DD needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with radar and agility and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate BP, or Bats, or NW...... But eh....... "
DD's abilities have been explained.Maybe read the comics first. "
Your comment was not needed. Thank you. If you have something constructive to add, you may respond.
@thegentlemanrogue
said:
" @velle37 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @velle37 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @velle37: He isn't, Gentlemenrogue also thinks that Daredevil is more skilled then Black Panther and that Captain America is more skilled then Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, basically he simply believes what he wants to believe vs what's exactly true and in continuity "
Actually I think Iron Fist and Shang Chi are more skilled than Shiva and Dragon, and acknowledge that Cap has been stated on panel as being better than one of those two, and strongly suggest he was better than other by his own rogue gallery. DD is more skilled than Panther though, so you got that right. "
Actually you would be wrong about that, and who exactly acknowledge Cap being better? Uh no, he really isn't, Daredevil isn't more skilled then Panther is, strip them of their gear and equalized their stats and Panther would beat Matt on skill alone. "
Cap said he was a better fighter straight to Iron Fists face, and I tend to take Cap's word at face value. Based on what exactly? Black Panther and DD have stalemated twice, and considering BP is pushing Captain America attributes he couldn't possibly be on par with Matt's skill or he would roll DD. Panther is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt. but Matt is more skilled. They have even been stated as being perfectly equal on the pages of the Avengers before. "
What were the circumstances of BP's stalemates....... He really should not be in the same league as DD......
@thegentlemanrogue
said:
" @velle37 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:
"Even pre-Shadow Land the simple reality of the situation is that Nightwing is significantly outclassed. For all intensive purposes Daredevil is essentially Batman and Nigthwing in one package, he has the speed and agility of Nightwing, along with the strength and skill of Batman... and then super senses on top of it. I recognize that Dick has been upgraded a lot in the passed decade, that - among other things - he thinks he can beat Cassandra Cain in a fight eventually, but it wasn't so long ago that Batman showed definitively that Dick couldn't even land a single hit on him that he didn't allow. Nigthwing just quite isn't on the same level as the top tier street level MAs, and he isn't going to pose much of a problem for Daredevil. "
How is DD on Batman's level of skill? Strength too? "
How is he not? He as pretty much identical feats of skill, and his pressure point feats are arguable superior. As for strength Matt has flipped over a limo, used a 400lbs barbell as a bo-staff than tossed it clear a cross a room. He is pushing peak human "
if DD has the strenght feats you say, then he's upthere.... But Bats has kicked through foot-thick steel doors........ DD is nowhere near bats in skill... He has speed agility reflexes and radar which usually give him an edge.... But Bats has the knowledge of hundreds of Martial Arts.... "
The circumstances behind BP defeat were that Matt is a better fighter than he is. Daredevil has kicked down thick steel doors as well, pretty every street level hero has... it's not even worth bring up really. Marvel has always left it kinda off ambiguous as to how my styles DD actually knows. Off the top of my head he knows Eskrima, Judo, Aikito and Jujutsu, and obviously Ninjutsu and boxing... but it has been pretty vague on just what Stick and the Chaste taught him. We know that Punisher is a master of dozens of different martial arts, and Daredevil as literally steam rolled Frank on different occasions. With that all said, knowing a large number of styles doesn't necessarily translate into being better than someone who has spent their life mastering one. "
DD needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with radar and agility and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate BP, or Bats, or NW...... But eh....... "
If you say it like that it works for anyone Batman needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with a cape, some gadgets and a few MA skills shouldn't beat or even stalemate... Captain American needs to be explained better by writers... Just a dude with an American Flag suit, steroids and a few MA skills shouldn't be beat or even stalemate... Daredevil has years of character development, he has received trained by one of the best fighters on Marvel Earth, namely Stick. He has 30+ years and a thousand appearances... why is it a shock that he is a top tier fighter? "
Because DD hasn't been characterized as such. You yourself said DD's MA history is vague, but I'm wrong for asking for clarification? huh?..... Every other comic says something about Batman mastering all styles oof combat in the world and being the greatest detective, how BP is the 8th smartest person in the world, with world class MA skills, magic enhancements, resources, and a contingency for everything, NW is the best human acrobat in the entire DCU, and an avid learner under Bruce, incredibly intelligent, with an impressively proficient tactical mind... That's reiterated in just about all of their comics..... DD's incredible skills are not...... He has feats with no clear backstory as to how he can acomplish these feats..... DD hasn't impressed me with anything to the point that i would think he's top tier or even "deserves" to be top tier........ That's simply the situation. "
Well we know the back story, he was a skilled boxer and a gymnast and was eventually trained by Stick. Where as Batman went around the world and studied under different masters, Daredevil's martial arts training was at the hands of a mystic order of warrior monks (the Chaste) and primarily one super humanly skilled martial artist. So it's a different situation that Batman's training. Daredevil's martial arts skills aren't whats vague, we know he is skilled, we just don't have a comprehensive list of what he knows, because unlike Batman, Daredevil has never bragged "I know know 126 different martial arts."
Well we know the back story, he was a skilled boxer and a gymnast and was eventually trained by Stick. Where as Batman went around the world and studied under different masters, Daredevil's martial arts training was at the hands of a mystic order of warrior monks (the Chaste) and primarily one super humanly skilled martial artist. So it's a different situation that Batman's training. "
Actually Stick is whom made him a skilled Gymnast.His origin was slightly retconned.He was boxing before he met Stick (he was no master he was only a kid) but then when he lost his eye sight Stick trained him to be an exceptional acrobat,marksman,and h2h combatant.Appearently he has a real talent for catching on and learning martial arts because Stick had his eye on him long before he trained him.He was a good boxer for his age even with no training.But yes, the Chaste did train Daredevil.Each member taught him different skills to make him well rounded.
Well we know the back story, he was a skilled boxer and a gymnast and was eventually trained by Stick. Where as Batman went around the world and studied under different masters, Daredevil's martial arts training was at the hands of a mystic order of warrior monks (the Chaste) and primarily one super humanly skilled martial artist. So it's a different situation that Batman's training. "
Actually Stick is whom made him a skilled Gymnast.His origin was slightly retconned.He was boxing before he met Stick (he was no master he was only a kid) but then when he lost his eye sight Stick trained him to be an exceptional acrobat,marksman,and h2h combatant.Appearently he has a real talent for catching on and learning martial arts because Stick had his eye on him long before he trained him.He was a good boxer for his age even with no training.But yes, the Chaste did train Daredevil.Each member taught him different skills to make him well rounded. "
Yeah I couldn't remember exactly how his origins was retcon'd, I though he was a gymnast before Stick stepped in but I guess I remembered wrong.
So basically the top 10? I could understand 10 fighters better then Nightwing but Daredevil? "
Well not necessarily because I think there are characters on equal levels and therefore there is more than 10 top tiers.I wasn't suggesting that Daredevil wasn't top tier only that it doesn't matter if he is or he isn't because Nightwing DEFINITELY isn't.
Yeah I couldn't remember exactly how his origins was retcon'd, I though he was a gymnast before Stick stepped in but I guess I remembered wrong. "
Millar & Loeb rewrote his origins in Daredevil: Yellow and the Man Without Fear miniseries.I'll post scans of DD first training with Stick you can see at their first meeting DD can't do a gymnastic maneuver for anything and he cries about it.
Yeah I couldn't remember exactly how his origins was retcon'd, I though he was a gymnast before Stick stepped in but I guess I remembered wrong. "
Millar & Loeb rewrote his origins in Daredevil: Yellow and the Man Without Fear miniseries.I'll post scans of DD first training with Stick you can see at their first meeting DD can't do a gymnastic maneuver for anything and he cries about it. "
That's not necessary I have those both, I just forgot exactly how it went down.
... actually, if you wanted to post the scans that would be cool, I'm in the process of moving so my comics are all packed away :(
@velle37: @Static Shock: I Can Make DD Impress You. As for an Explanation With DD it's the fact that DD had a huge change in his abilities from other writers, to Miller and back to other writers. His Ability to lift and Manipulate Weight has to do with his superhuman Balance. Ask any Professional Weight lifter and learn that there is as much Technique as there is Strength to perform such great feats. He has an amazing sense of touch and Hearing which allow him to hold lift, pull, push, catch, throw and all around control things with much greater understanding of the object. He has strength but more so his power gives him the know how. As for his fighting Skills he was an Elite Boxer who learned from his father, who was a heavy weight champion. He Gained his great agility from what I had posted above to explain how he manipulates weight. Later when Miller took the series he started to focus on the Ninja aspect and gave DD additional Training(almost a retcon) with Stick being his instructor and him becoming a master of the Ninja Arts, after he was blinded when he was in his early teens.
Yeah I couldn't remember exactly how his origins was retcon'd, I though he was a gymnast before Stick stepped in but I guess I remembered wrong. "
Millar & Loeb rewrote his origins in Daredevil: Yellow and the Man Without Fear miniseries.I'll post scans of DD first training with Stick you can see at their first meeting DD can't do a gymnastic maneuver for anything and he cries about it. "
That's not necessary I have those both, I just forgot exactly how it went down. ... actually, if you wanted to post the scans that would be cool, I'm in the process of moving so my comics are all packed away :( "
I'm actually posting the scans for the benefit of people who think DD's skills aren't justified or they are vague.It is clearly explained that mostly Stick and the rest of the Chaste trained him.
- Black Panther, who has handled things that weighed a ton or more (lifted his throne chair, lifted rhinos [bulldogged one, picked one up and slammed it on it's head, and put one in a sleeper hold], pushed delicately-placed boulders over a cliff [Vision confirmed that they weighed a few tons], lifted a full tree/trunk, used his strength vs. crocodile's bite force [which is about 4000 psi], etc).. -Batman, who has supported a 1000-lb ceiling, benched 2000 lbs (I think, not to mention that benching is easier than military press), uprooted a large pipe from the concrete (that was bigger than himself), etc. -Deathstroke, who has barely any strength feats but has the strength of ten men, anyway (according to himself). -Captain America, who has supported the weight of a statue on his back, pulled a supply truck through a desert, forced a steel door open, later kicked one open, and loads over other things.
If Daredevil could really tip that limo (which weighs a lot more than most of these things), he's either stronger than all of these people, or he isn't and they could only dupe the same feat because they are physically stronger than him.
Black Panther, who has handled things that weighed a ton or more (his throne chair, rhinos, boulders, trees, crocodile's bite force, etc).. Batman, who has supported a 1000-lb ceiling, benched 2000 lbs (I think, not to mention that benching is easier than military press), uprooted a pile from the ground, etc. Deathstroke, who has barely any strength feats but is the strength of ten men, anyway (according to himself). "
Yeah Panther has some pretty great strength feats.
I don't think Batman has ever benched 2000lbs. I know there is a scan of him benching that has some illegible chicken scratch on the weights some people like to pretend says 500lbs... but I can't remember if there was for or two of those weights in the first place.
I think some random soldier said that DS had the strong of 20 men once in Wonder Woman or in a WW annual, but like you already pointed out his strength is largely unverified.
- Black Panther, who has handled things that weighed a ton or more (lifted his throne chair, lifted rhinos [bulldogged one, picked one up and slammed it on it's head, and put one in a sleeper hold], pushed delicately-placed boulders over a cliff [Vision confirmed that they weighed a few tons], lifted a full tree/trunk, used his strength vs. crocodile's bite force [which is about 4000 psi], etc).. -Batman, who has supported a 1000-lb ceiling, benched 2000 lbs (I think, not to mention that benching is easier than military press), uprooted a large pipe from the concrete (that was bigger than himself), etc. -Deathstroke, who has barely any strength feats but has the strength of ten men, anyway (according to himself). -Captain America, who has supported the weight of a statue on his back, pulled a supply truck through a desert, forced a steel door open, later kicked one open, and loads over other things. If Daredevil could really tip that limo (which weighs a lot more than most of these things), he's either stronger than all of these people, or he isn't and they could only dupe the same feat because they are physically stronger than him. "
Slade has a lot of strength feats relative to punching and attack power
" @velle37: @Static Shock: I Can Make DD Impress You. As for an Explanation With DD it's the fact that DD had a huge change in his abilities from other writers, to Miller and back to other writers. His Ability to lift and Manipulate Weight has to do with his superhuman Balance. Ask any Professional Weight lifter and learn that there is as much Technique as there is Strength to perform such great feats. He has an amazing sense of touch and Hearing which allow him to hold lift, pull, push, catch, throw and all around control things with much greater understanding of the object. He has strength but more so his power gives him the know how. As for his fighting Skills he was an Elite Boxer who learned from his father, who was a heavy weight champion. He Gained his great agility from what I had posted above to explain how he manipulates weight. Later when Miller took the series he started to focus on the Ninja aspect and gave DD additional Training(almost a retcon) with Stick being his instructor and him becoming a master of the Ninja Arts, after he was blinded when he was in his early teens.
Here's Some Cool DD stuff
Gallery
He is a Pretty Awesome Character! "
DD is pretty cool, wasn't arguing with that, just his abilities didn't seem clearly defined.....
@FinalStar86: That's possible, but in some cases, the power of an attack mainly comes from the technique used to execute it, rather than just strength alone. @thegentlemanrogue: That's why I said I think. It looks like 500 lbs, but I don't really say for a fact that it is, and it's hard to tell if there's four plates. I had the scan, but I don't know where I put it. @ThaMessenger07: Daredevil is alright. Seen all those.
" @FinalStar86: That's possible, but in some cases, the power of an attack mainly comes from the technique used to execute it, rather than just strength alone. @thegentlemanrogue: That's why I said I think. It looks like 500 lbs, but I don't really say for a fact that it is, and it's hard to tell if there's four plates. I had the scan, but I don't know where I put it. @ThaMessenger07: Daredevil is alright. Seen all those. "
I just checked the benching scan and it looked like either a 5 or 6 with two zeroes, it looked like one 500-600 weight per side but it also looks like there are a few smaller weights on the same bar.
" @FinalStar86: Think you could post the scan here? "
"
It's not very legible but to me it looks like it says 200 maybe 300, fallowed by some chicken scratching that presumable says LBS. Hard to say for certain though.
" Why am I not surprised ... a 2 and a 3 don't have a circular structure at the bottom of their figure, it's either a 5 or 6 "
I don't see any circular structure at the bottom. How are you reading it. I'm reading it left to right with numbers being right side up running horizontally left to right. The first character looks like a 2, but it looks like the bottom line of the 2 might extend and curve under, which could make it a 3. I don't see a 5 or a 6 no matter how hard I look at it.
"Daredevil never shows any sign that he's blind even in a fight he is losing...I don't see how Dick could find out.I don't think Nightwing has any chance against DD."
Really? What about that scan of Batman easily finding out that DD is blind? Why couldn't Dick do the same? Batman taught him most of everything he knows. And, why do you think Daredevil doesn't show signs of his blindness? The things that he did to give Batman the idea that he is blind will happen in the fight..."
The fact that that story is a non-canon crossover aside, it exhibits an inherent bias towards Batman. This is the same crossover that has Batman sneaking up on Daredevil because "he's that good". Clearly there's some Bat-wankery going on, unless Batman has found some magical way to stop his heartbeat. There's also a major difference between figuring out Daredevil's blindness by careful observation while working together, as Batman did in that case, and figuring it out in the heat of combat. This will obviously be a very close fight, but I give the edge to Daredevil. He has a level of situational awareness that Dick can never match, and the chances of Dick magically deducing his one major weakness while they're locked in combat are pretty slim. "
"Daredevil never shows any sign that he's blind even in a fight he is losing...I don't see how Dick could find out.I don't think Nightwing has any chance against DD."
Really? What about that scan of Batman easily finding out that DD is blind? Why couldn't Dick do the same? Batman taught him most of everything he knows. And, why do you think Daredevil doesn't show signs of his blindness? The things that he did to give Batman the idea that he is blind will happen in the fight... "
@Alexander Anderson said:
"Static Shock said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Daredevil never shows any sign that he's blind even in a fight he is losing...I don't see how Dick could find out.I don't think Nightwing has any chance against DD."
Really? What about that scan of Batman easily finding out that DD is blind? Why couldn't Dick do the same? Batman taught him most of everything he knows. And, why do you think Daredevil doesn't show signs of his blindness? The things that he did to give Batman the idea that he is blind will happen in the fight..."
The fact that that story is a non-canon crossover aside, it exhibits an inherent bias towards Batman. This is the same crossover that has Batman sneaking up on Daredevil because "he's that good". Clearly there's some Bat-wankery going on, unless Batman has found some magical way to stop his heartbeat. There's also a major difference between figuring out Daredevil's blindness by careful observation while working together, as Batman did in that case, and figuring it out in the heat of combat. This will obviously be a very close fight, but I give the edge to Daredevil. He has a level of situational awareness that Dick can never match, and the chances of Dick magically deducing his one major weakness while they're locked in combat are pretty slim."
I was thinking Dick would figure it out too. If Nightwing figures out that DD has enhanced senses he can manipulate with sonics. But it is debatable between fans whether he would come to this conclusion. I think NW is smart enough to figure this out.
Also, Batman does have a gadget that allowed him to even conceal himself from Superman.
Superman remarked "I didn't hear your heartbeat." Batman was spying on the Justice League for an hour in the shadows before he revealed himself.
I was thinking Dick would figure it out too. If Nightwing figures out that DD has enhanced senses he can manipulate with sonics. But it is debatable between fans whether he would come to this conclusion. I think NW is smart enough to figure this out.
Also, Batman does have a gadget that allowed him to even conceal himself from Superman.
Superman remarked "I didn't hear your heartbeat." Batman was spying on the Justice League for an hour in the shadows before he revealed himself.
This has nothing to do with intellect.It's funny how Marvel characters who have met both Daredevil and Matt Murdock had no idea Daredevil was Matt or that he was blind but people are willing to believe Batman can do it on their first encounter.If all it took was noticing that Daredevil flares his nostrils or whatever stupid reason Batman came up with..you don't have to be the best detective in the world to see that. Thus is painfully obvious that...that was only made up for that crossover.Also I think people seem to forget Nightwing isn't anywhere near Bats in detective ability.He's not even the second best in the Bat-Family.
I was thinking Dick would figure it out too. If Nightwing figures out that DD has enhanced senses he can manipulate with sonics. But it is debatable between fans whether he would come to this conclusion. I think NW is smart enough to figure this out.
Also, Batman does have a gadget that allowed him to even conceal himself from Superman.
Superman remarked "I didn't hear your heartbeat." Batman was spying on the Justice League for an hour in the shadows before he revealed himself.
This has nothing to do with intellect.It's funny how Marvel characters who have met both Daredevil and Matt Murdock had no idea Daredevil was Matt or that he was blonde but people are willing to believe Batman can do it on their first encounter.If all it took was noticing that Daredevil flares his nostrils or whatever stupid reason Batman came up with..you don't have to be the best detective in the world to see that. Thus is painfully obvious that...that was only made up for that crossover.Also I think people seem to forget Nightwing isn't anywhere near Bats in detective ability.He's not even the second best in the Bat-Family. "
@Vance Astro: To be fair, BatMan deduced that the Martian was a telepath in their first meeting, and this was not because he could detect the Martian probing his thoughts. He just figured it out by gestures and things the Martian said (none of which were telling in any way; so I honestly have no idea how he figured it out). It may be a possibility that BatMan (not Dick) could figure that out. Not making an argument against Daredevil; I am just trying to make a point.
And Nightwing will have a hard time distracting someone who has no trouble deflecting projectiles from bullseye and deflecting bullets after they were fired. =]
" @Vance Astro: To be fair, BatMan deduced that the Martian was a telepath in their first meeting, and this was not because he could detect the Martian probing his thoughts. He just figured it out by gestures and things the Martian said (none of which were telling in any way; so I honestly have no idea how he figured it out). It may be a possibility that BatMan (not Dick) could figure that out. Not making an argument against Daredevil; I am just trying to make a point. "
Whether Batman can figure it out or not isn't my argument against it. The way he did it is what I have a problem with.Batman figuring out Martian Manhunter was a telepath by something he said is understandable.Even if I didn't catch how he figured it out..I would understand.Finding out that Daredevil is blind because he flared his nostrils and because of some other ridiculous gesture he pulled out of a hat is asinine because Daredevil doesn't need to smell something to know where it is. Also to suggest that someone with a superhuman sense of smell would show any signs with their nose that they are using it to detect the opponent makes no sense either.DD's nose functions just like everyone elses he just picks up aromas from further away.You don't ever flare your nostrils to that you can smell anything..so why would he?
Whether Batman can figure it out or not isn't my argument against it. The way he did it is what I have a problem with.Batman figuring out Martian Manhunter was a telepath by something he said is understandable.Even if I didn't catch how he figured it out..I would understand.Finding out that Daredevil is blind because he flared his nostrils and because of some other ridiculous gesture he pulled out of a hat is asinine because Daredevil doesn't need to smell something to know where it is. Also to suggest that someone with a superhuman sense of smell would show any signs with their nose that they are using it to detect the opponent makes no sense either.DD's nose functions just like everyone elses he just picks up aromas from further away.You don't ever flare your nostrils to that you can smell anything..so why would he? "
I was thinking Dick would figure it out too. If Nightwing figures out that DD has enhanced senses he can manipulate with sonics. But it is debatable between fans whether he would come to this conclusion. I think NW is smart enough to figure this out.
Also, Batman does have a gadget that allowed him to even conceal himself from Superman.
Superman remarked "I didn't hear your heartbeat." Batman was spying on the Justice League for an hour in the shadows before he revealed himself.
This has nothing to do with intellect.It's funny how Marvel characters who have met both Daredevil and Matt Murdock had no idea Daredevil was Matt or that he was blonde but people are willing to believe Batman can do it on their first encounter.If all it took was noticing that Daredevil flares his nostrils or whatever stupid reason Batman came up with..you don't have to be the best detective in the world to see that. Thus is painfully obvious that...that was only made up for that crossover.Also I think people seem to forget Nightwing isn't anywhere near Bats in detective ability.He's not even the second best in the Bat-Family. "
Matt's even faked being blinded by strobe lights and flash bombs so no one deduces that DD is blind. So it's not as though it is incredibly obvious, he does his best to mask it and I sincerely doubt Nigthtwing, or even Batman would be able to figure out that he was blind.... and even if they could its not like DD has never dealt with sonics before. This isn't movie Daredevil.
"Daredevil never shows any sign that he's blind even in a fight he is losing...I don't see how Dick could find out.I don't think Nightwing has any chance against DD."
Really? What about that scan of Batman easily finding out that DD is blind? Why couldn't Dick do the same? Batman taught him most of everything he knows. And, why do you think Daredevil doesn't show signs of his blindness? The things that he did to give Batman the idea that he is blind will happen in the fight..."
The fact that that story is a non-canon crossover aside, it exhibits an inherent bias towards Batman. This is the same crossover that has Batman sneaking up on Daredevil because "he's that good". Clearly there's some Bat-wankery going on, unless Batman has found some magical way to stop his heartbeat. There's also a major difference between figuring out Daredevil's blindness by careful observation while working together, as Batman did in that case, and figuring it out in the heat of combat. This will obviously be a very close fight, but I give the edge to Daredevil. He has a level of situational awareness that Dick can never match, and the chances of Dick magically deducing his one major weakness while they're locked in combat are pretty slim."
The print is kinda small, but Superman says "I didn't hear your heartbeat" and Batman whispers to himself "HH! Gadget worked."
Also as a sidenote, in Ninjutsu there are techniques and training that is taught to heighten awareness, perception, and lower that of your opponent (senses are more clear and filtered after training, also the stealth reiterates natural sounds already present so no difference is noticed..... It also helps that Batman has "soundless silicon soles" in his boots).
There was an instance where Batman almost snuck up on Nightwing (he remarked jokingly "I almost got close enough to kill you."), and another where Deathstroke was unable to sneak up on Nightwing (NW noticed DS a lot sooner than Bats, so Bats presumably is more stealthy), also Damien remarked to Dick that even if he was blind, he would hear his hearbeat, and beat him down in the dark.
I read a pretty interesting book on Ninjutsu, that explored some nice techniques. And with the things learned from mastery of ninjutsu alone would make someone a very well prepared fighter, among other things. It's a very cool art.
" @thegentlemanrogue: Daredevil has fallen victim to sonics before, in one instance Black Widow had to save him. "
Daredevil has also beaten several characters that had sonic weapons.He's beaten the Klaw who has a sonic canon for a hand and Hawkeye with Sonic Arrows.
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