@Hohenheim_of_light: And where did Grayson receive training that gave him a huge increase in skill between Nightwing and putting on the cowl? Answer: he didn't. He's NOT as good as Bruce, despite one thing in B&R being remotely translatable as such. But, by that logic I can say Todd is ALMOST as good as Wayne due to their UtH fight, but I KNOW that's not the case. One instance of stalemating a Wayne clone doesn't cut it when there's countless examples showing Wayne is superior.
@Final Arrow: I saw (after sifting through pages of search results), but that previous thread had such a poor OP and NO debate, I figured there was no harm in giving this match the kind of thread it deserves.
@Hohenheim_of_light: And where did Grayson receive training that gave him a huge increase in skill between Nightwing and putting on the cowl? Answer: he didn't. He's NOT as good as Bruce, despite one thing in B&R being remotely translatable as such. But, by that logic I can say Todd is ALMOST as good as Wayne due to their UtH fight, but I KNOW that's not the case. One instance of stalemating a Wayne clone doesn't cut it when there's countless examples showing Wayne is superior.
@entropy_aegis: I'm rather tempted to.
The Under the Hood fight clearly showed Bruce holding back against Jason where the Bruce Wayne clone was actually blood lusted when he fought Dick. I'm not arguing that he's as good as Bruce is, I'm arguing that Grayson as Batman is close and his consistent showings show that if he continued at that rate he would of eventually been able to match Bruce and possibly surpass him. It isn't just the clone fight either, he's effortlessly owned half of Bruce's rogue gallery at the same time also.
@Hohenheim_of_light: I'm well aware of Grayson's feats, but many seem to think you're implying Grayson is on par with Bruce. That simple isn't true, nor close to being true. I think Wayne definitely made that quite clear during Brubaker's run, too.
I don't understand why people keep citing surviving against Slade like it's the feat to end all discussions. Grayson's good, but to draw those comparisons is pointless because Slade is well above him. If that sillyness continues, I'll just present the scans of how Grayson handled against Bane, a man physically under and less skilled than Slade. And, it's written by Dixon, the man who produced much of the awesome Nightwing material.
@Hohenheim_of_light: I'm well aware of Grayson's feats, but many seem to think you're implying Grayson is on par with Bruce. That simple isn't true, nor close to being true. I think Wayne definitely made that quite clear during Brubaker's run, too. I don't understand why people keep citing surviving against Slade like it's the feat to end all discussions. Grayson's good, but to draw those comparisons is pointless because Slade is well above him. If that sillyness continues, I'll just present the scans of how Grayson handled against Bane, a man physically under and less skilled than Slade. And, it's written by Dixon, the man who produced much of the awesome Nightwing material.
Naw, I'll make it clear for everyone that Dick at his prime is not on par with Bruce. If I rated Bruce a 10, I'd rate Winnicks Dick a 6.5. as far as Brubaker's run, Batman #600 was nearly a decade ago, in that case I'd give this win to Crossbones but since like 2006 Dick has improved dramatically in both his own series and the Outsiders. Since then he's had several notable wins under his belt, he's beat Ra's at the end of his own series, and it was a sword fight which is Ra's specialty, he beat Jason Todd despite Jason electrocuting him and using fear gas on him, he beat down half of Bruce's rogue gallery easily. He stomped Arsenal [where he struggled with him in Winnick's Outsiders] . Than of course there was the Titan's fight where Dick not only held his own but he fought completely evenly with Slade and did much better against him then Bruce ever did. Yes Slade has stomped Dick before but being able to do that well against him in their latest fight shows that Dick has really come a long way from Batman #600. Then he did tremendously well against the Sensei. Dick couldn't beat Bruce but he'd do far better now then he did back in 2002 during the Fugitive storyline. If I had to rate Bruce a 10 I'd easily rate Dick now as a solid 8.5-9
While entertaining, fights in Titans should hardly be treated as evidence. A handful of issues later and he only stalemates Roy in h2h. Oh, and Tattooed Man only stalemating Vixen? And the Killer Croc fight? It's a fun read with beautiful art, but the writing is rather questionable when it comes to the combat.
Regardless, this is taking Grayson when he was Nightwing, so it's fair to operate with the version of Grayson when Dixon/Grayson was writing.
While entertaining, fights in Titans should hardly be treated as evidence. A handful of issues later and he only stalemates Roy in h2h. Oh, and Tattooed Man only stalemating Vixen? And the Killer Croc fight? It's a fun read with beautiful art, but the writing is rather questionable when it comes to the combat. Regardless, this is taking Grayson when he was Nightwing, so it's fair to operate with the version of Grayson when Dixon/Grayson was writing.
The point of the Titan's fight with Slade is not to show that Dick can fight evenly with him, but that he's come a long way since getting his hide tanned by Wilson. I'd be surprised if they ever wrote a Slade vs Dick fight where Slade effortlessly stomps him, although to be fair they mentioned that Slade is going to be a complete monster when DCnU hits.
That said, Dick returned to his Nightwing persona so I'm assuming his Batman showings would still apply. If you're saying this is Dick pre Batman than I'd stick to my answer of Crossbones winning pre 2006 and Dick winning post. Even before taking up the mantle his showings in the late 2000's were pretty badass.
Odd, I thought the point of having Slade and Grayson fight was to boost sales :P
Regardless, it was implied during the fight that Dick performed well because of his willingness to fight dirty and Slade's "old age. /eyeroll
But again, it was clear Titan's goal was entertain with fights, not write them accuractely. Unless you'd like to also take into account his showing vs Arsenal in the tite ;)
I absolutely love how Grayson gets a massive boost in skill when going from Nightwing to putting on the cowl, despite not receiving a significant amount of training. I guess Bat-factor kicks in once you're rocking the cowl.
Ironically the last time that Slade kicked Grayson's ass severely was in 2005's Titan's East which was before the 2006 period I mentioned. They had a fight in the Renegade storyline after that where Dick pretty much avoided all of his attacks before the building blew up. Dick did get a boost when he put on the cowl but I'd say his boost in the 100's of his series was even more significant.
Odd, I thought the point of having Slade and Grayson fight was to boost sales :P Regardless, it was implied during the fight that Dick performed well because of his willingness to fight dirty and Slade's "old age. /eyeroll But again, it was clear Titan's goal was entertain with fights, not write them accuractely. Unless you'd like to also take into account his showing vs Arsenal in the tite ;) I absolutely love how Grayson gets a massive boost in skill when going from Nightwing to putting on the cowl, despite not receiving a significant amount of training. I guess Bat-factor kicks in once you're rocking the cowl.
Did you read Long Shadows? Dick plainly stated that the cowl and cape was actually a big hindrance on his fighting style.
@k4tzm4n: lol, The Bullseye and Daredevil feats were impressive, but come on, he got full-on tased, kicked around, and suddenly he hears one name, kills 2 guards like it's a hobby, charges through the compound like the Juggernaut, either killing or KOing anyone in his way, all just to get to Sin. Not to mention his skills with the palm strike, neckbreaker, his reflexes with the gun shootout, I mean, come on, that's one of Crossbones' all time best showings right there.
@progenitor: Ohhh, the jail scene. For some reason, I thought you were talking about the scans where Crossbones fractures his skull, thus the confusion. LOL
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