Namor vs wolverine

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@EpitomeofCool:
I was/am very civil. You're just perhaps overly sensitive.

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@EpitomeofCool:
 I did not attack you, I merely stated a truth with regards your recent posts. And I have not chosen to ignore feats. Which feats do I ignore? You are more than entitled to your opinion. As am I, and in my opinion, the Wolverine/Namor battles can be read very, very differently than what the Moderator in question has pointed out. And, it is ingenuous to site that I 'attack everyone' when I am clearly addressing only you with regards my last post. And I stuck only to the facts both times. Nothing personal. No attack.

"

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@Buckshot:
OK, last whack at this. Take a look at the X-Ray again of the human anatomy. Take a look at Wolverine plowing his arm through Hulk's torso. Then imagine half an arm with three twelve inch adamantium claws puncturing through the torso, anywhere on that torso, (your version of events as to entry and exit wound don't matter a bit, not one bit, even though Logan is clearly hitting center mass) with the claws clearly coming out the other end. And now tell me said arm is not gonna have to go through bone to do so. The spine alone covers a lot more of the center mass than most think. Aside from this, feel your own back and see for yourself how high up the hip bones climb. If you are bent on holding to your guns there, then there is clearly no more to say as you would defy photographic logic till you're blue in the face on that one. Wolverine put his arm through the Hulk. Skin, muscle, sinew and bone didn't stop him. It happened. And this points more toward him being able to do so to Namor than your nonexistent proof to the contrary.

As to the remaining points, I will leave this in summary;

1. If morals were off, and Logan didn't give a rats arse about killing Namor, he would have punched his claws through the Submariner's face on that rooftop, and not landed with a 'sloppy' body shot. Denying this is denying Logan to be the master in hand to hand that he is. And yet you deny it. Even if the bone cannot be pierced, for whatever god awful, unfounded reason one may wish to believe, the eye sockets are an easy enough mark.

2. Logan clearly beat Namor, with morals off, in Enemy of the State. Clearly and irrevocably despite you searching for nonconcrete reasons as to the whys and wherefores the Wolverine just got lucky. Touting things like 'Namor was confused and clearly holding back when he laced into Wolverine's face with a 4x8 metal beam' (Shya right... whatever.)

3. And in the Nitro story arc, Logan clearly beats Namor... but I'm willing to bend with you on that one and call it PIS. Fine. However the PIS calling stops there.

4. You calling PIS to Logan tanking shots from class 100's when he does so repeatedly, and denying his plethora of superhuman combat reflex feats in favor of PIS, and this when he is shown fast enough to tag Namor repeatedly besides, bespeaks bias against the character more than those that disagree here show bias in favor of. You pulling the fanboy card on those who disagree with you (Wolverine Wanker that, Rabid Logan fan this) actually points more to your bias against Wolverine and resentment to his popularity as a character more so than anything else. If you're going to champion against those truly illogical fanboys out there, you need to differentiate between unreasonable Wolverine fanboyism run rampant and reasonable arguments based on showings and feats, otherwise you lose your credibility on the whole subject.

5. You are stubbornly denying his feats and yet showing nothing from Namor that suggest he can't hit him. Again, this anti-Logan sentiment is coloring your vision here more so than us Wolverine fanboys making an argument for Logan against Namor; 1. based off feats, 2. the fact he can and has hit Namor before and 3. the fact he can and has soaked shots from Namor without being KO'd. Logan hits Namor on repeated occassions, and yet despite reason, you find a way to say he cannot or put to question the times he has. His long history of feats show Wolverine to be inhumanely fast. And yet still, him hitting Namor is PIS. His combat history, feats and showings against Namor and others of similar calibre, point to Logan being able to soak class 100 blows, and yet still you call it PIS. Ridiculous really.

6. You compare Logan to streetlevelers without qualifying. Stating a street leveler should never be matched up against Namor, Wolverine is a mere streetleveler, and to even postulate he can win a majority is silly. OK. Fine. 

Here's a list; Captain America, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Batman, Nightwing, and Wolverine. Of those Street Levelers, who would survive a direct punch to the head by Superman? If you answer truthfully, perhaps you will see how misleading and unfair your comparison of Wolverine to any old streetleveler is now? But probably not.

 

That's all I really have to say on the matter, we've argued details more than enough at this point. We both seem to want to have the 'last word' as it is. So unless you say something I really find unfair to the issue or misleading, I'm going to leave things as they are and realise when enough is enough.

 

"

2. Yes, Wolverine beat Namor in that fight. Does that matter here if the things that let him win aren't in this fight? Forget the gasoline that made his strike more damaging. If Namor's first hit (which he got off without Wolverine being able to do anything about it) was like his attack from the x-mansion, Wolverine would have been incapacitated before he got a chance to strike. Hell, if his first hit was like his third hit in that fight and Wolverine was left on the ground with his eyes closed and then instead of hovering over him to ask questions, Namor followed it up with a strike from the sky, Wolverine wouldn't have had any comeback. Wolverine's moral's were off, but Namor still wasn't hitting as strong as he could. If Namor were hitting as hard as he could, Wolverine wouldn't still have been standing right in front of him after the first shot. Even the hit with the metal beam was holding back. Namor has punched the Hulk miles away, but you don't think he was holding back when he hit Wolverine and he barely moved? And you also misunderstand other points I made about that fight. I didn't say Wolverine got lucky or that Namor was confused. Wolverine used a weapon that won't be available in most fights and used that external aid to win. I said that Namor was asking questions, but that wasn't to suggest that he was confused, just that he was more concerned about what Wolverine was doing than fighting him to the death. When Namor wants to fight, he doesn't talk or ask questions, he rushes forward and starts swinging. His behavior indicates how much he's putting into a fight and him asking questions doesn't match the idea that he was going all out. .

4. If you think Logan's popularity doesn't influence who he beats in fights, then you are mistaken. You're not the only person on the Wolverine Wank Wagon (I think the alliteration is funny), don't take it personally.  Anyway, as to him tanking shots from class 100's, when he also gets knocked out by human level fighters and its the same basic motion/injury that causes a KO (so skill doesn't matter so much), then I think it would be a little silly to think characters thousands of times stronger can't do the same thing. I understand that he commonly walks away from these things, but I've also seen times when writers draw specific attention to it instead of just glossing over it and seeing how it changes when it's actually being addressed.

5. You are stubbornly denying his feats and yet showing nothing from Namor that suggest he can't hit him. Again, this anti-Logan sentiment is coloring your vision here more so than us Wolverine fanboys making an argument for Logan against Namor; 1. based off feats, 2. the fact he can and has hit Namor before and 3. the fact he can and has soaked shots from Namor without being KO'd. Logan hits Namor on repeated occassions, and yet despite reason, you find a way to say he cannot or put to question the times he has. His long history of feats show Wolverine to be inhumanely fast. And yet still, him hitting Namor is PIS. His combat history, feats and showings against Namor and others of similar calibre, point to Logan being able to soak class 100 blows, and yet still you call it PIS. Ridiculous really.

What feats am I denying? That Namor is fast enough to hit first multiple times without Logan being able to react? That he's capable of incapacitating Wolverine in a single hit when he uses more of his strength (instead of punches that barely budge Wolverine)? Namor showed that already. Sure, Logan's fast. The fights showed that Namor is faster. Sure, Logan can take a hit. The fights showed that Namor fights at varying levels of strength and when he really hits with power, Wolverine goes down for a couple panels (which, if not a KO in itself, certainly leaves him open for a finishing blow).

6. If it upsets you, we don't have to compare Wolverine to other street levelers, the fights between namor and wolverine show plenty on their own. I'll answer your question though. Captain America, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Batman, Nightwing, and Wolverine: None of them would survive a direct punch to the head by Superman.Namor incapacitated  Wolverine with a hit that made a small hole in the ground. Even if that was as strong as he could hit (I don't believe it was by a long shot), that's only a hit from someone that lifts a few hundred thousand tons. Superman easily lifts millions of tons without even going to his higher end strength feats. Even if he can't destroy adamantium and even if Wolverine's skeleton stayed intact and his head remained attached to his body (two other conversations), the force of the blow would liquefy  Wolverine's brain and with his powers to come back from death removed, he'd be just as dead as the others.

" Well, the fight really depends on what Namor's first actions are. He could just start and end the fight with a fierce blow  or many blows which could ko/ incampacitate him. Wolverine's only chance is seemingly being knocks into an area of pollution or a cheat attempt to stab/cut at Namor's vitals or pain spots after also taking some bad ass blows. Wolverine can do so dirty things to him, but with morals on or off, Namor starts with control of the fight and if Logan is lucky he might get a chance to throw in a lick that. I'm going with Namor 9 out of 10 with the 1 out of 10 chance of him doing something unfortunate like trying to talk with wolverine after thinking the midget with metal nails is staying down. Namor's clean fighting vs Wolverine's dirty  fighting. It all depends on how Namor decides to deal with wolverine. Same with any "brick". "

I agree, though I probably wouldn't call Logan trying to go for the kill "cheap".

namor

This is an interesting read on the topic from another forum all together.  I liked it.

 See here's the problem with Namor vs. Wolverine... Namor has no range... He necessarily HAS to fight Wolverine in a hand to hand competition (note: I'm not counting the possibility of Namor picking up a building and dropping it on Logan because that doesn't really prove who can beat who in a straight fight.).


Now in terms of speed, there's no advantage to either party. For every one of Namor's best feats of speed in combat, Wolverine has matched it or surpassed it.

In terms of skill, while Namor's skill is good for a brick he's simply outclassed by the caliber of fighter that Wolverine is.. If direct comparison's aren't enough to convince you, look at the Namor vs. Captain America fights, The cap is ALWAYS giving him a tough time in combat based on his skill alone.

Wolverine also has a reach advantage.. While short, his claws add a whole foot of reach to his striking, Wolverine can keep Namor at a safe distance if he needs to while Namor can't.

In terms of damage soak.. Wolverine can take far more punishment from Namor than Namor can from Wolverine...

If Namor punches Wolverine in the face, he'll get up.
If Wolverine clocks Namor in the face with claws out, Namor won't.

And if there's no water around to retreat to, Wolverine can heal from the damage that Namor dishes out while Namor can't heal from the bloodloss and wounds that Wolverine can give to him...
-And we're just talking about stabbing here... What happens if Namor gets in too close and Wolverine decides to swing instead of strike? If Namor grabs Logan, he's losing a hand... Hell he might very well lose a limb in mid fight, Wolverine did it to the Blazing Skull, and Skull can lift about 60+ tons.

Namor has to fight flawlessly to beat Wolverine, and he has to keep it up long enough to actually put Wolverine down.

Against a fighter who's just as fast, better in skill, and has a reach advantage.. I don't see Namor capable of that.

I'm not saying that Wolverine takes this ten out of ten. Namor definitely has what it takes to bring Logan down, just not for the majority..

Nothing I've seen from Namor dictates otherwise..

ESPECIALLY when one considers their fights...

1st- Wolverine could have slice Namor in half but pulls back to show Namor he's not a threat..
2nd- Mind Controlled Wolverine fights Namor to a stalemate; Namor admits that he can't beat Wolverine sans the mind control later on.
3rd-Mind Controlled Wolverine beats up the Blazing Skull, Namor cheap shots him and then Wolverine proceeds to beat Namor till U.S. Agent comes to Namor's rescue.. Namor thanks Agent for saving him.
4th- Wolverine who already had to heal from a skeleton and fight a 60-70 ton lifter fights Namor to the point that he momentarily drops him with stab wounds.. Namor's guard comes to his RESCUE allowing Namor to get in a cheap shot from behind to end the fight.
5th- Wolverine wearing a suit that slows down his reflexes still beats back Namor, punching him so hard his eye roll into the back of his head.
6th- Namor gets stabbed and has to retreat to a swimming pool to recover.. Wolverine's still fine, getting up, and talking trash even after Namor crushes every organ in his body.
7th(what if)- Namor attack Wolverine and Wolverine stabs him through the head.

How people get "Namor wins" from all that is beyond me...

@Doombert: 
Honestly, most of those points (very valid points I might add) I've been arguing for pages and pages on this thread to no avail. No one seems to want to see them or acknowledge them as valid. Here's the type of feedback I've been getting thus far; 

Namor big. Namor strong. Namor pick up big boat. Therefore Namor wins.

This is really how people see it I feel. The dude with the biggest bench press wins the fight. Outside of BFR, I don't see Namor putting a Wolverine who is NOT pulling his punches down before he himself takes a dirt nap. But I seem to be a minority figure here. Ah well.

@Doombert: 
Honestly, most of those points (very valid points I might add) I've been arguing for pages and pages on this thread to no avail. No one seems to want to see them or acknowledge them as valid. Here's the type of feedback I've been getting thus far; 

Namor big. Namor strong. Namor pick up big boat. Therefore Namor wins.

This is really how people see it I feel. The dude with the biggest bench press wins the fight. Outside of BFR, I don't see Namor putting a Wolverine who is NOT pulling his punches down before he himself takes a dirt nap. But I seem to be a minority figure here. Ah well.

@Ramtha07 said:

@Doombert:
Honestly, most of those points (very valid points I might add) I've been arguing for pages and pages on this thread to no avail. No one seems to want to see them or acknowledge them as valid. Here's the type of feedback I've been getting thus far;

Namor big. Namor strong. Namor pick up big boat. Therefore Namor wins.

This is really how people see it I feel. The dude with the biggest bench press wins the fight. Outside of BFR, I don't see Namor putting a Wolverine who is NOT pulling his punches down before he himself takes a dirt nap. But I seem to be a minority figure here. Ah well.

If you really want to start it up again we can, but there's really no point. I don't deny that Wolverine can do damage to Namor, but the fights show that Namor hits first and that when he actually uses his strength in a meaningful way, Wolverine goes down for long enough for it to either count as a win, or give Namor an opening for a fight-ending hit. I already went over the fights and those points can't really be denied. If Namor doesn't fight like he's capable of fighting, then yes, Wolverine can land some serious hits, but that's not how we look at fights here, with one fighter holding back the majority of their strength for no good reason.

Also, I think that repost is skewed toward Wolverine. Namor's ability to use his strength, intelligence and flight to get objects with which to hit Wolverine from range is discounted because then it's not a straight fight? Ridiculous. Any time Namor gets a hit its labeled "cheap", but all Wolverine's hits (even the one where Namor has said he doesn't want to fight and is offering Wolverine a helping hand) are all legit? Equally ridiculous. There's more in there, but those two things jumped out as the most obviously foolish.

Hiya Buckshot!  I've been a major forum lurker for some time now and love your posts!  I've always wanted a chance to debate with you on something that I felt I actually knew something about!  Ill give it my best!  Be gentle!

1.  I do concur that the post IS in favor of Wolverine.  After all...it's originally taken from a Wolverine respect thread.  The cheap shots comment you made can be seen going either way.  Now let's be honest...some of them you cant argue were cheap.  I'm not arguing that Logan also tagged him under unfair situations.  You are 100% correct.  However none of them resulted in a KO.  Certainly if Logan got ONE truly cheap shot in and his goal was to kill/finish Namor his knowledge of anatomy in general, coupled with his claws could definitely put him down.  Why didnt he?  It's simple.  Wolverine doesnt KO people.  He kills them.  He would never be permitted to kill someone like Namor! 

2.  Using objects to fight with is certainly fair, the post says dropping a building on him isnt fair.  A building is not part of his normal gear and in this situation nothing says that a building is available for him.  I see it like giving Andre the Giant a crowbar in a fight with Gary Coleman.  In terms of overall strength this situation I just posted is certainly more fair than the one you are thinking of, and still it makes me cringe! 

Both can win under certain conditions depending on location, etc. But in this one since its a straight up i say Namor.

I'd have to give my vote to Namor here.  Not only is Namor capable of nearly one-shotting Logan, but Namor has the ability of flight and incredible speed.  Due to past confrontations and how they've ended, if these two locked horns, I believe that Namor would come out the victor.

*Okay well, for the knock out scenario let us first examine how knock outs occur in the first place.
Knock outs happen when the brain is rocked back and forth inside the head causing it to bounce around in the skull. When it does so the electrical synapses that fire off in the brain which help to dictate balance and motor skills get jolted. When the brain hits the front of the skull they fire from the front backward, and when it hits the back of the skull, the opposite.. When the Synapses get caught in the crossfire, it causes the nervous system to "short circuit" causing the person to lose their motor skills and consciousness.

By way of boxing and full contact fighting statistics it's rare for people to be knocked out for more than a minute, it's extremely rare for them to slip into a coma.

This is important because:
Wolverine's been described on multitudes of occasions as taking damage from bullets, knives or explosions that would kill a man, ten men, twenty, an elephant, and even a herd of elephants... Yet in most of these references Wolverine continues not only to struggle, but to put up a full fledged fight. We know for certain that Wolverine can heal from an exploded heart in as fast as a few minutes, and once his nervous system regenerates he's able to pull off the same feat with his entire mass from a skeleton as well.

One incident in particular comes to mind; Wolverine and Sabretooth were kicking the livin hell out one another, Wolverine recognized that they were trading punishment that would have killed dozens of men; Wolverine can heal from mortal afflictions capable of killing dozens of men fast enough not to be bothered by it to slow down his fight with another vicious superhuman... Why is this important?

Because: Think about the rate at which you heal; A scrape, a cut, they might take a few days do scab over, and can take up to a few weeks before their appearance completely subsides. Think about that rate of healing and then think about how long it would take your body to heal at that rate from a knive wound. Weeks? Months?
Imagine how long it would take to regenerate an entire arm at that rate of healing... It would probably take decades... These are wounds Wolverine recovers from in minutes, seconds even.
When you put all that into perspective, recovering from a knock out at the rate Wolverine heals is practically nothing. Theoretically he could heal from a KO in a nanosecond or less.
It's conceivable that Wolverine DOES get knocked out every time he gets hit by a brick, but he heals from the KO so fast that he recovers before he loses his balance or falls over... It's even possible that he experiences flashes of blackouts without falling down.

@Ramtha07 said:

@Doombert:
Honestly, most of those points (very valid points I might add) I've been arguing for pages and pages on this thread to no avail. No one seems to want to see them or acknowledge them as valid. Here's the type of feedback I've been getting thus far;

Namor big. Namor strong. Namor pick up big boat. Therefore Namor wins.

This is really how people see it I feel. The dude with the biggest bench press wins the fight. Outside of BFR, I don't see Namor putting a Wolverine who is NOT pulling his punches down before he himself takes a dirt nap. But I seem to be a minority figure here. Ah well.

If you really want to start it up again we can, but there's really no point. I don't deny that Wolverine can do damage to Namor, but the fights show that Namor hits first and that when he actually uses his strength in a meaningful way, Wolverine goes down for long enough for it to either count as a win, or give Namor an opening for a fight-ending hit. I already went over the fights and those points can't really be denied. If Namor doesn't fight like he's capable of fighting, then yes, Wolverine can land some serious hits, but that's not how we look at fights here, with one fighter holding back the majority of their strength for no good reason.

Also, I think that repost is skewed toward Wolverine. Namor's ability to use his strength, intelligence and flight to get objects with which to hit Wolverine from range is discounted because then it's not a straight fight? Ridiculous. Any time Namor gets a hit its labeled "cheap", but all Wolverine's hits (even the one where Namor has said he doesn't want to fight and is offering Wolverine a helping hand) are all legit? Equally ridiculous. There's more in there, but those two things jumped out as the most obviously foolish.

Ah crap! You were listening!! (Ducks for cover)

:)

Namor's feats of speed are not more than Wolverines in terms of blitz fighting

Their past confrontations have always ended with some kind of outside interference

As far as one shotting Logan, he has never one shotted a fully rested Logan, and this may give some insight on how Logan's healing factor works, specifically in a one shot KO scenario

@Doombert:
  

Namor's feats of speed are not more than Wolverines in terms of blitz fighting

 

 Namor doesn't need to be faster in terms of blitzing speed, if anything their relatively close in speed with Logan might being faster in running. And Wolverine may be a blur to human in speed bursts, but that doesn't mean he would be a blur to Namor. Namor is also a pretty fast flier which if he actually uses it in the fight properly he can keep Wolverine off balance.

 . 

Their past confrontations have always ended with some kind of outside interference

.
Most of their fights also involved some kind of plot device.

 

As far as one shotting Logan, he has never one shotted a fully rested Logan, and this may give some insight on how Logan's healing factor works, specifically in a one shot KO scenario

 He's never hit Wolverine as hard as he could and still managed to crush all his organs in a single hit. 

Your first point is a good one.  Only problem I have with it is he "could" use his ability to fly.  He just hasnt done it yet.  Why?  Who knows for sure

Even if he does get a quick drop on Logan via flying and winds up restraining his arms somehow, Logan could always use his feet to deliver a nasty blow like he did with Capt America during their last fight in Wolverine Origins

@Doombert:
  

Namor's feats of speed are not more than Wolverines in terms of blitz fighting

 

 Namor doesn't need to be faster in terms of blitzing speed, if anything their relatively close in speed with Logan might being faster in running. And Wolverine may be a blur to human in speed bursts, but that doesn't mean he would be a blur to Namor. Namor is also a pretty fast flier which if he actually uses it in the fight properly he can keep Wolverine off balance.

 . 

Their past confrontations have always ended with some kind of outside interference

.
Most of their fights also involved some kind of plot device.

 

As far as one shotting Logan, he has never one shotted a fully rested Logan, and this may give some insight on how Logan's healing factor works, specifically in a one shot KO scenario

 He's never hit Wolverine as hard as he could and still managed to crush all his organs in a single hit. 

That his was a body slam to the pavement. Not a punch. Two very different types of attacks. And honestly, Namor was pissed off. He was not holding back when he body planted Logan like that. There is nothing to suggest that he was holding back and far more to suggest he wasn't given the context of that fight. Fact is, even after Logan landing an admittedly sloppy blow (the smirk and his comback both suggest Logan finds the idea of him hitting sloppy by accident a ridiculous notion) Namor needed a dip in the pool to stay in the game.

There is simply more to suggest that Logan was not going for the killing blow in that skirmish. It's ridiculous to point to Namor 'holding back' and ignore Logan impaling Namor in a 'sloppy' fashion. Fact is, a master martial artist wants to land a mortal wound, he ain't gonna hit sloppy.
Where I agree, Namor can KO Wolverine, Logan has every tool at his disposal to kill Namor should it come to that in a hand to hand skirmish.

That his was a body slam to the pavement. Not a punch. Two very different types of attacks. And honestly, Namor was pissed off. He was not holding back when he body planted Logan like that. There is nothing to suggest that he was holding back and far more to suggest he wasn't given the context of that fight. Fact is, even after Logan landing an admittedly sloppy blow (the smirk and his comback both suggest Logan finds the idea of him hitting sloppy by accident a ridiculous notion) Namor needed a dip in the pool to stay in the game

There is simply more to suggest that Logan was not going for the killing blow in that skirmish. It's ridiculous to point to Namor 'holding back' and ignore Logan impaling Namor in a 'sloppy' fashion. Fact is, a master martial artist wants to land a mortal wound, he ain't gonna hit sloppy.
Where I agree, Namor can KO Wolverine, Logan has every tool at his disposal to kill Namor should it come to that in a hand to hand skirmish

                    @Ramtha07:  

 

That his was a body slam to the pavement. Not a punch. Two very
different types of attacks. And honestly, Namor was pissed off. He was
not holding back when he body planted Logan like that. There is nothing
to suggest that he was holding back and far more to suggest he wasn't
given the context of that fight. Fact is, even after Logan landing an
admittedly sloppy blow (the smirk and his comback both suggest Logan
finds the idea of him hitting sloppy by accident a ridiculous notion)
Namor needed a dip in the pool to stay in the game

 He was hit not slammed. If Namor actually threw him or rammed him into it, it would be a slam, he blasted him  in the back with a double axehandle which looks like a type of hit to me. Namor was ticked but he still wasn't pissed there is no reason he went all out on Logan and there is no reason he would've went all out on Logan with those hits. he created a measily little crater and if he wanted to , he could've flown straigth down at him and blasted him again and again. Namor lifts thousands of tons, right out of the water he could've done much worse. He was holding back and there was nothing to suggest he went all out. Only reason he went in the pool is because he knew couldn't keep up with Logan after being out of the water for a few days.


 

There is simply more to suggest that Logan was not going for the killing
blow in that skirmish. It's ridiculous to point to Namor 'holding back'
and ignore Logan impaling Namor in a 'sloppy' fashion. Fact is, a
master martial artist wants to land a mortal wound, he ain't gonna hit
sloppy.
Where I agree, Namor can KO Wolverine, Logan has every tool
at his disposal to kill Namor should it come to that in a hand to hand
skirmish

And nothing suggests either were going out. Logan was playing his usual BA motto and i'll swing and cut style of attacks and Namor was out of water for a few days, he isn't stupid enough to take Logan on weakened like that. I'll agree that it comes to circumstances. If Namor actually utilized his flight and speed like he should, Logan is at a disadvantage. Namor isn't a slow brick like Wolverine is used to fighting. Should Namor fight on the ground, he can lose.

                   

               

It was far more a slam than a strike I'm afraid... Namor flew up, then slammed him into the earth... whether he slammed him with an opened handed throw or a closed fisted one... it's still obviously a slam;

Grabs Logan... flies up...

And pastes him down face first into the pavement. That's a body slam. Momentum going up... then plastered into the earth (propelled by a two handed fist to the back, or whatever, a slam is a slam). Far different from say this;

Which Logan soaked without trouble. That punch I might agree was pulled. Though there is nothing to suggest a Namor, after getting gutted, would pull his punch when obviously in dire straights enough to jump into the pool. Conversly, Wolverine smirking and ridiculing Namor's notion that Wolverine's strike was a 'clumsy' attempt to kill him speaks volumes;

If anything, the banter "who you calling clumsy" might suggest both were more horsing around than going all out on one another. Boys will be boys and alla that ...but it certainly Logan saying "I ain't clumsy when it comes to killing, if I wanted to gut you proper, you would have been gutted proper".

@Doombert said:

Hiya Buckshot! I've been a major forum lurker for some time now and love your posts! I've always wanted a chance to debate with you on something that I felt I actually knew something about! Ill give it my best! Be gentle!

1. I do concur that the post IS in favor of Wolverine. After all...it's originally taken from a Wolverine respect thread. The cheap shots comment you made can be seen going either way. Now let's be honest...some of them you cant argue were cheap. I'm not arguing that Logan also tagged him under unfair situations. You are 100% correct. However none of them resulted in a KO. Certainly if Logan got ONE truly cheap shot in and his goal was to kill/finish Namor his knowledge of anatomy in general, coupled with his claws could definitely put him down. Why didnt he? It's simple. Wolverine doesnt KO people. He kills them. He would never be permitted to kill someone like Namor! 2. Using objects to fight with is certainly fair, the post says dropping a building on him isnt fair. A building is not part of his normal gear and in this situation nothing says that a building is available for him. I see it like giving Andre the Giant a crowbar in a fight with Gary Coleman. In terms of overall strength this situation I just posted is certainly more fair than the one you are thinking of, and still it makes me cringe!

You bring up how Wolverine isn't allowed to kill someone like Wolverine but you seem to not extend that both ways. Do you think for a second Namor would be allowed to kill Wolverine? And please don't act like ALL Wolverine can do is kill. He's a skilled enough fighter and good enough person to beat people without killing them. He's done it plenty of times. As for what Namor might be able to use in a fight, even assuming there are no buildings, there is always plenty Namor can use. There are always some objects lying around. Even in an open field though it would not be difficult at all for Namor to fly into the ground (like he does before he one shots Wolverine outside the X-Mansion) and pick up a huge chunk of ground and crush Wolverine with it. There is always mass that Namor can use to hit Wolverine with. In every situation (unless you think they're fighting in space).

@Doombert said:

@progenitor said:

I'd have to give my vote to Namor here. Not only is Namor capable of nearly one-shotting Logan, but Namor has the ability of flight and incredible speed. Due to past confrontations and how they've ended, if these two locked horns, I believe that Namor would come out the victor.

Namor's feats of speed are not more than Wolverines in terms of blitz fighting. Their past confrontations have always ended with some kind of outside interference. As far as one shotting Logan, he has never one shotted a fully rested Logan, and this may give some insight on how Logan's healing factor works, specifically in a one shot KO scenario.

Namor doesn't need a literal KO to take down Wolverine. He's perfectly capable of incapacitating Wolverine with one attack, as he showed when they fought at the X-Mansion when he downed Wolverine because he wouldn't stop fighting. He's also showed that he can hit Wolverine so hard that he stays down for a few panels. He can also take either opening to hit him in the head more, which would result in a longer KO like the Hulk showed.

@Ramtha07 said:

@god_spawn said:

@Doombert:

Namor's feats of speed are not more than Wolverines in terms of blitz fighting

Namor doesn't need to be faster in terms of blitzing speed, if anything their relatively close in speed with Logan might being faster in running. And Wolverine may be a blur to human in speed bursts, but that doesn't mean he would be a blur to Namor. Namor is also a pretty fast flier which if he actually uses it in the fight properly he can keep Wolverine off balance.

.

Their past confrontations have always ended with some kind of outside interference

.
Most of their fights also involved some kind of plot device.

As far as one shotting Logan, he has never one shotted a fully rested Logan, and this may give some insight on how Logan's healing factor works, specifically in a one shot KO scenario

He's never hit Wolverine as hard as he could and still managed to crush all his organs in a single hit.

That his was a body slam to the pavement. Not a punch. Two very different types of attacks. And honestly, Namor was pissed off. He was not holding back when he body planted Logan like that. There is nothing to suggest that he was holding back and far more to suggest he wasn't given the context of that fight. Fact is, even after Logan landing an admittedly sloppy blow (the smirk and his comback both suggest Logan finds the idea of him hitting sloppy by accident a ridiculous notion) Namor needed a dip in the pool to stay in the game.

There is simply more to suggest that Logan was not going for the killing blow in that skirmish. It's ridiculous to point to Namor 'holding back' and ignore Logan impaling Namor in a 'sloppy' fashion. Fact is, a master martial artist wants to land a mortal wound, he ain't gonna hit sloppy.
Where I agree, Namor can KO Wolverine, Logan has every tool at his disposal to kill Namor should it come to that in a hand to hand skirmish.

Namor was pissed off yet he wasn't yelling or screaming? He had on his calm prince attitude, there was no rage there. I mean, you've seen Namor angry right? He comes flying at his enemy yelling Imperious Rex. He doesn't stop to look at the set up, work around a problem instead of just trying to go through it, and then silently dispatch his foe before critiquing his insult. Namor doesn't hide his rage well so I don't really know how you see that as him not holding back. In any case though, its closer to how he'd fight without plot holding him back. I think he'd be laying down even more damage if he actually weren't holding back, but when he did there was good enough to show that when he wants to put Wolverine down, he's perfectly capable. Now, I don't think Logan was going for the killing blow in that situation either, but point it, he only got his shot in (serious or not) when Namor was extending a hand to help him up, while Namor got his hits in once when Wolverine's claws were inches from his face, and then when Wolverine had plenty of time to see him coming through the ground around the pool. Both times Wolverine was aware that violence was coming (unlike when he suckerpunched Namor) and couldn't stop it. I actually forgot his second hit. He got that hit in after Wolverine stabbed him and before he went into the water. Wolverine couldn't stop or avoid that one either. I'm not sure why it matters if it was a slam or punch, I wasn't reading thoroughly, Namor can do that anywhere so it's not like he can't do it in a random fight. I think the idea that he wasn't holding back is ridiculous though, given that he can lift hundreds of thousands of tons but Wolverine's impact wasn't even very deep.

In my opinion, a "straight fight" between the two of them looks more like what happened at the end of their fight than any of the others. Namor was fresh out of water, he used his speed, he used his strength, he used his flight, he used his intelligence, but he wasn't bloodlusted or anything like that. He may not have gone all out (different from bloodlusted just to make that clear), but he wasn't holding back a ton either. He was in character and fought with an appropriate amount of strength (or only a little less). Now, I'll admit that Wolverine might not have been as fresh as possible, but he only got hit twice and they weren't even significant hits. He got punched onto a roof and punch into a wall. Neither was very hard and he's used to that kind of damage before things even get good. Given that he had time after he hit the roof (Namor didn't get there right away and there was some talking) and after he hit the wall (he went to the pool and closed it and then Namor didn't move right away) he was probably healed to about full strength. In that scenario, with them both fresh or at least close, Namor hit Wolverine before he could do anything (as he's shown multiple times in multiple fights that he can do) and incapacitated him.

@god_spawn said:

                    @Ramtha07:  

 

That his was a body slam to the pavement. Not a punch. Two very
different types of attacks. And honestly, Namor was pissed off. He was
not holding back when he body planted Logan like that. There is nothing
to suggest that he was holding back and far more to suggest he wasn't
given the context of that fight. Fact is, even after Logan landing an
admittedly sloppy blow (the smirk and his comback both suggest Logan
finds the idea of him hitting sloppy by accident a ridiculous notion)
Namor needed a dip in the pool to stay in the game

 He was hit not slammed. If Namor actually threw him or rammed him into it, it would be a slam, he blasted him  in the back with a double axehandle which looks like a type of hit to me. Namor was ticked but he still wasn't pissed there is no reason he went all out on Logan and there is no reason he would've went all out on Logan with those hits. he created a measily little crater and if he wanted to , he could've flown straigth down at him and blasted him again and again. Namor lifts thousands of tons, right out of the water he could've done much worse. He was holding back and there was nothing to suggest he went all out. Only reason he went in the pool is because he knew couldn't keep up with Logan after being out of the water for a few days.


 

There is simply more to suggest that Logan was not going for the killing
blow in that skirmish. It's ridiculous to point to Namor 'holding back'
and ignore Logan impaling Namor in a 'sloppy' fashion. Fact is, a
master martial artist wants to land a mortal wound, he ain't gonna hit
sloppy.
Where I agree, Namor can KO Wolverine, Logan has every tool
at his disposal to kill Namor should it come to that in a hand to hand
skirmish

And nothing suggests either were going out. Logan was playing his usual BA motto and i'll swing and cut style of attacks and Namor was out of water for a few days, he isn't stupid enough to take Logan on weakened like that. I'll agree that it comes to circumstances. If Namor actually utilized his flight and speed like he should, Logan is at a disadvantage. Namor isn't a slow brick like Wolverine is used to fighting. Should Namor fight on the ground, he can lose.

                   

               

It was far more a slam than a strike I'm afraid... Namor flew up, then slammed him into the earth... whether he slammed him with an opened handed throw or a closed fisted one... it's still obviously a slam;

 

Grabs Logan... flies up...

 

 

And pastes him down face first into the pavement. That's a body slam. Momentum going up... then plastered into the earth (propelled by a two handed fist to the back, or whatever, a slam is a slam). Far different from say this;

 

 

 

 

  

Which Logan soaked without trouble. That punch I might agree was pulled. Though there is nothing to suggest a Namor, after getting gutted, would pull his punch when obviously in dire straights enough to jump into the pool. Conversly, Wolverine smirking and ridiculing Namor's notion that Wolverine's strike was a 'clumsy' attempt to kill him speaks volumes;

 

 

If anything, the banter "who you calling clumsy" might suggest both were more horsing around than going all out on one another. Boys will be boys and alla that ...but it certainly Logan saying "I ain't clumsy when it comes to killing, if I wanted to gut you proper, you would have been gutted proper".

Throws wolverine to the bottom of the ocean.

@Doombert said:

Hiya Buckshot! I've been a major forum lurker for some time now and love your posts! I've always wanted a chance to debate with you on something that I felt I actually knew something about! Ill give it my best! Be gentle!

1. I do concur that the post IS in favor of Wolverine. After all...it's originally taken from a Wolverine respect thread. The cheap shots comment you made can be seen going either way. Now let's be honest...some of them you cant argue were cheap. I'm not arguing that Logan also tagged him under unfair situations. You are 100% correct. However none of them resulted in a KO. Certainly if Logan got ONE truly cheap shot in and his goal was to kill/finish Namor his knowledge of anatomy in general, coupled with his claws could definitely put him down. Why didnt he? It's simple. Wolverine doesnt KO people. He kills them. He would never be permitted to kill someone like Namor! 2. Using objects to fight with is certainly fair, the post says dropping a building on him isnt fair. A building is not part of his normal gear and in this situation nothing says that a building is available for him. I see it like giving Andre the Giant a crowbar in a fight with Gary Coleman. In terms of overall strength this situation I just posted is certainly more fair than the one you are thinking of, and still it makes me cringe!

You bring up how Wolverine isn't allowed to kill someone like Wolverine but you seem to not extend that both ways. Do you think for a second Namor would be allowed to kill Wolverine? And please don't act like ALL Wolverine can do is kill. He's a skilled enough fighter and good enough person to beat people without killing them. He's done it plenty of times. As for what Namor might be able to use in a fight, even assuming there are no buildings, there is always plenty Namor can use. There are always some objects lying around. Even in an open field though it would not be difficult at all for Namor to fly into the ground (like he does before he one shots Wolverine outside the X-Mansion) and pick up a huge chunk of ground and crush Wolverine with it. There is always mass that Namor can use to hit Wolverine with. In every situation (unless you think they're fighting in space).

For the life of me, I cannot think of a time he (Logan) has KO'd anybody that could be considered a brick without the use of his claws, without stabing or maiming them (Thing comes to mind).  If there is more evidence than please point me to it.  Even if he beats street levelers, he hardly ever KO's.  It's the threat of being eviscerated that does it (Shang-Chi is a wonderful example of this)  Who has he KO'd (beyond the horrible Abomination encounter that was total crap)

It's not that I act like all he can do is kill, but even with his knowledge of martial arts what is he going to do with his own physical strength to Namor?  He might be able to get a nerve pinch in but beyond that?  How often do we see him go that route?   Without the use of his claws, without maiming or the threat of maiming him how on earth is he going to put him down?

I seem to recall reading an old X-Men issue where Namor takes on the X-Men & manages to dodge grab & throw Angel to oneside & then Namor makes a remark along the lines of "all that fancy stuff & skill isnt going to get u anywhere when your facing someone with my power"
Will try & find the issue & scans :-)

Namor

                    @Ramtha07 said:

@god_spawn said:

                    @Ramtha07:  

 

That his was a body slam to the pavement. Not a punch. Two very
different types of attacks. And honestly, Namor was pissed off. He was
not holding back when he body planted Logan like that. There is nothing
to suggest that he was holding back and far more to suggest he wasn't
given the context of that fight. Fact is, even after Logan landing an
admittedly sloppy blow (the smirk and his comback both suggest Logan
finds the idea of him hitting sloppy by accident a ridiculous notion)
Namor needed a dip in the pool to stay in the game

 He was hit not slammed. If Namor actually threw him or rammed him into it, it would be a slam, he blasted him  in the back with a double axehandle which looks like a type of hit to me. Namor was ticked but he still wasn't pissed there is no reason he went all out on Logan and there is no reason he would've went all out on Logan with those hits. he created a measily little crater and if he wanted to , he could've flown straigth down at him and blasted him again and again. Namor lifts thousands of tons, right out of the water he could've done much worse. He was holding back and there was nothing to suggest he went all out. Only reason he went in the pool is because he knew couldn't keep up with Logan after being out of the water for a few days.


 

There is simply more to suggest that Logan was not going for the killing
blow in that skirmish. It's ridiculous to point to Namor 'holding back'
and ignore Logan impaling Namor in a 'sloppy' fashion. Fact is, a
master martial artist wants to land a mortal wound, he ain't gonna hit
sloppy.
Where I agree, Namor can KO Wolverine, Logan has every tool
at his disposal to kill Namor should it come to that in a hand to hand
skirmish

And nothing suggests either were going out. Logan was playing his usual BA motto and i'll swing and cut style of attacks and Namor was out of water for a few days, he isn't stupid enough to take Logan on weakened like that. I'll agree that it comes to circumstances. If Namor actually utilized his flight and speed like he should, Logan is at a disadvantage. Namor isn't a slow brick like Wolverine is used to fighting. Should Namor fight on the ground, he can lose.

                   

               

It was far more a slam than a strike I'm afraid... Namor flew up, then slammed him into the earth... whether he slammed him with an opened handed throw or a closed fisted one... it's still obviously a slam;

 

Grabs Logan... flies up...

 

 

And pastes him down face first into the pavement. That's a body slam. Momentum going up... then plastered into the earth (propelled by a two handed fist to the back, or whatever, a slam is a slam). Far different from say this;

 

 

 

 

  

Which Logan soaked without trouble. That punch I might agree was pulled. Though there is nothing to suggest a Namor, after getting gutted, would pull his punch when obviously in dire straights enough to jump into the pool. Conversly, Wolverine smirking and ridiculing Namor's notion that Wolverine's strike was a 'clumsy' attempt to kill him speaks volumes;

 

 

If anything, the banter "who you calling clumsy" might suggest both were more horsing around than going all out on one another. Boys will be boys and alla that ...but it certainly Logan saying "I ain't clumsy when it comes to killing, if I wanted to gut you proper, you would have been gutted proper".

 A punch is a punch whether its to the back, balls, face or leg, He lifted in the air then hit him hard to slam him into the ground with a double axe handle, it was neither a throw nor a ramming effect but a strike that had enough force to make a crater resulting a slam like attack so say it was a mix, Logan was hit hard enough to be slammed happy? Or perhaps since i did martial arts and wrestling i just have a different notion of what the difference between a hard enough strike, and an actual throw  or ram slam.Anyways before we get off topic on what type of hit it was, Wolv was plastered in the cement. the end result is the same. Why should Namor have hit him with all he's got in the first place? he wasn't there to fight. The only reason he jumped in the water was because he knows he isn't stupid enough to fight Logan after being out of the water for days. He didn't hit him as hard as he could because he didn't want to kill him, he wasn't there to fight. He hit him hard to enough to incapacitate him for a few moments. If you want me to bring up  fights where Logan says he's ticked but loses easily i can bring up some up *cough* X-23* cough.If Namor wanted him  KO'd he wouldve followed up that last attack until Logan was KO'd. Logan was at his mercy after he retreated to the water. Neither were going to the best of their abilities at all. Logan was sloppy, and Namor could've done a lot worse if he wanted to after coming out of the water which again he had to because he isn't stupid enough to fight him at a weakened level. He has the strength and speed to winAgain this fight IMO depends on circumstances, location morals etc.

                   

               

Yes, you're correct, it was a slam (like I said) made even more vicious with a blow to the back for added momentum. There was no mixing of words there. Guess we can say he drove him up, then pummeled him into the earth with a mighty blow... whatever. This is bordering on arguing over semantics. But it was no simple strike.
Namor jumped into the water to heal from being stabbed by the Wolverine. You can only guess that he'd been out of the water for days. How do you know he'd been out of the water for days? Did I miss him saying so or something?

Namor hitting Wolverine with all his might won't kill the Wolverine. Namor knows this. And I have to say that you know this too. I can quote you arguing these same points. Wolverine tagging Namor with intent to kill however... that's another story. Given that, who was more likely pulling their punches? C'mon ... I know you can't seriously believe Namor was afraid of hitting Logan so hard he'd kill him??

The fight finished because Logan was obviously incapacitated from that final blow (I won't argue that... it is obvious) and the small fact that Professor X intervened. Namor wanted Logan out of the fight ... he certainly didn't want him swinging his claws up in his face again.

Fact is, likely both were pulling punches as it were. Point is, Namor would KO or incapacitate going all out. Logan would kill. I don't think anyone here could pretend Namor risks killing Logan with an unrestrained punch... the inverse of this in not, however, the case. Again, who needs to pull punches the most between the two?

Definitely the Wolverine.

Imperious Rex FTW

@castleking: I was initially thinking Namor but that scan is pretty convincing. I think Wolverine has a good chance to win. If his blades can pierce the hulk, who's speed, durability, and strength surpasses Namor, Logan definitely has a chance. 

 Namor has barely given Logan a fight and he was wearing his hydro suit and he needed a dip in the mansion pool to recharge from the licks Wolverine gave him..without the water constantly recharging him, Namor gets ko'ed/killed cause his healing factor isnt enough to keep up with the damage Logan can and will inflictin one encounter US Agent had to interfere and rescue Namor from being killed by Wolverine.in another Namor states that he knows he cant beat wolverine.in another Wolverine tells Namor he is faster than Namor and slashes across namor's body to intimidate him before Namor could react and begrudgingly doesnt argue the point.. 

Well I'm giving it to Namor the King of Atlantis. Wolverine winning is pretty much the writers favoriting him and not wanting his rep deadened. Many marvel chars could kill wolverine without much haste, but he's a favorite, so he gets to live on with a new tweak of power every other issue it seems. If Wolverine can be knocked out/subdued by human standards than why exactly can't Namor just one hit crit him in the dome and be finished with it? A 10 ten second count is a knock out and him getting up is basically the equivalent of namor getting thrown into a large body of water after being hit hard. He'll keep coming back and Namor would eventually get bored or just beat him to where it'll take a while for him to get up. Namor's speed+ strength+ skills on how to fight = One hell of a punch, but if writers did the fight Wolverine would probably win because he's a favorite. Kinda how like Batman can take on Superman with a kryptonite ring even though Supes doesn't have to be any where close to Bats to kill him. Writers tend to use favortism in some of the more unequal fights. Wolverine is the poster boy of the X-men even though he wasn't even an original x-man-3-. Shit happens.

Namor.

Namor without making the fight circumstantial.

Namor, i don't care how good of a healing factor he has, Namor has lifted oil rigs, one punch from him would k.o Logan

Namor, i don't care how good of a healing factor he has, Namor has lifted oil rigs, one punch from him would k.o Logan

@Erik: i didn't say Namor wouldn't get roughed up, but i see it like this  if Logan can get close enough to cut him, Namor can get close enough to punch him, a stab from wolverine would hurt, but a punch from Namor would kill

A punch from Namor would not kill. Namor is not as strong as Hulk outside the water and Wolverine takes hits from Hulk without dying nearly every time they meet. 

@The Stegman:  
Not sure how it is relevant how long Wolverine lasted. Their fights rarely end with a clear winner and Wolverine has only been knocked out twice to my knowledge. Never has he been killed.  
 
Being a thinker (which is not really true about Namor anyway) does not make his punches better.  
 
Attacking from the air does not make his hits more lethal.  
 
Wolverine has stabbed Namor twice before. Never has it caused him trouble. In fact, in the one I can remember, Namor had to run to a body of water just to win. 
 
One hit will not KO Wolverine. He lacks the strength to do it in one. Hulk does not even do it in one. 

• Great and what are you basing this on? Because it sure is not the fights themselves. Out of all the fights they had, Wolverine only actually lost two. 
• Namor does not know Wolverine's weak spots and Namor almost ALWAYS charges in. Read almost any of his fights anywhere. 
• No. The air does not make them more lethal. Besides that, the force added by gravity is negligible. It will literally make no difference in this fight. 
• Yeah and Namor had a hard time wrestling with Steve Rogers. Which is exactly why we disregard PIS. And no, Wolverine taking Hulk level hits is not PIS. He does it more often than the rare occasion when a human level blunt force hurts him. So if we use logic and reason, the showings that you would bring forth would be disregarded. 
• LMAO! Did you even read that fight in the scan you posted? Wolverine beat Namor twice in that fight and both of Namor's minions before Namor sucker punched Wolverine from behind as Wolverine walked away. 

God I hate Wolverine 

probably namor by KO

Still Namor. Repeating myself now. He's shown in almost all of his previous fights with Wolverine that he's fast enough to get the first hit (even get in multiple hits first) and he's shown that he has the strength to put Wolverine down (for long enough to count for a KO or to give him a significant opening for follow-up shots) with one hit. Wolverine is able to inflict damage on Namor, but Namor's speed allows him to strike first and his strength allows him to end the fight before Wolverine can. And, flight and strength mean Namor can effortlessly pin Wolverine beneath hundreds of tons if he decides not to fight him directly.

Namor.