#1 Posted by Lvenger (17814 posts) - - Show Bio

Scenario:

The Chitauri have attacked Manhattan Island. The Avengers have met them in glorious battle. Into the midst of this chaos, two teams of superpowered beings appear. Both the Chitauri and the Avengers take them for enemies, and the battle swings to focus on the newcomers. The Council, seeing the new threat, launch a nuclear missile from the Helicarrier. The nuke will detonate 5 minutes after the start of the battle.

Rules

- Eliminate the enemy team.

- NOT Bloodlusted. Morals on, but characters will fight to the best of their abilities.

-Teams start on the buildings marked with letters, the team listed first in the topic title starts at point A, second listed at point B.

- No permanent BFR

- Both the Movie Avengers and Movie Chitauri will attack your teams. Their Morals are off. You are unable to reason with them. Avengers are those pictured plus Loki. Tony has Mark VII Armor. Hulk starts the battle Hulked out.

- Both Teams get 6 hours worth of Prep, but have no access to the battlefield. Teams get dossiers on their opponents after 4 hours, but are unaware of the conflict happening in Manhattan.

- The Prep allows you to make use of any of your resources, however I draw the line at inviting other people into the match. For Example. No Minions/Armies/LMDs however, if you had Madrox I'd allow duplicates naturally.

- No Time Manipulation or Reality Warping

-No acquiring artifacts that allow Time Manipulation or Reality Warping

vs

#2 Posted by Lvenger (17814 posts) - - Show Bio

Apologies for the two same threads. This is the one we're conducting our debate in because well this one has the full title lol.

#3 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Edited: I did not we were allow to use gear and tech our chracters were never seen using.

Well with that in mind my Prep is as follow....

1) loki has took a team of Average Humans and turn them into a match for the Ultimates.

He empowered 6 Humans into Super Humans.

He will also use same Power to Enhance the rest of the team as well.

He will Then also receive the Norn Stones from Father Odin that was used to Empower the Nazi Forces to Asgardian Levels on the team for added strength and Power.

2) Ultimate Phoenix will Increase EVERYONES Power by 9%. This will Boost him to Surpass Superman in Stats. Along with Lokis Enhancement and the Norn Stone Enhancement I should have a Sundip Supermen here.

As seen Jean knows how to do everything Xavier does and has more power to boot.

She will do this for Thor to putting him on Superman Level in Speed and Strength as well Surpassing Supes in durability.

3) Danny Creates 4 Hellfire Avatars all Equal in Strength to him Normally. with Lokis Enhancement they should be double that. They Will all have Wings for this as well.

8 Winged Equal Hellfire avatars as well Ketch. Then Ketch can go to Zadkiel and receave the Drinks that will allow him and everyone else receave further Strength Bonus equal to Samson of the Bible (1000 Men).

4) Loki will then Duplicate Himself and thru Spawn Magic as well his own Create the Enchanted Arrows he wields for all 6 Copies.

5) Spawn will Travel to the Green world to gain all the Favors and Powers he can to add to his own Power Pool. Then Spawn will strike a Bargain with Marbolgia and convince him to give Spawn Unlimited use of Necro Energy.



Allowing him unlimited Magic use limited by his Imagination Imagination.

6) Lastly Thor when Depowered had a Special Suit made for him to mimick his Power set and Powers. I will have the European Initiative the Time and Resources Needed to make Suits for Thor, Hyperion, Loki, Spawn, Phoenix, and Ghost Rider so they all have Default 100 Toner strength and supes Durability. Add to this each one will be given a Hammer that allows Lightning Powers of Thor and 4 Dimensional Teleporting.

All this can be done with Phoenix Time Control Powers.

So now with this Prep in Mind I have Ultimate Thor Level Guys, 9% Power Increase, Another Double Asgardian level power Upgrade via Loki, Mijnor Hammers, ontop of there regular Power sets.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As soon as the Battle Starts Jean will Mind Sweep the Area.

She has World Level Telepathy and quite Honestly No one on the Avenger Team or Chitari have shown any kind TP Resistance. This is too easy. She can Easily Force a Thought into there Heads to come after your Team.

Scans be Provided of her TP Power.

Now with the whole city Against Ya I can also TP where your Team is.

Next Ghost Rider, Thor, and Loki will Ground Your Team and all others with Flaming Skies, Lightning Strikes everywhere, and Hell Fire Rain.

Everyone Else can add there own lightning power to Thors.
#4 Edited by Lvenger (17814 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Excellent start. LMD is Life Model Decoy by the way. Now it's my turn:

My prep is as follows:

  • Superman and Hal travel to the 31st Century via Superman's Legion Flight Ring. There Superman asks Brainiac 5 for 4 specially made Legion flight rings. Remember the rings used in the Lightning Saga arc in the Justice League/Justice Society crossover? The ones that Brainiac 5 gave an impenetrable forcefield that Batman and Mr Terrific couldn't bring down with prep and not even Superman could break through? Yep now my team has 4 of those rings for added protection.
  • Next Superman asks Brainy to make an adult sized version of Superboy Prime's solar armour. The same armour that enhanced Prime's powers beyond their limit by collecting and feeding him yellow sun radiation and protected him from the effects of red solar radiation, making him even more of a force to be reckoned with. Once that's done, Superman puts on his solar armour and Legion flight ring and heads back to the past where he spends the remaining prep time sun dipping to enhance his powers even further, thus meaning that he'll become vastly more powerful than he was during Our Worlds at War. And he was scarily powerful then and didn't have Prime's suit to maintain yellow solar energy.
  • Meanwhile, Hal Jordan visits Sodam Yat, the last Guardian and convinces Yat to lend Hal an extra 9 rings for him to borrow so he can become as powerful as he was in Emerald Twilight. Only with more control and not being mad and evil and stuff. With 9 extra rings to conduct his impressive willpower through, Hal is even more powerful than ever before. And with 1 ring he was considered the greatest GL. Afterwards, Hal returns to Legion headquarters where he picks up the other 3 Legion flight rings and returns to the past to give the 3 rings to the other team members
  • During Wonder Woman's prep time, she fetches the Sandals of Hermes which grant the user great flight and speed to give to Hercules later. She also gets the Gauntlets of Atlas for herself which magnify the wearer's strength and stamina tenfold. She also fits herself with the magical sword used in For Tomorrow, her eagle battle armour for extra protection and requests that Carol Ferris allow her to become a back up member of the Star Sapphires once again, thus receiving a Star Sapphire ring which gives her all the abilities of a Star Sapphire. Plus she could combine the power of her ring with her lasso to enhance its effect.

  • Meanwhile Susan Richards goes to the Baxter Building to pick up some tech and prep advice from Reed Richards, one of the ultimate prep masters in comic book history. Also, she gets the cosmic control rod from Johnny which allows her the ability to access vast amounts of cosmic energy from the rod. This makes Sue even more dangerous in conjunction with her forcefield powers.
  • Hercules gets Thor to take him to Asgard and requests for Odin to lend him the Belt of Strength which is capable of doubling the wearer's strength. Next he gets his adamantine golden mace, a weapon as durable as Mjolnir, his Nemean lion cloak which acts as an invulnerable armour and shields Hercules from any harm and the Shield of Perseus which has the insignia of Medusa the Gorgon on it and can turn living beings into stone. Then he'll put on the Sandals of Hermes that WW has gotten for him. This turns Hercules into a far more versatile combatant.

You don't seem to have outlined anything for how your team uses the dossiers. Strange. Anyway after receiving the dossiers, Hal or WW call Martian Manhunter to give them TP protection from Jean. And before you quibble with this, 4 of my team are members of the League so it's highly plausible for them to call on their best telepath to shield them from Jean's TP. He leaves after shielding my team telepathically and won't help them in the fight further. After this, Wonder Woman studies the dossiers extensively and gives the team instructions on who to deal with in the fight. Now for my battle strategy post:

@CadenceV2 said: ___________________________________________________________

As soon as the Battle Starts Jean will Mind Sweep the Area.

She has World Level Telepathy and quite Honestly No one on the Avenger Team or Chitari have shown any kind TP Resistance. This is too easy. She can Easily Force a Thought into there Heads to come after your Team.

Scans be Provided of her TP Power.

Now with the whole city Against Ya I can also TP where your Team is.

Big whoop. The Chitauri and Avengers will be like ragdolls compared to my team as you can tell via the prep how I've enahanced them way beyond their limits. They could hold their own against this force without my prep. Now it'll be a walk in the park. And it's kind of your team to come to my team. It'll make it less difficult to find them even though Superman could do it via his senses or Hal via his rings.

@CadenceV2 said:

Next Ghost Rider, Thor, and Loki will Ground Your Team and all others with Flaming Skies, Lightning Strikes everywhere, and Hell Fire Rain.

Ha they won't be grounded at all! 4 of my team have Legion flight rings which project an impenetrable forcefield that protects them from harm. And Hal has 10 GL rings so he won't be affected at all.

@CadenceV2 said:

Loki will then use his Summoning s to their fullest to add weight to the attack against ya. 1 Giant Serphant, 2 Fire Demons, 5 Giant Feresian Wolves, and 100 Asgardian Strong Trolls.

(this is not really Prep or Outside Help as merely Summoning Beasts and Monsters like Loki does, this is all right now depending)

Your Move.

Sorry but this is against the rules. It's clearly stated "however I draw the line at inviting other people into the match. For Example. No Minions/Armies/LMDs however, if you had Madrox I'd allow duplicates naturally." What you're doing is clearly bringing in outside help, armies to assist your team and outside help for assistance. I'm afraid this move is invalid. The Ketch/Loki duplicates are fine but this isn't. Sorry but rules are rules.

Now for the rest of my strategy. Superman goes for Hyperion. This fight'll be over quickly given that Superman is amped beyond belief. A sun dipped Superman was many magnitudes more powerful than he would be usually, able to push War World into a Boom Tube to the Big Bang. And Prime's armour enabled him to store solar energy more effectively as well as being able to gather yellow solar radiation to boot. With the sun dipped solar energy effectively stored, Superman will be able to defeat Hyperion rather easily. I'd quibble with the Phoenix amp normally but here it doesn't matter because even with the amp, Hyperion won't be anywhere near Superman's level. That's one of your team down. Next Superman will blitz Thor, Loki and Ketch thus stopping their aerial assaults. Thor's reaction time (according to your own feat) is the speed of lightning which you'll argue is half the speed of light. That's all well and good but Superman will be travelling at a much faster speed when attacking the aerial team. He won't continue attacking Ketch due to his formidable power but Loki and Thor will be unconscious in a split second.

Hercules will go after your Loki duplicates. He'll be protected from the arrows via the Nemean lion cloak and shield and can turn the duplicates to stone with the shield or clobber them into submission should he get close enough. And H2H Hercules wreaks Ultimate Loki so 6 duplicates won't take much longer to take care of.

Firestorm will engage Jean. One thing I noticed whilst researching her powers is that she's capable of producing an almost inexhaustible amount of flames as the Phoenix. This plays right into Firestorm's hands. He can easily endure her fire attacks having phased through Brimstone's body which is hotter than the sun

and created a fan construct that protected a planet from some solar flares

Firestorm's strategy will be to absorb any fire attacks Phoenix throws at him. She'll be wasting her flames on him. All it'll take for Firestorm to beat Jean is to create some chloroform or knock out gas for Jean to breath in and be knocked unconscious. And that's well within his limits. Alternatively he could surround Jean with hydrogen and wait for her to use a fire attack like he did with the Anti Monitor. Thanks to MM's TP shields, he won't be affected by Jean's TP.

Invisible Woman and Hal will hold off Spawn thanks to the LFL working in conjunction with her forcefields for protection and the CCR to keep Spawn at bay. And Hal with 10 GL rings will act as a frontal assault on Spawn. WW will blitz the Ketch duplicates which will be an easier than usual task given that the Gauntlets of Atlas enhance her strength tenfold plus she can use the Star Sapphire ring to create constructs to aid her in her endeavor. Once this is done Superman joins in with her blitzing, Hercules assists them also and diverts off to delay Ketch. Firestorm will join Sue and Hal to overpower Spawn and then WW will assist Sue/Hal once she's finished with the Ketch avatars whilst Superman joins Hercules to finish Ketch. With Superman and Wonder Woman on hand to dispatch foes quickly, Ketch and Spawn will go down quite quickly.

Finally you haven't said how your team will be protected from the nuke. My legion flight rings can protect my team. What protects your duplicates and team from the nuke?

Your turn.

#5 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: I edited my prep. I had no idea we could do more with the gear (as in given gear and tech characters never seen using before) and share Gear.

Anyway my Starting Strategy is the same.

Post me back your ready to move foward if ya edit your post.

#6 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Alright Im going to debate a few things anyway.

You ask about the Dossiers which means My guys already have 2 hours to study. I have Spawn who is the greatest Assassin and warrior in Hevean, Hell, and Earth. I Have Loki who with knowledge destroyed Asgard and nearly took out Ultimate Marvel Earth twice with restraint. I also have Thor and Hyperion who respectivly train warriors. Then I have Jean who has lead the X-Team before and since after Ultimatnum.

My team has a good Idea of yours.

Since we are going all out I am now as well. :)

Phoenix is by far the better Telepath over Martian Manhunter Defense Blocks.

As seen she has Mind Wipe the world (Inluding uber Telepaths) of all events like nothing. She has beaten Xavier twice with ease. Only by appealing to Jean has Xavier defeated Phoenix.

Jean as herself Bypasses NC Psy Defenses. Then as Phoenix she by pass Wolverines who in the Ultimate Verse is Immune to TP Reading.

Also another mistake is asume her Fire is always fire....

Its all in your head. No way to play with her Mental Fire. Then she Mind Rapes Firestorm.

Also I have 4 Magic guys on my team up to Sundip Superman Level now. I think I can beat Superman with ease now.

Heck Spawn Alone can do this from the Shadows where Superman cant touch him.

Also Spawn like Phoenix has world Level Empathy thru the Green. I can find your team via Magic anyways.

Also I never said My guys are coming to you at all. I have jean who can Mind Wipe our Presence from all your guys since you have no Magic or Psykers. Spawn and Loki alone are Wolrd Level Illusionist They together can keep me invisible to any Green Lantern Ring unless you prove otherwise.

#7 Edited by Lvenger (17814 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: You've changed your prep quite late but that's fine. Now for my no bars hold response

@CadenceV2 said:

Phoenix is by far the better Telepath over Martian Manhunter Defense Blocks.

I beg to differ here. He protected himself from the telepathic En'Tarans, who enslaved the rest of the League as well as the entire population of the planet Rann.

He protects Aquaman from a giant Star Conqueror, each one capable of putting a continent to sleep whilst broadcasting a counter-frequency that forces all the Star Conquerors to leave Earth.

Plus the combined efforts of 9 White Martians who had siphoned telepathic abilities of Earth's population couldn't break his psychic shields

So yeah Jean isn't going to have any better luck taking out MM's telepathic defenses than all these other guys were.

@CadenceV2 said:

As seen she has Mind Wipe the world (Inluding uber Telepaths) of all events like nothing. She has beaten Xavier twice with ease. Only by appealing to Jean has Xavier defeated Phoenix.

Impressive. But I fail to see what relevance those feats have to the context of the battle. Plus I've provided feats of MM's telepathic defenses (even though he's nowhere to be seen in this fight) so I've countered your point there

@CadenceV2 said:

Also another mistake is asume her Fire is always fire....

Its all in your head. No way to play with her Mental Fire. Then she Mind Rapes Firestorm.

Oh damn I did not know it was mental fire. Well that puts a damper in the absorption plan. Nonetheless, even as the Phoenix, Jean is still essentially human and Firestorm's chloroform or knock out gas move still stands. Jean has no defense against Firestorm doing that or just blasting her into unconsciousness. Mentally she'll be busy trying to take down the TP shields and physically she doesn't stand a chance against Firestorm.

@CadenceV2 said:

Also I have 4 Magic guys on my team up to Sundip Superman Level now. I think I can beat Superman with ease now.

Heck Spawn Alone can do this from the Shadows where Superman cant touch him.

You seem to have forgotten it's not just sun dipped Superman. It's a sun dipped Superman with Prime's armour that stores and feeds him more yellow solar radiation. So Superman will be vastly more powerful than if he just sun dipped. Hyperion will be taken down easily even with the power suit and hammer as he's still not on Superman's level. Thor will still be taken down as he won't be able to contend with Superman's strength, speed and durability advantage. Loki will be taken down easily as he doesn't have any reaction feats to speak of. And Ketch will be blitzed and dealt with later. And Superman won't be going for Spawn in this fight. Invisible Woman and Hal will take him on and will be joined by Firestorm once he's taken out Jean.

@CadenceV2 said:

Also Spawn like Phoenix has world Level Empathy thru the Green. I can find your team via Magic anyways.

Also I never said My guys are coming to you at all. I have jean who can Mind Wipe our Presence from all your guys since you have no Magic or Psykers. Spawn and Loki alone are Wolrd Level Illusionist They together can keep me invisible to any Green Lantern Ring unless you prove otherwise.

Fine but my team can probably find you anyway thanks to Superman's sense. As for your Jean point, I've provided evidence that she won't be able to overcome MM's TP shields so she won't mind wipe the team's presence from my team. And to finish my post, I'll find some evidence of a GL ring finding some invisible things that'll counter your last point. Then I'll be done.

#8 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

I beg to differ here. He protected himself from the telepathic En'Tarans, who enslaved the rest of the League as well as the entire population of the planet Rann.

He protects Aquaman from a giant Star Conqueror, each one capable of putting a continent to sleep whilst broadcasting a counter-frequency that forces all the Star Conquerors to leave Earth.

Plus the combined efforts of 9 White Martians who had siphoned telepathic abilities of Earth's population couldn't break his psychic shields

So yeah Jean isn't going to have any better luck taking out MM's telepathic defenses than all these other guys were.

Problem is Phoenix has broken Mental Block on mutiple occassions with ease. NC, Wolverine, Xavier twice, Apocalypse, the whole Planet! So the mere fact you have NO Manhunter here to keep me from breaking your teams mental blocks in a short time puts a damper on this.

Also Phoenix fully unleash > Manhunter.

A Abstract Being that created the Universe and took a Universe Effort to be captured.

Impressive. But I fail to see what relevance those feats have to the context of the battle. Plus I've provided feats of MM's telepathic defenses (even though he's nowhere to be seen in this fight) so I've countered your point there

They Prove she can by pass Mental Blocks that Xavier couldn't even bypass. Those are suppose to be unbreakable Psy Blocks. She Broke them effortlessly.

Oh damn I did not know it was mental fire. Well that puts a damper in the absorption plan. Nonetheless, even as the Phoenix, Jean is still essentially human and Firestorm's chloroform or knock out gas move still stands. Jean has no defense against Firestorm doing that or just blasting her into unconsciousness. Mentally she'll be busy trying to take down the TP shields and physically she doesn't stand a chance against Firestorm.

Physically Phoenix dont stand a Chance! Here let me educate you on Phoenix.....

This is apocalypse. He has beaten the ultimate Fantastic 4 (no easy feat as Ultimate IW and Thing are >>> 616 Version and so is Ultimate Reed). Then easily tanks a City Level Attack from Shield. Finaly he outrights beat a Amped Xavier in a TP attacks. He is the baddest Mutant.

At least till he was made to look like a child by Phoenix Power.

She simply trumped him and took his best attack.

Then we have the Silver Searcher....

One of the most powerful beings in Ultimate Marvel. He destroys Planets with ease and takes out Thanos.

Ultimate Phoenix Trumps him. A Silver Surfer.

Anyway Gas wont work on her. She doesnt need to breath at all as seen in space.

Here she easily tanks a Blood Lusted hit from Colossus (Multi Thousand Toner) On Banshee. She also Tanks Cyclopes on Banshee Nuke Beams. She shows no sign of harm. Then we have her Natural Speed Reaction. This is her flying from Antarctica to Florida in seconds all the while reacting to the radiation and Nuclear Meltdown.. Then we have her flying around the Universe at FTL Speed till Reacting to SS.

She also covered the Universe in a week time and back to Earth in a day travel. That is Speed.

As well Maintain Coms, Read your Minds, and increase Performance in my characters minds. At the Same time. She also can beat thru Invisible Woman's Shields with ease. she Done it already.

She has Atomize a Nuclear Meltdown... Radiation and all at the core of the Nuke Plant!

So Phoenix here can Destroy your Menyal Blocks. You simply dont have any Psyker to Maintain them and Jean is a Better Psyker in Raw Power. She can also TK through shields..... Big help here and instant Kill Wonder Woman. She can also on the Atomic Level kill anyone on your team. Superman ever shown resistance to Molecule Manipulation? Thought not.

You seem to have forgotten it's not just sun dipped Superman. It's a sun dipped Superman with Prime's armour that stores and feeds him more yellow solar radiation. So Superman will be vastly more powerful than if he just sun dipped. Hyperion will be taken down easily even with the power suit and hammer as he's still not on Superman's level. Thor will still be taken down as he won't be able to contend with Superman's strength, speed and durability advantage. Loki will be taken down easily as he doesn't have any reaction feats to speak of. And Ketch will be blitzed and dealt with later. And Superman won't be going for Spawn in this fight. Invisible Woman and Hal will take him on and will be joined by Firestorm once he's taken out Jean.

Problem with your Plan is all my guys are uber now due to the all out prep.

All my guys have their stats + Thor Stats + Plus Double there Stats again via Lokis Magic and Norn Stones + Strength of Bible Samson + 9% via Phoenix (roughly 5 times normal Superman) = Hyperion, Spawn, Thor, loki, Phoenix, and Ketch all equal to your Sun Dip Superman in Armour. With my prep I have ridiculasly increase Strength, Speed, and Durability to match.

Added in all my guys have Instant Teleporters and Lightning Control.

Fine but my team can probably find you anyway thanks to Superman's sense. As for your Jean point, I've provided evidence that she won't be able to overcome MM's TP shields so she won't mind wipe the team's presence from my team. And to finish my post, I'll find some evidence of a GL ring finding some invisible things that'll counter your last point. Then I'll be done.

I Still find it hard to believe Martian Manhunter Mind Defenses will ever hold out vs a Universe Level Abstract TP :) at all. Truth is your argument becomes less with what I posted above. So after a short time at worst she breaks the mental blocks. Then its Mind Rape city.

Also you have no way finding me when I have Magic concealing my guys. You have No Magic users. I also have a Tlepath who is eroding your Mental Blocks and mentaly Mind Raping ya.

You have no Psy Resistance or Magic Resistance.

I Have 1 Uber Psyker Abstract Being (Ultimate Phoenix) 3 Skyfather Level Beings in Magic )Loki, GR, Spawn), and 2 Sun Dip Supermen (Thor, Hyperion) here.

You Basicaly have Green Lanterns and Superman Bricks.

Now more feats of what you cant counter...

As Seen here Loki Magic and TP had change people and physical evidence to his own ends. This includes the Worlds Telepaths like Xavier, Jean, and Shields Psy Division.

Then we have Spawn with unlimited Necro Energy.

This guy with Unlimited Power is Basicly King of Hell Spawn and a World Level Telepath himself.

So he too can help break those Mental Blocks. This Scan also shows how easy a Hell king can BFR.

I have 3 Characters who can break those Mental Blocks and all 3 are > MM in TP Power/Feats.

Add to this Spawn Magic and what he can do.

Spawn Illusion Casting is something you Have No defense for. As well his Shadow Portation. You have no Character who can keep him out of the Shadows or attack him Magically in the shadows.

I also have 3 BFRing capable People.

I can Temporarly BFR thru...

Ghost Rider. He can Temp BFR you with him to his Dimension where he is God. Half the Team will be stuck while the other half is killed by mine and the Hellfire Avatars.

Thor. He has BFR a entire Army back to Asgard. He can do so again with half you team with him.

I can easily Teleport or Phase into Superman and Rip him out as even Sundip he is WEAK to Magic. His Uber power doesn't protect him nearly as much to Spawn Magic Suit and Blasts from inside his body.

This attack at the Level Spawn is for this thanks to the Prep will Instant Kill anyone on your team.

I also have one more unique advantage. None of my guys can dies really thanks to Spawn and Phoenix.

As seen you have no way of killing my guys. Heck you have no way of beating GR really as WW is the only one capable of hurting him and if she goes down your whole team is srewed. Same goes for Spawn who requires Divine Weapons to kill when at Hell King power.

.__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Recap...

I outnumber you in guys. 9 Skyfather level Ghost Riders. 7 Skyfather level Loki's. 1 Sun Dip Supe Level Thor. 1 Sundip Supes Level Hyperion. 1 Skyfather level Spawn. Finnaly 1 Abstract Being level Phoenix.

I have the Numbers Advantage. I have MUTPLE ways of winning. I have more devastating attacks. I also have 3 guys who can BFR. 2 Guys can Ressurect the Dead. 2 Guys need Divine weapons or Power to kill period. Finnaly I have 3 Telepaths and 4 Magic Beings that you have no Defense Against.

I have this.

#9 Posted by Lvenger (17814 posts) - - Show Bio

just so you know I'll be busy today and back late tonight but I'll get back to you with a reply tomorrow.

#10 Posted by Lvenger (17814 posts) - - Show Bio

OK I'm on a crummy laptop downstairs and all my scans are on the faster computer upstairs but my dad's hogging the office with business calls so I'll amend this post with scans later

@CadenceV2 said:

Problem is Phoenix has broken Mental Block on mutiple occassions with ease. NC, Wolverine, Xavier twice, Apocalypse, the whole Planet! So the mere fact you have NO Manhunter here to keep me from breaking your teams mental blocks in a short time puts a damper on this.

Also Phoenix fully unleash > Manhunter.

A Abstract Being that created the Universe and took a Universe Effort to be captured.

If Manhunter's TP defenses starts to be eroded away by Jean, Hal can provide the team with extra TP protection. He's protected himself from Hammond's and MM's TP before with just one ring. With 10 rings boosting his power, he'll be able to construct much stronger TP defenses for all of my team that should keep the Phoenix out for long enough for her to be dealt with. Also if Jean is an abstract level bein, how come she's allowed on your team? If that were the case she'd be way more powerful than the Silver Surfer limit in this tournament.

@CadenceV2 said:

They Prove she can by pass Mental Blocks that Xavier couldn't even bypass. Those are suppose to be unbreakable Psy Blocks. She Broke them effortlessly.

Hal's TP defenses provide an extra barrier for Jean to overcome. And MM's TP defense feats>Ultimate Xavier's TP feats. This combined effort can keep Jean out long enough for her to be dealt with by my team, either by the vastly more powerful sun dipped Superman or amped Wonder Woman.

@CadenceV2 said:

Physically Phoenix dont stand a Chance! Here let me educate you on Phoenix.....

This is apocalypse. He has beaten the ultimate Fantastic 4 (no easy feat as Ultimate IW and Thing are >>> 616 Version and so is Ultimate Reed). Then easily tanks a City Level Attack from Shield. Finaly he outrights beat a Amped Xavier in a TP attacks. He is the baddest Mutant.

At least till he was made to look like a child by Phoenix Power.

She simply trumped him and took his best attack.

Then we have the Silver Searcher....

One of the most powerful beings in Ultimate Marvel. He destroys Planets with ease and takes out Thanos.

Ultimate Phoenix Trumps him. A Silver Surfer.

Anyway Gas wont work on her. She doesnt need to breath at all as seen in space.

Congratulations. I can't find anything to quibble with in this post. It still doesn't show she's on the same level as my team physically but it's a close enough feat. However the same cannot be said for the next part:

@CadenceV2 said:

Here she easily tanks a Blood Lusted hit from Colossus (Multi Thousand Toner) On Banshee. She also Tanks Cyclopes on Banshee Nuke Beams. She shows no sign of harm. Then we have her Natural Speed Reaction. This is her flying from Antarctica to Florida in seconds all the while reacting to the radiation and Nuclear Meltdown.. Then we have her flying around the Universe at FTL Speed till Reacting to SS.

She also covered the Universe in a week time and back to Earth in a day travel. That is Speed.

What was she like after the hit? It seems like she's knocked out after hitting the wall from Colossus' strike. As for speed feats, those are impressive. But it's combat speed, not travel speed that's the question here. None of the feats provided demonstrate Jean has any feasible combat speed whereas Superman is well known for his blitzing tacitcs, Wonder Woman possesses faster reaction times than Superman and GLs can programm their ring to auto fire on something moving above a specific speed just as John Stewart programmed his ring to do with Superman when he started being mind controlled by Maxwell Lord. So this nullifies Phoenix's speed advantage.

@CadenceV2 said:

As well Maintain Coms, Read your Minds, and increase Performance in my characters minds. At the Same time. She also can beat thru Invisible Woman's Shields with ease. she Done it already.

How useful is the increase performence thing? What relevance does this have on a combat scenario? As for Sue she'll know Phoenix can't be contained thanks to the dossiers so will keep her at bay with the CCR and her own more offensive uses of her own forcefield powers. Plus Sue has more deadly uses of her powers. This is a tactic I used on Backflip to good effect on a PF Cyclops. Here Sue uses her powers to blind Wolverine and constrict his lungs

Despite her power, Jean is still a human host to the Phoenix so this tactic will still work on her all the same. With Jean blinded and in pain, she'll be a much easier target for Superman or Wonder Woman to KO. Colossus seemed to do an OK job of that and he's a thousand tonner. Superman and Wonder Woman will be vastly beyond that point thanks to the sundip and Gauntlets of Atlas respectively.

@CadenceV2 said:

She has Atomize a Nuclear Meltdown... Radiation and all at the core of the Nuke Plant!

So Phoenix here can Destroy your Menyal Blocks. You simply dont have any Psyker to Maintain them and Jean is a Better Psyker in Raw Power. She can also TK through shields..... Big help here and instant Kill Wonder Woman. She can also on the Atomic Level kill anyone on your team. Superman ever shown resistance to Molecule Manipulation? Thought not.

Now that you mention it Superman has shown some matter manipulation resistance feats. I learnt this courtesy of CitizenBane in a Superman vs Dr Manhatten battle. Here they are.

So yeah Superman should be able to resist matter manipulation just fine thanks to the sun dip boost.

@CadenceV2 said:

Problem with your Plan is all my guys are uber now due to the all out prep.

All my guys have their stats + Thor Stats + Plus Double there Stats again via Lokis Magic and Norn Stones + Strength of Bible Samson + 9% via Phoenix (roughly 5 times normal Superman) = Hyperion, Spawn, Thor, loki, Phoenix, and Ketch all equal to your Sun Dip Superman in Armour. With my prep I have ridiculasly increase Strength, Speed, and Durability to match.

Added in all my guys have Instant Teleporters and Lightning Control.

Superman will have spent practically 6 hours sun dipping during the prep time. In the short time he sundipped during our Worlds at War, he became many times more powerful able to push a planet into a Boom Tube. With 6 hours of sun dipping under his belt plus Prime's armour keeping that solar energy in store and constantly feeding him more, he'll still be just as powerful at the start of the battle as he will be later on. The same cannot be said for your team though and Superman will be able to overpower them. Plus Wonder Woman has 10 times her normal strength due to the Gauntlets of Atlas plus a Star Sapphire ring which Carol will give her a crash course in using. So whilst you may have the numbers advantage, you do not have the power advantage. At least not with Thor, Loki and Hyperion who can be dealt with very quickly. Finally how is the Phoenix able to make someone 9% more powerful and how is it comparable to Superman? You still haven't shown me that yet.

@CadenceV2 said:

I Still find it hard to believe Martian Manhunter Mind Defenses will ever hold out vs a Universe Level Abstract TP :) at all. Truth is your argument becomes less with what I posted above. So after a short time at worst she breaks the mental blocks. Then its Mind Rape city.

Also you have no way finding me when I have Magic concealing my guys. You have No Magic users. I also have a Tlepath who is eroding your Mental Blocks and mentaly Mind Raping ya.

You have no Psy Resistance or Magic Resistance.

I Have 1 Uber Psyker Abstract Being (Ultimate Phoenix) 3 Skyfather Level Beings in Magic )Loki, GR, Spawn), and 2 Sun Dip Supermen (Thor, Hyperion) here.

You Basicaly have Green Lanterns and Superman Bricks.

Now more feats of what you cant counter...

As Seen here Loki Magic and TP had change people and physical evidence to his own ends. This includes the Worlds Telepaths like Xavier, Jean, and Shields Psy Division.

I still fail to see how with all the battle going on around her Jean won't be preoccupied or taken down as I illustrated earlier. So she won't be taking anyone's mind defenses down. Also if she's an abstract entity to start off with then she breaks the rules of this tournament. And you've overlooked who else I have on my team. True I have an amped Green Lantern, a sun dipped Superman, a powered up Wonder Woman and Hercules but I also have Firestorm who adds some real versatility into the mix thanks to his ability to transmute and create nearly anything. As for your 'uncounterable points' that's all well and good but Hal is capble of some illusions too. (scan to come)

Here he creates a replica of Coast City complete with people, buildings, trees etc. He can simply create a maze within a maze and conceal my team meaning your team has to smash their way through the constrcuted city leaving my team the ability to outflank you.

Post unfinished. More to come.

#11 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

If Manhunter's TP defenses starts to be eroded away by Jean, Hal can provide the team with extra TP protection. He's protected himself from Hammond's and MM's TP before with just one ring. With 10 rings boosting his power, he'll be able to construct much stronger TP defenses for all of my team that should keep the Phoenix out for long enough for her to be dealt with. Also if Jean is an abstract level bein, how come she's allowed on your team? If that were the case she'd be way more powerful than the Silver Surfer limit in this tournament.

Answer to the Rings below. I have also 3 World Level TPers. Spawn, Loki, and Phoenix. I showed Spawns potential with the Hell King Malbolgia Scan as well as Lokis TP feats.

Jean is allowed cause cause I was using Jean Phoenix. I wasnt using Phoenix Force all out. However you did the CRAZIEST Things with Prep so Jean is Phoenixing out like she did against Apocalypse. She is Normaly holding the controls limiting her power. She is all out now.

Also Since your using OMG PWNAGE Superman with 20 Rings, Legion Rings, Solar Armour, ect, ect, I see no reason to complain why I am allowing her to Phoenix out or allow Spawn to become Hell King level.

I picked Below superman Characters for the purpose of the rules and yet a few people are above that and broke that rule with Prep. Are you seriously going to say Firestorm is weaker to Surfer by himself?

Thank you Prep.

Hal's TP defenses provide an extra barrier for Jean to overcome. And MM's TP defense feats>Ultimate Xavier's TP feats. This combined effort can keep Jean out long enough for her to be dealt with by my team, either by the vastly more powerful sun dipped Superman or amped Wonder Woman.

As I will still post below the next quote that she is 1 of 2 Heavy Hitters who outclass Silver Surfer. Thanks to the Insane unruly Prep we allow in this damn Tourney I have Hell King Spawn = to Ultimate Phoenix. Both Spawn and Loki have world level illusions that your team fail to show a way against at all to reach Phoenix.

Also I still see no counter to Hell King Spawn ripping Superman Inside out Instantly.

Or any counter to Spawn and Loki Mind Level TP along with Jeans helping rip the blocks down.

Its 3 TPs vs MM Mental Blocks and some Ring Protection.... drain those Rings of power quick I should say.

As proven she is a Bada$$.

After getting hit by Colossus she simply stands right up and tells Cyke he is on Banshee and then Pins him in place. No KO at all. Phoenix has never been KO at all.

I posted Reaction speed Feats. she reacted Traveling FTL to a FTL Silver Searcher. She also reacted Near Speed of Light while she traverse to the Nuclear Power Plant. She was already throwing a a force field en route and lifting it via TK. In fact she can stop time completly. Since thats not allowed She has these 2 Reaction Feats. She simply Thinks faster than Superman which is her power. She dont need to fist and cuffs when she can TK him silly. Or Atomize him on the Molecule Level. Game Set Match.

Also this is all IF your characters can even find a way past my Magic Illusions by 2 World Level Magic Users. All your Speed Blitzing mean nothing if you don't have a target.

How useful is the increase performence thing? What relevance does this have on a combat scenario? As for Sue she'll know Phoenix can't be contained thanks to the dossiers so will keep her at bay with the CCR and her own more offensive uses of her own forcefield powers. Plus Sue has more deadly uses of her powers. This is a tactic I used on Backflip to good effect on a PF Cyclops. Here Sue uses her powers to blind Wolverine and constrict his lungs

Despite her power, Jean is still a human host to the Phoenix so this tactic will still work on her all the same. With Jean blinded and in pain, she'll be a much easier target for Superman or Wonder Woman to KO. Colossus seemed to do an OK job of that and he's a thousand tonner. Superman and Wonder Woman will be vastly beyond that point thanks to the sundip and Gauntlets of Atlas respectively.

Sue is a non factor.

Jean has already use her Power while traped by sue in her bubble.

So Sue defenses mean nothing. Also Blinding Phoenix means nothing when she can see via TP.

So inlike PF Cyclopes Ultimate Jean WRECKS Sue here.

First Scan is Omega Beams that simpley erase you from existence and Supes been said protected by the Presence which is why DS cant off him. Second Scan said he was prepared for it. Is it Prep with Tech or what? Doesn't really answered anything. 3rd and 4th Scan are all Proof Phoenix will Unmake him Sundip or not.

Thats again if Hell King Spawn doesn't just Teleport inside him and rip out.....

Superman will have spent practically 6 hours sun dipping during the prep time. In the short time he sundipped during our Worlds at War, he became many times more powerful able to push a planet into a Boom Tube. With 6 hours of sun dipping under his belt plus Prime's armour keeping that solar energy in store and constantly feeding him more, he'll still be just as powerful at the start of the battle as he will be later on. The same cannot be said for your team though and Superman will be able to overpower them. Plus Wonder Woman has 10 times her normal strength due to the Gauntlets of Atlas plus a Star Sapphire ring which Carol will give her a crash course in using. So whilst you may have the numbers advantage, you do not have the power advantage. At least not with Thor, Loki and Hyperion who can be dealt with very quickly. Finally how is the Phoenix able to make someone 9% more powerful and how is it comparable to Superman? You still haven't shown me that yet.

Wow your using a argument of "He should" instead of actual feats.... I can see why you think that but do you have ANY PROOF at all how strong he is with 6 hours Sundipping?

I can easily say Hell King Unlimited Power in Necro SHOULD destroy Galaxies..... But that is not proven.

All is proven is your biggest Brick Superman with all this gear is still no match for Heaven Om Fire Ghost Rider, Loki, or Hell King Spawn all thanks to magic. Also Phoenix full out still trumps him in power alone as well abilities.

All the strength in the world means NOTHING if I can use Magik to by pass it, mess with your head, or siply Instnat Kill you cause you have NO Magic Protection.

Penance Stare, Phoenix Atomic Molecule Level Destruction, Spawns Teleport Inside and Rip out, Spawns Molecule Level Burning, Soul Burning Hellfire, Lokis Enchanted Arrows, Lokis Magic Flaming Sky, Lokis TP, Lokis Illusions. Spawn Illusions, Spawns TP, Phoenix TP, Thors Magical City Covering Lightning Attacks, Thors Magical Mijnor (which I havent even cover yet), Ghost Riders immunity to non Magical Harm, Ghost Rider BFRing (Temp), Lokis BFRing (Temp), Thors BFRing (Temp), Spawns BFRing (Temp). Plus I have the Norn Stones on all my guys due to prep giving Magic itself to there attacks and defense....

I listed at least over a dozen reasons I win.

You have the strongest Bricks.... I have Versatile Characters, Psykers, and Magic.

I still fail to see how with all the battle going on around her Jean won't be preoccupied or taken down as I illustrated earlier. So she won't be taking anyone's mind defenses down. Also if she's an abstract entity to start off with then she breaks the rules of this tournament. And you've overlooked who else I have on my team. True I have an amped Green Lantern, a sun dipped Superman, a powered up Wonder Woman and Hercules but I also have Firestorm who adds some real versatility into the mix thanks to his ability to transmute and create nearly anything. As for your 'uncounterable points' that's all well and good but Hal is capble of some illusions too. (scan to come)

Here he creates a replica of Coast City complete with people, buildings, trees etc. He can simply create a maze within a maze and conceal my team meaning your team has to smash their way through the constrcuted city leaving my team the ability to outflank you.

I posted easy that as soon the Battle starts your guys are dealing with the chitari and Avengers. You can say Superman and Company Speed Blitz them but its still a split second needed to cast my MAGICAL Illusions. You have no Magic to see through it or TP to sense past it. X-Ray Vision and even the GL Rings are all limited to as Non Magical or TP abilities.

You have no way of ever countering me. Plus I have Hell Fire Rain, 6 city Area Lightning Storms, A entire Sky On Fire! Your guys are grounded. Your guys cant find me. Your guys are getting Mental Blocks Torn down with 3 World Level Telepaths.

Also if you get in range of one of my guys or the GR Avatars can BFR you to their Dimension where your temporarily stuck and I bring you back to finish you. Heck anyone with a Thor Hammer and Thors own Mijnor ca BFR your best members (Firestorm and Superman) to Asgard and kill the weaker Members and bring them back.

Also Spawn in every shadow using Unlimited Magic to bombard you and Teleport/Rip Out your best guys. You can NEVER See it coming.

All my guys are amped to past Superman Level via loki Magic, Thor suit Harness, Thor Hammers, Norn Stones, Samson Juice, and Phoenix 9% power Unlocking.

Also All my guys are in contact with each other via Jeans TP link. All my guys are on the same Page.

Post unfinished. More to come.

Cool.

#12 Posted by Esquire (3823 posts) - - Show Bio

This was such a cool tourney, it would be a shame to let it die. Looks like it's Cadence's turn for a rebuttal?

#13 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: I made my rebuttal. i was last to post :)

#14 Posted by Esquire (3823 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Lol, so you were. Reading fail on my part.

You still interested in finishing this tourney?

#15 Posted by Lvenger (17814 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Ah I'm afraid I can't. I'm taking a break from Comicvine as of today because I have exams coming up which I need to start doing more revision for and I tend to cut out most distractions in that time, Comicvine being one of them. So I'm afraid I won't be able to continue in the tourney. As such, I'll concede this debate and let @CadenceV2: advance to the next round. He was clearly winning the debate anyway so he'd be better suited to advancing to the next round. Sorry I can't finish this debate but I'll be off here for the next couple of weeks and won't be able to participate in the tournament.

#16 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Thanks. Good luck with the exams. Im not looking forward to mine at all.