts) - - Show Bio
Nighthunter said:
"erik said:
"inferiorego said:
"Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?"
Winter Soldier training. He's technically been an assassin for the Ruskies since 1946"
This is true. As the Winter Soldier, they only took him out of the freezer to kill someone. He has decades of nonstop killing. 
"
no, he was frozen over and then reanimated to do a mission and then back to the ice block because it was messing too much with his mind, and those were military targets that don't compare with fighting metahumans or skilled street level heroes.It was until Lukin found him that he became fully operational.On the other hand Dick has been fighting since he was 8 (or 12, not sure which one of those is at the current continuity) By the time he put the Robin costume for the first time (before he was trained) he was already able to own most of Batman's rogue gallery (Dark Victory).Being the sidekick of Batman and leader of the Teen Titans, Outsiders and Justice League means he has gone against beings from the Fearsome Five, to Deathstroke to even guys like Trigon, I don't see how Bucky is more experienced"

Grayson maybe more experienced with people and leadership, but as stated again, Bucky's been around off and on since the late forties, he still tops Dick in experience, i'd say!
#41 Posted by Erik (32430 posts) - - Show Bio
Nighthunter said:
"erik said:
"inferiorego said:
"Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?"
Winter Soldier training. He's technically been an assassin for the Ruskies since 1946"
This is true. As the Winter Soldier, they only took him out of the freezer to kill someone. He has decades of nonstop killing. 
"
no, he was frozen over and then reanimated to do a mission and then back to the ice block because it was messing too much with his mind, and those were military targets that don't compare with fighting metahumans or skilled street level heroes.It was until Lukin found him that he became fully operational.On the other hand Dick has been fighting since he was 8 (or 12, not sure which one of those is at the current continuity) By the time he put the Robin costume for the first time (before he was trained) he was already able to own most of Batman's rogue gallery (Dark Victory).Being the sidekick of Batman and leader of the Teen Titans, Outsiders and Justice League means he has gone against beings from the Fearsome Five, to Deathstroke to even guys like Trigon, I don't see how Bucky is more experienced"
How did any of that prove my post wrong?
#42 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio

but like I said he wasn't active all those years training and on missions. Until Lukin found him the progress for him was:

  1. Be in suspended animation
  2. Be freed from a short period of time
  3. Go into a mission and complete it
  4. Go back to the suspended animation
Besides, according to the files of the scientist that worked on him, he only had in all those years 7 missions all of them consisted of killing politicians, no real challenge and worth of real experience
#43 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio
erik said:
"Nighthunter said:
"erik said:
"inferiorego said:
"Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
 he's more experienced than Grayson."
he is?"
Winter Soldier training. He's technically been an assassin for the Ruskies since 1946"
This is true. As the Winter Soldier, they only took him out of the freezer to kill someone. He has decades of nonstop killing. 
"
no, he was frozen over and then reanimated to do a mission and then back to the ice block because it was messing too much with his mind, and those were military targets that don't compare with fighting metahumans or skilled street level heroes.It was until Lukin found him that he became fully operational.On the other hand Dick has been fighting since he was 8 (or 12, not sure which one of those is at the current continuity) By the time he put the Robin costume for the first time (before he was trained) he was already able to own most of Batman's rogue gallery (Dark Victory).Being the sidekick of Batman and leader of the Teen Titans, Outsiders and Justice League means he has gone against beings from the Fearsome Five, to Deathstroke to even guys like Trigon, I don't see how Bucky is more experienced"
How did any of that prove my post wrong?
"
because Bucky didn't have "decades of nonstop killing" he had in 40 years 7 missions against politicians with no fighting training whatsoever, on the other hand Nightwing has been fighting metahumans and top fighters for almost 20 years, I say that's way more experience
#44 Posted by Erik (32430 posts) - - Show Bio

I know all that. My original point was that the only time he was awake was when he was out killing someone. So relative to him, it was nonstop killing.

#45 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio

oh misunderstanding then

but what does that prove?

#46 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky wins whether he is more experienced or not (which he is).

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#47 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio

as of how? (if you say because of his fighting record...Crossbones is a joke)

#48 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nighthunter said:
"as of how? (if you say because of his fighting record...Crossbones is a joke)"
Bucky wins because he has the skills and the physical ability to do so.I didn't bring up his fighting record and Bucky didn't just beat Crossbones..he beat Crossbones,Sin,and the Serpent Society at the same time.Bucky's win record extends alot further than Crossbones.You know better than to think I would say Bucky can beat Nightwing because he beat Crossbones though.
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#49 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
Bucky didn't just beat Crossbones..he beat Crossbones,Sin,and the Serpent Society at the same time.
And Nightwing beat all of Blackgate prison, that's a bigger feat
#50 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nighthunter said:
"Vance Astro said:
Bucky didn't just beat Crossbones..he beat Crossbones,Sin,and the Serpent Society at the same time.
And Nightwing beat all of Blackgate prison, that's a bigger feat"
I wasn't using it as a feat so it really doesn't matter,
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