Nightwing vs. Batgirl vs. Azrael

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vuviper

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#51  Edited By vuviper
@Morpheus_: The fact that was able to climb a steep cliff during an earthquake like event that was caused by and explosion is pretty cool though.  I've looked other pages in that issue but still don't see anything that could show us the amount of rubble he is lifting. :-( I do think it is safe to say that the mass would be measured in tons though, He also has a similar feat lifting rubble from a fallen building off of a young boy but it seems to be a lot less debris

No Caption Provided
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#52  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_: The fact that was able to climb a steep cliff during an earthquake like event that was caused by and explosion is pretty cool though.  I've looked other pages in that issue but still don't see anything that could show us the amount of rubble he is lifting. :-( I do think it is safe to say that the mass would be measured in tons though, He also has a similar feat lifting rubble from a fallen building off of a young boy but it seems to be a lot less debris

No Caption Provided
"
Dammit viper, you make me want to re-read KnightFall, and go onto Azrael's series now.
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#53  Edited By The_Ghostshell

Still going to go with Cass here. I dont believe Azrael is as fast, but I do believe he is fast enough so that Cass's speed wouldn't be a factor. However her speed coupled with her ability to read body language would give her an advantage. I also don't see Azrael's training being a factor simply do to the fact that as they start to fight, Cassandra would be able to copy whatever style Azrael is using. She can also hit hard enough to kill a normal human and knock out meta-humans. Azrael could get lucky and land a couple flush shots taking her out, but I'd say more often then not Cass would take him out. Nightwing is just an after thought that could be used for either side for simple disruption.

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TheSavageAssasin

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#54  Edited By TheSavageAssasin

I thin that with what vuviper said Azrael takes this.

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#55  Edited By NightFang3

I say Cass wins.

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#56  Edited By The_Ghostshell

Wow Azrael has some really impressive feats.

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#57  Edited By Son_of_Magnus

Azrael or Cassie

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#58  Edited By Ferro Vida

Based on the feats I have seen here, I'll back Azrael.

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#59  Edited By TheSavageAssasin
@Gambler said:
" Wow Azrael has some really impressive feats. "
Yes he does.
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#60  Edited By vuviper
@Morpheus_ said:
Dammit viper, you make me want to re-read KnightFall, and go onto Azrael's series now. "
haha, good. :-) 
 
@Gambler said:
" Still going to go with Cass here. I dont believe Azrael is as fast, but I do believe he is fast enough so that Cass's speed wouldn't be a factor. However her speed coupled with her ability to read body language would give her an advantage. I also don't see Azrael's training being a factor simply do to the fact that as they start to fight, Cassandra would be able to copy whatever style Azrael is using. She can also hit hard enough to kill a normal human and knock out meta-humans. Azrael could get lucky and land a couple flush shots taking her out, but I'd say more often then not Cass would take him out. Nightwing is just an after thought that could be used for either side for simple disruption. "
I brought up his centuries worth of training not to necessarily say that he top's her in MA skill, but just to preempt any claim someone might make that she outskills him. Despite him being a metahuman, I think Cassie does have better speed feats. Her body reading is nice, but at the speed he would be moving at a little less useful, similar to when she fight's Deathstroke how she say's he's like a choir vs a single voice. Also his superhuman acrobatic ability is a pretty good defense, as we've seen Nightwing able to avoid being killed by much better fighters than he is. They both have the ability to take eachother out with only a few good shot's and Cassie might be able to tag him for often than he tags her, but he is far more likely to remain standing after each hit than she is. Not only is he more durable, his armor seems to be more durable, you may remember a time when she lost her skills and still rushed a gunman, he shot her twice, and it pierced her and her costume, Azrael's costume has bullet's bounce off, (well depending on the costume, some of them are closer to kevlar). If they fight ever slowed down, though I don't think it likely, he also has the strength to easily rip of her limbs. Since I mentioned the costume I think it's a good time to bring up the "Angel's wrath" which is a blast he projects from his gauntlets that disrupts human central nervous system through some sort of magnetic mechanism. anyway here it is
No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
I know that you respect Azrael's speed and we both agree that the difference between the 2 shouldn't be to much of a factor, but in case anyone else needed to see some example's I'll provide some acrobatics, reflexes, speed, etc.
 Nice Leap
 Nice Leap
 Tosses explosives, beats up cops
 Tosses explosives, beats up cops
Catches exlosives
Catches exlosives
 Dodging rapidfire from Robot, close range
 Dodging rapidfire from Robot, close range
 Fun leaping action
 Fun leaping action
 Impossible move
 Impossible move
 Vanishes before the eyes of 2 ninjas
 Vanishes before the eyes of 2 ninjas
 Catches and breaks thrown dagger w/o looking
 Catches and breaks thrown dagger w/o looking
 more fun leaping action
 more fun leaping action
 Backflip, huntress fires, he picks up a trash can, blocks the arrow, and then further embarasses huntress
 Backflip, huntress fires, he picks up a trash can, blocks the arrow, and then further embarasses huntress
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#61  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:

" I brought up his centuries worth of training not to necessarily say that he top's her in MA skill, but just to preempt any claim someone might make that she outskills him.

 But she does actually. The fact that she can duplicate any of his fighting skills pretty much confirms it. She would literally be learning his moves as he used them.
 
@vuviper said:

" Her body reading is nice, but at the speed he would be moving at a little less useful, similar to when she fight's Deathstroke how she say's he's like a choir vs a single voice."

 Less useful? Deathstoke cant lay a hand on her despite being like a choir. And I believe in that statement she was referring more to the way he thinks and there for his moves are methodically thought out and harder to read, not his speed. Since we're talking about Deathstroke, he himself said there was really only one way to beat Cassandra Cain and that was by getting inside her head. Doesn't mean its true but it falls along the same line of characters making statements.
 
@vuviper said:

" Also his superhuman acrobatic ability is a pretty good defense, as we've seen Nightwing able to avoid being killed by much better fighters than he is. They both have the ability to take eachother out with only a few good shot's and Cassie might be able to tag him for often than he tags her, but he is far more likely to remain standing after each hit than she is. "

 Nightwing's acrobatics did nothing for him against Cain and neither did Deathstrokes in his most recent fight with Cassandra. Although I will admit, it does seem like Azrael's acrobatic feats are more impressive then Deathstroke's and possibly Dicks (but that's speculation on my part). I agree that Azrael could potentially take Cain out with one or two shots, but Cain has been show on several occasions to be able to spot, and exploit, the weakness in cement, and bulletproof glass. Its something she may be able to use against Azrael's suit. 
 
 3inch Quartz
 3inch Quartz
 Goes through it
 Goes through it
 Then takes out a room full of cops without being seen
 Then takes out a room full of cops without being seen

 
 Goes through prison glass, bullet proof
 Goes through prison glass, bullet proof



  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
@vuviper said:

" Not only is he more durable, his armor seems to be more durable, you may remember a time when she lost her skills and still rushed a gunman, he shot her twice, and it pierced her and her costume, Azrael's costume has bullet's bounce off, (well depending on the costume, some of them are closer to kevlar). If they fight ever slowed down, though I don't think it likely, he also has the strength to easily rip of her limbs. Since I mentioned the costume I think it's a good time to bring up the "Angel's wrath" which is a blast he projects from his gauntlets that disrupts human central nervous system through some sort of magnetic mechanism. anyway here it is

 I remember her getting shot (but it wasnt because she had lost her abilities, it was because there was a girl behind her and if she would have dodged the bullets the girl would have been shot). She took those shots by the way without breaking stride. I addressed the armor in the post above. Does the Angel's Wrath have to hit its target to disrupt the nervous system? Is it something that moves to fast for Cain to dodge? The scans below are nice, but I dont believe they are anything that either Shiva, Batman, or Deathstroke haven't done.
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#62  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler: 
 

But she does actually. The fact that she can duplicate any of his fighting skills pretty much confirms it. She would literally be learning his moves as he used them. 

She can learn techniques as she see's them but we don't know how well she mastered them. When she lost her ability to read opponents, Batman made her study 127 martial arts, but she still sucked compared to Batman. Also I don't think she'll be seeing much she hasn't already seen, so her being able to learn abilities on sight doesn't matter too much, but the fact that he has so much more fighting experience (though not exactly) may give him a skill advantage. Remember the order of St. Dumas has been around since the 14th century.
 

  Less useful? Deathstoke cant lay a hand on her despite being like a choir. And I believe in that statement she was referring more to the way he thinks and there for his moves are methodically thought out and harder to read, not his speed. Since we're talking about Deathstroke, he himself said there was really only one way to beat Cassandra Cain and that was by getting inside her head. Doesn't mean its true but it falls along the same line of characters making statements.

You're right, Deathstroke may have been a bad example, but i think you understand what I was getting at. Her reading people's abilities gives her an advantage against people because she can start reacting before they even begun their movement, but against someone withe enhanced reflexes and speed it's less, not less useful, but less of advantage. Since Both Azrael and Cassie will be moving at very fast speeds, it's harder for her to take advantage of a split second early warning.
 

 Nightwing's acrobatics did nothing for him against Cain and neither did Deathstrokes in his most recent fight with Cassandra. Although I will admit, it does seem like Azrael's acrobatic feats are more impressive then Deathstroke's and possibly Dicks (but that's speculation on my part). I agree that Azrael could potentially take Cain out with one or two shots, but Cain has been show on several occasions to be able to spot, and exploit, the weakness in cement, and bulletproof glass. Its something she may be able to use against Azrael's suit.

Was Nightwing taking advantage of his acrobatics? You'll notice in most of this Deathstroke fight's the only reason why they last so long is because of Nightwing's acrobatics. Also if nightwing was using his Acrobatic abilities agaisnt Cass i don't think it would save him, but it would certainly help. Now if you have Azrael's stats and Nightwing's abilities things are looking much better. It's true that she should be able to hurt him through his costume, but because he himself is more durable than Cassie(survived being hit by a high speed truck in his civies, got knocked out and put a dent in a building, but he woke up and walked away), and his costume is more durable, and they're both capable of delivering superhuman blows, he should be able to take more hit's than she can. I think this is a good time to highlight one of the scans in the Azrael vs Batman battle.

 Note that Batman is using powerful blows against Azrael's face, and that actually has striking power feats even greater than Cassie (Namely cracking Bazooka proof glass vs her breaking 3 inch quarts)
 Note that Batman is using powerful blows against Azrael's face, and that actually has striking power feats even greater than Cassie (Namely cracking Bazooka proof glass vs her breaking 3 inch quarts)

 

  I remember her getting shot (but it wasnt because she had lost her abilities, it was because there was a girl behind her and if she would have dodged the bullets the girl would have been shot). She took those shots by the way without breaking stride. I addressed the armor in the post above. Does the Angel's Wrath have to hit its target to disrupt the nervous system? Is it something that moves to fast for Cain to dodge? The scans below are nice, but I dont believe they are anything that either Shiva, Batman, or Deathstroke haven't done. 

We're talking about different occassions when she got shot, but the one I'm thinking of she was able to power through it as well, the point though was her costume isn't bulletproof, unlike Batmans. I believe Cassandra should be able to dodge the Angel's Wrath most of the time, especially if he's using it at range. But it adds another weapon to his arsenal, one that comes from his fist, and if used correctly, one she won't see coming
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#63  Edited By vuviper

strength feats if anyone wanted them:
  @vuviper said:

" @Dane said:

" I don't think that tree trunk was ever 20-30 tonnes, that would have to be a tree the size of your street. Maybe 5-10 tonnes. Keep in mind Sabretooth doesn't just that kind of knowledge 'through the system' he has said he is 'much older than [Logan]' who is 125 years. So he has well over a century of actual experience which he spent in the military, wars, black ops, CIA, wetworks and he's just a homicidal maniac who kills people all the time. Also, JPV has a severe weakness in that if his mask or costume were torn or removed he could lose his abilities altogether.  Finally, where does the fight begin and under what conditions? Sabretooth is an expert tracker and if he has the opportunity to sneak up on JPV it'd be over in one hit. "

I was thinking straight up fight, and both at their peak, meaning JPV doesn't need his costume as you'll see in the scan below. I was aware that sabretooth has well over a century of fighting experience as well, that's why I thought it'd be and interesting fight. and I think you might underestimate the mass of trees

No Caption Provided



So a car width on average is 6 feet. judging by the car and by him the diameter of that tree is about 6 feet. so 3 feet radius. Now we can't see how tall the trunk is, but from what we do see we see that it is at least 40 ft tall. meaning the volume is 1,1390 cubic feet or 32 cubic meters. the density of an oak is 600-900kg/m^3(source: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/ShirleyLam.shtml)  so 19,200-28,800 kg or 42,240-63,360 pounds or 21-31 tons. "
 
@vuviper said:

" @Dane said:

" Please keep in mind that in the scan he is physically twice the height and nearly as wide as that car. I don't know how tall JPV is but that's gotta be a pretty damn small car. It would also imply that he severely pulled every single punch he's ever thrown and that even in near-death situations he never even remotely drew upon his vast stores of strength. This doesn't fit with his character at all since he was more than willing to kill in Knightfall.   We know for a fact that Batman is peak human and he was unable to defeat him after he had just recovered from a fractured spine. If he was at the incredible superhuman levels you say that wouldn't have been a fight at all. I value consistency. "

 I think looking at the scan the proportions of the car and his body don't seem bad, if he is say 6 feet or taller, which he very likely is. If you look at the top right panel and the very bottom panel it looks like the tree trunk is about as think as he is tall no? well his strength varied a lot, especially with his mental state. but he has other impressive strength feats, most of which aren't lifting(so the amounts aren't that high), which would put him at least in the 10 ton range wouldn't you agree? And remember Batman has body armor that stands up to bullets from point blank, explosiions, and even blows from class 100's. JPV's other strength fearts were: 
 Easily bending metal bars 
Being able to throw a 100lbs manhole lid like a frisbee (for comparison I though I'd tell you that heavyweight frisbees are half a pound)
Lifting and throwing an altar stated to weigh 400lbs 
Being able to bench with 1 hand and then twirl like a flag/staff a weight lifting bar that was stated to be 600 lbs  (for comparison bo staffs aren't ususally more than 1 lbs)
Picking up and throwing a life sized armored statue (I estimate to be 600 lbs, if you want me to show you the calcs for that too I can)
Being able to throw a large tiger into a cage (the largest tigers get up to 1 ton)  
Scaling a >90 degree cliff one handed while holding over 320 pounds of people in his other hand
and I'm not sure if this happened but apparently lifting a 5-8 ton boulder  And I don't remember Azrael actually killing anyone in knightfall, I thought he just allowed someone to die. Also I think in a forum battle, Azbats would beat Batman. Batman defeating Azrael is one of his high end feats up there with stalemating karate kid, beating prometheus, etc. Azrael has beaten Batman before, in fact Batman Nightwing and Tim couldn't beat him.  PS (if you need scans of any of the other feats I just listed ask, right now I'm studying to I though it faster if I didn't, but I don't have the boulder one, because, like I said I haven't seen it personally) "
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#64  Edited By The_Ghostshell

 @vuviper said:

" She can learn techniques as she see's them but we don't know how well she mastered them. When she lost her ability to read opponents, Batman made her study 127 martial arts, but she still sucked compared to Batman."

We do know how well to an extent. Jinx is a character with a long history with Lady Shiva. She knew her from back when Shiva was in the League of Assassins. So when Cass, who had been training to fight Shiva in Oracles simulator, shows up to spare with Jinx and takes it to her, Jinx remarks that Cass is fighting and moving exactly like Lady Shiva. Then there's the Shadow Thief fight. In which he uses a secret technique against her (a style she's never seen) only to turn around and start getting his ass kicked by the same technique. He asks her who taught her the style and she replies, "You did, just now." So she must have been able to master the style well enough for him to recognize it anyway. Although I agree she sucked after losing her abilities, you cannot lay it all at the door of her not being skilled. She had just lost the abilities she had used her entire life, it was the entire foundation of the way she fought. It didn't mean she lost the actually martial arts skills she had mastered, it was just she was no longer fast enough to use them effectively.  
 

@vuviper said:

"  Also I don't think she'll be seeing much she hasn't already seen, so her being able to learn abilities on sight doesn't matter too much, but the fact that he has so much more fighting experience (though not exactly) may give him a skill advantage. Remember the order of St. Dumas has been around since the 14th century.
 

The first two lines seem to contradict themselves alittle (maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying there. If so I apologize). If she isn't going to be seeing anything that she hasn't seen before, then what is his experience going to do? Her ability basically makes up for any lack of experience she may have. Batman is more experience then Cassandra as is Lady Shiva and it serves as no advantage to either. I actually believe Azrael will more then likely have moves that Cain has not seen before, but so did Shadow Thief and she copied him with ease.
 

@vuviper

said:

"You're right, Deathstroke may have been a bad example, but i think you understand what I was getting at. Her reading people's abilities gives her an advantage against people because she can start reacting before they even begun their movement, but against someone withe enhanced reflexes and speed it's less, not less useful, but less of advantage. Since Both Azrael and Cassie will be moving at very fast speeds, it's harder for her to take advantage of a split second early warning. 

I see what you're saying. But she's reacted fast enough to easily avoid Bizzaro Supergirl on a speedblitz. Isnt Azrael only at Meta-Human speed? Were as Bizzaro Supergirl is operating at a Superhuman speed level.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  @vuviper said:

" Was Nightwing taking advantage of his acrobatics? You'll notice in most of this Deathstroke fight's the only reason why they last so long is because of Nightwing's acrobatics. Also if nightwing was using his Acrobatic abilities agaisnt Cass i don't think it would save him, but it would certainly help. Now if you have Azrael's stats and Nightwing's abilities things are looking much better. It's true that she should be able to hurt him through his costume, but because he himself is more durable than Cassie(survived being hit by a high speed truck in his civies, got knocked out and put a dent in a building, but he woke up and walked away), and his costume is more durable, and they're both capable of delivering superhuman blows, he should be able to take more hit's than she can. I think this is a good time to highlight one of the scans in the Azrael vs Batman battle.

I mean there's realistically no way for me to know if Nightwing was going all out. He was trying to stop her from leaving and failed miserably. I also dont believe Azrael is any more acrobatic then Cassandra herself. I can post scans of some acrobatic feats if you wish to compare the two. I agree though that because of the suit that Azrael will no doubt be able to withstand more damage then Cain. But I also believe Cain is fast and skilled enough to avoid taking any serious damage from Azrael while at the same time being able to circumvent his suit's durability. Thats a really badass scan. But I'd like to point out two things, the first is, Batman states that he's shattered Oak Planks with those blows. Not really concrete level there. And the second is, he failed to hurt Azrael the first time, so he tried using the same tactical strikes again. I dont see Cain duplicating ineffective moves one right after the other. Seems like Batman set himself up to be countered there. 
 
@vuviper said:
"  

We're talking about different occassions when she got shot, but the one I'm thinking of she was able to power through it as well, the point though was her costume isn't bulletproof, unlike Batmans. I believe Cassandra should be able to dodge the Angel's Wrath most of the time, especially if he's using it at range. But it adds another weapon to his arsenal, one that comes from his fist, and if used correctly, one she won't see coming "

Is this the occasion you were referring to? And her costume is actually suppose to be bulletproof. Read Robin's caption in the second scan.
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#65  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler: 

 We do know how well to an extent. Jinx is a character with a long history with Lady Shiva. She knew her from back when Shiva was in the League of Assassins. So when Cass, who had been training to fight Shiva in Oracles simulator, shows up to spare with Jinx and takes it to her, Jinx remarks that Cass is fighting and moving exactly like Lady Shiva. Then there's the Shadow Thief fight. In which he uses a secret technique against her (a style she's never seen) only to turn around and start getting his ass kicked by the same technique. He asks her who taught her the style and she replies, "You did, just now." So she must have been able to master the style well enough for him to recognize it anyway. Although I agree she sucked after losing her abilities, you cannot lay it all at the door of her not being skilled. She had just lost the abilities she had used her entire life, it was the entire foundation of the way she fought. It didn't mean she lost the actually martial arts skills she had mastered, it was just she was no longer fast enough to use them effectively. 

Just because you're able to use the technique doesn't mean you mastered it. Say I had pseudo photographic reflexes and say someone play something on the piano and I played it, I don't have to be able to play it as well as they did in order for them to recognize that it. True part of it was due to her being unused to not being able to read people, but it showed that despite her MA training her actually skills with MA isn't on par with Batman if you took away her body reading. And I don't think she lost any speed.
 

The first two lines seem to contradict themselves alittle (maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying there. If so I apologize). If she isn't going to be seeing anything that she hasn't seen before, then what is his experience going to do? Her ability basically makes up for any lack of experience she may have. Batman is more experience then Cassandra as is Lady Shiva and it serves as no advantage to either. I actually believe Azrael will more then likely have moves that Cain has not seen before, but so did Shadow Thief and she copied him with ease.

I'm saying she can copy skills, but not the experience. She may see Lady Shiva's leopard blow, and would be able to replicate it perfectly, but that doesn't mean she would be able to used it as well as Shiva does. And I disagree, Batman and Shiva's experience are the only thing that allows them to fight evenly with Cassie (or near evenly) because she is faster and better with body language than either of them.
 

 I see what you're saying. But she's reacted fast enough to easily avoid Bizzaro Supergirl on a speedblitz. Isnt Azrael only at Meta-Human speed? Were as Bizzaro Supergirl is operating at a Superhuman speed level.

Actually I'm not sure if she has the same speed, because that is a Bizarro Supergirl of Linda Danvers after she was seperated Matrix, I could be wrong though. It also doesn't really look like she's using superspeed. If I'm mistaken though, I still don't think we'd put being able to dodge superman level speedster's attacks as part of Cassandra's normal abilities. (Cool scans though, hadn't seen those)
 

 I mean there's realistically no way for me to know if Nightwing was going all out. He was trying to stop her from leaving and failed miserably. I also dont believe Azrael is any more acrobatic then Cassandra herself. I can post scans of some acrobatic feats if you wish to compare the two. I agree though that because of the suit that Azrael will no doubt be able to withstand more damage then Cain. But I also believe Cain is fast and skilled enough to avoid taking any serious damage from Azrael while at the same time being able to circumvent his suit's durability. Thats a really badass scan. But I'd like to point out two things, the first is, Batman states that he's shattered Oak Planks with those blows. Not really concrete level there. And the second is, he failed to hurt Azrael the first time, so he tried using the same tactical strikes again. I dont see Cain duplicating ineffective moves one right after the other. Seems like Batman set himself up to be countered there.  

I know Cassie is a skilled acrobat, but I don't think she has as much power in her legs to be able to jump as far and as high as Valley can. I also don't think she'd be able to do this. 
 
 Note his starting position. I'll also make note that he is not yet at the height of his powers.
 Note his starting position. I'll also make note that he is not yet at the height of his powers.


I think Azrael and Cassie's skill and speed are at least comparable, her durability, however is where she really loses points and the reason why I'd give valley the majority. I'm glad you like my scan, :-). You're right that it's not as good as concrete, but he also says it's some of his best blows, so I'd put them as somewhere in between those 2 statements. I think he's only telling us that they are at least powerful enough to break oak. He also says some of his best hit's so it's probably not close to when he's cracking Bazooka proof glass. Anyway, just so you know Concrete has a compression strength of 2.0x10^6 kg/m^2 versus Oack 6.0x10^5kg/m^2, so about 3.3 times. (Sources: http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Mechanical-Properties-of-Wood/Compressive-Or-Crushing-Strength.html 
Henry Cowan: The Masterbuilders, New York 1977, p. 56, ISBN 978-0471027409) (I converted them both to kg/m^2 for comparison purposes.)
 

 Is this the occasion you were referring to? And her costume is actually suppose to be bulletproof. Read Robin's caption in the second scan.

Yes, that's the one. Good to know that her suit is at least kevlar.
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#66  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:

" Just because you're able to use the technique doesn't mean you mastered it. Say I had pseudo photographic reflexes and say someone play something on the piano and I played it, I don't have to be able to play it as well as they did in order for them to recognize that it. True part of it was due to her being unused to not being able to read people, but it showed that despite her MA training her actually skills with MA isn't on par with Batman if you took away her body reading. And I don't think she lost any speed. "

Whether she actually "masters" the move in terms of understanding its principles is moot. I understand what your saying, its the same process as Taskmaster's ability. So really it doesn't matter if she's actually mastered the moves. The point is she can duplicate the moves of someone who has. I also pointed out how Jinx said Cassandra was fighting and moving "exactly" like Lady Shiva. That goes beyond simple recognition. That would be more like if a master piano player played something and then you played it the exact same way. Also, during the time she lost her ability Batman makes a point to say that her offense is fine, its her defense that needs work. We never actually see her attempting any offensive moves against Batman during that time. And like I said, her ability to read moves is the foundation of her fighting style, once that was gone she was lost. If she hadn't lost her speed she still should have been able to dodge Batman purely using speed. When he hands her the disk with all the fighting styles on it he makes a point to tell her "You are going to have to learn defense like the rest of us now." They only ever show that she cant dodge Batman without her ability, they never show whether or not she can hit him.
 
@vuviper said:

" I'm saying she can copy skills, but not the experience. She may see Lady Shiva's leopard blow, and would be able to replicate it perfectly, but that doesn't mean she would be able to used it as well as Shiva does. And I disagree, Batman and Shiva's experience are the only thing that allows them to fight evenly with Cassie (or near evenly) because she is faster and better with body language than either of them. "

If she can replicate the same move as Shiva perfectly, that in fact means she can use it as well as Shiva does. Exactly, to fight "evenly" with Cass. Fighting evenly is not an "Advantage." It only means it keeps you in the fight longer then you should. They are both more experienced and the best it does for either of them is allow them to 'keep" up for a period of time. I wouldn't call that an advantage. 
 
@vuviper said:

" Actually I'm not sure if she has the same speed, because that is a Bizarro Supergirl of Linda Danvers after she was seperated Matrix, I could be wrong though. It also doesn't really look like she's using superspeed. If I'm mistaken though, I still don't think we'd put being able to dodge superman level speedster's attacks as part of Cassandra's normal abilities. (Cool scans though, hadn't seen those). "

Maybe not the "same" speed, but she has superspeed. I guess without actual word bubbles explaining she is using superspeed, I can only assume. And Lady Shiva has a decent track record of dodging Superman level speedsters (Supergirl and that Ninja Cyborb), and Cain is faster then Shiva. But I dont really need to use this feat and have no problem tossing it away.
 
@vuviper said:

"  I know Cassie is a skilled acrobat, but I don't think she has as much power in her legs to be able to jump as far and as high as Valley can. I also don't think she'd be able to do this. 
 

 Note his starting position. I'll also make note that he is not yet at the height of his powers.

"
The scan above is cool ( I cant really tell what he does that is so impressive though?). Ras and his daughter are not the best judges of acrobatics in my opinion. And like Batman says in Batgirl, "Everything is impossible until someone does it for the first time." 

 

 Look how high she jumps straight up and then uses some impressive wall acrobatics

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
@vuviper said:

" I think Azrael and Cassie's skill and speed are at least comparable, her durability, however is where she really loses points and the reason why I'd give valley the majority. I'm glad you like my scan, :-). You're right that it's not as good as concrete, but he also says it's some of his best blows, so I'd put them as somewhere in between those 2 statements. I think he's only telling us that they are at least powerful enough to break oak. He also says some of his best hit's so it's probably not close to when he's cracking Bazooka proof glass. Anyway, just so you know Concrete has a compression strength of 2.0x10^6 kg/m^2 versus Oack 6.0x10^5kg/m^2, so about 3.3 times. (Sources: http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Mechanical-Properties-of-Wood/Compressive-Or-Crushing-Strength.html 
Henry Cowan: The Masterbuilders, New York 1977, p. 56, ISBN 978-0471027409) (I converted them both to kg/m^2 for comparison purposes.)
 

 Is this the occasion you were referring to? And her costume is actually suppose to be bulletproof. Read Robin's caption in the second scan.

Yes, that's the one. Good to know that her suit is at least kevlar. "

 I agree, they are comparable. Normally durability would weigh heavier in my assessment but I think Cain is skilled and fast enough to work around that. Deathstroke has a healing factor and he still cant beat Cain. She took a straight shot to the face from him while he was using a dumbbell and she still kept him down. She's taking full on shots from characters like Malla and still took it to him. She is easily skilled enough to avoid his more serious shots and attempt to remove his helmet and expose his head. From there she has several options. 
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
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#67  Edited By The_Ghostshell

LMAO (Nightwing is like an after though LOL)

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#68  Edited By vuviper

Whether she actually "masters" the move in terms of understanding its principles is moot. I understand what your saying, its the same process as Taskmaster's ability. So really it doesn't matter if she's actually mastered the moves. The point is she can duplicate the moves of someone who has. I also pointed out how Jinx said Cassandra was fighting and moving "exactly" like Lady Shiva. That goes beyond simple recognition. That would be more like if a master piano player played something and then you played it the exact same way. Also, during the time she lost her ability Batman makes a point to say that her offense is fine, its her defense that needs work. We never actually see her attempting any offensive moves against Batman during that time. And like I said, her ability to read moves is the foundation of her fighting style, once that was gone she was lost. If she hadn't lost her speed she still should have been able to dodge Batman purely using speed. When he hands her the disk with all the fighting styles on it he makes a point to tell her "You are going to have to learn defense like the rest of us now." They only ever show that she cant dodge Batman without her ability, they never show whether or not she can hit him.

You'll also remember she get's beaten by a nobody. And I'm not sure how she would have lost her speed because all he did is organize her brain so she could talk. (Hmm I was just looking and she did actually state that she was moving slower, *shrugs*) well I think you'd agree if she was able to fight "exactly" like Shiva she'd definitely beat her every time because of her superior body language reading and her superior speed. Whether it's her defense or her offense that is lacking, it still indicates that her actual MA skills aren't on par with Batman or Shiva.

If she can replicate the same move as Shiva perfectly, that in fact means she can use it as well as Shiva does. Exactly, to fight "evenly" with Cass. Fighting evenly is not an "Advantage." It only means it keeps you in the fight longer then you should. They are both more experienced and the best it does for either of them is allow them to 'keep" up for a period of time. I wouldn't call that an advantage.

I don't mean an absolute advantage, but an advantage in a specific area. So because she has a big advantage in speed an body reading, they have to make up for some of the difference with their advantage in skill.

 Maybe not the "same" speed, but she has superspeed. I guess without actual word bubbles explaining she is using superspeed, I can only assume. And Lady Shiva has a decent track record of dodging Superman level speedsters (Supergirl and that Ninja Cyborb), and Cain is faster then Shiva. But I dont really need to use this feat and have no problem tossing it away. 

Well I don't actually think Shadow Dragon was really faster than superman, when did shiva dodge supergirl? Anyway, being able to dodge 1 blow, is somewhat feasible, but if they are actually attacking using superspeed I don't think any hiuman or even slightly enhanced humans should be able to dodge blow after blow.  But if we were to assume the Cassie is able to dodge superman level speedsters I'd give her the win as well. 
 


 The scan above is cool ( I cant really tell what he does that is so impressive though?). Ras and his daughter are not the best judges of acrobatics in my opinion. And like Batman says in Batgirl, "Everything is impossible until someone does it for the first time."

 
It's impressive because because he is lying flat and then goes straight up, it's basically physically impossible because he has close to no leverage. (try it, on the ground right now it will be amusing for you I think, i just did lol).  And I don't think I'd count out Ra's Analysis, he's been alive for a while and has seen a lot. Another fun move is this one: 
No Caption Provided
For Cassie's acrobatics, the only one that was impressive was the last one. But I think Azrael can get more height and distance. But I'd be comfortable saying she is nearly as good as he is. Here's some more for you to look at. I'd also take another glance at the one I posted of him in his civies to see great height and distance.
 Just wall jumping
 Just wall jumping
 Perfectly aimed backflip onto a man's shoulders
 Perfectly aimed backflip onto a man's shoulders
 He bounced off a car on this one
 He bounced off a car on this one
 One handed holding a kid, just to demonstrate power in his leaps
 One handed holding a kid, just to demonstrate power in his leaps
 Just a grab bag of stunts
 Just a grab bag of stunts
 Pretty jump
 Pretty jump


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

  I agree, they are comparable. Normally durability would weigh heavier in my assessment but I think Cain is skilled and fast enough to work around that. Deathstroke has a healing factor and he still cant beat Cain. She took a straight shot to the face from him while he was using a dumbbell and she still kept him down. She's taking full on shots from characters like Malla and still took it to him. She is easily skilled enough to avoid his more serious shots and attempt to remove his helmet and expose his head. From there she has several options.

But I also think that he is skilled and fast enough to make that very difficult for her, Malla has the strength, but Valley has strength and skills. I'm actually not sure how strong Malla is, but after Valley reaches his peak he is shown picking up and carrying a 20-30 tree trunk. Deathstroke may not be able to beat Cain, but I don't think she's ever beaten him either. Also remember all he needs is one solid punch or a well planned blast of the Angel's Wrath.  She would need considerably more, and even with an advantage in over all agility (combination of acrobatics, speed, reflexes, and the contributing components of skill) his much greater advantage with overall durability It is much more probably for him to come out the victor, though I do believe it is a possibility for her to win. I think of her over all agility advantage to be something like probability to hit. So say she has a 60% chance to hit him and he has a 40% chance to hit her, but if she needs 4-5 good hits to take him out and he needs 1-2 good hits to take her out (these are sample numbers) he'd be most likely to knock her out.
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#69  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:

"You'll also remember she get's beaten by a nobody. And I'm not sure how she would have lost her speed because all he did is organize her brain so she could talk. (Hmm I was just looking and she did actually state that she was moving slower, *shrugs*) well I think you'd agree if she was able to fight "exactly" like Shiva she'd definitely beat her every time because of her superior body language reading and her superior speed. Whether it's her defense or her offense that is lacking, it still indicates that her actual MA skills aren't on par with Batman or Shiva. "

A nobody in name, but we really dont know anything about her skill wise. I'd also point out that its during this fight that she first realizes she no longer has her abilities. So its really not surprising she would lose. She actually comes back in the same issue (still powerless) and beats that character. Who and how a character beats another character in comics doesn't always come down to skill. Also, she's only fought Shiva one time since Jinx made that statement and she ended up snapping Shiva's neck. There are other examples of her move copying though, such as when she studied film of Batman and other heroes taking on Malla and three other members of the Brotherhood of Evil after they had beaten her. She then turns around and uses the same techniques as Nightwing and Batman and beats them by herself. The only thing that is shown to not be on par with Batman during that period is her defense. 
 
@vuviper said:

"I don't mean an absolute advantage, but an advantage in a specific area. So because she has a big advantage in speed an body reading, they have to make up for some of the difference with their advantage in skill."

That's what I'm disputing though, their experience doesn't make up the difference cause they still cant beat her. In fact I would say that it is Shiva's own speed and ability to predict moves that keeps her in the fight against Cain and not her experience. Batman and Cain have only fought one time to my knowledge and it was his utility belt that allowed him to last as long as he did.
 
@vuviper said:

"Well I don't actually think Shadow Dragon was really faster than superman, when did shiva dodge supergirl? Anyway, being able to dodge 1 blow, is somewhat feasible, but if they are actually attacking using superspeed I don't think any hiuman or even slightly enhanced humans should be able to dodge blow after blow.  But if we were to assume the Cassie is able to dodge superman level speedsters I'd give her the win as well."   

Maybe not faster, but fast enough to repeatedly dodge and land shots on Superman even after he doubled up his speed. Shiva dodged Supergirl in  WW #175.
 
@vuviper said:
" It's impressive because because he is lying flat and then goes straight up, it's basically physically impossible because he has close to no leverage. (try it, on the ground right now it will be amusing for you I think, i just did lol).  And I don't think I'd count out Ra's Analysis, he's been alive for a while and has seen a lot. Another fun move is this one:  
Physically impossible in the real World sure lol. Not in comics. Its actually more of a strength feat then an acrobatic one. I'm not advocating tossing out Ras' statement completely. 
 
@vuviper said:
"For Cassie's acrobatics, the only one that was impressive was the last one. But I think Azrael can get more height and distance. But I'd be comfortable saying she is nearly as good as he is. Here's some more for you to look at. I'd also take another glance at the one I posted of him in his civies to see great height and distance.
"
I actually think think they are all pretty impressive in some way. The first simply because she rolls outta bed in the morning and performs some crazy acrobatics and lands on her toes after dropping from the ceiling. The second shows some serious body control as a child even. Cain threw her off that building with no warning and she was still able to control her body and correct herself before landing. I looked at the scans you posted and non of them really look like anything Cain hasn't done or couldn't do herself. Cain can do it faster and actually incorporates her acrobatics in her fighting style more then Azrael does. She can  use her grappling gun to gain height and distance for that matter. 
 Parkour?
 Parkour?
 distance
 distance
Height
Height
 distance
 distance
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 acrobatics
 acrobatics
 more acrobatics
 more acrobatics

 
 



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
@vuviper said:
"But I also think that he is skilled and fast enough to make that very difficult for her, Malla has the strength, but Valley has strength and skills. I'm actually not sure how strong Malla is, but after Valley reaches his peak he is shown picking up and carrying a 20-30 tree trunk. Deathstroke may not be able to beat Cain, but I don't think she's ever beaten him either. Also remember all he needs is one solid punch or a well planned blast of the Angel's Wrath.  She would need considerably more, and even with an advantage in over all agility (combination of acrobatics, speed, reflexes, and the contributing components of skill) his much greater advantage with overall durability It is much more probably for him to come out the victor, though I do believe it is a possibility for her to win. I think of her over all agility advantage to be something like probability to hit. So say she has a 60% chance to hit him and he has a 40% chance to hit her, but if she needs 4-5 good hits to take him out and he needs 1-2 good hits to take her out (these are sample numbers) he'd be most likely to knock her out. "
I actually don't think he's that skilled. No more so then Shiva, Batman, or Deathstroke. In fact I havent seen anything that would lead me to believe his speed would even be a factor. Shiva dodges bullets and Deathstroke repeatedly tags Flash level speedsters and Cass takes them down. She beat Stroke in issue #4 or 5 of her last series (the six issue mini). The only thing that Azrael has in his favor is the strength and durability. His strength can be negated by Cass simply because she can predict his moves and has faster reaction time. I'm not sure just how strong Malla is, just that he is superhumanly strong. I also dont believe he could hit her with a solid shot or his Angel's Wrath. Batman was landing power shots on Az so Cain should be able to easily tag him and she would use more precise strikes. Like aiming for the back of his knees where the suit may keep him from sustaining injury, but still allow his leg to buckle. She's fast and skilled enough to remove his helmet before taking any serious hits. In fact I dont think he could touch her. The percentages would be more like 90/10 in favor of Batgirl. Her own durability shouldn't be overlooked either. Of course it is nothing like Az's but she does have her own impressive feats of durability especially for her size and the fact that she is only human.
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#70  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler:
 So I actually started writing a reply, but when i tried to put in scans it froze

 Went all grey like it should do, but no Image adding stuff popped up... don't really know what to do, I guess I could write another reply... but that won't be this weekend.
 Went all grey like it should do, but no Image adding stuff popped up... don't really know what to do, I guess I could write another reply... but that won't be this weekend.

Sad day, this isn't the first time this has happened.
Here's the screenshot of the entire page if it will help fix the problem, since you are a moderator :-)  
(nvm the entire page shot isn't uploading)
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#71  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler said:

 A nobody in name, but we really dont know anything about her skill wise. I'd also point out that its during this fight that she first realizes she no longer has her abilities. So its really not surprising she would lose. She actually comes back in the same issue (still powerless) and beats that character. Who and how a character beats another character in comics doesn't always come down to skill. Also, she's only fought Shiva one time since Jinx made that statement and she ended up snapping Shiva's neck. There are other examples of her move copying though, such as when she studied film of Batman and other heroes taking on Malla and three other members of the Brotherhood of Evil after they had beaten her. She then turns around and uses the same techniques as Nightwing and Batman and beats them by herself. The only thing that is shown to not be on par with Batman during that period is her defense. 

OK well my point is that she is not on par with Batman and cannot therefore claim a significant skill advantage over JPV. Especially not in defense, she always had replied on her speed and her ability to predict people's moves not actual MA skill.

 That's what I'm disputing though, their experience doesn't make up the difference cause they still cant beat her. In fact I would say that it is Shiva's own speed and ability to predict moves that keeps her in the fight against Cain and not her experience. Batman and Cain have only fought one time to my knowledge and it was his utility belt that allowed him to last as long as he did.

  I think if Cassie was as skilled as Shiva or Bruce and her own speed and ability to predict moves would make it easy for her to beat either without getting him. You're talking about the fight where they are moving across the city as they fight right? Batman states that he was in control the entire fight and that he was leading her on purpose, much like DS did. (Has Cassie ever beat Bruce?)


Maybe not faster, but fast enough to repeatedly dodge and land shots on Superman even after he doubled up his speed. Shiva dodged Supergirl in  WW #175.

  I'll say that if cassie has the speed to consistently avoid dodge attacks from speedsters in superspeed than she'd definitely win, but I don't think she does. (Oh linda Danvers supergirl again, I thought you were talking about the kryptonian one, I think her speedster status is questionable, I've personally only seen her fly fast, not think or react fast)

Physically impossible in the real World sure lol. Not in comics. Its actually more of a strength feat then an acrobatic one. I'm not advocating tossing out Ras' statement completely.

 The point is that he is able to use his strength to perform inpossible acrobatic feats, he doesn't just punch hard. He uses his strength in a variety of ways, unlike most people with superstrength. In fact most of his strength feats aren't one where he ligts several tons, though he has some. Mose involve more finesse, spinning around a 600lb lifting bar, or picking up a manhole lid to throw it like a frisbee, or scaling a cliff one handed while carrying 2 people. The point is, he'd able to to acrobatic feats that she can't and probably would have though impossible, which gives him extra agility points.
 

 I actually think think they are all pretty impressive in some way. The first simply because she rolls outta bed in the morning and performs some crazy acrobatics and lands on her toes after dropping from the ceiling. The second shows some serious body control as a child even. Cain threw her off that building with no warning and she was still able to control her body and correct herself before landing. I looked at the scans you posted and non of them really look like anything Cain hasn't done or couldn't do herself. Cain can do it faster and actually incorporates her acrobatics in her fighting style more then Azrael does. She can  use her grappling gun to gain height and distance for that matter.

 You have scan of her jumping high or jumping far, Azrael can do both in one leap. Look at the one in traffic. I also don't think you can say she incorporates it more, if you look back you're see a lot of the acrobatic feats I posted were in combat. (impossible one to avoid a ninja's attack, the other ninja one with an impressive kick that stemmed from another awkward move, the time he backflips from a kneeling position perfectly onto a man's shoulder, or when he is thrown and bounces off the wall, flips, and kicks the guy in the face). I also have one where he backflips high enough to step on the back of Bane's neck. 
 
The grapple could give her extra height, but using it would slow her down and leave her more open to the Wrath.
 

 I actually don't think he's that skilled. No more so then Shiva, Batman, or Deathstroke. In fact I havent seen anything that would lead me to believe his speed would even be a factor. Shiva dodges bullets and Deathstroke repeatedly tags Flash level speedsters and Cass takes them down. She beat Stroke in issue #4 or 5 of her last series (the six issue mini). The only thing that Azrael has in his favor is the strength and durability. His strength can be negated by Cass simply because she can predict his moves and has faster reaction time. I'm not sure just how strong Malla is, just that he is superhumanly strong. I also dont believe he could hit her with a solid shot or his Angel's Wrath. Batman was landing power shots on Az so Cain should be able to easily tag him and she would use more precise strikes. Like aiming for the back of his knees where the suit may keep him from sustaining injury, but still allow his leg to buckle. She's fast and skilled enough to remove his helmet before taking any serious hits. In fact I dont think he could touch her. The percentages would be more like 90/10 in favor of Batgirl. Her own durability shouldn't be overlooked either. Of course it is nothing like Az's but she does have her own impressive feats of durability especially for her size and the fact that she is only human.

 

I don't think he's as skilled as Shiva or Batman either, but probably more skilled than Deathstroke. Unlike Batman and Shiva, though, Azrael is physically enhanced. Remember both the characters we are representing can beat Batman, I just think JPV would do it more easily. I never said his speed would be an advantage, but since he's metahumanly fast, he should have an easier time tagging her than say, Batman would. Also Batman being able to land shots on JPV doesn't say much, he land's hits on Wonder Woman about as consistently as he does Azrael. Azreal is "at least 2 steps faster" than Batman (which unless I'm misunderstanding, means that he takes 3 steps in the time it takes for batman to take 1), allowing him to easily avoid being hit if he felt any desire to, as shown when Batman takes note of Azrael using his inhuman quickness again, he catches his punch and tosses him. It may be harder for Azrael to hit Cassie than for her to hit him, but I don't think it's anywhere near 90:10. Her dodging ability comes from her speed, her acrobatics, and her ability to predict opponents moves.  Valley should have the advantage in acrobatics due to his power, though this is being discussed elsewhere, she uses her ability to predict people, while he uses his skills, which I admit probably isn't enough to match her ability to predict, but the fact that this fight is moving faster due to the speed of both combatants, mitigates the benefit of a split second of extra warning. So let's talking about speed. Theoretically he is faster than her since he is a metahuman, but even going on feats I haven't seen anything that put's her nine time faster. I mean her feats are really impressive, but nine times faster than someone who  can vanish before the eyes of 2 ninjas? (superior to Batman's vanish in front of a cop, because with 1 cop, he can blink (.1 second) with Azrael, there are 2 so that is not a possibility, also because there are 2 approaching from 2 different direction, they have a much wider range of vision, lastly, becasue they are ninja's they have much better reaction and reflexes than a scared cop).
 
We should also decide which costume of Azrael's is being used... makes thing easier
 
(Side question, Do you think Cassandra is a better acrobat than Nightwing?, another side question, do you believe that Cassandra would take the majority against Deathstroke?)
 
P.S I avoided adding scans just in case.
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#72  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:
" OK well my point is that she is not on par with Batman and cannot therefore claim a significant skill advantage over JPV. Especially not in defense, she always had replied on her speed and her ability to predict people's moves not actual MA skill. "
You keep saying she is not on par with Batman simply because she was unable to avoid getting hit by him when she lost her powers. Azrael has been shown to be repeatedly tagged by Batman and the only thing that saved him was his durability.  Since she is not powerless here I don't see how she doesn't have the skill advantage over Azrael?
 
@vuviper said:
" I think if Cassie was as skilled as Shiva or Bruce and her own speed and ability to predict moves would make it easy for her to beat either without getting him. You're talking about the fight where they are moving across the city as they fight right? Batman states that he was in control the entire fight and that he was leading her on purpose, much like DS did. (Has Cassie ever beat Bruce?) "
Not necessarily. For starters, Shiva has just as many impressive speed feats as Cassandra and also has the ability to read moves. Which is what I believe keeps her in the fights. Second, its Batman. No one is going to let a character repeatedly defeat one of the DCU's trinity. I mean this is the same character who is able to hang with Superman just cause he has a kryptonite ring. Comicbook fights dont always go by who is the fastest or who has the better abilities. She was beating him in that fight and nowhere does he say he was leading her. She used purely hand to hand and pushed the fight, forcing Batman to use at least three different weapons from his belt (and still didn't stop her).
 
 @vuviper said:
" The point is that he is able to use his strength to perform inpossible acrobatic feats, he doesn't just punch hard. He uses his strength in a variety of ways, unlike most people with superstrength. In fact most of his strength feats aren't one where he ligts several tons, though he has some. Mose involve more finesse, spinning around a 600lb lifting bar, or picking up a manhole lid to throw it like a frisbee, or scaling a cliff one handed while carrying 2 people. The point is, he'd able to to acrobatic feats that she can't and probably would have though impossible, which gives him extra agility points. "
I don't see it as an acrobatic feat. Its a handstand. The only thing that made it impossible was the starting position. Same with the examples you just listed. Those are all strength feats. Cassandra has taken on and defeated characters with better agility and who can actually contort their bodies in a manor resembling Mr. Fantastic.
 
@vuviper said:
" You have scan of her jumping high or jumping far, Azrael can do both in one leap. Look at the one in traffic. I also don't think you can say she incorporates it more, if you look back you're see a lot of the acrobatic feats I posted were in combat. (impossible one to avoid a ninja's attack, the other ninja one with an impressive kick that stemmed from another awkward move, the time he backflips from a kneeling position perfectly onto a man's shoulder, or when he is thrown and bounces off the wall, flips, and kicks the guy in the face). I also have one where he backflips high enough to step on the back of Bane's neck. 
 
The grapple could give her extra height, but using it would slow her down and leave her more open to the Wrath.
 "
In the scans you posted of him jumping far, it actually doesn't look that far at all, nor does it look like he's leaping higher then a normal human is capable of. Not really sure how important it is that she hasn't jumped as far and high in a single scan. When there are multiple scans showing her leaping great distances and scans showing her leaping at great heights. There are tons of scans showing Cassandra displaying her acrobatics while in combat, in fact she always does.  I'd also point out that in the scans of Azrael fighting Batman, at one point the two of them jump at one another attempting a jumping kick, Azrael jumps higher but just barely. I also dont believe using her grappling hook would slow her down. Both Batman and Cain use this tool as part of their normal routine in many different situations, including dodging bullets.
 
 Wall walking to avoid cameras
 Wall walking to avoid cameras
 backflip to nerve strike
 backflip to nerve strike
 thrown by Deathstroke
 thrown by Deathstroke
 and recovers by flipping off the wall
 and recovers by flipping off the wall
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Takes out terrorists with speed and acrobatics
 Takes out terrorists with speed and acrobatics
 
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 @vuviper said:
"  

I don't think he's as skilled as Shiva or Batman either, but probably more skilled than Deathstroke. Unlike Batman and Shiva, though, Azrael is physically enhanced. Remember both the characters we are representing can beat Batman, I just think JPV would do it more easily. I never said his speed would be an advantage, but since he's metahumanly fast, he should have an easier time tagging her than say, Batman would. "

Would could get into a whole nother debate on whether Azrael is more skilled then Deathstroke. Also, just because Azrael would be able to beat Batman easier in no way means he is more skilled. Styles make fights. Batman is set up to fight street level martial artists. As we see in the scans you posted of their fight, its actually Azrael's durability and strength that give him the advantage over Batman. Batman was able to land several solid shots on him which tells me Azrael's not as fast as Cain and or doesn't have great defensive skills himself. I'd also call into question the writing of that fight. Batman should have known better then to use a straight forward power attack. Their was no finesse in his strategy and he never used his utility belt. Also, Deathstroke is Meta-Human and he doesn't have an easy time hitting Cain. In fact the only time he did was when he got inside her head. Lets not forget, Cain may be human but she moves at meta-human level speed.
 
@vuviper said:
" Also Batman being able to land shots on JPV doesn't say much, he land's hits on Wonder Woman about as consistently as he does Azrael. Azreal is "at least 2 steps faster" than Batman (which unless I'm misunderstanding, means that he takes 3 steps in the time it takes for batman to take 1), allowing him to easily avoid being hit if he felt any desire to, as shown when Batman takes note of Azrael using his inhuman quickness again, he catches his punch and tosses him. It may be harder for Azrael to hit Cassie than for her to hit him, but I don't think it's anywhere near 90:10. Her dodging ability comes from her speed, her acrobatics, and her ability to predict opponents moves.  Valley should have the advantage in acrobatics due to his power, though this is being discussed elsewhere, she uses her ability to predict people, while he uses his skills, which I admit probably isn't enough to match her ability to predict, but the fact that this fight is moving faster due to the speed of both combatants, mitigates the benefit of a split second of extra warning. "
That's not true at all. I can think of only one time Batman has landed a shot on Wonder Woman and she was caught off guard. There are several fights in which he lands shots on Azrael. It also took Batman using the exact same move twice for Azrael to catch his fist which means Batman was being predictable. For the sake of argument lets say Azrael's is a better Acrobat, how does that help him land shots on a character who's faster and can tell what he is going to do before he does it? She dodges Deathstroke who lands shots on Flash level characters and has impressive acrobatic feats himself. Being a better acrobat due to strength doesn't translate into landing shots on Cain in my opinion. She has dodged characters faster then Azrael before. Who has Azrael ever tagged with speed on the level of Cain? Even Bane landed shots on Azrael. I don't believe his reflexes are that impressive at all. 
 
@vuviper said:
"  So let's talking about speed. Theoretically he is faster than her since he is a metahuman, but even going on feats I haven't seen anything that put's her nine time faster. I mean her feats are really impressive, but nine times faster than someone who  can vanish before the eyes of 2 ninjas? (superior to Batman's vanish in front of a cop, because with 1 cop, he can blink (.1 second) with Azrael, there are 2 so that is not a possibility, also because there are 2 approaching from 2 different direction, they have a much wider range of vision, lastly, becasue they are ninja's they have much better reaction and reflexes than a scared cop).   We should also decide which costume of Azrael's is being used... makes thing easier  (Side question, Do you think Cassandra is a better acrobat than Nightwing?, another side question, do you believe that Cassandra would take the majority against Deathstroke?)  P.S I avoided adding scans just in case. "
Again, she moves at meta-human level speed so Azrael being a meta-human himself doesn't mean much. Cain has defeated two characters who can predict moves (Ravager and Shiva) which gives them better reaction time and reflexes. Vanishing in front of two random ninja's isnt as impressive as Shiva vanishing in front of Robin, Batman, and Nightwing while standing right in front of them in a lit room, and we both agree Cain is faster then Shiva yes? There is also the scan of Batman vanishing in front of the Flash and the Flash searching all over the building, outside, and the block and not being able to find him. That to me is more impressive then vanishing in front of two ninjas. I also assumed Azrael was using the red and yellow costume since technically the other one was worn while he was Batman (I believe). No, I dont believe Cain is a better acrobat then Nightwing. But I also don't think she is that far below him. But going by what you've said about Azrael being a better acrobat because he is stronger, then technically Cain should be a better acrobatic then Nightwing because she is faster. As for the second question, yes. I think Cain would defeat Deathstroke more times then not.
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#73  Edited By Obtrusive

I would say nightwing, unless this is barbara, and she had made porkchops, then she could win, oh dick.

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#74  Edited By vuviper
@Obtrusive: What?
 
@Gambler:
Shortened response :-)
 
Sidenotes: 
 I actually have lots of scans of Batman hitting wonderwoman, some sparring, others during mind control or w/e. (I can post them if you want) The point is that direct comparisons like that don't always work. we take each appearance as evidence, but if most evidence suggests Azrael shouldn't be hit as easily as he did, that's what I'm going to believe. 
So what if Batman is part of the trinity, he's still lost to worse than Cassie. 
I don't think Azrael is more skilled than nightwing as an acrobat, but he is able to do things Nightwing can't purely because of his metahuman abilities, and I agree Cassie probably can too. Just want to clear that up
Batman didn't vanish right in front of the Flash, flash was occupied and then when he went to look for batman, he couldn't find him (stealth). at least if we're talking about the same thing
You're right Batman didn't say he was leading her, I just looked back at the issue, but he does admit to the whole thing being planned, which would suggest he was in control. Also It should be noted that he was able to strike her with much better than a 9:1 ratio, by my count 6/10(4 blocked)  good hits for Cassie and 5/7 (2 dodged) for Bats. 
Yes Azrael has some showing's that aren't as good, but remember that he got stronger as his series went on. that's why both of the scan's I posted earlier were, and almost all of the strengths, were late in his comic. The time that Batman, Nightwing, and Robin couldn't stop Azrael, I want to note that Batman had already tranquilized him. But he was still too strong.
 
Main points:
I was dividing their dodging ability and attributing them to different things. So when I talked about her without her abilities, I didn't use it to claim that she was unskilled overall, but she doesn't use (possible doesn't have) any MA skills in her defense. She relies soley on her acrobatics, speed, and ability to predict. Or for Azrael you can call it acrobatics, + creative applications of strength for defensive maneuvers, since you don't consider them acrobatic feats.  In that category, I think it is pretty close, but I would give the slight edge to Azrael for his acrobatics (which are probably around Batgirls)+applied strength maneuvers.  

For her ability to predict moves, I'm sure you can see how it is not as much of an advantage when both fighters are fighting fast. Say normally it take someone .1 second to perform a punch,  and she is able to predict the punch after .02 seconds, and let's say normally it takes someone .07 seconds to see it coming. She has .08 seconds to react vs someone else having .03. But if combatants took half the time to make those punches .05, she has .03 seconds of warning only, like everyone else has when they are fighting normal people. (That should still be enough time for her to react, because of her speed and reaction time feats, but I'm just demonstrating that the advantage isn't as much) Also the fact that she doesn't use her MA skills defensively hurts her.
 
Third we look at speed, and yes Shiva, and Shiva was able to vanish in front of the Bats (when did this happen, anyway? just curious), but that still doesn't show that Batgirl is many times faster than Azrael. I'm not going to actually argue that Azrael is faster than Batgirl, her feats are just better, but I don't think they're fast enough that you could say she is many times faster. That's why I believe, even though she'll hit him more than he will hit her, it won't be enough to make up for the difference in durability/strength.
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#75  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:
"Gambler:  I actually have lots of scans of Batman hitting wonderwoman, some sparring, others during mind control or w/e. (I can post them if you want) The point is that direct comparisons like that don't always work. we take each appearance as evidence, but if most evidence suggests Azrael shouldn't be hit as easily as he did, that's what I'm going to believe. "
Comparing Batman to hitting Wonder Woman isn't even in the same ball park. Azrael has never been shown to move anywhere near as fast as Wonder Woman so using her as your comparison falls short in my opinion. One is obviously PIS or CIS while the other is perfectly believable. I would like to see the scans though just so I can see the actual context in which Batman lands repeated shots on Wonder Woman. The point is however, Azrael has never been shown moving at speeds that would put him out of Batman's range, while Cassandra has.
 
@vuviper said:
"  So what if Batman is part of the trinity, he's still lost to worse than Cassie. "
Being part of the Trinity allows him to accomplish feats like hanging with Superman (Hush), and apparently landing shots on Wonder Woman. So in the context of the original post in which I stated Batgirl was just as skilled as Shiva and Batman, and you countered with, "While if that were true she would beat Batman everytime." Being part of the DCU's big three all but guarantees that Batman will never lose to any opponent "everytime" regardless of their skill level. So losing to characters worse then Cassie doesn't mean anything, cause he's defeated better. Not cause he's more skilled but simply because he's one of the DCU's flagship characters.
 
@vuviper said:
" I don't think Azrael is more skilled than nightwing as an acrobat, but he is able to do things Nightwing can't purely because of his metahuman abilities, and I agree Cassie probably can too. "
So wait, are you now saying Azrael is not a better acrobat then Cassandra? I'm a little confused. If he can do things Nightwing cant because of his metahuman strength doesn't that make him a better acrobat? And if it doesn't make him better doesn't that contradict your earlier posts about him being a better acrobat then Cain simply because he can jump higher and further?
 
@vuviper said:
" Just want to clear that up Batman didn't vanish right in front of the Flash, flash was occupied and then when he went to look for batman, he couldn't find him (stealth). "
Your right, he didn't vanish "right" in front of him. But the time that elapsed between Garrick going to talk to that girl and then losing Batman is still (in my opinion) more impressive then Azrael disappearing in front of two random ninjas. But we dont need to use that example, I have a better one.
 Disappears right in front of......Azrael ;)
 Disappears right in front of......Azrael ;)




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 @vuviper said:
" at least if we're talking about the same thing You're right Batman didn't say he was leading her, I just looked back at the issue, but he does admit to the whole thing being planned, which would suggest he was in control. Also It should be noted that he was able to strike her with much better than a 9:1 ratio, by my count 6/10(4 blocked)  good hits for Cassie and 5/7 (2 dodged) for Bats.  "
By in control he is saying he wasn't completely under the influence of the drug (while it appears Cass was). Which could explain why this is the only showing in which Batman actually lands a couple shots (none of which even slow her down by the way.) Not to mention he breaks out the bat-a-rangs right away and has to end the fight by blowing them both up. The fact is Cassandra has speed feats that put Azrael to shame, and the fact that she can read an opponent only adds to that speed.
 
@vuviper said:
" The time that Batman, Nightwing, and Robin couldn't stop Azrael, I want to note that Batman had already tranquilized him. But he was still too strong."
And I believe Batman, Nightwing, and Robin wouldn't fair any better against Cassandra. Not because of her strength but because of her speed.
 
@vuviper said:
"Main points: I was dividing their dodging ability and attributing them to different things. So when I talked about her without her abilities, I didn't use it to claim that she was unskilled overall, but she doesn't use (possible doesn't have) any MA skills in her defense. She relies soley on her acrobatics, speed, and ability to predict. "
Her dodging ability is an actually MA skill which was taught to her, not something she was born with. So when you take it away and then act as if she isn't a martial artist it doesn't really make sense. Basically when she lost her ability she became a cripple. Batman went through the same thing after Bane broke his back and he explains it beautiful. It would be the same on some level for Cassandra. She hasn't lost her MA skills, its just her mind, which is the focal point of everything she does, had been altered. She couldn't unlock the defensive abilities she already had. Which is why no matter how many videos Batman gave her nothing worked. It took someone like Shiva, who understood the key to unlocking her skills to get them back to her.
No Caption Provided

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 @vuviper said:
" Or for Azrael you can call it acrobatics, + creative applications of strength for defensive maneuvers, since you don't consider them acrobatic feats.  In that category, I think it is pretty close, but I would give the slight edge to Azrael for his acrobatics (which are probably around Batgirls)+applied strength maneuvers."
None of his maneuvers were creative or really even impressive except for the one showing in which he used "strength" to perform a handstand without leverage. If you can say Azrael is a better acrobat simply because he is stronger, then the same can be said about Cain being a better acrobat because she can do it faster.
 
@vuviper said:
" For her ability to predict moves, I'm sure you can see how it is not as much of an advantage when both fighters are fighting fast. Say normally it take someone .1 second to perform a punch,  and she is able to predict the punch after .02 seconds, and let's say normally it takes someone .07 seconds to see it coming. She has .08 seconds to react vs someone else having .03. But if combatants took half the time to make those punches .05, she has .03 seconds of warning only, like everyone else has when they are fighting normal people. (That should still be enough time for her to react, because of her speed and reaction time feats, but I'm just demonstrating that the advantage isn't as much) Also the fact that she doesn't use her MA skills defensively hurts her.  Third we look at speed, and yes Shiva, and Shiva was able to vanish in front of the Bats (when did this happen, anyway? just curious), but that still doesn't show that Batgirl is many times faster than Azrael. I'm not going to actually argue that Azrael is faster than Batgirl, her feats are just better, but I don't think they're fast enough that you could say she is many times faster. That's why I believe, even though she'll hit him more than he will hit her, it won't be enough to make up for the difference in durability/strength. "
Random speculated numbers dont really apply here. Deathstroke has better speed feats then Azrael and its never given him an advantage. In fact, Cassandra states that Stroke is stronger and faster then she is and he still cant beat her or even land shots on her. We have Batman who repeatedly lands shots on Azrael, and minus one fight when Cain was under the control of a drug, cant hit her either. In fact she's moved so fast that she's tagged Batman and he didn't even realize it and starts talking smack before suddenly spitting up blood cause she had actually hit him without him knowing it. Not only does she have better speed feats, they are feats that put her well above Azrael who has never displayed the type of elusiveness or speed Cain has. I'm not sure why you insist that her not using MA skills for defense is a negative. Her abilities are "better" then MA skills. There are countless scans in which a wide variety of MA specialists call her perfect, Batman being among them. Not actually using MA skills for defense isn't important in the least, cause the skills/ability she actually uses for defense is almost a superhuman ability. She's fought and taken down Meta-Humans with insane durability before, its nothing new. And I have yet to see anything that puts Azrael above Deathstroke in speed. She learns MA skills at a superhuman rate. Batman taught her Escrima (Filipino MA that focuses on sticks and swords) in five minutes. Barbra explains that her skill and speed are unconscious.
 Takes out six dudes
 Takes out six dudes
 before bottle hits the ground
 before bottle hits the ground
 Read the caption. No one is as good a fighter as Cain
 Read the caption. No one is as good a fighter as Cain

 Catches throwing stars by sticking her fingers through the holes
 Catches throwing stars by sticking her fingers through the holes
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I get the feeling that you are putting her speed and ability to predict what her opponent is going to do before they do it, together, when they are two separate things. So its not her speed, its her skill + speed + the ability to know what someone is going to do before they do it, against strength and durability. 
 
Heres the scan of Shiva. It happened during the Knightfall arc.
No Caption Provided
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#76  Edited By Nighthunter

I've probably posted here before, in case I haven't
 
Batgirl
Nightwing
Azrael

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#77  Edited By Son_of_Magnus

 This Nightwing wins
 This Nightwing wins
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#78  Edited By Static Shock

Best debate in a long time.

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#79  Edited By Nighthunter
@Son_of_Magnus said:
"
 This Nightwing wins
 This Nightwing wins
"
lol he does have a point
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#80  Edited By Sparda

Man, I had no idea Azrael was such a beast.

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#81  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler: I don't think I'll touched on everything, but here's a reply...
 
the point of the wonder woman thing is just to show that just because Batman does did it doesn't mean he should be able to do it if both combatants are fighting to the best of their abilities. Because Batman states that Azrael is much faster than he is, logical to think that had Azrael been fighting to the best of his abilities he wouldn't be hit as much. The same thing applies to the Deathstroke vs Batgirl fights, (as in just because that's how it happened doesn't mean that's the way it should happen, I think another example we disagree with opposite effect is Batman beating Shiva twice). Then again DS get's beaten 1on1 by human fighters much more than I'd like, so maybe I'm just biased, since it seems consistent. And I never said that the speed would give Azrael an advantage, but cut into the advantage Cassie normally get's from being able to predict people. Cassie does have better speed feats than Azrael, I agree just not anything that makes her several times faster.  Or at least fast enough that she's land so many more hits on him that it will make up for the durability difference.
 
About acrobatics, I'm saying if you don't want to call the things he does acrobatic feat's, than cassie would be a better acrobat, but it is irrelevant, because the whole point is just to show that he'd be able to do things she can't to avoid attacks or launch attacks.
 
I don't think it's a negative that she doens't use MA skills to dodge, she doesn't need them. Her dodging ability is better than other people's even without them. But since she doesn't have them, and Azrael does...

Notes:
I think Bruce might've seen her leave, but not sure. and Nightwing wasn't even looking. Sill it's impressive, but even if we take it to be as impressive as Azrael's ninja vanish, I haven't seen anything that makes Cassie several times faster than Shiva either.
 
That's Bat's vanishing in front of Jean Paul, not Azrael. Probably less impressive than the cop one. 
 
And if we're talking about human's I agree with Bats, cassie is the best. But I don't believe it just because he said it. Batman and Shiva and Richard dragon have all been called the best as well. 
 
No, I mean he had things in control because he was using the fight as a therapy session. yes, he also wasn't as influenced by the drug, but it's just not what i was talking about. 
 
Yes she's taken out people with enhanced durability and strength before, but they weren't people with strength, durability, speed, skill, and acrobatics.
 
Also since deathstroke keeps coming up, Deathstroke=/= Azrael. Personally I think Azrael could defeat deathstroke. And Cassie being able to block or avoid all his attacks isn't that impressive when you remember he's also been beaten by Nightwing Cheshire and Bronze Tiger(All things that make me sad....:-(). 
 
Um, I think I got most of the important things. This is cool, because some of the scan's you've been posting are ones I haven't seen.
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#82  Edited By Son_of_Magnus

Ya in all seriousness Azrael with his suit takes this he has the strength and speed to win this

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#83  Edited By vuviper
@Son_of_Magnus: But since this thread was made a year ago, that nightwing didn't exist :-P 
@Sparda: Probably because he didn't show it till basically right before he died.
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#84  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler:  Here is Azrael sparring with nightwing w/o having his superhuman abilities
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
 
 "Azrael is a highly trained martial artist but not superhuman - as he has been on occasion correct?"
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#85  Edited By Nighthunter

you do know that unlike Jean Paul Valley, Dick has trained and fought greater fighters in the years after that right?

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#86  Edited By vuviper
@Nighthunter said:
" you do know that unlike Jean Paul Valley, Dick has trained and fought greater fighters in the years after that right? "
Years after which?
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#87  Edited By Nighthunter

the one you posted

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#88  Edited By vuviper
@Nighthunter: The one I recently posted? of Azrael and Nightwing sparring? if that's the one you're talking about. Dick did go on to fight more and become a better fighter over the years, but Azrael went on to develop superstrength that is measured in tons, durability to shrug off Batman's best blows, and quickness and speed that far exceed Batmans.
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#89  Edited By Nighthunter

Dick is also faster than Bruce. The whole point is that Azrael is a good fighter with superhuman atributes? Dick, Bruce and Cassandra have years of fighting, beating and sometimes owning people who meet that criteria

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#90  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler: Gambler I forgot to reply to that being the only time Batman has shown to be able to consistently tag cassie, (even though I that is the only occasion I've seen where they actually fought)
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
@Nighthunter said:
" Dick is also faster than Bruce. The whole point is that Azrael is a good fighter with superhuman atributes? Dick, Bruce and Cassandra have years of fighting, beating and sometimes owning people who meet that criteria "

Azrael is more than just a good fighter, when sparring with nightwing he seems to be landing more shots. One of the times he was crazy he still wasn't beaten by Tim, Dick, and Bruce. He also has beaten Bruce 1 on 1. And Nightwing is faster than Bruce, but not much faster "by a hair" is what Catwoman said. Batman claims that Azrael is 'at least 2 steps faster"
 
And yes Batman has beaten Azrael before, but not at the height of his abilities. And also that doesn't mean he could replicate the feat consistently. Batman has also beaten Prometheus, and Sensie and stalemated Karate Kid twice, but I don't think he should be able to do so on a regular basis.
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#91  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:

" @Gambler: I don't think I'll touched on everything, but here's a reply... the point of the wonder woman thing is just to show that just because Batman does did it doesn't mean he should be able to do it if both combatants are fighting to the best of their abilities. Because Batman states that Azrael is much faster than he is, logical to think that had Azrael been fighting to the best of his abilities he wouldn't be hit as much. The same thing applies to the Deathstroke vs Batgirl fights, (as in just because that's how it happened doesn't mean that's the way it should happen, I think another example we disagree with opposite effect is Batman beating Shiva twice). Then again DS get's beaten 1on1 by human fighters much more than I'd like, so maybe I'm just biased, since it seems consistent. And I never said that the speed would give Azrael an advantage, but cut into the advantage Cassie normally get's from being able to predict people. Cassie does have better speed feats than Azrael, I agree just not anything that makes her several times faster.  Or at least fast enough that she's land so many more hits on him that it will make up for the durability difference. "

 I understand the point you are trying to make, but comparing Batman hitting Wonder Woman to Batman hitting Azrael is an obvious mismatch. There is nothing in Azrael's feats that put him so far above Batman in terms of speed and reflexes that Batman hitting him is unbelievable. Who has Azrael dodged that makes Batman hitting him unrealistic? He's tagged him in every fight they've had. If Azrael had several showings of dodging speedster's then maybe there would be something there, but he doesn't. And the same thing doesn't apply to Deathstroke vs Batgirl fights because its her body reading that allows her to dodge Deathstroke, not her speed. What two Shiva fights are you referring to? Is one of them Superman/Batman? Cause in that same series Batman and Superman take down everybody, its a PIS fiesta. And the other Shiva loss was when she took on Batman and Robin (Jason Todd) jumped in. Which is a perfectly acceptable defeat for Shiva. Can you show me some reasons why Batman hitting Azrael shouldn't happen?
 

@vuviper

said:

" About acrobatics, I'm saying if you don't want to call the things he does acrobatic feat's, than cassie would be a better acrobat, but it is irrelevant, because the whole point is just to show that he'd be able to do things she can't to avoid attacks or launch attacks. "

 I'm only talking about the one scan with Ras. That is the only scan I have stated wasn't an acrobatic feat, but instead was a strength feat. And just cause he's able to jump higher and further doesn't mean Cass wouldn't be able to predict what he was going to do before doing it. How high and far has no baring on whether or not she can read him.
 

@vuviper

said:

" I don't think it's a negative that she doens't use MA skills to dodge, she doesn't need them. Her dodging ability is better than other people's even without them. But since she doesn't have them, and Azrael does... "

 Azrael does.....and? So does Batman, Shiva, Deathstroke, Nightwing, David Cain, Onyx, etc etc. How do you dodge somebody who knows what your going to do before you do it? Its not like he starts to move and then she knows, she can read him just be looking at him. I'm not seeing how this is an advantage for Azrael who's only two real advantages as far as I've seen are durability and strength. Just because he needs to use official MA techniques to dodge, and she doesn't isn't an advantage for him. She could dublicate any number of fighter's defensive maneuvers but the fact remains that she doesn't need to. Her defensive skills are on another level. As are her overall MA skills.
 

@vuviper

said:

" Notes: I think Bruce might've seen her leave, but not sure. and Nightwing wasn't even looking. Sill it's impressive, but even if we take it to be as impressive as Azrael's ninja vanish, I haven't seen anything that makes Cassie several times faster than Shiva either.  That's Bat's vanishing in front of Jean Paul, not Azrael. Probably less impressive than the cop one. "

 That's not the impression I got, but it is what it is. And it wasn't posted to show Cass being "several" times faster then Shiva, that's a statement I never made. I said she was faster. In which I have a couple scans that should help back that theory up. The point was, or is, that Azrael briefly disappearing in front of two random ninjas is not as impressive as disappearing in front of Nightwing, Robin, and Batman. Nightwing may not have been looking at her while she was talking but in all seriousness he is standing right next to her. One minute she was there and the next she wasn't leaving no trace behind. 
 
 Vanishing right in front of young Klarion and then attacking him so fast he cant see her.
 Vanishing right in front of young Klarion and then attacking him so fast he cant see her.

 second and third panel show armed men being taken out. But you never see Batgirl until its over.
 second and third panel show armed men being taken out. But you never see Batgirl until its over.

 look where shes standing
 look where shes standing

 Now follow the bullet. It hasnt even reached the fat man before Cain has already engaged the gunmen
 Now follow the bullet. It hasnt even reached the fat man before Cain has already engaged the gunmen
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

@vuviper

said:

" That's Bat's vanishing in front of Jean Paul, not Azrael. Probably less impressive than the cop one. "

 They are one in the same (Azrael #27) he is not de-powered.  
 

@vuviper

said:

"   And if we're talking about human's I agree with Bats, cassie is the best. But I don't believe it just because he said it. Batman and Shiva and Richard dragon have all been called the best as well. "

 Yes, and Azrael never has. In fact he's never displayed the type of MA skills as the characters mentioned above. In the scan below Oracle is asking Batgirl why she even bothers to train seeing as how she's basically perfect while in combat mode anyway.
 "-When you go into your... combat mode... you're pretty much perfect, right? Speed. technique ...everything.

-Yeah?

-So... why do you
train all day long? With your abilities... you don't really have to train. Do you?"
 
 
No Caption Provided

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

@vuviper

said:

"   No, I mean he had things in control because he was using the fight as a therapy session. yes, he also wasn't as influenced by the drug, but it's just not what i was talking about. "

 It might not be what you are talking about but it is relevant to the original discussion. And like you have pointed out several times, just cause Batman said he was in control doesn't mean he actually was. I have to question just how in control he was seeing as how he stopped the fight by blowing up a gassed drenched bridge.
 

@vuviper

said:

" Yes she's taken out people with enhanced durability and strength before, but they weren't people with strength, durability, speed, skill, and acrobatics. "

 Enhanced is downplaying it. Superhuman durability and strength is the accurate term. Malla has all those attributes as does Deathstroke. I'd also point out again that Azrael's speed isn't anything impressive. On the flip side, who has Azrael ever taken down with abilities like Cassandra? 
 

@vuviper

said:

" Also since deathstroke keeps coming up, Deathstroke=/= Azrael. Personally I think Azrael could defeat deathstroke. And Cassie being able to block or avoid all his attacks isn't that impressive when you remember he's also been beaten by Nightwing Cheshire and Bronze Tiger(All things that make me sad....:-().   Um, I think I got most of the important things. This is cool, because some of the scan's you've been posting are ones I haven't seen. "

 When Stroke lost to Bronze Tiger he was de-powered. Not sure about the Cheshire example though, never seen that fight. How did it go down? I thought Deathstroke killed her in Villains United? And Nightwing doesnt ever really beat Deathstroke in a straight up contest of MA skills or fighting prowess. There's usually a story involved in those defeats.  Azrael and Stroke have actually fought before and I believe Azrael one. But it was purely a sword fight and even then Azrael didnt display any impressive MA skills or dodging ability.
 

@vuviper

said:

" @Gambler:  Here is Azrael sparring with nightwing w/o having his superhuman abilities

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

 
 "Azrael is a highly trained martial artist but not superhuman - as he has been on occasion correct?"
"
Dodging mullet era Nightwing isn't that big of a deal. I'd also point out that highly trained isnt "mastery." And Nightwing isn't anything special in terms of MA (especially back then).  On the flip side, here's Cassandra sparring with David Cain as a child. No way her skills are as developed then as they are now yet she clearly displays some decent MA and acrobatic skills.
No Caption Provided

 




 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 

@vuviper

said:

" @Gambler: Gambler I forgot to reply to that being the only time Batman has shown to be able to consistently tag cassie, (even though I that is the only occasion I've seen where they actually fought)

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This is somewhat misleading. Cassandra had just reunited with her father and Batman has no idea they are related yet. She still cant speak at this point. She sees the way Batman moves and instantly recognizes David Cain's movements. They aren't actually fighting, she's using the same moves Cain taught Bruce Wayne as a way of showing him her connection to David Cain. Batman in return uses the same defensive moves David taught him. She isn't actually trying to hit him, she's trying to show him. Batman catches on and shows her the same move Cain taught her to kill her first victim. In order to show her he is capable of taking down the men she wants to kill herself.
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#92  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler:

  I understand the point you are trying to make, but comparing Batman hitting Wonder Woman to Batman hitting Azrael is an obvious mismatch. There is nothing in Azrael's feats that put him so far above Batman in terms of speed and reflexes that Batman hitting him is unbelievable. Who has Azrael dodged that makes Batman hitting him unrealistic? He's tagged him in every fight they've had. If Azrael had several showings of dodging speedster's then maybe there would be something there, but he doesn't. And the same thing doesn't apply to Deathstroke vs Batgirl fights because its her body reading that allows her to dodge Deathstroke, not her speed. What two Shiva fights are you referring to? Is one of them Superman/Batman? Cause in that same series Batman and Superman take down everybody, its a PIS fiesta. And the other Shiva loss was when she took on Batman and Robin (Jason Todd) jumped in. Which is a perfectly acceptable defeat for Shiva. Can you show me some reasons why Batman hitting Azrael shouldn't happen?


 I can't because that's not what I believe. But the point is just because Batman was able to hit Azrael so easily, doesn't mean that's how easy it would be if Azrael wanted to dodge or block. And with Deathstroke, i wasn't saying it was her speed that allows her too, but I'm saying if they both fought to the best of their abilities, her ability to read shouldn't be as much of an advantage. Yes the other time I was talking about is in superman/Batman. And I didn't mean to say beaten twice, or if I did I wasn't thinking. But the first time they met I do think Batman had a better performance. she started with a weapon, he did not. all it took was one punch from jason todd and it threw her off enough that he was able to finish her off with blow after blow. If he took her out with 1 blow after jason's intereference i would have thought it more equal, but Shiva should have had time to recover from that slight interference by then.
 

  I'm only talking about the one scan with Ras. That is the only scan I have stated wasn't an acrobatic feat, but instead was a strength feat. And just cause he's able to jump higher and further doesn't mean Cass wouldn't be able to predict what he was going to do before doing it. How high and far has no baring on whether or not she can read him.

Ok, and I never said it would effect her ability to read his movements, just her ability to hit him 
 

 Azrael does.....and? So does Batman, Shiva, Deathstroke, Nightwing, David Cain, Onyx, etc etc. How do you dodge somebody who knows what your going to do before you do it? Its not like he starts to move and then she knows, she can read him just be looking at him. I'm not seeing how this is an advantage for Azrael who's only two real advantages as far as I've seen are durability and strength. Just because he needs to use official MA techniques to dodge, and she doesn't isn't an advantage for him. She could dublicate any number of fighter's defensive maneuvers but the fact remains that she doesn't need to. Her defensive skills are on another level. As are her overall MA skills.

Just because Batgirl knows what he's about to do before he does it doesn't mean he can't dodge/block and doesn't mean he can't hit her. She has been hit before and she has had her hits avoided before as well. it isn't impossible. And with someone whose speed isn't as far off from hers, it's easier. And I never said it was an advantage, I've been trying to avoid the word actually, because of the confusion it was causing before. Let's just say that using MA defensively is one thing he utilizes more than she does, and helps to cut into her agility advantages (speed/reflex/predicting moves) And I'm not sure why you think her defensive skills are on another level, I think we disagree on how much faster she is than other MA's like Batman and Shiva, and obviously Azrael.  All three of them have impressive speed feats as well, even if they aren't as impressive as Cassies. I think of her most impressive speed feat as dodging the sniper bullet. Batman has dodged sniper bullets after fired as well, though from much further away, but also had time to start throwing a batarang by the time the bullet came. he's also dodge 5000rounds/minute from close range, which can't be that far off dodging a single sniper  bullets. Remember , Azrael is much faster than Batman, as Batman admitted, so he should be able to do these things even if he never go the opportunity. Still he has some impressive agility feats early in his career(vanishing before 2 ninjas in combat, dodging automatic fire from close range from a robot, describe as a blur too fast for the robots tracking mechanism) and we know he only got better.   
 

  That's not the impression I got, but it is what it is. And it wasn't posted to show Cass being "several" times faster then Shiva, that's a statement I never made. I said she was faster. In which I have a couple scans that should help back that theory up. The point was, or is, that Azrael briefly disappearing in front of two random ninjas is not as impressive as disappearing in front of Nightwing, Robin, and Batman. Nightwing may not have been looking at her while she was talking but in all seriousness he is standing right next to her. One minute she was there and the next she wasn't leaving no trace behind.

You may not have said that she is several times faster, but in order for her to be able to hit Azrael and  avoid his attacks enough to make up for the strength and durability, she would need to be several times faster. especially if you think the hit ratio would be 9:1. First I disagree, because the ninjas were in combat, and looking straight at Azrael. Also, this is early in Azraels career.   
 
Really Nice last scan. OK, if she's faster than a bullet's I'll give her the win :-), but I'll respond to everything else still, good debate.

 
  They are one in the same (Azrael #27) he is not de-powered.   

He still needed his mask on to be Azrael at the time. (read Azrael #28)   

 Yes, and Azrael never has. In fact he's never displayed the type of MA skills as the characters mentioned above. In the scan below Oracle is asking Batgirl why she even bothers to train seeing as how she's basically perfect while in combat mode anyway.

Azrael isn't human, nor is he even a major character why would he be called the best? And I don't think he is a MA better or even equal to Batman, but I do think he would win in a fight.  
 

  It might not be what you are talking about but it is relevant to the original discussion. And like you have pointed out several times, just cause Batman said he was in control doesn't mean he actually was. I have to question just how in control he was seeing as how he stopped the fight by blowing up a gassed drenched bridge.

To get Batgirl to save him right?
 

  Enhanced is downplaying it. Superhuman durability and strength is the accurate term. Malla has all those attributes as does Deathstroke. I'd also point out again that Azrael's speed isn't anything impressive. On the flip side, who has Azrael ever taken down with abilities like Cassandra?

I haven't actually seen a lot of speed feats for Deathstroke. but vanishing IS an impressive feat seeing how our eyes are able to process an equivalent of 60 frames/second (though our eyes don't exactly work in fps) he would have had to move out of their line of sight in .017 seconds and from that distance we'd be able to see roughly 10x20ft (or is it 20 by 10 i forget how to do measurements) which is atleast 600 feet/second or 183 m/s.  (pistols have a muzzle velocity of 330m/s, sniper rifles have a muzzle velocity of 860m/s, and tank guns can reach 1,800 m/s) 
 

  When Stroke lost to Bronze Tiger he was de-powered. Not sure about the Cheshire example though, never seen that fight. How did it go down? I thought Deathstroke killed her in Villains United? And Nightwing doesnt ever really beat Deathstroke in a straight up contest of MA skills or fighting prowess. There's usually a story involved in those defeats.  Azrael and Stroke have actually fought before and I believe Azrael one. But it was purely a sword fight and even then Azrael didnt display any impressive MA skills or dodging ability.

I thought he was only depowerd in the blue costume? Hadn't he just came back to life before fighting BT, he couldn't have done that depowered right? I'm not sure what you mean by in a straight up MA contest, but he still is able to beat him. The times I'm thinking of is when he was fighting for Ravager, but I don't remember exactly how it went down. I can give you the cheshire fight after this post. :-)
 

 Dodging mullet era Nightwing isn't that big of a deal. I'd also point out that highly trained isnt "mastery." And Nightwing isn't anything special in terms of MA (especially back then).  On the flip side, here's Cassandra sparring with David Cain as a child. No way her skills are as developed then as they are now yet she clearly displays some decent MA and acrobatic skills.

Just showing that even without his abilities he seems to be better than Nightwing. And I think Azrael improved more since then than Cassie did since she was a child (taking into account strength and other superhuman abilities he later gains of course)
 

 This is somewhat misleading. Cassandra had been living on the streets for some time before this encounter and there are a couple scans missing. She sees the way Batman moves and instantly recognizes David Cain's movements. It throws her off, gets inside her head. Not trying to downplay it but there are other factors surrounding this confrontation. I'll try to dig up the entire scene so we can look at the overall picture.

I didn't realize it wasn't the whole thing. Thats all I have, please do post the rest. sorry.
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#93  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler said:

 look where shes standing
 look where shes standing

 Now follow the bullet. It hasnt even reached the fat man before Cain has already engaged the gunmen
 Now follow the bullet. It hasnt even reached the fat man before Cain has already engaged the gunmen
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"
This was the speed feat was the feather that broke my back. lol
 
Here's the cheshire vs deathstroke scans, and yes he's wearing the black costume, but he does infact have his powers back, she gave them back to him earlier in the issue. (Deathstroke's series but i don't remember the issue number)
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
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#94  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:

" I can't because that's not what I believe. But the point is just because Batman was able to hit Azrael so easily, doesn't mean that's how easy it would be if Azrael wanted to dodge or block. And with Deathstroke, i wasn't saying it was her speed that allows her too, but I'm saying if they both fought to the best of their abilities, her ability to read shouldn't be as much of an advantage. Yes the other time I was talking about is in superman/Batman. And I didn't mean to say beaten twice, or if I did I wasn't thinking. But the first time they met I do think Batman had a better performance. she started with a weapon, he did not. all it took was one punch from jason todd and it threw her off enough that he was able to finish her off with blow after blow. If he took her out with 1 blow after jason's intereference i would have thought it more equal, but Shiva should have had time to recover from that slight interference by then. "

Azrael doesnt have the same speed or dodging feats that Wonder Woman does is all I'm saying. Comparing Batman hitting Wonder Woman, to him hitting Azrael doesn't really make much sense to me. Now if Azrael had an impressive list or showings in which he dodged and or blocked characters well beyond Batman's speed then I could see where you were coming from. But as such he doesn't. I also don't see how her ability to read movements (which is actually the ability to predict what someone is going to do before they do it) is not a huge advantage. Even against someone with Deathstroke's speed. Usually when a character is shown to do something repeatedly its genuinely accepted as the norm. In which case Cass has repeatedly used her ability to easily avoid Deathstroke and others. No way did Batman have a better showing in their first fight. Yes she started out with nunchucks, but he actually only lands one shot on her leading up to Robin's interference. And lets not completely down play Jason's role here. He comes up from behind her and hits her in the back of the head simultaneously as Batman is throwing a punch. The rest of the shots he lands are actually all one continuous move. He even states how amazed he is that she doesn't go down immediately. But she had no time to recover.
No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
@vuviper said:

" Ok, and I never said it would effect her ability to read his movements, just her ability to hit him."

She can hit him before he moves. That's kind of what I was going for. How acrobatic he is gets countered by the fact that she is fast enough and able to predict his moves in order to hit him before he even starts to flip, jump, etc etc.
 
@vuviper said:

" Just because Batgirl knows what he's about to do before he does it doesn't mean he can't dodge/block and doesn't mean he can't hit her. She has been hit before and she has had her hits avoided before as well. it isn't impossible. And with someone whose speed isn't as far off from hers, it's easier. And I never said it was an advantage, I've been trying to avoid the word actually, because of the confusion it was causing before. Let's just say that using MA defensively is one thing he utilizes more than she does, and helps to cut into her agility advantages (speed/reflex/predicting moves) And I'm not sure why you think her defensive skills are on another level, I think we disagree on how much faster she is than other MA's like Batman and Shiva, and obviously Azrael.  All three of them have impressive speed feats as well, even if they aren't as impressive as Cassies. I think of her most impressive speed feat as dodging the sniper bullet. Batman has dodged sniper bullets after fired as well, though from much further away, but also had time to start throwing a batarang by the time the bullet came. he's also dodge 5000rounds/minute from close range, which can't be that far off dodging a single sniper  bullets. Remember , Azrael is much faster than Batman, as Batman admitted, so he should be able to do these things even if he never go the opportunity. Still he has some impressive agility feats early in his career(vanishing before 2 ninjas in combat, dodging automatic fire from close range from a robot, describe as a blur too fast for the robots tracking mechanism) and we know he only got better."

You are right, it doesn't mean that. But it does mean she has a major advantage over him in both speed, reflexes, and precog. I'm not saying it is impossible to hit her, what I am saying is that she is fast enough, coupled with her skill/ability, to land way more shots on Azrael while avoiding any serious damage from his. I haven' seen anything in the way of Azrael's speed that puts him "just off" Cassandra's speed. In fact didnt I see you post somewhere that Catwoman said Azrael was just barely faster then Batman? Can you explain to me how Azrael using MA defense cuts her agility, reflexes, and predicting moves? She fights martial artists all the time without having her abilities compromised. And I wouldn't even put Azrael on the same level as most of the MA fighters she's faced. Youre not sure why I have her defensive skills on another level? Cause martial artists who are above Azrael are repeatedly shown having diffeculty landing shots. Certainly any with any sort of incapacitating force behind them. You bring up Batman dodging sniper fire and as you can see below, Cass can dodge Batman. Her bullet timing feats put Shiva's and Batman's to shame (and Azrael's). Cassandra also has close range dodging of automatic weapons from robots and meta-humans alike. Her dodging a sniper bullet (as a child) isnt really her most impressive speed feat in my opinion. The scan of her moving faster then a bullet probably is. Also, Batman usually dodges bullets with anticipation, not always, but usually. Cassandra is always depicted as dodging bullets after they have been fired. She also has a nice bat-a-rang vs a bullet feat. I've also seen a scan (but havent read the issue) that states Catwoman was able to outmaneuver Azrael, but it doesnt really look like him. He's in a suit I've never seen. I'd like to find out more about the context of the scan, cause if Catwoman is agile and fast enough to outmaneuver Azrael then Cassandra surely is.
 Chopping, kicking, and catching multiple arrows.
 Chopping, kicking, and catching multiple arrows.

 easily dodging Shadow Thief whos using a secret form of Martial Arts
 easily dodging Shadow Thief whos using a secret form of Martial Arts

 speaks for itself
 speaks for itself

 
 Joker has the barrel pressed up against the mans headand fires
 Joker has the barrel pressed up against the mans headand fires
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Cassandra is able to throw a batarang fast enough to intercept the bullet
 Cassandra is able to throw a batarang fast enough to intercept the bullet
 


 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
@vuviper said:

"   You may not have said that she is several times faster, but in order for her to be able to hit Azrael and  avoid his attacks enough to make up for the strength and durability, she would need to be several times faster. especially if you think the hit ratio would be 9:1. First I disagree, because the ninjas were in combat, and looking straight at Azrael. Also, this is early in Azraels career.   
Really Nice last scan. OK, if she's faster than a bullet's I'll give her the win :-), but I'll respond to everything else still, good debate."

I believe she is several times faster then Azrael, not Shiva. And even if you want to discount the Shiva vanishing scan, the one I posted of Cassandra disappearing while directly in front of Clarion and then being able to repeatedly land shots on him without him seeing her should. Disappearing briefly while two no names attack and then reappearing to slam their heads isn't as impressive as disappearing the entire time you're fighting someone (an actual established magic user character at that).
 
  @vuviper said:

" He still needed his mask on to be Azrael at the time. (read Azrael #28)   

. "

I don't have that issue. But I still don't see how Batman disappearing while JPV is looking right at him changes simply because he isn't wearing his mask. You should him sparring with Nightwing while having no powers and was seemingly faster. So this should have no negative impact on the impressiveness of Batman vanishing from his sight.
 
@vuviper said:

" Azrael isn't human, nor is he even a major character why would he be called the best? And I don't think he is a MA better or even equal to Batman, but I do think he would win in a fight."

Batman never states that she is the best "human" anything. He just says she has no equal as a fighter. And Shiva isn't a major character either and she's been called the best. Azrael even had his own comic. Bronze Tiger and Shiva never have, so not being a major character has no impact on him not being considered the best by anybody. But we both agree that he isn't on par with Batman in terms of MA anyway so...
 
@vuviper said:

" To get Batgirl to save him right?"

Is that why he did? I just assumed he couldn't stop her any other way.
 
@vuviper said:

" I haven't actually seen a lot of speed feats for Deathstroke. but vanishing IS an impressive feat seeing how our eyes are able to process an equivalent of 60 frames/second (though our eyes don't exactly work in fps) he would have had to move out of their line of sight in .017 seconds and from that distance we'd be able to see roughly 10x20ft (or is it 20 by 10 i forget how to do measurements) which is atleast 600 feet/second or 183 m/s.  (pistols have a muzzle velocity of 330m/s, sniper rifles have a muzzle velocity of 860m/s, and tank guns can reach 1,800 m/s)  "

No offense, but you are now crossing comicbook feats with real life which never works out. If someone was to vanish in front of our eyes in the real world then yes, it would be impressive. In comics however it is nothing that any semi-accomplished ninja and or martial artist doesn't do on the regular. By this regard Cassandra dodging a bullet after its been fired and almost to her head before dodging it (without looking) would be somewhere beyond impressive :P Here are some Deathstroke speed feats.
 
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

 Uses speed and agility to briefly lose Superman
 Uses speed and agility to briefly lose Superman

 reacting with the speed of his thought
 reacting with the speed of his thought






 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Fast enough to take out a speed blitzing Kid Flash
 Fast enough to take out a speed blitzing Kid Flash
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  @vuviper said:

" I thought he was only depowerd in the blue costume? Hadn't he just came back to life before fighting BT, he couldn't have done that depowered right? I'm not sure what you mean by in a straight up MA contest, but he still is able to beat him. The times I'm thinking of is when he was fighting for Ravager, but I don't remember exactly how it went down. I can give you the cheshire fight after this post. :-) 

He was losing his abilities during his entire first run (which includes the BT fight). He was already sick during his famous beatdown of Batman in issue #7 and although he cameback after losing to Bronze and Deadshot, he wasn't fully powered. In fact when he comes back he's seeing things, like police officers as monsters and crazy ish like that.
 
@vuviper said:

" Just showing that even without his abilities he seems to be better than Nightwing. And I think Azrael improved more since then than Cassie did since she was a child (taking into account strength and other superhuman abilities he later gains of course) "

Which isn't saying much. I'd also agrue that Cass has improved more in terms of skills seeing has how she can copy the styles and techniques of the people she faces. That list has only grown since she was a child and now includes some of the top MA fighters in the DCU. Didnt Azrael stop his system training before it was complete? In his fight against Deathstroke Slade even comments on how Azrael is quick but has no technique.
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#95  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler: Since I already conceded I'm only gonna reply to a few. :-) First, some of the things you mentioned, Catwoman and Deathstroke, wasn't at Azrael's peak. Thin about the azrael Batman vanished in front of and the azrael fighting nightwing, is the former is just plain old jean paul valley computer science student, the latter is azrael without any super human strength or abilities, (like I said it fluctuated a lot)  But that's not to say vanishing in front of anyone isn't impressive, it's just not as impressive as it would have been.
 

 No offense, but you are now crossing comicbook feats with real life which never works out. If someone was to vanish in front of our eyes in the real world then yes, it would be impressive. In comics however it is nothing that any semi-accomplished ninja and or martial artist doesn't do on the regular. By this regard Cassandra dodging a bullet after its been fired and almost to her head before dodging it (without looking) would be somewhere beyond impressive :P Here are some Deathstroke speed feats.


 Much of the vanishing or bullet dodgning feats are humanly impossible, but I think the only good way to compare the impressiveness of feats is applying real world mechanics, since comic book worlds are based on ours anyway. I don't think you can go based solely on who else has been able to perform those feats. If we take cassie to be fast enough to pull of that bullet dodge, we have to take Azrael, and anyone else who has a ninja vanish feat to be fast enough to perform that feat as well.
 
Thanks for the DS speed feats, like I said I hadn't seen any 
 

 Batman never states that she is the best "human" anything. He just says she has no equal as a fighter.

I don't think he needs to, I'm pretty sure it's assumed he's not counting people like Wonder Woman. He's probably not even counting Deathstroke. 
 

 I believe she is several times faster then Azrael, not Shiva

Wait you think Shiva is faster than Azrael?
 

  I've also seen a scan (but havent read the issue) that states Catwoman was able to outmaneuver Azrael, but it doesnt really look like him. He's in a suit I've never seen. I'd like to find out more about the context of the scan, cause if Catwoman is agile and fast enough to outmaneuver Azrael then Cassandra surely is. 

I know they've met a couple times but don't know which one you've seen. using the same logic I could take Batman's fight with Cassie and say if Batman is fast enough to block and land shots on  Batgirl then Azrael surely is.
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#96  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler: I also want to say that I think it's understandable for someone to think either Cassie or Valley would win. It just depends on which feats they weight more or focus on more. Sure you can say things like Deathstroke's speed didn't help him against Cassie ability to predict. But Batman studied under Cain as well, and Cain showed him how to read body language, though he did say he wished he got to him earlier, and it didn't help him against Azrael. 
 
Or you can look at both of them depowered to measure there skills and then factor in their abilities, cassie fought against better opponents and faired terribly Azrael sparred with nightwing and seemed better, there doesn't seem to be such a skill descrepency there.

Or look at how they did against skilled opponenets or common opponents
Batgirl beat and killed Shiva and stalemated Batman, but in neither fight did she seem untouchable and she took significant damage in both. Azrael beat Batman rather easily and overpowered Batman Nightwing and Robin. He shrugged off Batman's best attacks and could have killed him but saved his life instead.
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#97  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:
" Much of the vanishing or bullet dodgning feats are humanly impossible, but I think the only good way to compare the impressiveness of feats is applying real world mechanics, since comic book worlds are based on ours anyway. I don't think you can go based solely on who else has been able to perform those feats. If we take cassie to be fast enough to pull of that bullet dodge, we have to take Azrael, and anyone else who has a ninja vanish feat to be fast enough to perform that feat as well."
The Worlds may be based off ours but I don't believe anybody agrees that comparing comicbook feats to real world capabilities is a viable way of displaying skill. Like I said, in the Real World people don't vanish in front of other people yet in comics its a typical feat that most, if not all, street level characters have done. And there for, not that impressive. The thing about Cass dodging bullets is that she is repeatedly illustrated as dodging bullets after they have been fired, and actually waiting on them. Just cause a character has vanished in front of another character in no way means they are as fast as Cass. Of course anyone can "speculate," but we have actual proof of Cassandra's speed. Thats like saying any character with some acrobatic feats is automatically as agile as Nightwing or Creeper. Azrael's been in enough comics to get an accurate assessment of his abilities and he's never demonstrated the speed Cass has. The closes he's come is dodging bullets. The thing is though the artists and writers make a clear point to illustrate the manner in which Cassandra does it and it sets her above the other bullet dodgers. 
 
@vuviper said:
 "I don't think he needs to, I'm pretty sure it's assumed he's not counting people like Wonder Woman. He's probably not even counting Deathstroke. "
Speculation. But since I dont put Azrael anywhere near Wonder Woman(dont think many other people would either) its a moot point if he's including her or not. He simply states no one is a better "fighter" then Cassandra is. I'm not sure why he wouldn't be including Deathstroke when he's talking about Nightwing originally. He's telling Cain to go help Nightwing and says he's not the fighter you are, no one is. You pointed out earlier that Nightwing has defeated Deathstroke. So if he's including Nightwing I dont see why he would be leaving Deathstroke out.
 
@vuviper said:

Wait you think Shiva is faster than Azrael?"

Yup. I still haven't seen any speed feats that separate Azrael.
 
@vuviper said:
" I know they've met a couple times but don't know which one you've seen. using the same logic I could take Batman's fight with Cassie and say if Batman is fast enough to block and land shots on  Batgirl then Azrael surely is. "
Except being outmaneuvered by Catwoman drops Azrael further down then being hit by Batman drops Cassandra down. In fact one could even say that Cain was under the influence of drugs at the time, or that Batman and Cain train together so often that its only reasonable that no matter how fast she is he would be able to block at least a couple strikes while landing some of his own. I'm not going to use that, just saying. The time I'm talking about happened in Catwoman #70 I believe. She easily outmaneuvers him even after he had a hold of her wrists.




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#98  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@vuviper said:
" I also want to say that I think it's understandable for someone to think either Cassie or Valley would win. It just depends on which feats they weight more or focus on more. Sure you can say things like Deathstroke's speed didn't help him against Cassie ability to predict. But Batman studied under Cain as well, and Cain showed him how to read body language, though he did say he wished he got to him earlier, and it didn't help him against Azrael. "
Batman's training with Cain was nothing like the training Cassandra received. She was the only "perfected" test subject at the time (this is after Bruce's training.) Batman's bodyreading is nowhere near, and has never been shown, to be on the level of Cassandra's. Ravager has bodyreading that is described as Procog and Cassandra was able to avoid taking any damage from her and actually slit her throat. In fact in the Batman vs Azrael fight Batman used the same move twice in a row. Someone who has mastered reading body language doesnt make silly mistakes like that. They're already two or more moves ahead of their opponent.
 
@vuviper said:
" Or you can look at both of them depowered to measure there skills and then factor in their abilities, cassie fought against better opponents and faired terribly Azrael sparred with nightwing and seemed better, there doesn't seem to be such a skill descrepency there. "
Okay, first fight was with a nobody character, she didn't even realize she didn't have her abilities until she was already charging forward (she later beats this character still de-powered with one punch). Second time out against Batman we never see her do anything except try to dodge him which she cant. It wasn't even a fight as we see when she gets her abilities back, the whole exercise was a defensive one. Her last fight (which was an actual fight and not a sparing match) was against Lady Shiva. Azrael with no powers would have suffered the same fate against anyone of those opponents. And I'm pretty sure there are more low end showings of Azrael while being de-powered besides his spar with Nightwing.
 
@vuviper said:
" Or look at how they did against skilled opponenets or common opponents Batgirl beat and killed Shiva and stalemated Batman, but in neither fight did she seem untouchable and she took significant damage in both. Azrael beat Batman rather easily and overpowered Batman Nightwing and Robin. He shrugged off Batman's best attacks and could have killed him but saved his life instead. "
Cain's last fight with Shiva she stomped her out without being touched. In Azrael's fight with Deathstroke he doesn't display any major advantages (acrobatics, strength, skill, or speed) and he actually only wins cause Deathstroke gets poisoned or tranqed. Meanwhile Cass repeatedly dodges Deathstroke and actually beats him in their last fight. During the Bruce Wayne murderer arc Nightwing and Cassandra are reenacting the crime scene and Nightwing states he can go all out on Cassandra cause he knows he doesnt have to worry about hitting her. As far as shrugging off Batman's best attacks, even though he's landed shots on Cassandra he's never stopped her with strikes, and she doesn't have the benefit of Azrael's suit. We've also never seen Azrael dodge anyone like Cassandra dodges. And she does it against characters with better skill, and speed showings then Azrael.
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#99  Edited By vuviper
@Gambler: 

 The Worlds may be based off ours but I don't believe anybody agrees that comparing comicbook feats to real world capabilities is a viable way of displaying skill. Like I said, in the Real World people don't vanish in front of other people yet in comics its a typical feat that most, if not all, street level characters have done. And there for, not that impressive. The thing about Cass dodging bullets is that she is repeatedly illustrated as dodging bullets after they have been fired, and actually waiting on them. Just cause a character has vanished in front of another character in no way means they are as fast as Cass. Of course anyone can "speculate," but we have actual proof of Cassandra's speed. Thats like saying any character with some acrobatic feats is automatically as agile as Nightwing or Creeper. Azrael's been in enough comics to get an accurate assessment of his abilities and he's never demonstrated the speed Cass has. The closes he's come is dodging bullets. The thing is though the artists and writers make a clear point to illustrate the manner in which Cassandra does it and it sets her above the other bullet dodgers.

I didn't say vanishing makes someone faster than cassie, but the only way I can think of to compare running faster than a bullet and being able to vanish while being looked at is by using real world numbers, and like I said earlier vanishing in front of 1 person is many times less impressive than vanishing right before 2, because with one, you have time when they blink, about .1 second, to get out of the way.

Speculation. But since I dont put Azrael anywhere near Wonder Woman(dont think many other people would either) its a moot point if he's including her or not. He simply states no one is a better "fighter" then Cassandra is. I'm not sure why he wouldn't be including Deathstroke when he's talking about Nightwing originally. He's telling Cain to go help Nightwing and says he's not the fighter you are, no one is. You pointed out earlier that Nightwing has defeated Deathstroke. So if he's including Nightwing I dont see why he would be leaving Deathstroke out.

I would think he's only including human fighters, thats why he wouldn't include deathstroke. but is you disagree that's ok. 
 

 Yup. I still haven't seen any speed feats that separate Azrael.

do you accept that azrael is significantly faster than Batman. "two steps faster" at least? Because I Batman has been descrbied as training to the peak of human perfection, I don't think of anyone as having significant physical advantages over him besides Bane (in strength) and Cassandra (in speed). I think there are people that have slight advantages, like Nightwing and Catwoman in agility, but not enough to put them over a metahuman who is stated to be much faster.
 

 Except being outmaneuvered by Catwoman drops Azrael further down then being hit by Batman drops Cassandra down. In fact one could even say that Cain was under the influence of drugs at the time, or that Batman and Cain train together so often that its only reasonable that no matter how fast she is he would be able to block at least a couple strikes while landing some of his own. I'm not going to use that, just saying. The time I'm talking about happened in Catwoman #70 I believe. She easily outmaneuvers him even after he had a hold of her wrists.

I was just pointing out that that's not solid logic, because we are able to back exact opposite arguments using the same logic. Thing is azrael wasn't as powerful back then. *shrugs* (I feel like I say that too much)
 

 Batman's training with Cain was nothing like the training Cassandra received. She was the only "perfected" test subject at the time (this is after Bruce's training.) Batman's bodyreading is nowhere near, and has never been shown, to be on the level of Cassandra's. Ravager has bodyreading that is described as Procog and Cassandra was able to avoid taking any damage from her and actually slit her throat. In fact in the Batman vs Azrael fight Batman used the same move twice in a row. Someone who has mastered reading body language doesnt make silly mistakes like that. They're already two or more moves ahead of their opponent.

Great, if you don't think Batman's level of body reading isn't comparable that allows me to use Batman's ability to hit Cassie and Batman's ability to hit Shiva. Ravager doesn't have body reading by the way, she has pre cog, the deathstroke face's of evil was stupid and contradicted all of her appearance before and after
 

 Okay, first fight was with a nobody character, she didn't even realize she didn't have her abilities until she was already charging forward (she later beats this character still de-powered with one punch). Second time out against Batman we never see her do anything except try to dodge him which she cant. It wasn't even a fight as we see when she gets her abilities back, the whole exercise was a defensive one. Her last fight (which was an actual fight and not a sparing match) was against Lady Shiva. Azrael with no powers would have suffered the same fate against anyone of those opponents. And I'm pretty sure there are more low end showings of Azrael while being de-powered besides his spar with Nightwing.

I think it's rare to find showing of Azrael when he has no powers but still skills...But what I was saying isn't that it shows he's more skilled than her necessarily, but just to show that she's not Batman or Shiva level without her metahuman speed or her body reading. (because you often said she is skilled and fast enough to make it hard for him to hit her)
 

 Cain's last fight with Shiva she stomped her out without being touched. In Azrael's fight with Deathstroke he doesn't display any major advantages (acrobatics, strength, skill, or speed) and he actually only wins cause Deathstroke gets poisoned or tranqed. Meanwhile Cass repeatedly dodges Deathstroke and actually beats him in their last fight. During the Bruce Wayne murderer arc Nightwing and Cassandra are reenacting the crime scene and Nightwing states he can go all out on Cassandra cause he knows he doesnt have to worry about hitting her. As far as shrugging off Batman's best attacks, even though he's landed shots on Cassandra he's never stopped her with strikes, and she doesn't have the benefit of Azrael's suit. We've also never seen Azrael dodge anyone like Cassandra dodges. And she does it against characters with better skill, and speed showings then Azrael.

Azrael not using anything fancy in a particular fight  doesn't mean he can't do it, as he's displayed in other fights. we're arguing what the outcome would be if they were fighting to the best of their abilities, not if they fought how they are most often portrayed in comics. (Otherwise I would say Cassie wins as well) Also Batman landed hit's on the least armored spots, and yeah bats didn't take out cassie with one hit, but you don't actually think she would stay standing from a blow from a martial artist with at least 10 tons of strength. It's true we don't see Azrael dodging characters that dodge like Cassie, he mainly fights people with superstrength in his series, but I'm not sure what that proves. what I was saying, is Cassandra fights pretty evenly with the likes of Shiva and Batman, while Azrael easily beats Batman, leaving him badly beaten and coming out unharmed
 
I don't think the shiva fights happened quite the way you remembered
Batgirl beats Shiva
 
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Batgirl beats Shiva
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Batgirl vs Shiva
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Batgirl vs Batman


She's the best, but still not untouchable. And all he really needs is to touch her, either as a hit, or to do point blank angel's wrath, or
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#100  Edited By Psyker star

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