Neo vs Man of Steel

You need to watch more carefully Clark's fight with Nam, Faora and Zod.

Neo seeing bullets in slow-mo and just side step? Then why do this if can just sidestep as you said.

Neo's durability isn't far from Clark's?

Then why stop the bullets if he can tank it then.

Gallery

As per your request. His durability is far less compared to Clark's

And for strength feats, the guys he fought on the SS I just provided are normal thugs, Neo can't even knocked them out in one hit specially that guy he kills last, who keeps coming back after he gets punched.

Clark on the other hand is getting pounded by 2 of his kind and still gets up and continue to fight with nearly the same level of strenght, same goes for his fight with Zod.

While Neo, when he got hit by Smith inside the building, he already spits blood, when he gets slammed on the street from above, he can barely fight.

@afueikawa:

You need to watch more carefully Clark's fight with Nam, Faora and Zod.

I did. Neo still fights faster than the Kryptonians. It's not debatable. Clark is not tagging Neo any time soon.

Neo seeing bullets in slow-mo and just side step? Then why do this if can just sidestep as you said.

Why would he sidestep when he could simply stop them? Neo is still a bullet-timer and Clark is not.

Then why stop the bullets if he can tank it then. As per your request. His durability is far less compared to Clark's

Like I said before, his piercing durability shouldn't matter here, Superman doesn't have any piercing weapons. It's their blunt force durability which matters.

And for strength feats, the guys he fought on the SS I just provided are normal thugs, Neo can't even knocked them out in one hit specially that guy he kills last, who keeps coming back after he gets punched

Different power levels. That Neo was obviously weaker than the one who fought Smith at the end of the trilogy.

Clark on the other hand is getting pounded by 2 of his kind and still gets up and continue to fight with nearly the same level of strength, same goes for his fight with Zod.

He got knocked out from getting combo'd by Nam-Ek and Faora. He was also on the brink of getting knocked out after Zod tossed him through multiple buildings.

While Neo, when he got hit by Smith inside the building, he already spits blood, when he gets slammed on the street from above, he can barely fight.

He was still able to fight after getting hit by this:

And getting slammed, creating a deep crater, deeper than any crater in the MoS movie.

Clark flies 100 times faster than bullets, therefor he stomps.

I came into this topic leaning towards Neo but I was open to exploring MoS' feats.

Here's how I weigh in on the major points:

1. Supes stays in Space and and heat vision snipes Neo: I don't recall any feats for Supes that shows he could tag some one as fast as Neo with his Heat Vision. Staying space is a good tactical option to as it gives him a safe retreat at all times. This might guarantee him a stalemate but I'm still thinking of ways Neo could get at Supes in Space if Neo had to.

2. Neo's reaction speeds. I'm not sure if this has been pointed out: http://youtu.be/MjIPfnp1wB0 - In this video Neo flies faster than an explosion while dodging support beams. He even makes turns at that speed. Normal agents are already bullet timers but Neo is beyond that. Supes might be able to fly at those speeds but Neo can turn on a dime at those speeds.

3. I also think people are underselling Smith. Smith is for purposes of this discussion a reality warper. He's a computer virus. Since the Matrix codes the laws of reality, Smith, as a virus, is deleting, coding and recoding what is essentially reality. That's really the only way Neo's was put down. See below.

4. How has Neo's ressurection in the original movie being addressed? He died and just decided he wasn't dead anymore. The only way he was killed at the end was when Smith, as a virus, consumed him. This gives Neo his own way to stalemate.

That's where I'm at now. Supes can stalemate be hanging out in space. Neo can ressurect and has ridiculous reaction speeds besides. I haven't thought it through completely but I suspect Neo has a better chance at finding a way to get at Supes in space than Supes would have of permanently taking down Neo. In any close combat situation, I'd give Neo a significant advantage.

I've shown he has comparable combat speed.


OI; let me make this very simple for you.

In order for your logic to work; you first have to admit that you think bouncing boy is stronger than Hercules.

Otherwise you have to acknowledge that in the comic book universe; strength is an important factors.

And the more durable thing is just laughable. Neo got slaughtered with one hit.

In order for your logic to work; you first have to admit that you think bouncing boy is stronger than Hercules.

Otherwise you have to acknowledge that in the comic book universe; strength is an important factors.


Oh jesus Christ.
You cannot use a butchered understanding of physics to guage how fast he goes. There is no category of "so fast cars fly behind him". That is a meaningless qualifier because it doesn't mean anything because it doesn't happen. If that's your claim that he's that fast then its meaningless and I can claim he's going 1 km/h because you can't refute that with that feat since there's no speed associated with it. Hence it's useless.

Did you just claim Neo is as skilled as Karate Kid? Who's mastered every single martial arts form in existence? Including Super Karate which is what allows him to fight Kryptonians?
Yeah, we're done here.

comparable to what? You have nothing showing him punching faster than an agent.

OI; let me make this very simple for you. In order for your logic to work; you first have to admit that you think bouncing boy is stronger than Hercules.

Man. you cannot pull a correct example off, can you?

Otherwise you have to acknowledge that in the comic book universe; strength is an important factors.

Do quote me saying striking strength is not important. What matters is neo hits harder.

And the more durable thing is just laughable. Neo got slaughtered with one hit.

After taking several hits faster than clark's, and a hit that caused a multi-block wide shockwave, and he was still not Ko'd.

Not that any of it matters. Clark is never landing a hit on neo, ever. There is no possible way for him to win.

@princearagorn1:

And I don't see any of that working for a long time against hits like the two I showed you.. Specifically, against something like this:

even more specifically,

As powerful as those punches seemed because of the shockwaves, they obviously weren't as powerful as you think they are. Why? They're not really effecting any buildings, cars, not causing shifts in the air or anything in that way. Clark's and Zod's shockwave feat was capable of destroying the face of the skyscraper they were scaling. If MoS' shockwave was as big as the Matrix's, there would be a catastrophic aftermath, just making a battered Metropolis look even worse. Matrix's shockwave to me looks like nothing but visual effects.... I mean after all, they are in a virtual reality, am I right?

this is actually one of the instances where neo's output clearly outclasses clark's:

The speed achieved by clark accelerating from low earth orbit did this:

While speed achieved by neo-smith accelerating from a -much- smaller distance did this:

That's a -massive- gap in power.

A virtual reality where a flower such as a Dandelion can weigh more than an elephant. (If I'm grasping the concept correctly) Tanking being smashed through a street at above average speeds isa great durability feat, I admit, but he was dazed and groggy. It's weird that you're using total real world physics and logic for a virtual reality world where they're bending spoons to their will and flying (because it's not humanly possible in their real world). I say this because the crater they made in the street doesn't necessarily have to mean they used that much power to do so, but simply because they wanted to. But of course, correct me if I'm wrong.

With MoS, it doesn't matter how much destruction they caused. What does matter is that in their real world, they crashed into a building after re-entering the Earth's atmosphere while retaining that speed. Clark nor Zod (the one mainly effected by the impact) were not fazed at all.

Can you actually quantify Neo and Smith's feats other than just showing the aftermath of each?

Uh. I don't see how that's a durability feat, or a feat to be frank, considering the black hole wasn't really putting any serious destructive force on the duo. Otherwise, lois would have been shattered to tiny pieces.

Fair enough. It's still a great speed and endurance feat nonetheless.

I have to disagree here. Psychological factor doesn't play as immense a role in a normal fight as a fight where the strength comes from actually warping reality with beliefs. In almost all of the instances, he was looking hurt, at least:

The psychological factor has a lot to do with Clark not being stunned, though.

Where was Clark looking hurt? fazed at some points, but no signs of any pain. Even if he was, that'd just show he has some insane recovery and healing abilities.

Clark isn't "bad", absolutely speaking.

But he is nowhere in neo's league. He literally runs into buildings while trying to dodge bullets. Nowhere is he able to go for several punches in a second, or even high speed punches like these.

And what is "Neo's league" exactly? You're really talking as if Neo is the Flash reincarnate when in the clips you showed, Smith was making contact with Neo lots of times and nothing showed that his fists were anything more than a regular punch in terms of speed.

Uh. I don't see anything from clark saying his kickoff speed, or kickoff speed of any of the kryptonians is that high. Think of it for a moment. Faora arguably has the highest kickoff speed according to what's shown, and that doesn't look anything remotely near even 1000 kph. A normal, dazed soldier saw, and was nearly able to draw his gun before nam-ek closed, what, 50 feet?

You're talking about Kryptonians that weren't even fully powered. How about these from Clark?

This is how fast neo was, back when he was apparently, 'peak human' in matrix:

(sorry, some problem with youtube. Skip to 3:22)

here

No problem, happens to me too. -_-

It's a good feat, and Clark isn't as fast in combat admittedly. That's not the problem. The problem is Neo's punches just won't keep him down.

This is a normal agent dodging bullets at super speed (this is how the peak human neo sees it)

This is neo, after realizing he's the one, compared to smith:

A combat speed difference that huge already means clark isn't tagging him at all. Still, there is another factor: skill.

Neo downloaded kung fu in a matter of seconds. And he went on at the rate for, at least, ten hours. Not that the gap isn't directly visible in their fights either. Sealing any chances clark ever had of tagging neo.

So overall, the fight boils down to clark trying to hit neo, while neo easily dominating him. Only problem is, clark is a tank. We don't know what it will take to actually KO him when not weakened, but I'm pretty sure that neo should be able to overcome it, sooner, or later, he will.

I honestly don't know what you're showing me, lol.

That one instance of Neo using super speed against Morpheus wasn't shown in his fight against Smith until he swung fast enough to hit raindrops. I said earlier that Clark isn't as fast as Neo is in combat, but to say Clark isn't tagging Neo at all when Smith fought him at human speed is a ludicrous claim, IMO. Clark does have experience with Faora, who blitzed soldiers, dodged and reacted to Clark when he attempted to blitz her and dodged an A-10 bullet (we're not arguing this). Someone faster than him in combat wouldn't be anything new. Dodging bullets pales in comparison to Faora who reacted AT LEAST to Clark, who's kickoff speed is faster than a bullet.

I honestly and personally see this as a long drawn out fight that'd go either way.

@batman242: Actually, matrix is a reality that follows the exact same laws as normal life, as it is a prison for human minds. When they tried it making unrealistic, the system failed (the first matrix). The reason neo can fly and stuff is that he can bend/break the rules of reality as he likes.

What does matter is that in their real world, they crashed into a building after re-entering the Earth's atmosphere while retaining that speed. Clark nor Zod (the one mainly effected by the impact) were not fazed at all.

Consider the strength of the impact. One left a 50+ feet crater in ground, while other barely broke a building. Of course the former hurt more 0_0

Can you actually quantify Neo and Smith's feats other than just showing the aftermath of each?

I'm not sure what quantification you want, exactly. Or what you expect me to do.

Where was Clark looking hurt? fazed at some points, but no signs of any pain. Even if he was, that'd just show he has some insane recovery and healing abilities.

Here are some:

(Not trying to make him look bad here, it's just how the snapshots look:)

Against faora:

After world engine:

Against faora and nam-ek:

You're talking about Kryptonians that weren't even fully powered. How about these from Clark?

I'm not entirely sure where the videos showed punching speed..

I honestly don't know what you're showing me, lol.

Hmm. That was a standard agent casually moving through bullets at super speed. This should clear it better: Skip to about 2:40.

(this is the second time a regular agent does the same thing, so it isn't a single instance either)

And what is "Neo's league" exactly? You're really talking as if Neo is the Flash reincarnate when in the clips you showed, Smith was making contact with Neo lots of times and nothing showed that his fists were anything more than a regular punch in terms of speed.

That one instance of Neo using super speed against Morpheus wasn't shown in his fight against Smith until he swung fast enough to hit raindrops. I said earlier that Clark isn't as fast as Neo is in combat, but to say Clark isn't tagging Neo at all when Smith fought him at human speed is a ludicrous claim, IMO. Clark does have experience with Faora, who blitzed soldiers, dodged and reacted to Clark when he attempted to blitz her and dodged an A-10 bullet (we're not arguing this). Someone faster than him in combat wouldn't be anything new. Dodging bullets pales in comparison to Faora who reacted AT LEAST to Clark, who's kickoff speed is faster than a bullet.

I'm pretty sure the fights were slowed down. Not a guess, they actually were. I think I showed you the morpheus vs neo fight? Look at how the fight looks recorded on a computer (the guys are seeing outside the matrix and remark on their speed.), and look at how we saw it.

In fact, here's how smith (back when he was a regular agent, non-oracle) looks like when not slowed-down:

Skip to 2:40 to see the difference clearly. (damn I hate being not able to use the 'copy url at current time' thing)

There is not one instance where clark shows this kind of combat speed. Do note that both of these are human-level at this point, by matrix standards. Neo could.. jump 20 feet or so, no flying, nothing. Revolutions neo is.. you saw it yourself, different level entirely.

Add that to neo's immense skill advantage. He learns jiujutsu in a matter of seconds:

And on his very first day, he learns for 10 hours straight.

I don't honestly clark landing a hit when he's at such an immense disadvantage, both in combat speed, and in skill.

I honestly and personally see this as a long drawn out fight that'd go either way.

I used to.

This thread just got hilarious.

Why use Physics to characters who defies its laws.

This would be my last post in this.

• Neo's showing were inconsistent.
• He bleed from a bolo strike by a thug
• He spits blood after getting simply punch
• He withstood punches from Smith who can make a crater so big? That logic is blown. That Smith was a single entity force, he was only able to create that when he have all the muscles of every citizen and the Oracle, and Neo was barely able to stand after that.
• Neo is faster than Clark? Not even shown in the Matrix except in the simulation mode with Morph.
• Clark can't hit Neo? Jesus, lets just say you're right, but why would it matter to Clark, he'll just tank Neo's punches and sh*t.
• Clark's durability showings in the MoS were way too far from what Neo shown in the matrix combined.
• Yeah Neo is a bullet timer, but then he got hit, another inconsistent feat since when he wasn't yet the one he did dodge the bullets, then when he became the one, he can no longer do the same feat? TK feat as substitute, great. Afraid to get hit, or too slow to dodge.
• In all Neo vs Smith fights, neither had shown speed blitzing even in flight. Compared to MoS Faora, Nam, Zod, Clark fights.

Really hard to debate when people stick to their statements and can't back up with showings let alone SS or sh*t.

@princearagorn1:

All of those scans mean nothing because NEO CANT HURT CLARK! All the combat speed in the world wont change the fact that his damage output and durability is extremely too low to fight clark. The shockwaves from Neo and Smith in Revolutions was nothing more than visual effects from the rain and the water on the ground....the actual shockwaves itself was not very powerful because they were barely cracking windows. Clark and Zod is in a totally different league physically than Neo. This fight would go similar to how a fight between Captain America and the Hulk would go. Captain America is in a totally different league in skill and combat speed....but he could NEVER beat hulk because he don't have the strength nor the durability to win. Neo loses here and the majority of the people here agree with me

Pre Final Fight, I can't see Neo winning this even in the Matrix. However, I always thought the Source boosted Neo's power to match Smiths during the final battle in Revolutions. He went from being unable to block a very hard strike from a super powered being wielding a very sharp weapon, without a very small cut, to being able to withstand a partial city block busting impact.

Superman wins against any appearance of Neo up to the last fight in Revolutions. During that Final Fight, Neo would obliterate Superman from Man of Steel.

@afueikawa:

This thread just got hilarious.

haha.

Why use Physics to characters who defies its laws.

because he doesn't break every single law there is?

This would be my last post in this.

obviously.

Neo's showing were inconsistent.

His powers are based on beliefs. Of course they fluctuated through the trilogy.

• He bleed from a bolo strike by a thug

a) that's reloaded neo.

b) a strike from someone who was fast enough to keep up with him. Clark got hurt by punches and throws.

• He spits blood after getting simply punch

That is so much better than dying from a neck snap. What matters is who was throwing the punches, lol. People neo fought were fast enough to keep up with him.

• He withstood punches from Smith who can make a crater so big? That logic is blown. That Smith was a single entity force, he was only able to create that when he have all the muscles of every citizen and the Oracle, and Neo was barely able to stand after that.

No one even made that point.

• Neo is faster than Clark? Not even shown in the Matrix except in the simulation mode with Morph.

He's faster than every agent in the series, who outclass clark in reflex and combat speed, he's faster than movie one smith.. and himself from movie one.

• Clark can't hit Neo? Jesus, lets just say you're right, but why would it matter to Clark, he'll just tank Neo's punches and sh*t.

a) he can't.

b) he's not magically winning without ever landing a hit.

c) clark has never taken a punch as fast as neo's.

• Clark's durability showings in the MoS were way too far from what Neo shown in the matrix combined.

....yeah no.

• Yeah Neo is a bullet timer, but then he got hit, another inconsistent feat since when he wasn't yet the one he did dodge the bullets, then when he became the one, he can no longer do the same feat? TK feat as substitute, great. Afraid to get hit, or too slow to dodge.

Yeah neo is a bullet timer, and then he got shot.. point blank by an agent.

When he became the one he no longer needed to dodge bullets. It was literally a statement in the movie.

• In all Neo vs Smith fights, neither had shown speed blitzing even in flight. Compared to MoS Faora, Nam, Zod, Clark fights.

Obviously. Because they actually had notable reflexes and combat speed to keep up with each other.. Clark's reflexes are so failed he runs into buildings while trying to dodge bullets.

Really hard to debate when people stick to their statements and can't back up with showings let alone SS or sh*t.

Durability not good to tank this or too slow to dodge.

or he doesn't need to. Telekinesis.

A bullet timer but can't dodge this or tank it so blocked.

Yes, and he's facing someone who's a bullet timer and able to dodge punches. Oh wait.

So durable he spits blood after getting punched and bounced off of a wall

Not a problem here. Clark's punches are too slow to do any damage even if they somehow manage to land in the first place.

.

....Oh so durable...

Lol. Getting hurt from someone equally strong isn't a bad thing at all. Either for zod, or MOS or for neo, or for smith.

'omg he got hurt by punches and swordsss!!!' is not even an argument. For either side, considering the punches, the neck snaps, the sword wields.. all of that was done by someone equally fast/strong.

@princearagorn1:

Your whole argument is just ridiculous......just because Neo is faster doesn't mean he can hit harder...Neo showed no strength on Clark level....you are an obvious fanboy in this thread.

#

Neo doesn't win any fights period.....even Revolutions.

hitting faster = hitting harder, Unless you have proof that MOS is marginally heavier than a normal person obviously. Till then, neo dismantles him.

you are an obvious fanboy in this thread.

And you're unable to come up with any coherent argumant. Calling others fanboys is a really pathetic excuse to hide behind. Move along, just not your day maybe.

Are you a deity or some type of omniscient all knowing being? No? Well then your opinion is equally as invalid or valid as mine.

-Superman beaten and stunned with a small metal i-Beam, stunned for a while after having a 6-12 ton train caboose lobbed slowly at him, beaten hand to hand by aliens with 33 years of absent combat practice.

-Neo stalemated a god like being in terms of hand to hand skill, skin and bone structure able to withstand multi-ton swings from a program much stronger than any agent with a very sharp blade, so sharp and hard in fact that unlike all the other metal things in the matrix movies that bent and exploded from impact actually survived smashing into Neo's hand without any bending, and only making a small cut, survived immense physical trauma and impact without much external damage, impacting the ground so hard it made a 40ft wide by 15ft crater on solid cement ( this durability feat is so far beyond Supermans inability to not be phased by a small piece of metal hitting him in the face and the train caboose, that its not even fair to compare the two )

Neo Wins after jacking into the Matrix via the Source's help, but loses prior to that upgrade. Just my opinion, accept it or leave it.

@princearagorn1:

And u call your argument coherent??? Going by your logic....Captain America hit harder than Thor.

At least mine doesn't depend on calling people fanboys lol.

Going by your logic....Captain America hit harder than Thor.

...yeah no.

@batman242: Okay mate, I'm going to be busy over the next few days. We had a good discussion, but if the posts to the point haven't convinced you, let's agree to disagree. Maybe we'll continue when I get some free time later. :)

@rpottage:

1. This is a weak argument. I do not have to "admit bouncing boy is stronger than hercules " because I'm not talking about strength, I'm talking about force delivered on impact. Strength does not=Force. It ijs simply a factor: it is used to accelerate the mass of your hand when you punch. Force=mass X acceleration

"Do you think my being faster than you, and stronger, has anything to do with muscles in this place?" -Morpheus

2. The only butchering of physics is your lack of understanding. A man-sized object moving at 1 km an hour cannot carry cars in his wake. He would have to be moving much faster in order to have that kind of mass. Would the cars be spinning and stuff like they were in the movie? Of course not, but at a high enough velocity, yes, a man-sized object can displace even a street full of cars in his wake. It is the exact same concept behind Flash's IMP or King Ghidorah's ability to level cities by flying over them. At a high enough speed, a man sized object can even achieve enough force to displace or destroy even moons (comic superman), so moving cars in your wake is not that big of a stretch. Would it look exactly as displayed? Of course not, but all that matters is that Neo DID move so fast that his wake could pull several tons of material (and he can maneuver with pinpoint accuracy at said speeds). So what if it wasn't displayed EXACTLY as it would happen in real life? When is it ever? Lol its like saying Reeves Superman was flying 1 kph when he REVERSED THE EARTH'S ROTATION WITH HIS OWN WAKE.

There is nothing at all you can say to make that go away: it happened. If you want calcs, do it yourself. Find out how much mass it takes to displace a 2,000 lb object from 20 feet away, then how fast a man must travel to achieve said mass....n ull have the lowest possible speed for this scenario, as Neo dragged more than one vehical.

To even suggest a man moving at 1 kph has enough force to carry multiple vehicals shows just how weak your understanding is.

3. Neo downloaded every known martial arts directly into his brain....so yea, I did make such a comparison. Super Karate is irrelevent here...KK also isnt the cyber messiah with RW powers, no sense in bringing that up either. I didn't say one was better, I said a human like KK can go toe to toe with a comic kryptonian with just skill. Why you can't understand how the same can happen here to a far weaker kryptonian and an opponent far closer to him in base stats....but if the only way you can feel smart is to take what people say out of context, then you're right, you should be done here.

Try forming a legitimate argument when you come back, instead of just...talking.

@batman242: As powerful as those punches seemed because of the shockwaves, they obviously weren't as powerful as you think they are. Why? They're not really effecting any buildings, cars, not causing shifts in the air or anything in that way. Clark's and Zod's shockwave feat was capable of destroying the face of the skyscraper they were scaling. If MoS' shockwave was as big as the Matrix's, there would be a catastrophic aftermath, just making a battered Metropolis look even worse. Matrix's shockwave to me looks like nothing but visual effects.... I mean after all, they are in a virtual reality, am I right?

.

.

Not to get involved, but about the Neo/Smith shockwave....its not extra visual effects, its rain being forced back...that whole area is a massive void. Obviously the whole entire thing isn't as destructive as the smaller aoe of Clark and Zod's hits (the concrete-smashy zone would be way closer to ground zero in Neo/Smith's case), but there was definitely heavy displacement going on. At least its more impressive than Thor's window-breaking shockwave in Dark World lol (what isn't?) But basically as far as energy released, there is far more involved in the Neo/Smith shockwave than the Clark/Zod. Say CZ did level 10 damage to 100 square feet, NS did level 5 damage to 15,000 square feet (random numbers, the difference is actually greater: wall level shockwave<small city sized shockwave).

As for point of contact, the Neo/Smith clash produced more energy so their actual blows were far stronger....fitting the "faster punch=more force" arguement

OK then your not a fanboy.....you're just extremely biased....which is basically the same thing. Going by your logic, that is what you are saying! Of course Cap don't hit as hard as Thor...but the way your logic works contradict that statement because Cap is much much faster than Thor....so his punches are coming with more force than Thor.....right??? In the movie, the force of Neo and Smith punches were cracking windows out of the buildings....Clark and Zod punches were cracking the buildings itself.....which is more than enough evidence to prove who has more striking force.

lol. contradicting yourself from the very start.

Smh....faster punches doesn't necessarily say he hits harder whatsoever....this logic is the same thing that prince Aragorn is saying.....So by your logic.....because Captain America is faster than Thor......I guess Cap punches are coming with more force than Thor....and he hits harder..........NO

Neo punches do not have more force behind it because it doesn't have the destructive force. The shockwaves from the matrix was nothing more than visual effects to make the movie look badass. The damage output itself was nothing more than shockwaves strong enough to crack windows. A punch that knocked Neo into a wall which was probably no more than 30 feet caused him to spit blood and have trouble getting back up. Clark got thrown and punched into numerous of buildings and got up like none of it hurt him. Neo cant hurt MOS because his punches don't have the power to do it....and he doesn't have nowhere near the durability to take punches or heat vision from MOS

Still Clark

LOL. WOW! This Sh!t is getting heated.

My money is on Kal-EL

I posted videos of him and Faora punching a what is at least a comparable speed and tackling at far greater speeds. His heat vision is also far faster than Neo.

Actually that example does exactly what it's meant to. Bouncing boy is heavier than Hercules and he punches at the same speed. He bounces faster. According to your logic on the matter; Bouncing boy would hit harder than Hercules. He doesn't.

The argument we've been having is exactly about me saying strength matters when you compare the attacks of comicbook characters and you saying just mass and speed.

He didn't take several hits far faster than Clark. In his final fight he took maybe a couple hits that were weaker than clark and actually slower (since Smith didn't really use his speed that much in the final fight); and when he got his first powerful hit he folded like a cheap suit.

Your fanboyism is showing with that last statement. Even if you were right on the rest, you're not, anyone rational and objective would admit Neo can't beat him if Superman goes into space and just starts using his heat vision or throwing meteors at the planet because Neo cannot survive in space.
And you still have the heat vision issue at point blank range which would wreck Neo.

1) It's really not a weak argument. See you logic is quite simply that greater mass at the same speed with hit harder. Bouncing boy punches at the same speed with greater mass, and bounces at greater speed with greater mass. It would require you to admit you think he hits harder than Hercules which we know is now true. This is because in comicbooks strength plays a much greater factor. Someone punching at full force when they're a 100 tonner does more damage than someone punching at full force when they're a 1 tonner; even when the 1 tonner is a little faster and heavier.
That quote hurts your case, not helps it. He's admitting they're not reliant on physics there and that's why he stronger and faster.

2) A man sized object moving 1000 km//h hour can't carry cars in his wake either. That's exactly the point.
It's not the same concept as the Flash at all. The Flash is based on the special theory of relativity that states the closer to the speed of light you go, the more your mass increases, reaching infinite. It has nothing to do with carrying cars in your wake and he doesn't carry cars in his wake even when he go hundreds of times faster than light. So bringing him up just supports my statement that it's not a valid gauge. You can't quantify that speed so it's useless to use it as a speed feat.
Destroying something has nothing to do with drag.
No, it's not actually. See it's true that you can't use Reeve's time travel as a speed feat because it's not quantified; but the reason you can't say he went 1km/h isn't because of the time travel, it's because you seem him fly around the earth multiple times per seconds so you can actually quantitate it to some degree.

To suggest at any speed you can carry cars in your wake like that is ridiculous. The only difference is I understand that and you don't.

3) And you're comparison sucks and is flawed. Karate Kid knows every martial arts ever made up to the 31st century including Super Karate. Neo downloaded the knowledge of human martial arts up to the 21t century. Which means he's 1000 years behind, doesn't have knowledge of an alien martial arts ever, and doesn't know Super Karate which is what made the Karate Kid capable of temporarily holding his own against Superman.
So no, he's not like Karate Kid. He's like a cheaper version of Prometheus (cheaper because he doesn't have tactics specific to heroes).

You want to talk about context? Really, where did I say Neo can't go toe to toe with Superman? Show me because so far I've bee pointing out that Superman is capable of winning. You want to say he can do just as good as Karate Kid then go ahead but Karate Kid still lost.


Try understanding arguments rather than just spouting whatever you think will help Neo.

If Neo's punches cause massive shockwaves then there's no point in pretending it didn't happen. Neo has an excuse for his low showings because his power is based on faith. He literally no sold death because he finally believed he was the one.

Speaking of which has anyone answered how Neo's resurrection feat is being handled for this fight?

@rpottage:

1. Have you measured how fast Herc can use his 100 ton strength to swing his arm? No? Then this argument is dumb. You're comparing a guy who's whole power is to defy equal and opposite reactions to a guy who is strong. That's a far cry from what were talking about. Just one comparison here sucks...n its this one.

2. Its called the theory of relativity, not the "special theory of relativity" like its an exception lmao!! It proves my point exactly.....Flash used speed to increase his mass. As in he moved so fast that newton's laws broke down....same thing here, just to a lesser degree. An object with high mass can move an object without directly touching it....like how an asteroid can carry smaller asteroids, or how Reeves made an entire planet spin backwards. "No thats gravity!!!" Well gravity isn't a seperate force, its directly related to your mass. This is all evidence that Neo can move at velocities approaching relativistic speeds. Its not like it didn't happen, you can't just ignore something that actually took place lol you're beat

3. I am positive you are trolling at this point. Its hard to discredit my "skill>raw stats" arguemrnt when your comparison involves a guy who's only power is to defy physics (bouncing boy) lmao. If you want to talk about how much better (skill-wise) KK is, then you must Also factor how much better comic Kryptonians are than movie Clark....which is a faaaar greater difference lol nice double standard

So far, you have not pointed out why superman wins, all you've done is tried debunking Neo's speed and skill (the reason he actually wins). Saying you did is a far cry from doing so lol. We have scans of Neo creating city-sized voids which his shockwaves, making deeper craters, moving faster than clark, reviving from death, and downloading more martial arts styles than Clark has ever heard of. While Neo can take on programs specifically created to kill superpowered humans with his skill alone,

"Clark's reflexes are so failed he runs into buildings while trying to dodge bullets."....thank Princearagorn for that one, I died laughing lol. What have you proven, exactly? Nothing? Strong argument....lol

Hint: try not to exit on a line that can be applied to yourself better than I. I haven't said whatever, I brought up valid points based on posted scans, whereas you simply said whatever to try and debunk clear-cut feat. You literally just baselessly accused me of doing exactly what you're doing lmao if that's not a troll, I must be going crazy hahaha. Wow....just wow

@misterguyman: Neo's punches cause massive shockwaves then there's no point in pretending it didn't happen. Neo has an excuse for his low showings because his power is based on faith. He literally no sold death because he finally believed he was the one.

.

^couldnt have said it better myself. Its just hard getting through to people who's only argument is to grab a crucifix and scream "ITS NOT REAL!! ITS NOT REAL!!!" at it (but I'll be man enough to admit I'm a hypocrit, I did the same thing when Gypsy Danger tanked the entire ocean falling on it. "NO! NO! UH UH!!!!" But even then, at least there were feats prior that completely contradicted that)

And I'd agree with you if it had just shattered glass and do destructive damage to the area-- which it didn't. The shockwave based on what it actually did (nothing but expand) looked only to be visual effects, IMO. Look at Clark's and Zod's shockwaves.

That's about a 300 - 400 foot shockwave that actually kicked up loose dirt and shattered the ground below.

Gallery

This shockwave makes a direct impact on the skyscraper they were scaling; shattering the glass and destroying the surrounding structure.

As you said, Neo and Smith's wasn't as destructive as Clark's and Zod's and that's what we're pretty much arguing. What's the point of a shockwave that big if it didn't effect the people that made it or anything it expanded to? Clark won't be effected at all by a punch like that if it all it does is make a shockwave with not much power behind it.

Let's say that I agree with you on that argument, that's still not enough power to put Clark down solely because of his durability feat against the World Engine.

As nice fast, strong and powerful as Neo seems, he still doesn't look good enough to actually effect Clark with his hits.

1) Have you measure how fast Neo can use his unmeasured ton strength to swing his arm? No? And yet you're still making a claim on the matter.
So you refuse to address the logical flaw in your argument then?

2) No, it's called the special theory of relativity as to differentiate it from the general theory of relativity. Look it up.
How did Neuton's laws break down from him moving so fast? Do explain that, and explain how you know it's is speed and now the speedforce which is the mechanism traditionally used to explain how he can do things physics suggest he shouldn't be able to.

3) Well you're just wrong on another point then.
How does bouncing boy defy physics? And how is it that you think you can ridicule that when you're relying on a guy who alters physics?

And then you'd have to quantify Neo; which you haven't done yet and which gives me what I want anyways.

Oh, so then Neo's reflexes are so failed he has to rely on telekinesis to stop bullets because he cannot dodge them, and his durability is so failed he cannot tank them.
Sweet; that's easy then. Hey, I guess arguments are easier when you ignore context to make BS up, thanks for demonstrating that.

No, you haven't. You failed to quantify anything, so we have no decent feats for Neo; instead you've just plugged your ears and loudly proclaimed your right while slowly ignoring more and more points that you cannot address; like space, and heat vision, and blitzing.
Hell, you're best attempts at feats have to been to tout his durability since he wasn't completely KO'd from one a couple hits; even though those couple hits wrecked him and he couldn't recover then lost the fight.
And to claim he's faster because he can move so fast that he does things that don't occur with speed; but you can't quantify that speed so instead just claim that since a different movie didn't ignore the laws of physics like that, that the character is inherently slower that whatever speed Neo goes which is completely unknown to you since you can't quantify it. It's a nice bit of circular logic: The cars moved because Neo's faster, Neo's faster because the cars moved, the reason the cars moved is because he's faster.
But circular logic like that is useless; and yet that's what your entire argument for his speed boils down to. And the best part is that cars don't actually move like that so you're dismissing MoS, out of hand based on physics that don't translate over. It's meaningless, and that is an argument you don't understand.
I understand your argument, I just disagree. You, however, have tried your best to avoid understanding mine because you can't face my arguments. That's why rather than address the point my examples; you ignore the point and try your best to find a way to nitpick specifics while trying to do so in a way that you think doesn't call attention to the fact you're avoiding the issue.

Mate? You're Australian? o.O

And I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Neo has a fast punch feat, but none of his punches seemed that powerful. You can argue his speed all you like but his striking power will only tickle Clark.

@monsterstomp I found this 'Official Movie Novel' for MoS. I guess it goes in unison with the movie, but a little more detailed and descriptive.

no I'm not :o

But whatever you say.

Funny a shockwave in Matrix is special effects and in MOS its real, there is some serious bias here.

My veiw if Neo wasnt so much better than Clark his powers wouldn't have to be limited for this battle to make fair for Clark

Fully powered he stomps via phasing, in this battle he gets a metal beam and spanks

I assume you're referring to me. Notice that I said "looks" "seems" and "IMO". There's no bias here. You just see it as such. I also said as far as people have explained, this fight is going either way especially since the shockwave from the Matrix did nothing but expand-- not shattering glass or breaking walls or effecting anything for that matter. He has greater combat speed and skill than Clark does and it's pretty obvious, but Clark is not new to fighting someone with such attributes.

The OP states that there's no phasing and a metal beam won't do much. I'm guessing you can quantify Neo's striking power better than anyone thus far has argued that would make me believe he'd be able to take out Clark, and I'd gladly welcome and agree with it if it's logical.

MoS' best striking feat is creating a 300-400 foot crater. I just rewatched the Smith fight and the exploding shockwave massively dwarfed even the tallest skyscraper. If we assume that skyscraper is 80 stories high, a lowish estimate, then the exploding ball should be about 560 stories tall or 750,00 feet across.

Neo's 750,000 foot water shockwave massively dwarfs MoS' 400 foot shockwave.

MOS

clark is too much for neo to handle. kal el is the one.

Neo wins

they are on similar level of strength/speed/durability, but super has heatvision, on the other hand neo is definitely better fighter(he can know all martial arts there ever was), so maybe neo can have slightly majority....

Yeah... Neo would win this one. If he has all his power from the matrix then he can be as strong or as fast as he needs or wants to be. Superman can be killed. If Neo doesn't want to die then he'll just move faster and hit harder. That fight would look like the smith finale fight though... A great idea!

Neo if he so choses...

@tomofukuoka: A joke. When he tried to attack the world engine, it sprouts dr. Octopus like arms to stop him.

Bump

and so is Neo? or was it Smith? haha can´t remember