New-52 Batman vs Punisher

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@darkhunter89:

The suit has a finite resistance against damage like every kevlar suit.

Even it is tripled it don't protect against an AK-47.

@grim187: You proved yourself that the batsuit only protects against 9 mm rounds.

@realitywarper: Did any of the gunman state that they were using 9mm? Or did you calculate that it was 9mm from the comics LMFAO.

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@realitywarper said:

@darkhunter89:

The suit has a finite resistance against damage like every kevlar suit.

Even it is tripled it don't protect against an AK-47.

@grim187: You proved yourself that the batsuit only protects against 9 mm rounds.

Batman throws a batarang and Punisher runs in fear of the flying sharp object.

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@patrat18 said:

@jashro44: Sooo It was bad writing? Cuz...

What is that meant to show? Frank wasn't trying to shoot Peter, he was trying to shoot a string in the distance so he could drop a sign on a passing car (and he did, despite a bloodlusted Peter trying to kill him).

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Batman wins. Better equipment and he would basisaly dodge everything Punisher has as a firearm, I already proved that Batman's durability would tank any types of explosions Punisher has. His suit bounces off bullets in Superman style. Heck, he's even deflected bullets with his arms. If it gets close to a H2H, then the winner would be kinda obvious...

Unless, Punisher doesn't have prep and Bruce not, he won't win.p

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@captain_batman_ftw: Bruce wouldn't dodge everything Frank fires at him. Frank's a good enough shot to tag Batman, for certain. The bullets just wouldn't do anything because of the armor.

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@realitywarper: What makes you think Batman wears kevlar in the new 52 when he bounces off bullets with his suit? Even if Bruce wears kevlar, it's most likely kevlar 49 (kevlar 49 from what I have researched is as hard as steel).

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@realitywarper: Batman can still throw a magnet to make Punisher's entire arsenal useless.

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#260  Edited By jashro44

@patrat18 said:

@jashro44: Sooo It was bad writing? Cuz...

I would say in a battle forum spider-man should beat punisher every time due to his ability to make web shields, tag punisher with webbing and his avoidance capability but I wont say its impossible to tag him.

Its like when deathstroke or captain cold tags the flash. There is some consistency in it so I don't think it can be dismissed as PIS per say but in a battle forum we know Wally wouldn't get touched.

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#261  Edited By RealityWarper

@grim187 said:

@thebourneposter said:

@realitywarper: Oh, i get it, you're a troll.

THIS

And you both are flagged.

@vance_astro

@realitywarper: Batman can still throw a magnet to make Punisher's entire arsenal useless.

Like this ?

No Caption Provided

@realitywarper: What makes you think Batman wears kevlar in the new 52 when he bounces off bullets with his suit? Even if Bruce wears kevlar, it's most likely kevlar 49 (kevlar 49 from what I have researched is as hard as steel).

If you have more precisions about the Batsuit then put them on the field nut as we can see on the scans he is touched by 9 mm round.

Bullets can bounce on wood too.

it's not just a question of how harder the matérial is.

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#262 vance_astro  Moderator
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Frank

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Haha Batman still wins.

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#265  Edited By thecoolest
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Batman quite handily.

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@i_like_swords: Dodgin bullets after they are fired won't help you tag the opponent who can do that even if you have Deadshot level aim with firearms. Batman would dodge everything like he mostly does.

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@vance_astro: I wasn't saying it as a insult. from his response, I honestly thinking that he wasn't being serious and just wanted a rise.

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@i_like_swords: Dodgin bullets after they are fired won't help you tag the opponent who can do that even if you have Deadshot level aim with firearms.

...

I know that being able to dodge bullets after they are fired doesn't help with marksmanship. What helps with marksmanship is.. being accurate. And Punisher is very accurate.

Batman would dodge everything like he mostly does.

Not really. Frank has tagged faster people than Batman on occasion at range and up close. To say Frank is incapable of even hitting Batman is preposterous. Not that any of this matters because of how poorly set up this match is.

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@i_like_swords: You just said that having good marksmanship won't help you hit someone who dodges bullets after they are fired, but you can hit him/her because you are accurate? Does that make sense?

I'm not doubting Punisher's accuracy, it doesn't matter if he has tagged people faster than Batman either because Batman has dodged bullets after they are fired and he has even deflected them which won't make Punisher hit Batman with bullets.

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@captain_batman_ftw:

You just said that having good marksmanship won't help you hit someone who dodges bullets after they are fired

No I didn't...

but you can hit him/her because you are accurate? Does that make sense?

Yes, being able to hit shoot someone with bullets because you are accurate makes sense.

I'm not doubting Punisher's accuracy, it doesn't matter if he has tagged people faster than Batman either because Batman has dodged bullets after they are fired and he has even deflected them which won't make Punisher hit Batman with bullets.

Spider-Man has dodged sniper rifle rounds after they're fired. Daredevil has deflected sniper rifle rounds with his billy clubs. Wolverine is a bullet timer who has deflected bullets with his claws, and Burnout is a speedster who travels at mach 2. Frank has shot all of them, and others, so I doubt Batman's avoidance capabilities matter much. Marksmanship is a super power in it's own right.

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#273  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

@grim187 said:

@vance_astro: I wasn't saying it as a insult. from his response, I honestly thinking that he wasn't being serious and just wanted a rise.

So then ignore him. Calling him a troll doesn't really add anything to the thread.

@i_like_swords said:

I'm not doubting Punisher's accuracy, it doesn't matter if he has tagged people faster than Batman either because Batman has dodged bullets after they are fired and he has even deflected them which won't make Punisher hit Batman with bullets.

Spider-Man has dodged sniper rifle rounds after they're fired. Daredevil has deflected sniper rifle rounds with his billy clubs. Wolverine is a bullet timer who has deflected bullets with his claws, and Burnout is a speedster who travels at mach 2. Frank has shot all of them, and others, so I doubt Batman's avoidance capabilities matter much. Marksmanship is a super power in it's own right.

He's also more consistently been easily dodged by both Spider-Man & Daredevil. Out of all of Daredevil's encounters with Punisher he's had more success without guns than he has with them.

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@i_like_swords said:

I'm not doubting Punisher's accuracy, it doesn't matter if he has tagged people faster than Batman either because Batman has dodged bullets after they are fired and he has even deflected them which won't make Punisher hit Batman with bullets.

Spider-Man has dodged sniper rifle rounds after they're fired. Daredevil has deflected sniper rifle rounds with his billy clubs. Wolverine is a bullet timer who has deflected bullets with his claws, and Burnout is a speedster who travels at mach 2. Frank has shot all of them, and others, so I doubt Batman's avoidance capabilities matter much. Marksmanship is a super power in it's own right.

He's also more consistently been easily dodged by bother Spider-Man & Daredevil. Out of all of Daredevil's encounters with Punisher he's had more success without guns than he has with them.

Like when? I have scans for six of Frank's fights with Daredevil, most of them being H2H fights. Daredevil usually can dodge Frank's bullets but there is one instance I know of in CQC where Frank tags him with a plastic bullet. But some of the times he's dodged Frank's shots have been circumstantial, i.e Daredevil ambushing him.

What are you referring to when you say Spider-Man more consistently dodges his bullets?

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#276  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

@i_like_swords said:

Like when? I have scans for six of Frank's fights with Daredevil, most of them being H2H fights. Daredevil usually can dodge Frank's bullets but there is one instance I know of in CQC where Frank tags him with a plastic bullet. But some of the times he's dodged Frank's shots have been circumstantial, i.e Daredevil ambushing him.

What are you referring to when you say Spider-Man more consistently dodges his bullets?

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@i_like_swords: You just splitted my sentence in half. Anyways, this is what you said which I repeated.

I know that being able to dodge bullets after they are fired doesn't help with marksmanship. What helps with marksmanship is.. being accurate. And Punisher is very accurate.

Doesn't matter who he has tagged or what not, you're using ABC logic which won't make your case any better. Dodging bullets after they are fired (towards Batman) is enough to say that he'll dodge Frank's.

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@captain_batman_ftw:

Listing bullet timers Punisher has shot to justify him shooting a bullet timer doesn't make my case any better? Sweet.

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#280 vance_astro  Moderator

@i_like_swords said:

@vance_astro: Yup, I know of that instance.

I have more scans of Daredevil dodging gunfire from The Punisher, I just have to find them, though. I don't remember any instance where they fought and Punisher hit Daredevil with a bullet or projectile specifically because he's capable. There was an old instance where Daredevil was dodging but saying that Frank was missing on purpose because he's not willing to kill him, and another like it where Daredevil states that Frank is missing on purpose & also one where he shot Daredevil in the stomach but it wasn't because he was INCAPABLE of dodging but because he was stunned by punch he suffered from the Punisher prior to that. In any event a response where you mention instances where Daredevil has deflected bullets I don't think marksmanship actually has anything to do with whether the Punisher could shot Daredevil or Batman who is physically faster than Daredevil for that matter as well as Spider-Man who not only has precognition but is faster than both. While I agree that Marksmanship is a power in it's own right the best Marksman can't control the projectile when it leaves the gun. If it's been proven that these characters this ability is being tested against have the ability to calculate the trajectory of bullets that have already been fired and have the speed & reaction time decide how to handle it, The Punisher is going to need more than good aim.

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@vance_astro:

I have more scans of Daredevil dodging gunfire from The Punisher, I just have to find them, though.

Alright.

I don't remember any instance where they fought and Punisher hit Daredevil with a bullet or projectile specifically because he's capable. There was an old instance where Daredevil was dodging but saying that Frank was missing on purpose because he's not willing to kill him, and another like it where Daredevil states that Frank is missing on purpose & also one where he shot Daredevil in the stomach but it wasn't because he was INCAPABLE of dodging but because he was stunned by punch he suffered from the Punisher prior to that.

I know of these, and I agree Frank doesn't have the best track record against Daredevil when it comes to tagging him at range. But he does have a good track record against Spider-Man and some other characters. When I referenced Daredevil being shot in the stomach I meant that Frank could replicate this in a close-range environment with Batman, not necessarily at distance. Overall Frank actually has a better track record up close against street levellers than at distance, but that's not to say he doesn't have good distance feats, or that they're inconsistent, because they aren't.

In any event a response where you mention instances where Daredevil has deflected bullets I don't think marksmanship actually has anything to do with whether the Punisher could shot Daredevil or Batman who is physically faster than Daredevil for that matter as well as Spider-Man who not only has precognition but is faster than both. While I agree that Marksmanship is a power in it's own right the best Marksman can't control the projectile when it leaves the gun. If it's been proven that these characters this ability is being tested against have the ability to calculate the trajectory of bullets that have already been fired and have the speed & reaction time decide how to handle it, The Punisher is going to need more than good aim.

Logically what you're saying is correct, but it's not actually the case in comics. It's established that capable marksman can have a better time tagging agile opponents than any mook with a gun, because of their aim. For instance, Deadshot and Punisher both have feats of tagging speedsters with bullets, despite the fact the speedsters themselves are travelling faster than the bullets being fired, because Punisher/Deadshot can anticipate their movements and shoot where they're going to be. It's similar to the old instance of Punisher shooting Spider-Man and shooting his webshooters off - he had studied his movement patterns beforehand and was able to anticipate his movements. Wolverine is a pretty solid bullet timer who has deflected bullets and ran through hails of them without getting hit, and he's even dodged a volley from Deadpool, but Frank managed to tag him even though Wolverine was attempting to dodge him. Frank had a shotgun in this instance so he had an easier time, but still to keep track of Logan's movements and keep aim on him is impressive. And this was under a writer who was trying to get back at Garth Ennis for lowballing Wolverine, by writing up a realistic scenario between Wolvie and Punisher.

Another prime example is Bullseye. He doesn't even use guns but he can still tag fast street levellers on occasion by using unorthodox ricochets and the like. I believe he's done this to Matt and Elektra on occasion although I'm not sure of the context, and during his time as Hawkeye during Dark Reign he used a ricochet to put an arrow through Deadpool's brain, and later on he forced Deadpool to run into cover from his arrows. Deadpool then decided to dawn a suit of armor made out of meat just to tank the arrows rather than dodge them, and this was Deadpool in his own series written under Daniel Way, who has given Wade some seriously good showings, like dodging Cyclops, Domino and Surge simultaneously for fun. Wade has also dodged a bullet after it was fired by tilting his head, so that kind of goes to show that a good marksman with a bow can transcend a bullet even after it's fired.

My main point is that while guys like Spider-Man can see bullets in slow motion and dodge them easily, or guys like Daredevil and Wolverine can anticipate bullets before they're fired due to their senses, or dodge them after they're fired due to their speed, they can still be tagged from time to time by marksman who are smart with their shots. And likewise these marksmen aren't infallible either and can be dodged from time to time. Anything can happen on any given day, really.

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#284  Edited By RealityWarper

@i_like_swords:

I agree.
And characters like Daredevil don't die everytime they meet Franck because they are not replaceable.
Just look in Dark Reign how many Superhumans are killed by Franck with the proper gear.
Here The Punisher has enough tools for manhunt.
Batman is still a man, even he is really powerful.

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@grim187 said:

@realitywarper said:

@darkhunter89:

The suit has a finite resistance against damage like every kevlar suit.

Even it is tripled it don't protect against an AK-47.

@grim187: You proved yourself that the batsuit only protects against 9 mm rounds.

@realitywarper: Did any of the gunman state that they were using 9mm? Or did you calculate that it was 9mm from the comics LMFAO.

I carried a Sig-sauer SP2022 during 4 years.
I know what I am talking about. :)

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sp2022.aspx

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#287  Edited By Grim187

@realitywarper: Your off speculating and trying to put real world logic in to comics. I see no point arguing with you, your rebuttals have too many fallacies that I do not have the patience to correct. Saying that you know what guns were used in the comics without the comic implying so is pure speculation which equates to absolutely nothing for the sake of your argument. If your logic applied here, then I could say "Batman's armor is a CIA armor that was created to withstand anything on earth. I've been a CIA conspiracy expert for 4 yrs, I know what I'm talking about". Do you see that flaw in your logic/argument? Its completely absurd. I recant my apology for cosigning bourneposter lmfao.

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#289  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

@i_like_swords said:

I know of these, and I agree Frank doesn't have the best track record against Daredevil when it comes to tagging him at range. But he does have a good track record against Spider-Man and some other characters. When I referenced Daredevil being shot in the stomach I meant that Frank could replicate this in a close-range environment with Batman, not necessarily at distance. Overall Frank actually has a better track record up close against street levelers than at distance, but that's not to say he doesn't have good distance feats, or that they're inconsistent, because they aren't.

I can actually only think of one instance where Frank looked good against Spider-Man with a gun. Not sure the issue number but I remember Frank hitting Spider-Man's web shooters and I think he shot Spider-Man in the stomach as well. Maybe you could fill me in on some other instances you're thinking of. Punisher does have better luck in close quarters but I think a situation of that nature give Batman a better chance to remove the gun from the equation.

Logically what you're saying is correct, but it's not actually the case in comics. It's established that capable marksman can have a better time tagging agile opponents than any mook with a gun, because of their aim. For instance, Deadshot and Punisher both have feats of tagging speedsters with bullets, despite the fact the speedsters themselves are travelling faster than the bullets being fired, because Punisher/Deadshot can anticipate their movements and shoot where they're going to be. It's similar to the old instance of Punisher shooting Spider-Man and shooting his webshooters off - he had studied his movement patterns beforehand and was able to anticipate his movements. Wolverine is a pretty solid bullet timer who has deflected bullets and ran through hails of them without getting hit, and he's even dodged a volley from Deadpool, but Frank managed to tag him even though Wolverine was attempting to dodge him. Frank had a shotgun in this instance so he had an easier time, but still to keep track of Logan's movements and keep aim on him is impressive. And this was under a writer who was trying to get back at Garth Ennis for lowballing Wolverine, by writing up a realistic scenario between Wolvie and Punisher.

I understand that characters like Deadshot & the Punisher are capable of shooting characters by way of anticipation but I'm not sure the evidence will show that's why he's been able to shoot characters like Wolverine. I believe that Punisher used something like that on Spider-Man in the instance I was talking about above, I vaguely remember it, I think there was also some type of explanation for how Punisher could shoot Spider-Man by tricking his Spider-sense and making him react incorrectly and then taking his shot or something to that effect. I'm not too sure, but i've never read another instance of Spider-Man where anything like that was brought up.

@i_like_swords said:

Another prime example is Bullseye. He doesn't even use guns but he can still tag fast street levellers on occasion by using unorthodox ricochets and the like. I believe he's done this to Matt and Elektra on occasion although I'm not sure of the context, and during his time as Hawkeye during Dark Reign he used a ricochet to put an arrow through Deadpool's brain, and later on he forced Deadpool to run into cover from his arrows. Deadpool then decided to dawn a suit of armor made out of meat just to tank the arrows rather than dodge them, and this was Deadpool in his own series written under Daniel Way, who has given Wade some seriously good showings, like dodging Cyclops, Domino and Surge simultaneously for fun. Wade has also dodged a bullet after it was fired by tilting his head, so that kind of goes to show that a good marksman with a bow can transcend a bullet even after it's fired.

My main point is that while guys like Spider-Man can see bullets in slow motion and dodge them easily, or guys like Daredevil and Wolverine can anticipate bullets before they're fired due to their senses, or dodge them after they're fired due to their speed, they can still be tagged from time to time by marksman who are smart with their shots. And likewise these marksmen aren't infallible either and can be dodged from time to time. Anything can happen on any given day, really.

I think Bullseye is a better marksman than Punisher and for him his marksmanship abilities are ACTUALLY his superpowers. He could have honestly killed Daredevil and also killed Elektra again by now but often times he purposely misses and toys with them which is why he ended up losing to Elektra in Dark Reign. He could have easily just shot her in the face. You make a good point about "unorthodox ricochets" and i've seen them from Bullseye with the use of many objects but i've never actually seen Punisher used that type of technique in any instance I recall. I'm not that well versed on the Punisher, many of the instances I know of involving him and these characters come from their books and not his. Has the Punisher actually used a technique like that?

I understand your main point but maybe I took your original post out of context. I wouldn't say that Punisher is completely incapable of shooting characters like Daredevil, Wolverine, or Spider-Man but I would assume that it would have to be situational because of their speed, reaction time, skill feats. There would have to be some type of tactic that makes them vulnerable to this type of attack rather than Punisher simply just being a good marksman.

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@i_like_swords said:

Like when? I have scans for six of Frank's fights with Daredevil, most of them being H2H fights. Daredevil usually can dodge Frank's bullets but there is one instance I know of in CQC where Frank tags him with a plastic bullet. But some of the times he's dodged Frank's shots have been circumstantial, i.e Daredevil ambushing him.

What are you referring to when you say Spider-Man more consistently dodges his bullets?

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#291  Edited By RealityWarper

@grim187 said:

@realitywarper: Your off speculating and trying to put real world logic in to comics. I see no point arguing with you, your rebuttals have too many fallacies that I do not have the patience to correct. Saying that you know what guns were used in the comics without the comic implying so is pure speculation which equates to absolutely nothing for the sake of your argument. If your logic applied here, then I could say "Batman's armor is a CIA armor that was created to withstand anything on earth. I've been a CIA conspiracy expert for 4 yrs, I know what I'm talking about". Do you see that flaw in your logic/argument? Its completely absurd. I recant my apology for cosigning bourneposter lmfao.

The point in putting things that appear reals in comic books is to give a reference to the reader how things are supposed to works in the comics.
If the writer wanted Batman to have something more durable than the Kevlar he would have use other materails to explain why and how the armor is more durable.
Only your claim is full of flaws bro. ^^

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jashro44

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Just in regards to Franks abilities to tag spider-man; keep in mind he has studied his moves. I assume this helps.

All though tagging spider-man is impressive regardless.

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vance_astro

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#293 vance_astro  Moderator

@jashro44 said:

Just in regards to Franks abilities to tag spider-man; keep in mind he has studied his moves. I assume this helps.

All though tagging spider-man is impressive regardless.

It's also something Frank shouldn't be able to do without a plot device.

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Grim187

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@frozen Heard you was the guy to go to for DC knowledge. Bless me with your DC Omnipotence :P

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#296 frozen  Moderator

@grim187 said:

@frozen Heard you was the guy to go to for DC knowledge. Bless me with your DC Omnipotence :P

Well, to put it frankly (lol); Batman definitely takes the solid majority under these stipulations. Morals are off and the distance between Batman and Punisher is short, thus meaning Batman should not have too much of a problem closing the distance and employing his superior physicals and skill.

I haven't read all of the pages thoroughly so I do not know if this has been mentioned but the OP stipulated that this takes place in a dark area in Gotham, if Punisher doesn't have any infa-red or thermal technology, then Batman's stealth is a serious factor. I don't favor Frank's chances against a morals-off Batman who can employ stealth.

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@frozen said:

@grim187 said:

@frozen Heard you was the guy to go to for DC knowledge. Bless me with your DC Omnipotence :P

Well, to put it frankly (lol); Batman definitely takes the solid majority under these stipulations. Morals are off and the distance between Batman and Punisher is short, thus meaning Batman should not have too much of a problem closing the distance and employing his superior physicals and skill.

I haven't read all of the pages thoroughly so I do not know if this has been mentioned but the OP stipulated that this takes place in a dark area in Gotham, if Punisher doesn't have any infa-red or thermal technology, then Batman's stealth is a serious factor. I don't favor Frank's chances against a morals-off Batman who can employ stealth.

@frozen: Thank you almighty one lol :P

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#298  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@realitywarper:

They are at 15 meters from each others in plain sight.

This is illogical.

The fight takes place 15 meters apart in a dark area, within Batman's home city. Emphasis on 'dark area' --- it's not in plain sight. These stipulations are essentially screaming for Batman to use his stealth; in both old and new canon (which is one) Batman's stealth constantly evades super-humans, a stipulation such as the OP's warrants stealth which is more applicable to battle.

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@frozen said:

@realitywarper:

They are at 15 meters from each others in plain sight.

This is illogical.

The fight takes place 15 meters apart in a dark area, within Batman's home city. Emphasis on 'dark area' --- it's not in plain sight. These stipulations are essentially screaming for Batman to use his stealth; in both old and new canon (which is one) Batman's stealth constantly evades super-humans, a stipulation such as the OP's warrants stealth which is more applicable to battle.

Agreed in this way.
I forgot the "dark area".

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Batman wins with ease.