Naruto vs Sora

VS

Rules

Morals on, in character

No speed blitz

No Stopga for Sora

Current Naruto

@jmarshmallow@neongamewave@princearagorn1@nyas

@colliderz:

Feats for Sora? i have no idea who he is.

Sora's fast but Naruto is too much. None of Sora's attacks are strong enough to hurt SO6P Naruto nor are his defenses strong enough to take on a Rasenshuriken let alone Bijuu Bomb.

Sora.

@a1l_s2a3m4e5n: I am currently on phone right now but I have tagged two people for Sora if they don't show up I will post some feats later

OK

Sora in a stomp.

He's too fast, and his magic is too versatile.

Even with Stopga restricted, Naruto still has no counter for Warp, Slow, Shrink, Graviga, etc.

Jmarshmallow

Cant they both one-shot eachother?

Apparently Sora is fast enough to dodge FTL omnidirectional attacks.

@mysticmedivh: ...how is one even supposed to dodge an omnidirectional attack? 0_0

Don't ask me, that's what I've heard.

@jmarshmallow knows.

nardo

By being extremely bad@ss!

.....and he had help, but still, dodging half of an omnidirectional attack of lightspeed lasers is no small feat!

Jmarshmallow

Naruto can multitask, your argument is invalid trolololol

Any proof those are light speed ?

D*** you logic!

Jmarshmallow

They're specifically referred to as lasers, and as you know, lasers are lightspeed. Check the top left information box when the lasers begin for evidence of that.

Easy peasy.

Jmarshmallow

This may seem rude, but that proves nothing. Lasers aren't always meant to be light speed in fiction.

I can provide scans of Madara/Sasuke casually reacting to "lasers", but that doesn't make them sub-light, let alone FTL.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: what are all of soras abilities

Ok, so based on this "fact", nothing was slowing them down and those were explicitly dubbed as "laser"s :

Yet Madara casually reacts to them and absorbs a few :

So I guess that makes him FTL in reflexes and sub-light in jutsu/arm movement ?

Then sasuke blitzes a much more powerful Madara later, so he is FTL ? Very flawed logic if you ask me.

So let me ask again : Any proof those were light speed ?

Oh boy...so many...

He's got MFTL+ reaction speed/combat speed/reflexes, strong enough to cut six skyscrapers into pieces in a single swipe, strong enough to beat up Hercules, durable enough to fight a multi-planetary threat (Xemnas), durable enough to fight a high-tier reality warper (Jafar), has magic that allows him to control fire, ice, lightning, gravity, air, magnetism, and even balloons lol.

He can also stop time (although that is restricted for this thread), poison his enemies, BFR them to another dimension via his spell Warp, can Shrink his enemies down to microscopic size, etc.

He also has a powerful weapon called the Keyblade which allows him to basically defeat any opponent, especially if they have any evil in their heart. It has allowed him to lock and unlock worlds, as well as powerful opponents.

I could go on, but you get it!

Just ask if you want me to show anything I've mentioned.

Jmarshmallow

Jmarshmallow

@rulerofthevine: Characters like Batman and Spiderman have dodged laser, but that doesnt put their reaction-speed at FTL. Sora's case is extremely different (i mean the dude fights off hundreds of lasers at 360 degrees, its insane xD).

@jmarshmallow:

Those are lightning by the looks of it, since the whole "Storm Element" thing.

Lightning attacks are classified as 'lightning element', 'storm element' refers to light based attacks.

The jutsu itself is called "laser circus".

And second, it looks like he puts up a shield rather than reacts to it.

He activated his preta path jutsu, then moved/used his arm to absorb the laser.

And in case you didn't knew, putting up a shield after getting shot with lasers also means you are reacting to it.

So no.

So yes.

Nope.

Yep.

They're lasers, and laser are lightspeed.

Same logic can be used for Madara here.

That's called aim dodging. I have yet to see a proof of those things being light speed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Madara is FTL I'm saying that the same flawed logic "it's called laser= light speed." can be used in his case.

Jmarshmallow

Any proof your "lasers" were light speed then ?

@jmarshmallow:

Sora having ftl reaction speed is pretty silly tbh. What about all those Disney characters he fought with and against? Do they have ftl reaction speed too? And what makes you think they're lasers? Why aren't they just balls of energy? And even if they were, what makes you think all lasers are light speed? What about laser bolts from Star Wars? Are all the fodder Jedi that blocked them light speed too? idk seems like you have to throw occam's razor out the door to believe that contention.

Not really a single sweep.

@rulerofthevine: no it's not flawed logic sharingan wielders have always been known to react/perceive to ridicoulous speed ex:Itachi activating susanoo before Kirin struck him and sasuke keeping up with Haku.

If I may say, this is irrelevant.

I don't believe that the "lasers" in either feat were light speed just because they were called lasers.

Lasers are not light speed unless confirmed to be.

@rulerofthevine:

Only one storm element techniques exists and it's called laser circus, not lightning circus.

And the fact that it's also called "storm element" contradicts that. So now we're at an impasse. If you had another feat to support that Madara is FTL, then I suppose he is. But based off that one, which contradicts itself, no he's not.

First he didn't even dodge,

Aim-react then.

I assumed you would get my point, but I suppose I'll explain.

Aim-dodging is when you react to something based on where it's shot from, rather than dodging the projectile itself.

For example, it's much easier to dodge a barrel of a gun, rather than actually dodging the bullet itself being fired.

Likewise, it's much easier to react to an attack if the enemy announces they're about to attack by starting their hand signs.

second please do explain how one can aim-dodge something after it's been shot, especially since he was blinded and didn't knew it was coming beforehand (which is the definition of aim-dodging)

By them announcing they were about to do it. And besides, they were blinded by the first attack and then attacked again, so they were already expecting an attack. Madara likely began to react as soon as he was blinded.

Expect Madara was blinded by the raiton flash,

Exactly. So he was already expecting an attack due to being attacked prior.

and the exact same logic can be used for your feat (the lasers were standing still for a while, so sora knew they were coming)

Not even close.

Sora and Riku reacted to each separate laser, and there were at least hundreds of them coming at them from ALL directions. And they perceived and reacted to each one individually. That's pretty much the exact opposite of aim-dodging.

Any proof your "lasers" were light speed then ?

Yeah, the same "proof" that water is water, fire is fire, lightning is lightning, wood is wood, etc..

Logic. Simple logic.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow I am not arguing whether the lasers are FTL or not, I know practically nothing about Kingdom Hearts. This is just a question in general, not meant to be aggressive or intended with offense.

Do you ever think that the creator/author/developer/producer/writer just meant laser as in "pewpewpew" laser? My question being that do the authors (when they write the story or develop whatever it is) actually think "Hmm, I intend this laser to go at 186,000 mi/sec" when they write or produce what they're doing. Do they go look up the definition of laser or beam, specifically choose one based on which one is which, and apply it to their work? Or do they just add lasers because it is just an attack and it goes well with the powers/story/character.

The same goes when I see people performing calculations (depth and width) for the crater of the bijuu bombs in Naruto. When the writer/illustrator drew the craters was he really saying "This specific crater has a diameter of 8.9 kilometer and a depth of 150 meters, so in real life the bijuu bomb must have had an equivalent of (insert number) megatons of force." Or did they just draw the crater for the sake of drawing a crater because there was an explosion, not with the intention of people trying to estimate how powerful it would be when applying it to real life units of measurement.

I know I didn't really express my thoughts into well worded paragraphs but I'm hoping you get the point.

@rulerofthevine: Madara's hype supercedes your opinions and or facts trololol

Actually, it kinda was a single sweep.

He just kind of cut through them faster than the eye could see.

Would you prefer it if I just said in "one go"?

Jmarshmallow

Nah, I totally get your point! You have a very valid argument there!

While I've thought the same thing on multiple occasions, we reach a bit of a gray area...

Because if we don't calculate certain feats, or take them at face value, then we have no way of truly knowing a character's full capabilities!

Like, at what point do we distinguish between "Author intent," and "actual feats"?

For example, there's this one feat for Wally West where he saves a town full of people from a nuclear explosion as the nuke is exploding. And he evacuates the ENTIRE city out before it can affect any of the citizens.

Notice it says "At a hair's breadth short of the speed of light..."

However, if you calculate it, or really use any logic at all, it's obvious that it takes speed FAR faster than under FTL to do that!

So, what's more important? Author intent, or clear facts?

That's the ever curious question...

And really, I don't have a good answer lol. It's up for each person to decide.

Same as Sora's feat, or any FTL feat, or any questionable feat for that matter!

Sorry if I couldn't provide a better answer! xD

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow:

And the fact that it's also called "storm element" contradicts that. So now we're at an impasse. If you had another feat to support that Madara is FTL, then I suppose he is. But based off that one, which contradicts itself, no he's not.

Storm element is merely the name of the classification of the jutsu, the author simply couldn't call it "light release" because light is "Yang" in japanese and there already exists a "yang release" classification that has nothing to do with light attacks. it's such a pain to explain those details to non-Naruto readers =_=

There is no contradiction whatsoever here, the technique is clearly not classified as lightning release and is called "laser circus", the fact that it's called laser should be enough to prove it according to your logic.

Aim-react then.

I assumed you would get my point, but I suppose I'll explain.

Aim-dodging is when you react to something based on where it's shot from, rather than dodging the projectile itself.

For example, it's much easier to dodge a barrel of a gun, rather than actually dodging the bullet itself being fired.

Likewise, it's much easier to react to an attack if the enemy announces they're about to attack by starting their hand signs.

There is no such a thing as aim-reacting lol stop making up stuff.

and as previously said, Madara didn't know that it was coming because he was blinded by the flash from another jutsu.

By them announcing they were about to do it. And besides, they were blinded by the first attack and then attacked again, so they were already expecting an attack. Madara likely began to react as soon as he was blinded.

They didn't announce it to Madara lol Shikamaru was narrating the plan in his head.

And false again, Madara had no idea when the attack would come and yet he perfectly timed his jutsu to absorb it, that's proof that he was reacting to the lasers.

Exactly. So he was already expecting an attack due to being attacked prior.

Sora was also expecting an attack, that doesn't negate the fact that he properly reacted to the lasers.

Not even close.

Clearly happened.

Sora and Riku reacted to each separate laser, and there were at least hundreds of them coming at them from ALL directions. And they perceived and reacted to each one individually. That's pretty much the exact opposite of aim-dodging.

And I said it was aim-dodging when exactly ?

Yeah, the same "proof" that water is water, fire is fire, lightning is lightning, wood is wood, etc..

Logic. Simple logic.

Wrong as other people beside me also explained.

Look let's not drag this pointlessly, do you have any proof those lasers were light speed ? If not then there is no reason to assume they are and as such there is no reason for me to accept your assumption.

So start by providing a proof, then we will talk.

Not at all.

Yes.

No, because he is superior to all of them. That's why he beats them.

Why were they even a threat to begin with if he's ftl?

They're specifically referred to as lasers in the game, I explained this above. Watch the video and look at the top left corner, the information box.

The jutsu above is specifically referred to as a laser as well. Your point?

Because science?

Because wishful thinking?

As far as I know, laser bolts from star wars aren't pure lasers. I believe they're like condensed lasers. I could be wrong though, I'm no SW expert.

So there're exceptions then? Why aren't the "lasers" Sora blocked condensed? The lasers we know to be ftl are usually a continuous stream yet the ones depicted weren't. Seems to imply they're condensed doesn't it?

Since when was Occam's Razor the absolute authority on any debate ever? Have you never read a Sherlock Holmes book? Or seen a well-crafted movie for that matter?

Don't put words in my mouth, never said it was. Occam's Razor does seem relevant to this case though and yet you just seemed to jump to a conclusion right away.

Even if that theory was set in stone, how is my answer not simple?

Occam's Razor isn't necessarily about the simplest answer but about the one that makes the least assumptions and you seemed to make quite a bit hence all my questions.

The game calls them lasers, lasers are lightspeed, and Sora reacted to an omnidirectional barrage of them.

You just made an exception above but don't apply it when it's inconvenient for you. If all lasers are light speed then I guess those fodder jedi must be MFTL too right?

@jmarshmallow said:

@mysticmedivh said:

@jmarshmallow I am not arguing whether the lasers are FTL or not, I know practically nothing about Kingdom Hearts. This is just a question in general, not meant to be aggressive or intended with offense.

Do you ever think that the creator/author/developer/producer/writer just meant laser as in "pewpewpew" laser? My question being that do the authors (when they write the story or develop whatever it is) actually think "Hmm, I intend this laser to go at 186,000 mi/sec" when they write or produce what they're doing. Do they go look up the definition of laser or beam, specifically choose one based on which one is which, and apply it to their work? Or do they just add lasers because it is just an attack and it goes well with the powers/story/character.

The same goes when I see people performing calculations (depth and width) for the crater of the bijuu bombs in Naruto. When the writer/illustrator drew the craters was he really saying "This specific crater has a diameter of 8.9 kilometer and a depth of 150 meters, so in real life the bijuu bomb must have had an equivalent of (insert number) megatons of force." Or did they just draw the crater for the sake of drawing a crater because there was an explosion, not with the intention of people trying to estimate how powerful it would be when applying it to real life units of measurement.

I know I didn't really express my thoughts into well worded paragraphs but I'm hoping you get the point.

Nah, I totally get your point! You have a very valid argument there!

While I've thought the same thing on multiple occasions, we reach a bit of a gray area...

Because if we don't calculate certain feats, or take them at face value, then we have no way of truly knowing a character's full capabilities!

Like, at what point do we distinguish between "Author intent," and "actual feats"?

For example, there's this one feat for Wally West where he saves a town full of people from a nuclear explosion as the nuke is exploding. And he evacuates the ENTIRE city out before it can affect any of the citizens.

Notice it says "At a hair's breadth short of the speed of light..."

However, if you calculate it, or really use any logic at all, it's obvious that it takes speed FAR faster than under FTL to do that!

So, what's more important? Author intent, or clear facts?

That's the ever curious question...

And really, I don't have a good answer lol. It's up for each person to decide.

Same as Sora's feat, or any FTL feat, or any questionable feat for that matter!

Sorry if I couldn't provide a better answer! xD

Jmarshmallow

I understand what you're saying as well.

One difference between anime/manga and comics is that in comics things are expressed with detail. In anime/manga they purposely avoid detail.

When a writer writes up a manga it has to go through an editing and finalization process, details such as big numbers, calculations, units of measurement and such are thrown out the window for the most part, especially in Shonen material because the content is intended to be clear, accessible, and legible for a younger audience. Which is one of the reasons why people have to calculate the speeds of Dragon Ball characters, the details are purposely left out, as opposed to when we have Superman flying around, the narrators box usually says, for example, "Superman rockets faster than the speed of light!".

@jmarshmallow:

Just ignore them. They obviously cannot grasp the concept that lasers and light are equivalent in speed.

Naruto

Well, I think it's more of a case by case basis.

But I get what you're saying!

Sora is a video game character, so I'm not sure if that logic works on him exactly..

I know you weren't debating one way or the other, just saying.

Jmarshmallow

My statement wasn't intended towards Sora as it was intended more towards Naruto/One Piece/Dragon Ball/Bleach and other anime/manga.

I believe you're familiar with the anime/manga named Bakuman. It is written by Tsugumi Ohba, the same person who wrote Death Note. Both of which published by Shonen Jump.

In the anime/manga Bakuman, two characters try to make their own manga series. Throughout the story Tsugumi Ohba explains (through the characters story) how anime/manga is written, edited, published, etc. The anime provides insight as to how anime/manga is made. In fact, the characters go to the Shonen Jump HQ where real employees interact with the characters in the manga, in which one of the editors specifically tells them to cut out the details to the two characters for the same reasons I stated above.

Which is what I'm basing my statement on.

@rulerofthevine:

Storm element is merely the name of the classification of the jutsu, the author simply couldn't call it "light release" because light is "Yang" in japanese and there already exists a "yang release" classification that has nothing to do with light attacks. it's such a pain to explain those details to non-Naruto readers =_=

Sounds like speculation heaped on speculation!

Fact of the matter is, it's called Storm Release, which would make it more like a lightning based attack.

There is no contradiction whatsoever here,

Indeed there is.

the technique is clearly not classified as lightning release

It is by being called "Storm Element."

and is called "laser circus", the fact that it's called laser should be enough to prove it according to your logic.

False, for reasons I've already mentioned. It has contradictions and inconsistencies, whereas Sora's does not.

There is no such a thing as aim-reacting lol stop making up stuff.

I used that term because clearly "aim-dodge" wasn't clear enough for you.

and as previously said, Madara didn't know that it was coming because he was blinded by the flash from another jutsu.

Again, he knew an attack was coming because of a prior attack.

They didn't announce it to Madara lol Shikamaru was narrating the plan in his head.

I wasn't referring to the words, my friend, I was referring to the hand gestures.

And false again, Madara had no idea when the attack would come and yet he perfectly timed his jutsu to absorb it, that's proof that he was reacting to the lasers.

You don't need to "time" a shield, which is basically what that jutsu amounts to.

The fact of the matter is, he was blinded, and whilst blind he put up his jutsu. That's not a reaction feat.

Sora was also expecting an attack, that doesn't negate the fact that he properly reacted to the lasers.

It's completely different, I don't understand how you fail to see that.

Madara knew an attack was coming and put up his shield to deflect it.

Sora literally moved from laser to laser, countering each one as it came at him, from EVERY single direction.

Two completely different feats. One is MFTL, one is not. Simple as that.

And I said it was aim-dodging when exactly ?

*Ahem*

And the exact same logic can be used for your feat (the lasers were standing still for a while, so sora knew they were coming)

Credit-RuleroftheVine

NDJj

Wrong as other people beside me also explained.

Nobody has explained how lasers can move at any other speed besides light. And you'll be unable to, because that would be the same as arguing that water is water, and fire is fire.

Look let's not drag this pointlessly, do you have any proof those lasers were light speed ? If not then there is no reason to assume they are and as such there is no reason for me to accept your assumption.

I'm not dragging anything on.

You replied to me first, and tried to counter my statement.

You asked for proof, and I gave it to you.

They are specifically referred to as lasers, and lasers are lightspeed. Simple as that.

Now, if you can prove that somehow that statement is incorrect, then so be it!

But as of now, I have proved they're lightspeed. So if you choose to back out, that is your perogative. Either way, Sora will remain MFTL. You can choose to not accept that fact if you so desire. Trust me, it won't hurt my feelings.

So start by providing a proof, then we will talk.

We've been talking this entire time, and I've provided proof.

Sooo...GG.

As for you, @m_man...

Yes.

No.

Why were they even a threat to begin with if he's ftl?

They're not, that's why he wins. He has never shown to struggle in gameplay against any Disney boss. Or really any boss for that matter, with the obvious exception being Xemnas. But even in that occasion, he was fine after the fight. Barely even tired.

The jutsu above is specifically referred to as a laser as well. Your point?

They're also referred to "Storm Element," which contradicts the "Laser Circus" title, especially since it would make much more logical sense if it was lightning.

However, even if they are lasers, then so be it. Because Madara only put up a shield-like while he was blinded, rather than specifically reacted to each laser a la Sora.

Because wishful thinking?

Nope, because science. Lasers are lightspeed. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but it won't make it any less true.

So there're exceptions then? Why aren't the "lasers" Sora blocked condensed? The lasers we know to be ftl are usually a continuous stream yet the ones depicted weren't. Seems to imply they're condensed doesn't it?

Of course there are exceptions, I made that perfectly clear.

In the case of SW, the blasters fire plasma, not actual legit lasers. That's what I meant by "condensed." It's not legitimate pure light, so it's not lightspeed. It barely travels faster than a bullet.

Don't put words in my mouth, never said it was. Occam's Razor does seem relevant to this case though and yet you just seemed to jump to a conclusion right away.

Why even bring up Occam's Razor then? It's redundant unless you were implying that it held any actual significance. Which it does not, as it's merely a theory, and not even a totally accurate one at that.

Occam's Razor isn't necessarily about the simplest answer but about the one that makes the least assumptions and you seemed to make quite a bit hence all my questions.

I'm not making any.

My argument is very simple, with no assumptions:

Sora reacted to an omnidirectional barrage of lasers.

They were specifically dubbed lasers in-game.

Lasers move at lightspeed.

Sora is MFTL.

Please, find something wrong with the logic of any of those statements. No assumptions, just facts.

You just made an exception above but don't apply it when it's inconvenient for you.

I don't make exceptions, I state facts.

If all lasers are light speed then I guess those fodder jedi must be MFTL too right?

Nope, for reasons explained above.

Nah, that ain't my style!

If they want to debate this, then so be it!

Who am I to deny them a chance to tangle with the Marshmallow?

Jmarshmallow

Gotcha!

Makes a lot of sense.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but truthfully I don't know if there's any one way to look at it.

Some people like calcs, others dont.

But then those same people that don't like calcs, don't like statements either...

Sometimes, it's hard to please anybody if they're biased from the start.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: * Sigh* this is why arguing with you about Naruto is such a pain, you refuse to understand the very basics. Lightning = lightning =/= storm. The laser was fired when Madara was covering his eyes, but by the time it reached him he had already used the jutsu and extended his hand to absorb it, I don't see what's so hard to understand in this (you and your nitpicking lol).

I'll will not waste more time explaining it, as you will more than likely ignorantly call it assumptions and whatnot. What matters here is that you need to provide a proof for your laser being light speed, since there is an incalculable amount of lasers that aren't light speed in fiction and I see no reason to consider Sora's different.

Edit :

And the exact same logic can be used for your feat (the lasers were standing still for a while, so sora knew they were coming)

Expect that this message was merely an answer to this post of yours.

Because regardless of whether those are lasers or not, the people who activated them are not. So Madara just knew the attack was coming, and responded accordingly.

No where did I mention aim-dodging, you said madara knew the attack was coming and reacted which is exactly the same as Sora who knew the attacks were coming and reacted.

I'll answer back when you provide this proof, until then I'll not consider sora FTL/light speed or even sub light.