@Wyldsong: Actually he is not destroying the rocket in that. It is still a strength feat, but more so a accuracy one. Notice he is not destroying the rocket, but the bonds that are holding down Falcon. If he had destroyed the missile it would be good bye Falcon.
You are most definitely right, that is more accuracy. Misrepresented on my part. Been too long since I read that issue. I just saw the scan, jumped the gun, and typed without thought. Apologies=) Post is fixed=P
I'm on the fence regarding this one. On one hand, Cap has the protection & projectile of his shield, which has been shown to take down helicopters, destroy the front of a truck, also having the speed and reflexes to avoid most attacks from the Nemesis. On the other hand, it took literally an arsenal of firepower to take down the Nemesis, and even after a shot from a large rail gun, the Nemesis refused to stay down. As huge a fan of Captain America as I am, I see Nemesis taking a majority.
Um, Nemesis does try to follow Jill if you run into the RPD building. As far as putting Nemesis down for keeps? A decapitation might work but it might not. It wasn't the railcannon that ultimately killed him; it was the nuke.
Cap is throwing to kill, I don't really think we have to worry about a tentacle grab (At close range he does have to worry unless he wants to end up as a zombie, and apparently he has no healing herbs in his inventory). It would more than likely just slice the thing. I've got Cap taking out a helicopter (Nemesis did that too, he has slight idea of strategy when that evac chopper was about to land ), and taking a hit from Thor (that is not a durability feat if he is shielded because the shield is made that way, now if he was taking that unarmed then that would be more impressive). Trying to find some of the more impressive shield feats (I have lost a lot of scans -- had one of him slicing a vehicle in half if I can find it). Cap has ridiculous control and accuracy. He is seen slicing things apart with shield throws, or quite simply KO'ing people.
@Andy Steven Summers: Thanks dude, If you were a woman I would kiss you right now xD
Some durability feats of nemesis based on Biohazard Gameplay:
Nemesis takes barrages of weaponry to even be slowed down
he survives being hit by a flaming train going full speed (did someone mention a truck earlier?)
being on said train when it explodes and is derailed
being in exploding buildings
surviving a gas station explosion which leveled a city block
takes acid baths
has fallen hundreds of meters
It took multiple blasts of a rail gun to kill him
Saying that he is strong for holding the shield to take damage is just the same as saying superman is durable for sun dipping.
Since it is capable of nullifying kinetic energy and momentum then he would not feel anything at all.
@progenitor: The OP says it's first form Nemisis. From what I gathered from other posts it's his weaker version that Cap is fighting. Not sure if it makes a difference.
@Nerx: One of the biggest things I see in this battle is that Nemesis is not hitting Cap. He is just too quick, agile, and skilled to be hit by someone so much slower. The hits that Nemesis can, or might land are essentially warranted null and void due to the shields capabilities.
Cap is throwing to kill, I don't really think we have to worry about a tentacle grab (At close range he does have to worry unless he wants to end up as a zombie, and apparently he has no healing herbs in his inventory). It would more than likely just slice the thing. I've got Cap taking out a helicopter (Nemesis did that too, he has slight idea of strategy when that evac chopper was about to land ), and taking a hit from Thor (that is not a durability feat if he is shielded because the shield is made that way, now if he was taking that unarmed then that would be more impressive). Trying to find some of the more impressive shield feats (I have lost a lot of scans -- had one of him slicing a vehicle in half if I can find it). Cap has ridiculous control and accuracy. He is seen slicing things apart with shield throws, or quite simply KO'ing people.
@Andy Steven Summers: Thanks dude, If you were a woman I would kiss you right now xD
Some durability feats of nemesis based on Biohazard Gameplay:
Nemesis takes barrages of weaponry to even be slowed down
he survives being hit by a flaming train going full speed (did someone mention a truck earlier?)
being on said train when it explodes and is derailed
being in exploding buildings
surviving a gas station explosion which leveled a city block
takes acid baths
has fallen hundreds of meters
It took multiple blasts of a rail gun to kill him
Saying that he is strong for holding the shield to take damage is just the same as saying superman is durable for sun dipping.
Since it is capable of nullifying kinetic energy and momentum then he would not feel anything at all.
I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying Cap is strong for using a shield to take a hit, he's strong for many other reasons. I'm showing just what that shield is capable of, and most of those feats show how dangerous he is with that shield. You can't tell me Nemesis has anything near the power output of Thor=P
You want durability, look to Civil War when he was taking hits from Iron Man directly, who was trying to take him down, and he kept going (he was losing for sure, but wasn't out for the count). Or jumping from helicopters without a parachute, and moving on just fine with cracked concrete beneath his feet.
Considering Cap can see faster than a bullet moves, and has some pretty insane speed feets, I don't think he has to worry too much about a tentacle grab, and even then, that shield makes an awesome and bad arse ranged weapon. And his armor is pretty good too=)
@Nerx: One of the biggest things I see in this battle is that Nemesis is not hitting Cap. He is just too quick, agile, and skilled to be hit by someone so much slower. The hits that Nemesis can, or might land are essentially warranted null and void due to the shields capabilities.
I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying Cap is strong for using a shield to take a hit, he's strong for many other reasons. I'm showing just what that shield is capable of, and most of those feats show how dangerous he is with that shield. You can't tell me Nemesis has anything near the power output of Thor=P (cap takes too much credit for his shield :p)
You want durability, look to Civil War when he was taking hits from Iron Man directly, who was trying to take him down, and he kept going.
Considering Cap can see faster than a bullet moves (is he an aimdodger or a bullet-timer, that is something important i need to know), and has some pretty insane speed feets, I don't think he has to worry too much about a tentacle grab (well the virus is very problematic for the cap, seeing as he has no defense against it), and even then, that shield makes an awesome and bad arse ranged (Key word here, that is his safe distance where he can take pot shots. But if he loses the weapon) weapon.
@Andy Steven Summers:
One of the biggest things I see in this battle is that Nemesis is not hitting Cap. He is just too quick, agile, and skilled to be hit by someone so much slower (hand movement is slow, tentacles are fast). The hits that Nemesis can, or might land are essentially warranted null and void due to the shields capabilities (However tentacles can latch and steal the said protection, this would be a problem).
@Nerx: Cap has stated that he can see faster than bullets thus enabling him to dodge them even after they're fired. I'll try to find the scans of them but maybe some one else has them.
Cap has never been peak human. Nor was he ever intended to be. This is a large misconception. Captain America is an enhanced human due to the serum. His senses, healing, intellect, speed, accuracy, reflexes, strength ... all are enhanced beyond peak human levels. Regardless of older, misconstrued Marvel handbooks.
@Andy Steven Summers: @tg1982: Bullet-timer vs bullet proof, this is interesting
Cap doesn't just 'time' bullets as other top tier hand to handers. He can actually dodge bullets. Enhanced vision (see scan above), coupled with enhanced reflexes (and top tier skill doesn't hurt). There was one or two feats posted here highlighting his bullet dodging feats. But there are actually dozens more - with a few that would make Spider-Man blush.
Cap can hurt Nemesis eventually. I still reckon he does so before Nemesis tags him. And even then, he'd have to get past the shield ...
I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying Cap is strong for using a shield to take a hit, he's strong for many other reasons. I'm showing just what that shield is capable of, and most of those feats show how dangerous he is with that shield. You can't tell me Nemesis has anything near the power output of Thor=P (cap takes too much credit for his shield :p)
You want durability, look to Civil War when he was taking hits from Iron Man directly, who was trying to take him down, and he kept going.
Considering Cap can see faster than a bullet moves (is he an aimdodger or a bullet-timer, that is something important i need to know), and has some pretty insane speed feets, I don't think he has to worry too much about a tentacle grab (well the virus is very problematic for the cap, seeing as he has no defense against it), and even then, that shield makes an awesome and bad arse ranged (Key word here, that is his safe distance where he can take pot shots. But if he loses the weapon) weapon.
@Andy Steven Summers:
One of the biggest things I see in this battle is that Nemesis is not hitting Cap. He is just too quick, agile, and skilled to be hit by someone so much slower (hand movement is slow, tentacles are fast). The hits that Nemesis can, or might land are essentially warranted null and void due to the shields capabilities (However tentacles can latch and steal the said protection, this would be a problem).
Also remember that Cap is immune to most toxins (the man can't even get drunk) and diseases, as his immune system is far more advanced than that of a regular human -- I'll let someone with far more intel elaborate. Sooooo....not really sure how the virus would affect him, even if he managed to get infected. Like someone else said, he is a bonfide bullet dodger as well=)
Personally, I just don't see Nemesis being able to take the shield from Cap, and I definitely believe it would be enough to cut through parts of Nemesis if needed.
Also remember that Cap is immune to most toxins (the man can't even get drunk (you cannot simply compare a hangover with a virus that infected an entire city, this is the case when a super immune system meets a super disease. It ain't canon but in marvel zombies cap is not resistant to the plague. )) and diseases, as his immune system is far more advanced than that of a regular human -- I'll let someone with far more intel elaborate. Sooooo....not really sure how the virus would affect him, even if he managed to get infected (Infection would be a win clause for nemesis). Like someone else said, he is a bonfide bullet dodger as well=)
Personally, I just don't see Nemesis being able to take the shield from Cap (his tentacles can lift and toss around human sized object with ease), and I definitely believe it would be enough to cut through parts of Nemesis if needed (Damage to the point of crippling yes, but he has healing factor but cutting is very doubtful. He has never decapitated a major character enemy with the durability of nemesis).
@Super_SoldierXII:
Cap doesn't just 'time' bullets as other top tier hand to handers (bullet timers are dodgers, that is a term taken from the matrix when they see bullet sin slo-mo). He can actually dodge bullets. Enhanced vision (see scan above), coupled with enhanced reflexes (and top tier skill doesn't hurt). There was one or two feats posted here highlighting his bullet dodging feats. But there are actually dozens more - with a few that would make Spider-Man blush.
Cap can hurt Nemesis eventually (emphasis on the last word). I still reckon he does so before Nemesis tags him (depends on the range, since cap sometimes get tagged when fighting slower opponents). And even then, he'd have to get past the shield (he can steal the shield)...
Also remember that Cap is immune to most toxins (the man can't even get drunk (you cannot simply compare a hangover with a virus that infected an entire city, this is the case when a super immune system meets a super disease. It ain't canon but in marvel zombies cap is not resistant to the plague. )) and diseases, as his immune system is far more advanced than that of a regular human -- I'll let someone with far more intel elaborate. Sooooo....not really sure how the virus would affect him, even if he managed to get infected (Infection would be a win clause for nemesis). Like someone else said, he is a bonfide bullet dodger as well=)
Personally, I just don't see Nemesis being able to take the shield from Cap (his tentacles can lift and toss around human sized object with ease), and I definitely believe it would be enough to cut through parts of Nemesis if needed (Damage to the point of crippling yes, but he has healing factor but cutting is very doubtful. He has never decapitated a major character enemy with the durability of nemesis).
Come on now, I am not comparing a hangover to the virus. I am illustrating that his body has a better chance against the virus especially with the being immune to toxins and diseases (the not being able to get drunk thing was a sidebar -- it was not the main point), since he obviously doesn't have a healing herb in inventory as you put it. As for the zombie infection, you are right, that wasn't a canon Cap, and that virus was different beast altogether. Again, I remain uncertain as to how and if this virus would even affect him.
And regardless of just what Nemesis' tenacles can pick up, I doubt his speed in being able to even grab Cap or his shield. It's not like Nemesis is known for his speed and agility.
As for decapitating an enemy with the durability of Nemesis, no he hasn't (but we are talking about a guy who has faced off against Thor level threats and has came out on top), but I have seen nothing that states Nemesis can't be cut, especially by an adamantium and vibranium alloy mixture, which I would argue that Nemsis' skin has never had to face something like that -- and we have seen the force and speed that Cap can throw that shield.
@Wyldsong: I am just saying that Ultimate Cap (1610) will be much more suited for defeating Nemesis, but not so much on 616 cap
Come on now, I am not comparing a hangover to the virus. I am illustrating that his body has a better chance against the virus especially with the being immune to toxins (I would not say 'immune' as Carmilla Black would kill him outright if he was exposed to her toxins) and diseases (the not being able to get drunk thing was a sidebar -- it was not the main point), since he obviously doesn't have a healing herb in inventory as you put it. As for the zombie infection, you are right, that wasn't a canon Cap, and that virus was different beast altogether. Again, I remain uncertain as to how and if this virus would even affect him.
And regardless of just what Nemesis' tenacles can pick up, I doubt his speed in being able to even grab Cap or his shield (I meant when he hits cap and cap defends his tentacle can slip then grab). It's not like Nemesis is known for his speed and agility (It has been shown that cap can be tagged by slower enemies in the comics).
As for decapitating an enemy with the durability of Nemesis, no he hasn't (but we are talking about a guy who has faced off against Thor level threats and has came out on top(Nobody has ever defeated an undead zombie abomination by knockout)), but I have seen nothing that states Nemesis can't be cut, especially by an adamantium and vibranium alloy mixture (with a blunt edge, as it is consistently depicted as a bludgeoning multi-tool) , which I would argue that Nemsis' skin has never had to face something like that (not yet but he is no slouch and has survived things far more damaging than a flying shield thrown from a decorated WWII super soldier veteran) -- and we have seen the force and speed that Cap can throw that shield.
Okay, everyone claiming these durability feats for Nemesis are full of $%^&, it took Nemesis a few mutations to get that durable. This is the first form of Nemesis, and therefore his first appearance. You know, the one Jill took out with minimum firearms?
The OP doesn't say "NEMESIS DURING RAIL GUN FIGHT" or "NEMESIS AFTER ABSORPTION OF TYRANT" It says his first form and therefore his most base form plus a rocket launcher.
On top of that, Cap has thrown a shield through a helicopters tail and sliced it off plus he has a handgun. After those 5 rockets are gone, the shield is going to impale Nemesis, not ricochet off of him, and Cap is just going to unlead the clips into his head, which is much more than what Jill Valentine could do in their first encounter to KO him.
Yeah, maybe Cap would lose after it stalked him a few times and kept mutating.
@Wyldsong: I am just saying that Ultimate Cap (1610) will be much more suited for defeating Nemesis, but not so much on 616 cap
Come on now, I am not comparing a hangover to the virus. I am illustrating that his body has a better chance against the virus especially with the being immune to toxins (I would not say 'immune' as Carmilla Black would kill him outright if he was exposed to her toxins) and diseases (the not being able to get drunk thing was a sidebar -- it was not the main point), since he obviously doesn't have a healing herb in inventory as you put it. As for the zombie infection, you are right, that wasn't a canon Cap, and that virus was different beast altogether. Again, I remain uncertain as to how and if this virus would even affect him.
And regardless of just what Nemesis' tenacles can pick up, I doubt his speed in being able to even grab Cap or his shield (I meant when he hits cap and cap defends his tentacle can slip then grab). It's not like Nemesis is known for his speed and agility (It has been shown that cap can be tagged by slower enemies in the comics).
As for decapitating an enemy with the durability of Nemesis, no he hasn't (but we are talking about a guy who has faced off against Thor level threats and has came out on top(Nobody has ever defeated an undead zombie abomination by knockout)), but I have seen nothing that states Nemesis can't be cut, especially by an adamantium and vibranium alloy mixture (with a blunt edge, as it is consistently depicted as a bludgeoning multi-tool) , which I would argue that Nemsis' skin has never had to face something like that (not yet but he is no slouch and has survived things far more damaging than a flying shield thrown from a decorated WWII super soldier veteran) -- and we have seen the force and speed that Cap can throw that shield.
Alright, I can't keep this up today my friend. I have other things to attend to (like working on the power description for the Darkness, playing some Skyrim, and so on), but I will say that Nemesis has been knocked out before. I've played the game and seen it with my own eyes=P
In my opinion, Cap takes it. I haven't been shown enough to say that he can't, just as I am sure you feel the same for Nemesis. Been good debating with you though.
Okay, everyone claiming these durability feats for Nemesis are full of $%^&, it took Nemesis a few mutations to get that durable. This is the first form of Nemesis, and therefore his first appearance. You know, the one Jill took out with minimum firearms?
The OP doesn't say "NEMESIS DURING RAIL GUN FIGHT" or "NEMESIS AFTER ABSORPTION OF TYRANT" It says his first form and therefore his most base form plus a rocket launcher.
On top of that, Cap has thrown a shield through a helicopters tail and sliced it off plus he has a handgun. After those 5 rockets are gone, the shield is going to impale Nemesis, not ricochet off of him, and Cap is just going to unlead the clips into his head, which is much more than what Jill Valentine could do in their first encounter to KO him.
Yeah, maybe Cap would lose after it stalked him a few times and kept mutating.
And this is true. And Cap is far above Jill in ability and stats.
Alright, I can't keep this up today my friend. I have other things to attend to (like working on the power description for the Darkness, playing some Skyrim, and so on), but I will say that Nemesis has been knocked out before (dead yes, mutilated yes but KO'd I am not sure). I've played the game and seen it with my own eyes=P
In my opinion, Cap takes it. I haven't been shown enough to say that he can't, just as I am sure you feel the same for Nemesis. Been good debating with you though. (likewise)
NOTE: I know a lot of you are gonna be quick to say Nemesis, but keep in mind, Captain America, believe it or not, is actually pretty damn close to him in terms of strength. Nemesis was the smartest of the tyrants, at the cost of strength. I'm willing to argue for Cap so don't call this spite.
There was no strength sacrificed by Nemesis's intelligence. He isn't physically weaker than the previous Tyrant models.
For me, bullet timing is a term used to describe top tier, highly skilled folks who avoid bullets due to said skill (ala Remo Williams style) moreso than them being superhumanly fast enough to do so on reflexes alone. They time there movements based off the antagonists' moreso than actually being fast enough to outmaneuver bullets.
Gambit, to lend one example, is not skilled enough to 'time' bullets (i.e. he does not react faster than his antagonist based on being skilled enough to predict/read their movements). However, Remy's reflexes are superhumanly fast enough, despite lacking top tier skill, to do so in spades.
Stealing CA's shield is highly, highly unlikely for Nemesis. Nemesis is not Spider-Man.
Cap can and will hurt Nemesis enough to take him down before the inverse happens IMO.
For me, bullet timing is a term used to describe top tier, highly skilled folks who avoid bullets due to said skill (ala Remo Williams style (I love that movie, nice reference man)) moreso than them being superhumanly fast enough to do so on reflexes alone. They time there movements based off the antagonists' moreso than actually being fast enough to outmaneuver bullets.
Gambit, to lend one example, is not skilled enough to 'time' bullets (i.e. he does not react faster than his antagonist based on being skilled enough to predict/read their movements). However, Remy's reflexes are superhumanly fast enough, despite lacking top tier skill, to do so in spades.
Stealing CA's shield is highly, highly unlikely for Nemesis. Nemesis is not Spider-Man. (strength wise he is most consistently shown as peak human, its not as if he is known for a superhuman grip)
Cap can and will hurt Nemesis enough to take him down before the inverse happens IMO (taking him down is a possibility, though taking him out is a whole other ballgame).
(I know eh? That's one old classic... oldie but goodie. The books ain't half bad either.)
I strongly disagree that CA has been more consistently shown as peak human. In fact, that's just plain not true. Have you seen the scans in this thread alone? There's nothing peak human about Steve. Captain America is an enhanced human. Aside from the shield feats of strength, CA has consistently broken chains, bended steel, broken through solid steel doors, and all in ways (and with a consistency) that a Matt Murdock or even a Bruce Wayne (a true peak human) has never done. Not with anywhere near the same level of consistency or potency in any event.
But more importantly, Steve does not / should not get unarmed in such a manner due to his skill and superhuman aptitude with that shield. His skill with that shield is a walking, talking plot device in its own right really.
@Super_SoldierXII: Should we even put plot device and game mechanics in this match?
Game mechanics, no, but what's happened in the storytelling of said game is fair play IMHO.
As for his shield being a plot device; I say insofar as they've been written credibly and consistently as part of the character's ethos and then backed by feats, why not?
NOTE: I know a lot of you are gonna be quick to say Nemesis, but keep in mind, Captain America, believe it or not, is actually pretty damn close to him in terms of strength. Nemesis was the smartest of the tyrants, at the cost of strength. I'm willing to argue for Cap so don't call this spite.
There was no strength sacrificed by Nemesis's intelligence. He isn't physically weaker than the previous Tyrant models.
Then explain how the RE 1 tyrant was able to JUMP through the labs ceiling and land on the heleport, and how Mr. X was perfectly capable of running through walls, and Nemesis was incapable of simply knocking down the RPD doors after Jill locked them? :p
NOTE: I know a lot of you are gonna be quick to say Nemesis, but keep in mind, Captain America, believe it or not, is actually pretty damn close to him in terms of strength. Nemesis was the smartest of the tyrants, at the cost of strength. I'm willing to argue for Cap so don't call this spite.
There was no strength sacrificed by Nemesis's intelligence. He isn't physically weaker than the previous Tyrant models.
Then explain how the RE 1 tyrant was able to JUMP through the labs ceiling and land on the heleport, and how Mr. X was perfectly capable of running through walls, and Nemesis was incapable of simply knocking down the RPD doors after Jill locked them? :p
Jumping through a ceiling and breaking through a wall of similar concrete material is not the same as busting open that type of security door that was at the entrance of the RPD station. The type of bolt providing the security lock prevented it from simply being busted through. Nemesis was able to burst through walls just like Mr. X later in the game anyway.
Anyone else thinking that 616 Captain America is ABOVE "Peak Human" in ALL physical areas?! Maybe, like Ben Grimm, as time and training go on, Cap is getting more powerful. I think that Cap is at an "Enhanced Human" level now... above peak human, but just below super human.
NOTE: I know a lot of you are gonna be quick to say Nemesis, but keep in mind, Captain America, believe it or not, is actually pretty damn close to him in terms of strength. Nemesis was the smartest of the tyrants, at the cost of strength. I'm willing to argue for Cap so don't call this spite.
There was no strength sacrificed by Nemesis's intelligence. He isn't physically weaker than the previous Tyrant models.
Then explain how the RE 1 tyrant was able to JUMP through the labs ceiling and land on the heleport, and how Mr. X was perfectly capable of running through walls, and Nemesis was incapable of simply knocking down the RPD doors after Jill locked them? :p
Jumping through a ceiling and breaking through a wall of similar concrete material is not the same as busting open that type of security door that was at the entrance of the RPD station. The type of bolt providing the security lock prevented it from simply being busted through. Nemesis was able to burst through walls just like Mr. X later in the game anyway.
That's silly. Maybe if it were the doors to the Pentagon, but this is just a police station. Not to mention, as I've already mentioned, it took Nemesis awhile to bust through the church walls when playing as Carlos. And that's the only time I can think of when he actually broke through an actual wall.
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