#1 Edited by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

New Illuminati

VS

New Avengers

Rules

  • Morals are on
  • No prep
  • Win by KO/incapacitation/death

Location

  • Begin visible
  • Begin 30 feat apart
  • unpopulated
  • Fight takes place here:

Who wins and why?

#2 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

Scenario 1: With the tech, I think Bucky can take down beast. He can use stealth on beast as well. I don't think Captain America has anything that can take Luke Cage down for good, and Luke Cage is honestly above what his stats say in his handbook jumping out of airplanes that create carters and performing thunderclaps that knock people out. DD and Black Panther are close to a stalemate, Black Panther has an edge here.

Scenario 2: Black Panther, with PIS has taken down an unready Cage. His tech triumph's Bucky's tech. I think a serious Steve not holding back could take out DD, and Beast could give DD and Bucky trouble.

Playing out all the scenarios in my head, if BP uses vibranium pointed knives, he could quickly incapacitate Luke Cage, disable Bucky's arm and probably use the vibranium shock waves to propogate sound to disrupt DD. With Steve and Beast backing him up, I think Team 1 wins it. Black Panther tech is just too good, he has extreme durability and can probably out stealth Bucky due to turning invisible.

Limit BP and we have a more fair fight. Limit either his gear or his abilities like when he was in hells kitchen or both.

#3 Posted by xlab3000 (3118 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap and the others should win

#4 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I have the gear they have listed in beside there names. All black panther has here are energy daggers. All though good catch on the invisibility, I was wondering why black panther was drawn that way while reading the issue.

@xlab3000 said:

Cap and the others should win

Reason?

#5 Posted by xlab3000 (3118 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D: I have the gear they have listed in beside there names. All black panther has here are energy daggers. All though good catch on the invisibility, I was wondering why black panther was drawn that way while reading the issue.

@xlab3000 said:

Cap and the others should win

Reason?

It's a close battle but I use the obd calculations in my fights since most of them are accurate

#6 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: What are obd calculations?

#7 Posted by xlab3000 (3118 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Well that makes it more fair. I think BP can take down Luke Cage with those energy daggers, if he were to stab Luke Cage in specific nerves with the fine point, this wouldn't be PIS:

But of course it will be harder since Luke Cage is fighting back and perform thunderclaps now

I've also seen him do it in Thunderbolts. And his insane durability

I would have to think about it more on who would win now. Without a vibranium suit, I think BP could get KOed if Luke Cage Thunderclapped him against a concrete wall and Bucky shot him afterward.

#9 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by xlab3000 (3118 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: No. the obd calculations are made by teens and adults i just go to their forums and see the calcs

#11 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000 said:

@SlimJ87D: No. the obd calculations are made by teens and adults i just go to their forums and see the calcs

IC. Well I don't have time to check their math, but it's easy as applying Newton's laws of kinematics. If they use that as their guidelines then it should be somewhat accurate. The only possible flaws I can see are the parameters they had to assume (like scaling lengths, etc).

#12 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure how I missed it, but when was Beast added to the Illuminati?

#13 Posted by dondave (33589 posts) - - Show Bio

New Illuminati

Online
#14 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

New Illuminati

#15 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Not sure how I missed it, but when was Beast added to the Illuminati?

He hasn't been added yet all though he is suppose to be replacing professor X. He is also one of the silhouettes on new avengers #1. This is also suppose to be a alternate cover for new avengers #2.

Simone Bianchi

@dondave said:

New Illuminati

@Bo88gdan said:

@dondave said:

New Illuminati

Reason?

#16 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP

#17 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Just FYI, there is no conformation that is invisibility or even tech for that matter with regards to T'challa powers/skill/Tech seen in New Avengers #1. He also doesn't have *any* vibranium nor does he use the energy daggers anymore...hasn't for years now. Maybe the stuff from A Plus X #3. In NA #1 he was pretty powerful, that Black Swan lady I suppose to be pretty powerful and he laid her tail out. He also seem to have a explosive-energy punch or something.

#18 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2774 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a close fight,,,I shall return

#19 Posted by robertloucksjr (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Luke/Daredevil/Bucky. Cage is too hard to put down and has the best stopping power. Using the other two to stop him from being flanked and maneuver others into his grasp would be a hard tactic to beat. Bucky also has the best long distance weapon being the gun.

#20 Posted by SexualLobster (995 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm thinking team one, Black Panther's equipment is the big factor IMO. Vibranium can damage Luke Cage, his suit would make him durable enough to take hits from Luke.

He's also got stealth and fighting ability on Bucky, and vibranium waves should be able to mess (edited) with Daredevil.

Beast I think can contend with Luke Cage at least for a while.

Beast should be able to get a slight majority over DD IMO.

Bucky.. I'd say because of his weapons would beat him.. maybe, I'm not sure.

Cap should beat Bucky,

cap should be able to hang with Luke,

and DD could go either way, but Cap's knowledge of DD should help him to win

#21 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

New Avengers. Luke Cage is MVP.

#22 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

They only way New Avengers has a chance is to totally ignore T'challa's current status, remove this tech water him down' basically handicap the hell out of him. Then give him things he doesn't use. First, he has super speed. Look the scan from New Avengers #1 just after Kimo was killed. He attacked one of the attackers, with another looking on and then attacked the second before he could move or react then rips him apart with his bare hands. Hickman confirmed he indeed has super speed. Second, he has instant teleportation, and shielding. Third, skill wise Bucky and Daredevil can't match up. While you could make arguement before, with the knowledge of 10,000 years of his black panther ancestors in H2H he would have the edge. Next, Beast is also evolved and all the comes with that. I would have Beast take on Cage, Cap take on DD and T'challa take on Bucky. After Bucky is taken out, T'challa and Beast Double Luke Cage while Cap handles DD.

#23 Posted by Pyrogram (34440 posts) - - Show Bio

Black panther seals the victory

#24 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa said:

They only way New Avengers has a chance is to totally ignore T'challa's current status, remove this tech water him down' basically handicap the hell out of him. Then give him things he doesn't use. First, he has super speed. Look the scan from New Avengers #1 just after Kimo was killed. He attacked one of the attackers, with another looking on and then attacked the second before he could move or react then rips him apart with his bare hands. Hickman confirmed he indeed has super speed. Second, he has instant teleportation, and shielding. Third, skill wise Bucky and Daredevil can't match up. While you could make arguement before, with the knowledge of 10,000 years of his black panther ancestors in H2H he would have the edge. Next, Beast is also evolved and all the comes with that. I would have Beast take on Cage, Cap take on DD and T'challa take on Bucky. After Bucky is taken out, T'challa and Beast Double Luke Cage while Cap handles DD.

The reason I did nerf black panther is because he doesn't need the stuff he currently has, and if I left him with his current gear this would be one sided. All though can I see confirmation from Hickmin he has super speed? Its not that I don't believe you I just really want to see confirmation current black panther is super human.

#25 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@SexualLobster said:

I'm thinking team one, Black Panther's equipment is the big factor IMO. Vibranium can damage Luke Cage, his suit would make him durable enough to take hits from Luke.

He's also got stealth and fighting ability on Bucky, and vibranium waves should be able to mess (edited) with Daredevil.

Beast I think can contend with Luke Cage at least for a while.

Beast should be able to get a slight majority over DD IMO.

Bucky.. I'd say because of his weapons would beat him.. maybe, I'm not sure.

Cap should beat Bucky,

cap should be able to hang with Luke,

and DD could go either way, but Cap's knowledge of DD should help him to win

Keep in mind he only has energy daggers in this scenario.

#26 Posted by Vance Astro (91071 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't a close fight. The New Illuminati wins. Just on their powers alone they are superior. Cage is the only one of the New Avengers that had decent strength and durability and if he happens to beat Beast, he's going to have to fight T'Challa and Cap because Bucky & and Daredevil aren't going to get it done. The only way they have a chance if is Cage or another of the New Avengers beats Beast quickly and easily and I don't see that happening.

Moderator Online
#27 Posted by Ddecourt (796 posts) - - Show Bio

There alot of scenarios that can happen in this fight.

Though I think in the end the Illuminati comes out on top. But it will not be easy imo.

#28 Edited by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Umbraa said:

They only way New Avengers has a chance is to totally ignore T'challa's current status, remove this tech water him down' basically handicap the hell out of him. Then give him things he doesn't use. First, he has super speed. Look the scan from New Avengers #1 just after Kimo was killed. He attacked one of the attackers, with another looking on and then attacked the second before he could move or react then rips him apart with his bare hands. Hickman confirmed he indeed has super speed. Second, he has instant teleportation, and shielding. Third, skill wise Bucky and Daredevil can't match up. While you could make arguement before, with the knowledge of 10,000 years of his black panther ancestors in H2H he would have the edge. Next, Beast is also evolved and all the comes with that. I would have Beast take on Cage, Cap take on DD and T'challa take on Bucky. After Bucky is taken out, T'challa and Beast Double Luke Cage while Cap handles DD.

The reason I did nerf black panther is because he doesn't need the stuff he currently has, and if I left him with his current gear this would be one sided. All though can I see confirmation from Hickmin he has super speed? Its not that I don't believe you I just really want to see confirmation current black panther is super human.

Yeah, but the nerf is pretty deep imho.

Hickman said this on his Formspring.

1. He's already super fast, it was a short range teleporter. 2. He basically ripped the dude in half. 3. A planet.

I don't get why folks are still holding on to him not being so, when everything and everyone is saying otherwise. But the scan in New Avengers #1 he is clearly showing he's super fast.

Look at the second panel; he attacks the first black ops soldier, with the second operator looking at him kill the first. T'challa then moves so fast that the second operator (who was looking on mind you) could not react or even move before T'challa tears him in half. The only one that could give Illuminati Black Panther a problem is Luke Cage. But the daggers is something that Luke has zero defense against and he's not fast enough. So the nerf is pointless imho.

Then like I said Beat would be going against Cage, Beast is fast, and too agile. He could keep out of his way and keep him occupied until Cap and Panther finish off Winter Soldier and DD.

#29 Posted by daredevil21134 (10655 posts) - - Show Bio

cool fight

#30 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

cool fight

Thanks.

#31 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa: That really doesn't prove anything. He has high speed, but to consider it super I don't know. He's on par with Captain America definitely in terms of speed. Or else I would say Captain America has super speed because of this.

I guess we can both agree their speeds are above the peak of man, but they're not as fast as Spider-man.

#32 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Fine, but the writer says he had super speed. You can accept that fact or not. It's not peak speed. He was that before. There is nothing to say he's on par with Cap now. It's a *fact* that he was upgraded in Fantastic Four #608. That scan doesn't look the same at all IMHO. Again, he was attacking the first operator and killed him, the shirtless operator was looking and in the next instant T'challa was on him, before he could react or move, then ripping him in half. This is per Hickman. He's super fast, and who knows how fast he is now, I don't think you can say he's not anything or not as fast as anyone. We have two things, the writer saying he's super fast and the scan showing him moving too fast for a foe yards away to react. So we will have to agree to disagree. I'll go with what the person writing the books says.

#33 Posted by mk111 (3139 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with Team 1.

#34 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Note, he said nothing at all about "high speed" or "peak speed" he said he was. *super fast* so you will probably get a lot more and something showing it a lot more clear later on.

#35 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa said:

Fine, but the writer says he had super speed. You can accept that fact or not. It's not peak speed. He was that before. There is nothing to say he's on par with Cap now. It's a *fact* that he was upgraded in Fantastic Four #608. That scan doesn't look the same at all IMHO. Again, he was attacking the first operator and killed him, the shirtless operator was looking and in the next instant T'challa was on him, before he could react or move, then ripping him in half. This is per Hickman. He's super fast, and who knows how fast he is now, I don't think you can say he's not anything or not as fast as anyone. We have two things, the writer saying he's super fast and the scan showing him moving too fast for a foe yards away to react. So we will have to agree to disagree. I'll go with what the person writing the books says.

I'll agree that BP is fast. But are you saying he is faster than Captain America? Captain America can sprint at 60MPH, I don't see how he couldn't be able to perform the exact same feat as T'Chala there.

#36 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is the thing. He's no longer peak human (classic) Panther we saw during Liss run. He's no longer powered by the HSH, Shuri is (which is above peak human according to Brvoort). He's beyond what he was before, King of the Dead, Bast directly powered Black Panther by way of 10,000 years of his ancestors. Sure maybe Cap could do something similar, if the artist chose to draw the scene that way...but I'm trying to explain how that scene reads with to me with Hickman view of what happend. Hickman said he was super fast, not just he's fast or peak fast, but super fast. He was moving faster then that guy could react or move from a good distance away and moved to his direction in super fast way and tore him in half. The operator didn't have enough time to move or react at all and he was watching his comrad be killed, before T'challa was killing him. Then he did the same to Black Swan who could not react either. He also knocked out the Black Swan who is suppose to be extemely powerful (well have to wait and see). >>>My point is using Cap is who he was on par with before his new status is off. He has instant teleportion and a unknown degree of Superspeed. My question is does Cap have super speed? Cap is peak human, in AvX vs. they showed his 40 time...so who knows if the 60 miles per holds up currently with Marvel? You will have to show me something where Cap is instantly killing a guy with another enemies looking on at a distance and that enemy being powerless to react or move...he had a gun! and these are some AU cyborgs or something.

#37 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

One more thing, he has cloaking, but his cousin was sniped with they were cloaked. The AU guys had means negate his tech. His force field broke and their goggles could see them through cloaking. So you will have to explain why the AU character did not react to him as he ran attacked them. it clear Black Swan could not see him coming when he clocked her...I rack it up as artistic style.

#38 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa: How fast is Black Panther now is yet to be seen. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'll believe it when I see it. Captain America run at 60 MPH, his author who handled him for a decade confirms it in his book and in an interview, that holds up more than AvX cross over team of sloppy writers.

The scan where he goes from one panel to another is impressive to me but not impressive enough for me to rate him a 3 or 4 out of 7 according to marvel handbooks, that's my point.

Cap has lots of speed feats:

Now you're going to say "But BP managed to punch the other guy before he could react, in all your scans the guys got a chance to fire their gun at Cap wheres BP's feat the guy didn't get to fire his gun." Yes this is true but there's a difference, Black Panther did a stealth attack and caught them by surprise, that's a big factor there.

Now with all these speed feats, he's considered far above the olympic man. I guess you can say he also has super human speed since no normal human can perform these feats. But I feel like the way you described Black Panther's speed "super human" as an exaggeration, it sounded like you were putting it far above everyone else speed here. I'll wait for more proof to see how much faster BP has gotten and if it's at Spider-man level.

#39 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa said:

One more thing, he has cloaking, but his cousin was sniped with they were cloaked. The AU guys had means negate his tech. His force field broke and their goggles could see them through cloaking. So you will have to explain why the AU character did not react to him as he ran attacked them. it clear Black Swan could not see him coming when he clocked her...I rack it up as artistic style.

Black Panther sure didn't look cloaked to me when that snipe happened. The whole part of the cloaking was so he could sneak up on his next foe and he punched her in the face.

#40 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm aware of all of those scan. In the one with the bullet dodging didn't he explain that he "sees faster"?Bru never said that Steve was super fast, he did say that he was beyond a trained hero, the best a human could be..but not super... while Hickman is saying that T'challa IS super fast. Yes, T'challa and Kimo *were* cloaked, after the other two makers were killed and he teleported Kimo away! The operators turned on there infrared and sniped him dead. So you can't say that he was cloaked. Hickman said he is super fast when talking about that fight sequence. In that fight sequence it appears that no one could react. He could bullet dodge because the guy could not react fast enough to shoot. That's why I said look at Eptings drawing feats with Cap moving fast...I can't find anything where he is drawn that way. Not with people standing still, from a *distance* not being able to move or react... Look he killed the Fist operator with a single shot, tore the second apart then knocked Black Swam out..non could react seamingly fast enough. Excuse the non-paragraphs...I'm not on my PC.

#41 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Just a note. I'm not just saying it. But Jonathan Hickman writer of NA#1 says that Panther is super fast. Again, he's not Flash fast or Quicksliver fast, but he very well could be in the Spideman range,not in terms of agility..but foot and combat speed..probably yeah...he's not Olympic or peek that's for sure. Nor did he say that he was cloaked..he said super fast.

#42 Posted by windcaster (227 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa: When Hickman said "super fast" I think he was saying that his peak human speed was always that fast. I even think on CBR someone said T'challa was the fastest peak human without being considered super human like Quicksilver or Makkari. I also think that Hickman said that T'challa is still physically the same as before his upgrade.

#43 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@windcaster, nah bro he just said he was already super fast. When he questioner asked about it being teleportation and some hyper speed. He never said anything about Peak human. T'challa isn't peak human, per Brevoort who said he was above peak human. Liss and Maberry borh said the same. He wss Peak Human during Liss run without the herb. Next, I was one of the original posters on CBR saying that. Another poster (Taozen) and myself have books seen the interview by Jack Kirby saying he meant for T'challa to be the fastest human superhero. As for what Hickman said, that the upgrade focus more on the gained knowledge, rather the physically, he never said he was he same.

#44 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa: @windcaster:

If you guys are interested i asked Hickmin on formspring if current black panther is super human and he said that he is super human after his upgrade.

Figured I would tell you guys encase you were interested.

#45 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That's awesome, thank you. That's also very awesome of Hickmin. I hope he releases an updated "bio" for Black Panther was well.

#46 Posted by jashro44 (19228 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@jashro44: That's awesome, thank you. That's also very awesome of Hickmin. I hope he releases an updated "bio" for Black Panther was well.

Yea I would like to know how far he has been upgraded. I am sure its not much but you never know.

#47 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Saw that, thanks bro! And he also has active cloaking/invisibility like the Hatut Zeraze! Apparently, the operators he was taking out are the Reavers of X-men fame. Again thanks for asking the question. My guess and this is conjecture on my part...is that he would be similar to another character he wrote...Gorgan. He was one shot-killing Cyborg Reavers and knocked the Black Swan who I think is going to be insanely powerful out.

#48 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa said:

I'm aware of all of those scan. In the one with the bullet dodging didn't he explain that he "sees faster"?Bru never said that Steve was super fast, he did say that he was beyond a trained hero, the best a human could be..but not super... while Hickman is saying that T'challa IS super fast. Yes, T'challa and Kimo *were* cloaked, after the other two makers were killed and he teleported Kimo away! The operators turned on there infrared and sniped him dead. So you can't say that he was cloaked. Hickman said he is super fast when talking about that fight sequence. In that fight sequence it appears that no one could react. He could bullet dodge because the guy could not react fast enough to shoot. That's why I said look at Eptings drawing feats with Cap moving fast...I can't find anything where he is drawn that way. Not with people standing still, from a *distance* not being able to move or react... Look he killed the Fist operator with a single shot, tore the second apart then knocked Black Swam out..non could react seamingly fast enough. Excuse the non-paragraphs...I'm not on my PC.

Brubaker did say Steve is fast. He says Steve can run at 60 MPH, that's %150 faster than the fastest current sprinter in the world. And he can do it for 5 miles long or even longer. He could possibly run even faster and even longer since he was carrying Bucky who was 140 lbs at the time while doing the feat.

Steve Epting's drawing style probably just changed. He drew speed Spitfire in the Captain America's run, and we know she is a marvel speedster. he didn't have to draw her like BP doing that feat to represent "speed."

My problem isn't believing BP is fast, I just don't understand how that particular scan you keep talking about puts him above Captain America or even Wolverine. The scan looks like something common a peak street leveler would do.

#49 Posted by windcaster (227 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Thanks man, but I'm following him on formspring too.

#50 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Like I said artist draw differently. I collected Bru and Eptings run, so That is why I said use that comparison. Either way he's superhuman like I said! He has super-speed, he's super-fast and Hickman said it about that scan...and to be fair it's only been one issue so there is more to come. He's not Quicksilver fast... but Spiderman or Gorgan level is what I would put my money on. As for Bru, trust I know what he said. But he never said Cap was superhuman, he said he was *not* super like spiderman or superman, but best a human could ever be..He never said he was super fast. He did say that he's beyond anything someone who is just trained like Batman or Daredevil could ever attain and i agree with that part of you post, butI never implied that he said he was not fast. I just said he never said he was super fast. Point is, T'challa isnt peak human or peak fast. The guys he was one shot-kills were cyborgs (Reavers) and he said he's way faster. So well just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure there will be clearer examples in the future. Good debate bro.