#1 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

Scenario! - The Jedi Temple

A bastion of hope, the Jedi Temple has stood for millennia. A symbol of the Jedi's dominance, and influence on Coruscant's skyline.

Objectives

Team A

- Protect the Jedi Temple from the invaders

Team B

- Assault and storm the Temple

But above all,

Eliminate the enemy at all costs.

Layout

Team A start the centre of the Temple, at the foot of the Spire. Team B start at public center (The round docking bay in the first picture)

Rules

- Eliminate the team.

- No permanent BFR

- You're allowed to make use of any of the Temple's defenses or structures

- Both Teams get 1 days worth of Prep. Team B get dossiers on their opponents after 6 hours, whereas Team A only get knowledge about who they're fighting 1 hour before the match, however, they are allowed free access to roam and familiarize themselves with the Temple during their Prep.

- The Prep allows you to make use of any of your resources, however I draw the line at inviting other people into the match. For Example. No Minions/Armies/LMDs however, if you had Madrox I'd allow duplicates naturally.

- No Time Manipulation or Reality Warping

Vs

@Backflip

#2 Edited by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: Cool you set our battle up! Do you want to start or should I? And there is one thing. Tomorrow I have lessons all day plus tennis so when I get back tomorrow night I either will only make a couple of posts or none at all if I don't feel I can give you the debate you deserve. I'm deeply sorry about that inconvenience but I assure you there will be no others.

Oh and do you want to be Team A or Team B?

#3 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: I think I'd prefer to start and yeah Team B would be preferable for moi :P

Also don't worry, I've only got lessons first thing tomorrow morning so I can probably reply to whatever you post tonight then, however, I too am busy tomorrow night cause I've got a poker night round my house anyway so yeah, it's no inconvience in the slightest :P Just reply whenever you have the chance, but yes, we don't expect any second measures, I expect your A game Lvenger :P

#4 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: I appreciate your flexibility on the matter. And worry not you shall have my A game in this debate! On that I promise. This is my first outing in a proper one on one debate and I'd like to give it my all at least to see how I measure up.

#5 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: OK then I'm Team A. Best start looking at some defensive strategies for this debate

#6 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18888 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks like an interesting battle.Cant wait to see it unfold.

#7 Edited by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: I know you wanted to start but I have a post finished now and since I'm Team A, the defending team, it sort of makes a bit more sense if I present the defense first and then you present how you'd attack my team at the temple. Plus this is the only chance I'll have to post tonight as I might be going to sleep soon:

Scenario! - The Jedi Temple

Objectives

A bastion of hope, the Jedi Temple has stood for millennia. A symbol of the Jedi's dominance, and influence on Coruscant's skyline.

Team A

- Protect the Jedi Temple from the invaders

Layout

Rules

Team A start the centre of the Temple, at the foot of the Spire.

- Eliminate the team.

- No permanent BFR

- You're allowed to make use of any of the Temple's defenses or structures

- Both Teams get 1 days worth of Prep. Team B get dossiers on their opponents after 6 hours, whereas Team A only get knowledge about who they're fighting 1 hour before the match, however, they are allowed free access to roam and familiarize themselves with the Temple during their Prep.

- The Prep allows you to make use of any of your resources, however I draw the line at inviting other people into the match. For Example. No Minions/Armies/LMDs however, if you had Madrox I'd allow duplicates naturally.

- No Time Manipulation or Reality Warping

Although I don’t have the best strategists and prep masters on my team, Wonder Woman takes charge of the day’s worth of prep time. She was granted great wisdom, intelligence and a keen aptitude for military strategy by Athena, the goddess of wisdom and war. So she’s the best candidate for preparing the team for the conflict to come with tasks such as placing the droids Superman will create around the temple as well as the Superman robots and ordering Firstorm where the best place to create additional weaponry is. Also, Wonder Woman brings an armoury of her weapons to the Temple. This includes her shield, sword used in For Tomorrow, axe and armour used in the Imperiex War as well.

Additionally, Superman uses this time go to the Fortress of Solitude and bring back more tech. This includes his entire army of Superman Robots, the Kryptonian Warsuit which he'll program to auto pilot and the arsenal of weapons stored in the fortress of solitude that could be set up around the Jedi Temple in order to give it more firepower. As well as these, Superman brings some sunstone crystals from the Fortress to enhance the shielding of the Jedi Temple. Sunstone crystals are well known for their regenerative properties and if your team strikes the temple now, the Sunstone crystals will regenerate from the damage, making it all the more protective.

Then Superman deconstructs the training droids used on the younglings and rebuild them, enhancing their firepower and then sets them off patrolling the temple. Superman could make several more afterwards after memorising the design of the droids. This is an easily accomplishable feat given that for instance, in Superman 653, he quickly manages to analyse a Kryptonian battle ship and find its weak spot. And there are many other instances of Superman using his total recall ability as well as demonstrating his genius level intellect. These two abilities would let him accomplish this feat no problem. Superman then gives Hal the Legion flight ring, tells him how to use it and then goes and sun dips for the remaining time left massively boosting my power.

Hal uses his legion flight ring to go to the 31st Century and asks Brainiac 5 for 4 specially made Legion flight rings. Remember the rings used in the Lightning Saga arc in the Justice League/Justice Society crossover? The ones that Brainiac 5 gave an impenetrable forcefield that Batman and Mr Terrific couldn't bring down with prep and not even Superman could break through? Yep now my team has 4 of those rings for added protection. For his last act in the future, Hal Jordan visits Sodam Yat and convinces him to lend an extra 9 rings for Hal to borrow so he can become as powerful as he was in Emerald Twilight. Only with more control and not being mad and evil and stuff

Susan Richards goes to the Baxter Building to pick up some tech and prep advice from Reed Richards, one of the ultimate prep masters in comic book history. She gets Reed to tell her what the chemical symbol of adamantium is so that she can tell Firestorm for later. Also, she gets the cosmic control rod from Johnny which allows her the ability to access vast amounts of cosmic energy from the rod. This makes Sue even more dangerous in conjunction with her forcefield powers.

During the prep time, Firestorm reinforces the outside of the Jedi Temple to adamantium having been told its chemical symbol by Susan Richards who in turn was told it by Reed earlier on. Not much to keep your team out but it beats the stone walls that the temple has prior to this. Also, Firestorm can create some weaponry around the Jedi Temple to keep your team at bay. Here he is creating some stone missiles out of thin air.

I propose he can do the same for other weaponry in the Jedi Temple. Like laser cannons or something of that ilk. He’s created a plethora of objects and weapons out of thin air before so this shouldn’t be out of Ronnie’s reach. And to top that off Firestorm is well known for being able to phase through objects intagibly as well as making other objects intangible. This means Ronnie can alter the density of the floors of the Jedi temple and as such, Genocide and Lobo (who can’t fly) sink into the floor helpless to stop themselves from doing so when they enter the temple.

That does it for individual prep. I considered having Invisible Woman conjure a giant forcefield to delay your team but that might tax her too soon and I want her in the fight later. I don’t need a member down before the fight starts. As for Hercules, he’s not that useful for prep. His place is down to being a high level tank in the main fight against your team.

An hour before the fight, once they get info on who they’re fighting, Hal uses the legion flight ring to go to the future and ask Brainiac 5 to give him some dossiers on Genocide, Starbreaker, Lobo and Kyle Rayner for the team to study. My team spends the last hour analysing who they’re taking on and discuss strategies for the upcoming fight. Superman will go for Kal Kent, Hal will go for Kyle, Firestorm will take on Starbreaker, Invisible Woman will delay Cyclops, Wonder Woman goes for Genocide and Hercules will head for Lobo. I'll post indivudal strategies for how each of my team will fight their opponent later. Also in the last hour, Hal uses the ring to create TP shielding for the team against Kal Kent as he does here

Plus Firestorm creates lamps that emit red sun radiation in the Jedi Council room, the council of first knowledge room, the council of reconciliation and the reassignment council room. This is for Kal Kent. He hasn't shown an ability to overcome red sun radiation so throwing him in here will remove his Kryptonian abilities allowing Superman to switch places with another team member in order to KO Kal Kent. Again, Ronnie can accomplish this seeing his ability to create many things out of thin air plus the fact Amazo used Firestorm's powers to emit red sun radiation in order defeat Superman.

Another thing that you yourself admitted is that my team has the advantage of most of the members being familiar with working together. 4 of my members have all served in the Justice League meaning they are familiar with each other and working together as a team. Sue's also used to teamwork so she can fit in well. As for Hercules, he's been on the Avengers and he should behave well enough in this team.

I think this is all the prep I can think of. Here's my first post. I eagerly await your reply Backflip even though I know you're gonna deconstruct my team like hell!

#8 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 stomps. Just my input.

#9 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

Team 2 stomps. Just my input.

It's about the skill of the debaters not the combatants. However Backflip does have a scarily good team. Starbreaker's a mature Sun Eater and has plenty of awesome feats to boot, Kal Kent is a much better version of the original Superman and Cyclops w/PF should make things interesting.

#10 Posted by beatboks1 (7632 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#11 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@jeanroygrant said:

Team 2 stomps. Just my input.

It's about the skill of the debaters not the combatants. However Backflip does have a scarily good team. Starbreaker's a mature Sun Eater and has plenty of awesome feats to boot, Kal Kent is a much better version of the original Superman and Cyclops w/PF should make things interesting.

I see.

#12 Edited by beatboks1 (7632 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: Your up

Bump

#13 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

So I've been a little absent, just been a hectic last few days, haven't stopped really :P But I'm here, and you'd better be ready for me :P

#14 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: Ah you're back? Excellent. I have thought of some more things I can do with prep time so excuse me if I edit my post a bit more. I'm about to make my initial post a whole lot better :P

#15 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Backflip: Ah you're back? Excellent. I have thought of some more things I can do with prep time so excuse me if I edit my post a bit more. I'm about to make my initial post a whole lot better :P

Go ahead, the better your strategy, the more fun I'll have dismantling it :P

#16 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

It won't let me post my strategy for some reason

#17 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: What? Why? Hang on, copy it, refresh the page then paste.

#18 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (4977 posts) - - Show Bio

while we are all eagerly awaiting this debate to move forward.would you gentlemen care to view the one myself, consolemaster, and esquire are conducting????

#19 Edited by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is my strategy for Prep and the opening of a battle, but for some reason I can't post....

PREP TIME

I'd say my team is made up of better Tacticians, Cyclops and Kal Kent are some of the best leaders in their respective universes. That's just for props though. Anyway, here is what they're all going to do in their Prep Time.

Kyle Rayner will visit Sayd, and request back his Indigo, Red and Blue Lantern Rings now that he has demonstrated he has mastered the respective part of the emotional spectrum which will allow him to have a greater degree of Power than he has typically. Once he's claimed his Power Rings, and now wielding Four, he shall recreate the Faux Corp that he made in JLA: Circle of Fire. Now these were all constructs, however they were also alive, living, possessing of their own personality and equally as strong as your standard lantern.

Kyle Explaining how he created his Faux Corp and Power Girl conversing with Emerald Knight, Kyle's Daxamite Construct

As shown here, he has created 5 independent constructs that are Lanterns. In particular, Emerald Knight is a Daxamite, Ali Rayner West is a Speedster. Furthermore, once they had been created, he'd use his unique ability to create more rings for each member of his Faux GLC, and spend the final few hours training with them to ensure they are all ready and prepared.

Next, Lobo will proceed to clone himself out of his blood, and also Lobo Prime will retrieve his Bike and Red Lantern Ring

With a small army now developed from Lobo's dupes, and Kyle's Faux GLC, my team will be all but ready.

During the 24 Hours, Kal Kent will have been sundipping.

Starbreaker will be teleported by Kyle Rayner to a galaxy of immense suffering, where he shall feed entirely on the negative emotions there.

Cyclops will call the team back together 1 hours before the battle, to discuss tactics and plan accordingly alongside the dossiers that they'd all recieved. In short, Starbreaker will be amped by negative emotion, Kyle Rayner will have the Rings of Rage, Indigo and Hope alongside having created his Faux GLC. Lobo will have retrieved his Rage Ring and assembled his army of clones. Genocide and Cyclops will have studied the other team intently.

Let the Match begin

Upon entering the scene, Kal Kent and his 17 senses will notice that the composition of the Temple and the Force Fields have all been amped and altered. Acknowledging this, Kyle Rayner will step up and do the one thing he has reserved for a time when he doesn't care about the consequence, or you don't need to adjust to them, such as split an atom within the Temple because his team knows that the Adamantium will protect them.

Split an Atom, not a lot of energy needed.

The ensuing blast will disrupt whatever plan you've concocted, spliting up your team and probably damaging a few of them. With the few moments peace I've gained with that explosion, Kyle will proceed to teleport Genocide and the Lobo Clones into the Temple with his use of the Compassion Ring.

Kyle Teleporting with the power of Compassion

The Faux GLC will proceed to contain the Red Sun Lamps that sit atop each of the Towers. Thus preventing you from depowering Kal Kent.

Cyclops, Kal Kent and Starbreaker now get ready to join the assault.......

With the anarchy within the Temple ensuing, and the Lobo clones assaulting everything within range, your team will be put out and unable to readjust themselves properly before they're smashed upon by my team. Genocide and Kyle Rayner will be more than capable of providing a real beating for the start of the fight. Genocide will immediately teleport behind Wonder Woman and catch her off guard, and as shown previously, she's more than capable of taking down Wonder Woman single handily

Now you'll argue that Wonder Woman has prepped for this, but it doesn't matter, Genocide has the Lasso and also the only time that Wonder Woman took her down, she had immense help from her sidekicks and other allies, she's never managed to contend with Genocide one on one.

Kyle Rayner will make use of all 4 of his rings to engage Hal Jordan. Hope will boost him to 200% of his base line power, Rage will make him bloodlusted and looking for the kill and Compassion will provide an incredible amount of diversity. On top of that. Kyle Rayner is the strongest master of Willpower the universe has ever seen, so even though Hal Jordan may possess more rings, Kyle is easily his equal if not better.

Meanwhile, Starbreaker shall approach the Forcefield. They're made up of energy, and unluckily for your team, Energy is what Starbreaker lives for. He'd quite simply absorb them rapidly. He's demonstrated that he can absorb the star Vega before, which is much larger than our own, so therefore a mere Forcefield shall be no problem.

The Team shall the enter the battle to support the Lobo Clones, Kyle, Genocide and the Faux GLC who will have now finished their task of dismantling the Red Sun Lamps. I understand you'll have your Kryptonian robots for back up, but ultimately that's not going to help you as each and every one of Lobo's clones is equal to Lobo Prime himself and he can go toe to toe with Superman.

Starbreaker's will take on the energy combatants of your team, thus taking on Green Lantern (Relieving Kyle Rayner to help others) and also taking on Firestorm and Superman at the same time. Starbreaker has demonstrated the ability to manipulate Lantern Constructs, and therefore will be able to walk all over Hal Jordan, but more impressively, and importantly, he'll get rid of the Telepathic Helmet constructs that you equipped your team with.

So in one fell swoop Starbreaker shall remove the Lantern Constructs (As shown in the above Scan), decimate Superman with a Red Sun blast and finally, one shot Firestorm because the guy shouldn't interrupt a God.

Yes I'm aware this is a different Firestorm, but the matter is still very much the same.

Time to Finish this!

So within minutes, this is the state of play.

Superman, and Firestorm will have been taken out.

Hal Jordan's Telepathic Helmets will have been destroyed

Your Red Lamps are destroyed by my Faux GLC

Genocide is in the process of smashing up Wonder Woman

The Lobo clones are battling your Superman Robot Army

Starbreaker will continue to pound on Hal Jordan

Leaving you With Invisible Woman and Hercules not being dealt with.

Kyle Rayner and the Faux GLC will reengage Hal Jordan alongside Starbreaker, looking to bring him down as quickly as possible. Again, the Hope Ring will boost all of my GLC to 200%, allowing them to really give the smashing to Hal Jordan.

Cyclops and Kal Kent will utilize their Telepathy to bring down Hercules with a mere thought. This is not up for debate, Cyclops has held of Xavier whilst having a telepathic dinner with Emma and also fighting Dr. Strange, Hawkeye, Thor, Thing etc With Hercules taken down very quickly, it'll leave Kal Kent, Cyclops and Lobo to pound on Invisible Woman. Now I understand she's got strong forcefields, but she's not fast enough for Kal Kent, She cannot put down Lobo who also has a Lantern ring and finally, Cyclops wooped Thor, and Invisible Woman could barely contend with the far weaker Ragnorak.

Case Closed.

#20 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: I take it you'll add pictures later? And this is impressive prep. I have to go to sleep now but I'll be sure to reply to your full attack plan tomorrow. Can't wait for that!

#21 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Backflip: I take it you'll add pictures later? And this is impressive prep. I have to go to sleep now but I'll be sure to reply to your full attack plan tomorrow. Can't wait for that!

Righteo, added the pictures, now just to finish my argument :P

#22 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: There you go, I can't wait for your counter, I hope it's going to be a good'un :P

#23 Edited by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

Response is up! Apologies for the lateness of it but I got back later than expected due to flooding on the roads. But here's my reply!

@Backflip said:

The ensuing blast will disrupt whatever plan you've concocted, spliting up your team and probably damaging a few of them.

I'm afraid that strategy won't harm my team. 4 of them are wearing Legion flight rings which automatically shield them from any harm.I can't find the scan but in Justice League of America 10, the final issue of the Lightning Saga, Starman's ring automatically shields him from a surprise attack by Mr Terrific. Thus, this shows the Legion Flight rings have an automatic trigger that shields their wearers from attack. As Brainiac 5 designed and field tested them, they're likely to withstand the firepower of the 31st Century, let alone a 21st Century atomic blast. And even if the blast does crack the shield a little, Brainy designed the ring to automatically repair the shield.

As for Hal, he's shielded himself from a nuclear blast with one ring. With 10 rings, he won't even get hot under the collar. As such, my team won't be hurt, disorientated, damaged or split up at all by Kyle's attack and will be ready for your team's attack. Superman immediately engages Kal Kent in battle and holds him till back up arrives.

@Backflip said:

The ensuing blast will disrupt whatever plan you've concocted, spliting up your team and probably damaging a few of them. With the few moments peace I've gained with that explosion, Kyle will proceed to teleport Genocide and the Lobo Clones into the Temple with his use of the Compassion Ring.

An unwise strategy as you seem to have forgotten one of the earliest parts of my prep, namely that Ronnie has altered the density of the floor of the Jedi Temple. When your team teleports in, all but Lobo Prime who's on his bike will sink to the floor and be sitting ducks for the Fortress weaponry, Jedi training droids with lethal firepower and Superman Robots to blast at and attack. As for Lobo Prime Hercules leaps onto Lobo's bike and engages him in combat. Hercules might not be able to beat Lobo but he can delay him, especially with the backup in the prep.

@Backflip said:

The Faux GLC will proceed to contain the Red Sun Lamps that sit atop each of the Towers. Thus preventing you from depowering Kal Kent.

If they can get past the sunstone shielding, then the adamantium outer walls and then overcome the Fortress weapons, the Superman Robots and the Jedi Training Droids guarding the Red Sun Lamps then I'll grant you this. But I'll address another strategy I have for Kal Kent later.

@Backflip said:

With the anarchy within the Temple ensuing, and the Lobo clones assaulting everything within range, your team will be put out and unable to readjust themselves properly before they're smashed upon by my team. Genocide and Kyle Rayner will be more than capable of providing a real beating for the start of the fight. Genocide will immediately teleport behind Wonder Woman and catch her off guard, and as shown previously, she's more than capable of taking down Wonder Woman single handily

Now you'll argue that Wonder Woman has prepped for this, but it doesn't matter, Genocide has the Lasso and also the only time that Wonder Woman took her down, she had immense help from her sidekicks and other allies, she's never managed to contend with Genocide one on one.

As I stated earlier, Genocide will be stuck in the floor barely, if able at all to move. Since Genocide is her target, Wonder Woman will mercilessly blitz her with sword and axe in hand giving no quarter. Genocide will be cut apart easily. One down. And in case you've forgotten, Wonder Woman defeated Genocide in their final encounter single handedly too. No help, just her fighting seriously and brutally. Here's the proof:

Apologies the scans are out of order and I can't get them in order but you get my point. Diana beat Genocide on her own whilst Genocide was a moving target. Standing still and with Diana prepped for the encounter, she'll blitz Genocide to death in a lethal fashion and then fly off to help Superman take on Kal Kent making it a fairer fight.

@Backflip said:

Kyle Rayner will make use of all 4 of his rings to engage Hal Jordan. Hope will boost him to 200% of his base line power, Rage will make him bloodlusted and looking for the kill and Compassion will provide an incredible amount of diversity. On top of that. Kyle Rayner is the strongest master of Willpower the universe has ever seen, so even though Hal Jordan may possess more rings, Kyle is easily his equal if not better.

Impressive. But Hal has the edge in terms of raw power I'm afraid. 10 Green Lantern rings to 4 rings from a different spectrum. Kyle has more variety but Hal has far more raw power now and willpower to boot. During Emerald Twilight, he became immensely powerful after defeating many members of the GLC and taking their rings for more power. Now that he has 10 rings to conduct his immense willpower through, Hal will be a force to reckon with against Kyle. Support for this comes from Hal's encounter with Nero who had captured Kyle and was feeding off Kyle's Ion power in the fight against Hal. And Hal still KOed him via a massive blast of willpower

Again apologies scans aren't in order. Well the first scan is at the end and then continue in the order given. As for your Faux GLC corps, Hal has a response to that too. Again I can't find the scan but I'll cite the reference. In the last volume of Green Lantern, issue 55, Hal creates a plethora of military constructs with just one ring along with Sinestro, Atrocitus and Carl to intimidate Lobo. Now imagine that but with 10 rings. Your faux corps will be overwhelmed by the sheer number of Hal's constructs or failing that, the sheer willpower Hal now possesses with 10 rings that allowed him to plow his way through many members of the GLC.

@Backflip said:

Meanwhile, Starbreaker shall approach the Forcefield. They're made up of energy, and unluckily for your team, Energy is what Starbreaker lives for. He'd quite simply absorb them rapidly. He's demonstrated that he can absorb the star Vega before, which is much larger than our own, so therefore a mere Forcefield shall be no problem.

This is a misinterpretation. The Jedi Temple doesn't have any forcefields. It's protected by the Kryptonian sunstone enhancements which regenerate from any damage received and the adamantium walls. If you refer to the forcefields emitted by the Legion flight rings, then Starbreaker's going to have a lot to contend with fortress weapons firing at him and Firestorm attacking him as Starbreaker is Firestorm's target.

@Backflip said:

The Team shall the enter the battle to support the Lobo Clones, Kyle, Genocide and the Faux GLC who will have now finished their task of dismantling the Red Sun Lamps. I understand you'll have your Kryptonian robots for back up, but ultimately that's not going to help you as each and every one of Lobo's clones is equal to Lobo Prime himself and he can go toe to toe with Superman.

Lobo clones are being dealt with via fortress weaponry and Genocide is down. As for Lobo Prime, Hercules is enagaging him with support from the temple's weaponry, Superman robots and Jedi droids.

@Backflip said:

Starbreaker's will take on the energy combatants of your team, thus taking on Green Lantern (Relieving Kyle Rayner to help others) and also taking on Firestorm and Superman at the same time. Starbreaker has demonstrated the ability to manipulate Lantern Constructs, and therefore will be able to walk all over Hal Jordan, but more impressively, and importantly, he'll get rid of the Telepathic Helmet constructs that you equipped your team with.

So in one fell swoop Starbreaker shall remove the Lantern Constructs (As shown in the above Scan), decimate Superman with a Red Sun blast and finally, one shot Firestorm because the guy shouldn't interrupt a God.

Yes I'm aware this is a different Firestorm, but the matter is still very much the same.

Starbreaker won't be taking on the energy combatants nor disrupting Hal's constructs as he will be engaged by Firestorm. Now although Firestorm can't hurt Starbreaker himself, he has another trick up his sleeve. Energy absorption is a notable trick of Firestorm's and one of Starbreaker's weaknesses is being drained of his energy. This is what Firestorm will do. He absorbs any attack Starbreaker throws at him, thus meaning that Starbreaker will be wasting his attacks on Firestorm. Failing absorbing the attacks, Firestorm can redirect them back at him.

With this tactic in play Starbreaker will waste his energy to the point that he can be KOed easily. Ronnie won't engage him in the silly way Jason did. He'll play it smart thanks to the prep time, will know what to do. That's my biggest worry taken care of.

Now whilst all this is going on, Sue will be delaying Cyclops. As for what you've said here

Cyclops wooped Thor, and Invisible Woman could barely contend with the far weaker Ragnorak.

Case Closed.

I think you're underplaying Invisible Woman here. She's held out against Doom's attacks when he had the power of a watcher

And her powers were the only thing capable of cracking open and destroying a Celestial armour.

Plus Sue has the Legion flight ring forcefield which will protect her from Cyclops' attacks more effectively than her own forcefields as well as the Cosmic Control Rod. Sue's tactics will be to delay Cyclops until help arrives. This can be done via an inventive use of her powers. Here she is constricting Wolverine's lungs then blinding him when he invades the Baxter Building

With Cyclops blinded and disorientated Sue will unleash a blast of the CCR as well as her own powers. If Scarlet Witch's finite hex powers were capable of hurting Cyclops, imagine what the CCR, an object containing the ability to fire cosmic energy that rearranges molecular structure combined with Sue's powers can do to Cyclops. With Sue keeping that assault up, Cyclops won't be able to mount a full attack against her and may take some damage.

Final Points

So Genocide has been blitzed to death by WW

Your army of Lobo clones is fodder for the Fortress weaponry

Your Faux Corps is destroyed

Kyle and Starbreaker are down

With Kal Kent engaged with Superman and WW, Firestorm will swoop in and start firing red sun radiation blasts draining Kal of his yellow solar energy allowing him to be KOed by Superman and WW

Cyclops will then have to contend with Hal once he arrives from defeating Kyle and then Superman, WW and Firestorm once they defeat Kal Kent. He gets overpowered.

Although Lobo may have finished off Hercules inside the temple, he's no match for the 5 remaining members of my team.

Case reopened and closed.

#24 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Fantastic rebuttal, but it's got it's flaws. Allow me to exploit them.......

#25 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

If they can get past the sunstone shielding, then the adamantium outer walls and then overcome the Fortress weapons, the Superman Robots and the Jedi Training Droids guarding the Red Sun Lamps then I'll grant you this. But I'll address another strategy I have for Kal Kent later.

Considering Kyle's Teleportation abilities, this shouldn't be too difficult to get past. Furthermore, We're dealing with 5 Green Lanterns vs your Droids that are defending the Lamps. One of them is a Speedster, One is a Daxamite, One is a Manhunter and the other two are human, but regardless, they should have absolutely no trouble overcoming whatever you've got defending the Lamps.

As I stated earlier, Genocide will be stuck in the floor barely, if able at all to move. Since Genocide is her target, Wonder Woman will mercilessly blitz her with sword and axe in hand giving no quarter. Genocide will be cut apart easily. One down. And in case you've forgotten, Wonder Woman defeated Genocide in their final encounter single handedly too. No help, just her fighting seriously and brutally. Here's the proof:
Apologies the scans are out of order and I can't get them in order but you get my point. Diana beat Genocide on her own whilst Genocide was a moving target. Standing still and with Diana prepped for the encounter, she'll blitz Genocide to death in a lethal fashion and then fly off to help Superman take on Kal Kent making it a fairer fight.

Don't worry about the order of the scans, I can make sense of it :P

Genocide can teleport into the air, just like she did to trash Firestorm, John Stewart, Vixen and Black Canary all at the same time, so she'll easily be able to avoid the sinking ground manuever that you're so reliant on.

Actually if you look at the scans, Diana admitted that she could not beat Genocide one on one. She didn't have the physicality to beat Genocide. The only way she got around her is due to the fact she could drown her, but that means nothing considering that you've trapped yourself in a Prison with Genocide, so for that reason, Wonder Woman is going to lose.

Impressive. But Hal has the edge in terms of raw power I'm afraid. 10 Green Lantern rings to 4 rings from a different spectrum. Kyle has more variety but Hal has far more raw power now and willpower to boot. During Emerald Twilight, he became immensely powerful after defeating many members of the GLC and taking their rings for more power. Now that he has 10 rings to conduct his immense willpower through, Hal will be a force to reckon with against Kyle. Support for this comes from Hal's encounter with Nero who had captured Kyle and was feeding off Kyle's Ion power in the fight against Hal. And Hal still KOed him via a massive blast of willpower






Again apologies scans aren't in order. Well the first scan is at the end and then continue in the order given. As for your Faux GLC corps, Hal has a response to that too. Again I can't find the scan but I'll cite the reference. In the last volume of Green Lantern, issue 55, Hal creates a plethora of military constructs with just one ring along with Sinestro, Atrocitus and Carl to intimidate Lobo. Now imagine that but with 10 rings. Your faux corps will be overwhelmed by the sheer number of Hal's constructs or failing that, the sheer willpower Hal now possesses with 10 rings that allowed him to plow his way through many members of the GLC.

Yeah, no. Kyle is amped at 200%, which'll actually make it play out as 10 Green Lantern Rings vs The equivalent of 8 Rings from a different Spectrum. The power different is too minute to overcome the sheer range of variety that Kyle is going to be stacking. Furthermore, Kyle's top end feats with a Single ring dwarf ANYTHING that Hal Jordan has ever done. We're looking at Kyle's Imperiex Prime feat and of course, the granddaddy of Constructs, Heaven's Ladder.

Moreover, you're not really understanding the nature of my Faux GLC. To call them constructs is... the easiest way to describe them. In reality, they are literally, living, breathing Lanterns that have all the genetic properties and free will capabilities of a Standard being. This was most prevelent when Firestorm attempted to transmute the Manhunter Green Lantern Corp member and found out.. he couldn't.

Hal Jordan has never been able to create life from his Ring, yet Kyle can. Furthermore, my GLC have extra rings, courtesy of Kyle.

Starbreaker won't be taking on the energy combatants nor disrupting Hal's constructs as he will be engaged by Firestorm. Now although Firestorm can't hurt Starbreaker himself, he has another trick up his sleeve. Energy absorption is a notable trick of Firestorm's and one of Starbreaker's weaknesses is being drained of his energy. This is what Firestorm will do. He absorbs any attack Starbreaker throws at him, thus meaning that Starbreaker will be wasting his attacks on Firestorm. Failing absorbing the attacks, Firestorm can redirect them back at him.


With this tactic in play Starbreaker will waste his energy to the point that he can be KOed easily. Ronnie won't engage him in the silly way Jason did. He'll play it smart thanks to the prep time, will know what to do. That's my biggest worry taken care of.

Again, No. Firestorm doesn't have a hope in hell against Starbreaker. There is literally nothing he can do to hurt Starbreaker, but as shown from the previous scan, Starbreaker has the stats to compete with the Speed of the Flash and punch around Superman like nobodies business. Starbreaker is a team beater by nature, he will easily be able to multitask taking down Firestorm and the Lantern Constructs of Hal Jordan. Furthermore, he himself can simply just absorb energy from his surroundings. Just as he has down with Dr. Light, Dr. Light II, Superman, Green Lantern and a plethora of other heroes in the past.

Once again, you have no counter to Starbreaker and therefore you cannot win.

I think you're underplaying Invisible Woman here. She's held out against Doom's attacks when he had the power of a watcher



And her powers were the only thing capable of cracking open and destroying a Celestial armour.

Plus Sue has the Legion flight ring forcefield which will protect her from Cyclops' attacks more effectively than her own forcefields as well as the Cosmic Control Rod. Sue's tactics will be to delay Cyclops until help arrives. This can be done via an inventive use of her powers. Here she is constricting Wolverine's lungs then blinding him when he invades the Baxter Building

With Cyclops blinded and disorientated Sue will unleash a blast of the CCR as well as her own powers. If Scarlet Witch's finite hex powers were capable of hurting Cyclops, imagine what the CCR, an object containing the ability to fire cosmic energy that rearranges molecular structure combined with Sue's powers can do to Cyclops. With Sue keeping that assault up, Cyclops won't be able to mount a full attack against her and may take some damage.

I'm not underplaying her, you're just overplaying her. Phoenix Cyclops was trashing the combined might of the Avengers and the X-Men singlehandedly. Including Thor, Hulk, Red Hulk, Thing, Storm, Iceman etc.

In addition, the reason that Invisible Woman can hurt a Celestial, is because her powers are derived from Hyperspace, which acts like Kryptonite to the Celestials, it is not because of her immense power, but merely a weakness on their behalf that allows her to deal some damage.

The Hex Powers again, seem to act like Kryptonite against the Phoenix 5, because it was not Magic that unravelled them, and no one else who was infinitely more powerful managed to lay the hurt on them, so that argument that the CCR would be more effective is null and void due to it's baseless assertions.

Final Points

Genocide has still beaten WW

Kyle has still kept up with Hal Jordan

Starbreaker has still trashed Superman, Firestorm and Hal Jordan

Cyclops has still given Invisible Woman a good spanking.

My Faux GLC have destroyed the Lamps and battered their way through your defences

#26 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: Damn this is an impressive response. Give me some time and I'll have my counter argument ready by tomorrow. Been busy the past few days due to mock exams and other stuff.

#27 Edited by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip said:

Don't worry about the order of the scans, I can make sense of it :P

Genocide can teleport into the air, just like she did to trash Firestorm, John Stewart, Vixen and Black Canary all at the same time, so she'll easily be able to avoid the sinking ground manuever that you're so reliant on.

Actually if you look at the scans, Diana admitted that she could not beat Genocide one on one. She didn't have the physicality to beat Genocide. The only way she got around her is due to the fact she could drown her, but that means nothing considering that you've trapped yourself in a Prison with Genocide, so for that reason, Wonder Woman is going to lose.

Damn I did not know she could teleport. However she's never shown the ability to fly. If you look at the scans you've posted, she simply bear hugged Stewart in the air. She didn't fly of her own volition and does not possess the ability to do so. Thus whilst she's falling to the Earth, Wonder Woman (who can fly) takes to the air and mercilessly tears Genocide up with sword and axe in hand. It doesn't matter if Wonder Woman can't take Genocide one on one in a fair encounter. She can still tear her apart in the air. Superman utilised a similar tactic in fighting Doomsday (damaging him in mid air) so as long as Diana flies up to Genocide quickly, she can use her weapons to slice Genocide into pieces. Genocide's speed and reaction feats are not much to speak of compared to Diana's vastly superior feats plus it's not as if Diana won't be willing to use lethal force on Genocide. Thus Diana can still slice Genocide apart before she reaches the ground.

@Backflip said:

Yeah, no. Kyle is amped at 200%, which'll actually make it play out as 10 Green Lantern Rings vs The equivalent of 8 Rings from a different Spectrum. The power different is too minute to overcome the sheer range of variety that Kyle is going to be stacking. Furthermore, Kyle's top end feats with a Single ring dwarf ANYTHING that Hal Jordan has ever done. We're looking at Kyle's Imperiex Prime feat and of course, the granddaddy of Constructs, Heaven's Ladder.

Moreover, you're not really understanding the nature of my Faux GLC. To call them constructs is... the easiest way to describe them. In reality, they are literally, living, breathing Lanterns that have all the genetic properties and free will capabilities of a Standard being. This was most prevelent when Firestorm attempted to transmute the Manhunter Green Lantern Corp member and found out.. he couldn't.

Hal Jordan has never been able to create life from his Ring, yet Kyle can. Furthermore, my GLC have extra rings, courtesy of Kyle.

True Kyle has made some very big constructs. But you seem to be overlooking the feats I posted. Hal overpowered an amped Nero, who's given Kyle plenty of trouble in the past and in the fight in question was also drawing upon Kyle's Ion energies to empower him. The fact Hal gathered enough willpower to fire a blast capable of KOing a powered up Nero is a further indication of the depths of Hal's willpower. With 10 rings to channel that through, Hal should be able to overpower Kyle just as he overpowered several members of the Green Lantern Corps during Emerald Twilight. It wouldn't be easy but it could be done. Plus Hal has one feat Kyle has never shown to be able to do. I don't have time to find the feat but CitizenBane can verify the validity of the feat I'm about to mention. In one showing, Hal uses his ring to slow time down to a microsecond around him and other worthy candidates for the ring of Sector 2814. The only people not affected are Deadman who's dead so the stopping time thing doesn't work on him and Superman who possesses microsecond reaction times and is able to communicate with Hal whilst he slows down time. No one else, not even Guy a fellow lantern can do this. This indicates that Kyle would have no defense if Hal used this tactic and then summoned enough willpower to blast Kyle away and then he could concentrate on defeating your faux lantern corps with tactics he had thought of for the Justice League.

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/1f32a478.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/db444e7b.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/0c899a70.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/fc994039.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/e311da70.jpg

Sorry I can't post the full scans but I'm running out of time and I want to reply to as much of your post as possible. Hal's thought of tactics to take down Superman and the Flash so a faux Lantern Corps could allow Hal to use similar tactics to take this team of Lanterns down. And Firestorm will be dealing with Starbreaker so he won't be engaging the Faux GLC. If I'd chosen Jason though, your point would be moot though...

@Backflip said:

Again, No. Firestorm doesn't have a hope in hell against Starbreaker. There is literally nothing he can do to hurt Starbreaker, but as shown from the previous scan, Starbreaker has the stats to compete with the Speed of the Flash and punch around Superman like nobodies business. Starbreaker is a team beater by nature, he will easily be able to multitask taking down Firestorm and the Lantern Constructs of Hal Jordan. Furthermore, he himself can simply just absorb energy from his surroundings. Just as he has down with Dr. Light, Dr. Light II, Superman, Green Lantern and a plethora of other heroes in the past.

Once again, you have no counter to Starbreaker and therefore you cannot win.

I'm afraid I still have some points to make here. If Firestorm is busy draining Starbreaker or redirecting his attacks, Starbreaker is gonna be unable to take down the Lantern Constructs Hal has given my team to protect them from TP. Starbreaker will be losing power the more he attacks Firestorm and Firestorm will be capable of distracting him. Despite your prior scan of Starbreaker shrugging off Firestorm's blast, Firestorm has a lot more impressive feats up his sleeve. Here Ronnie turns the Anti Monitor's face helmet to hydrogen and throws a giant match at it. The resultant blast actually manages to destroy the Anti Monitor's helmet, an impressive feat not accomplished by many

I think with an arsenal of these kinds of attacks at his disposal, the team buster Starbreaker will at least be occupied if a universal threat level being such as the Anti Monitor can be distracted by Firestorm's attacks.

@Backflip said:

I'm not underplaying her, you're just overplaying her. Phoenix Cyclops was trashing the combined might of the Avengers and the X-Men singlehandedly. Including Thor, Hulk, Red Hulk, Thing, Storm, Iceman etc.

In addition, the reason that Invisible Woman can hurt a Celestial, is because her powers are derived from Hyperspace, which acts like Kryptonite to the Celestials, it is not because of her immense power, but merely a weakness on their behalf that allows her to deal some damage.

The Hex Powers again, seem to act like Kryptonite against the Phoenix 5, because it was not Magic that unravelled them, and no one else who was infinitely more powerful managed to lay the hurt on them, so that argument that the CCR would be more effective is null and void due to it's baseless assertions.

Again you miss a critical point of my argument. You haven't offered any counter argument for Invisible Woman's organ crush and blinding tactic. I'll go on to say that despite being host to a powerful cosmic entity, Cyclops is still human. So I'd imagine that attack could still hurt him seeing how he has lungs and he still has human eyes so his optic nerves can be blinded. With Cyclops in pain and unable to see, Susan can unleash a CCR blast at him. And I'm not arguing the CCR would be more effective, I'm saying that given the powers of Scarlet Witch being able to hurt the P5, I would definitely argue that a weapon capable of enhancing Annihulus' power to incredible levels means that Sue will be able to do some damage with the CCR. Remember she only needs to delay Cyclops and with him blinded, in pain and lashing out wildly, he won't be able to land a clean shot on Sue. And she has the Legion Flight ring's forcefield in addition to her own so she will possess great protection from Cyclops' attacks. And time is all she needs until Hal arrives.

Final Points

  • Wonder Woman is still capable of blitzing Genocide in the air, thus killing her before she reaches the ground
  • Hal is still above Kyle in terms of the capabilities of his 10 GL rings
  • Starbreaker is still distracted and worn out by Firestorm
  • Invisible Woman has still delayed Cyclops as you haven't given a counter for my Wolverine scan
  • The Faux GLC Corps have been slowed down and overpowered by Hal

Sorry this post isn't what it could be Backflip but I had a mock exam today so my brain's practically drained plus Esquire told me all posts had to be finished by 12pm continental time or something like that. So this is my last post. Your turn to finish

#28 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: @Backflip:

Hrm, I'm just barely going to give this to Backflip. It's a good fight, but I feel like Lvenger has left some of his team members unaccounted for.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#29 Posted by YoungJustice (6924 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not voting, sorry but I am still very pissed that I didnt get Starbreaker.

#30 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

I'm not voting, sorry but I am still very pissed that I didnt get Starbreaker.

I'm sorry, what?

With the greatest respect in the world, with juvenile behaviour like that, what right do you have to be in the tournament?

Regardless, I'd now move to block your vote on the basis of evident bias regardless.

#31 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

I'm not voting, sorry but I am still very pissed that I didnt get Starbreaker.

You're not voting because Backflip picked Starbreaker? That's immature beyond belief.

@Backflip: I second this. Even though I'm not an organiser of this tournament, this is our battle and even if YJ does vote for me, his vote is clearly biased, something not needed in the voting process.

#32 Posted by YoungJustice (6924 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow. I was joking. Goodness, chill.

#33 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: As far as I can assert, in the Draft Picking, YoungJustice chose Starbreaker, he was initially rejected. So when it came to the rest of us who weren't in the original Draft PM to have a shot at picks, I chose Starbreaker not having realized he'd previously been rejected. Anyway, I eventually negotiated with Nick to let me keep Starbreaker on 2 reasons.

1) I placed limits, he can only remain in his adult form, the one the looks like Dracula that is a bit of a team beater, but not above Surfer. No True form that went round moving planets and eating suns on a whim.

2) Also I reasoned that regardless, YJ and the rest had already had an advantage over the rest of us by getting first picks so therefore it shouldn't be too out of order for me to put forward a editted version of Starbreaker.

#34 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: @YoungJustice: @Lvenger:

YJ's just making a joke. He's demonstrated the ability to vote objectively in numerous tournaments, no need to jump all over him for a sardonic comment. Let's all just move on. Sound good? Thanks.

#35 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Sarcasm's hard to pick up on via the Internet you have to admit.

#36 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Very true. Just so we're all good now. :P

#37 Posted by YoungJustice (6924 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: @Lvenger: Sorry if I came off as anything but not funny.

@Esquire: Thanks for clearing that up

#38 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice: Don't worry about it buddy :P

#39 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice: Yeah it's fine no worries mate.

I think we need some more voters in here Backflip.

@consolemaster001 @Backflip

If you guys have the time to vote in mine and Backflip's debate, that'd be much appreciated!

#40 Posted by YoungJustice (6924 posts) - - Show Bio

I am going with backflip. I really liked his prep strategy and battle strategy.

#41 Posted by HigorM (4548 posts) - - Show Bio

has my vote, better gameplan overall..

#42 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (4977 posts) - - Show Bio

has my vote also. edged it out, and believed his team would take it from the start.

#43 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

Barely edging it to Backflip. His team is ridiculous, although Lvenger made a lot of strong arguments. The Genocide vs WW just tipped it in Backflips favor for me. Great debate by both of you!

#44 Posted by Backflip (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

Atm, it's

Backflip - 5

Lvenger - 0

Just wanted to say to even if I do end up winning this (Which seems likely at this moment), you've been fantastic, and a stellar arguer

#45 Posted by beatboks1 (7632 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for Lvenger.

Both had great arguments and for me there wasn't much in it. I'm primarily going for Lvenger because in no way here does he deserve a flogging ( as in the score so far is not a representation AT ALL on how this debate flowed)

#46 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: Thanks for the positive comments but you and I both know it's unlikely I'll come back from this! You made some excellent choices for your team, outlined an awesome use of prep time and countered my strategies with ease. I knew I drew the short straw when I found out I was debating you!

Besides this was my first proper tournament debate so I'm comparatively new to this kind of debating. I'm just glad I got to make a proper contribution to the battle forums with a well argued debate against a versatile opponent such as yourself! Congrats on the eventual win! :)