#1 Posted by King Saturn (225106 posts) - - Show Bio
Can The Sub Mariner and She Hulk defeat Wonder Man and Thing in a battle on the California west coast near the Pacific Ocean ?

caption
caption
caption
caption
#2 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

Tough one..but I'm going to go with Namor and She-Hulk.

Moderator
#3 Posted by Precise (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm with Vance on this one, for me, the deciding factor is that the fight takes place near the ocean. Thing still needs breath right? He is too heavy to float or quickly make his way out of the water. If Namor gets him in the water and She-Hulk and Namor team up against Wonder man it's over.

But that's a lot of 'if's'. It could go either way, but i'm going for team one.

#4 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio
Precise said:
"I'm with Vance on this one, for me, the deciding factor is that the fight takes place near the ocean. Thing still needs breath right? He is too heavy to float or quickly make his way out of the water. If Namor gets him in the water and She-Hulk and Namor team up against Wonder man it's over.

But that's a lot of 'if's'. It could go either way, but i'm going for team one."
As Namor can fly it would make more sense for Wonderman, who can also fly, to take him on.
Wonderman does not need to breath either.
#5 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

The deciding factor for me here is..Namor and She-Hulk are the most skilled and most intelligent in this fight.Jen is far smarter than them all but Namor fairly smart.Not to say that Simon and Grimm are particularly stupid but more times than not She-Hulk and Namor have been shown to outsmart people...and Jen has been shown to use different combat techniques she learned..and The Thing and Wonder Man basically just pound on people until they fall.

Moderator
#6 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"The Thing and Wonder Man basically just pound on people until they fall."
From the entry for the Thing from the OHTMU,

Abilities: The Thing is a brilliant pilot of aircraft. He has had a great deal of experience at hand-to-hand combat, and was a formidable opponent in physical combat even before becoming the Thing.

Now from the Marvel Universe site,

"He is uniquely gifted in the art of hand-to-hand combat (a skill Ben honed long before he became the Thing), though his fighting style tends to be a rather loose brawling technique all his own."

The Thing is an exceptional hand to hand fighter. He began his training in the Air Force and fighting along Marines. This great skill is one reason that he could engage the Champion of the Universe all that time ago in hand to hand combat. It is also a reason that he can still fight an angry Hulk even though the Hulk is a lot stronger. His fighting prowess is exceptional.

As for Wonderman nhe has improved his fighting skills. Does he still hit things mostly till theyr drop ? it mostly appears so but he is still a very experienced hand to hand fighter.

Of the 4, I think only Namor would equal the Thing in combat ability. She Hulk and Wonderman are both less skilled.
#7 Edited by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio
the creator said:
"Vance Astro said:
"The Thing and Wonder Man basically just pound on people until they fall."
From the entry for the Thing from the OHTMU,

Abilities: The Thing is a brilliant pilot of aircraft. He has had a great deal of experience at hand-to-hand combat, and was a formidable opponent in physical combat even before becoming the Thing.

Now from the Marvel Universe site,

"He is uniquely gifted in the art of hand-to-hand combat (a skill Ben honed long before he became the Thing), though his fighting style tends to be a rather loose brawling technique all his own."

The Thing is an exceptional hand to hand fighter. He began his training in the Air Force and fighting along Marines. This great skill is one reason that he could engage the Champion of the Universe all that time ago in hand to hand combat. It is also a reason that he can still fight an angry Hulk even though the Hulk is a lot stronger. His fighting prowess is exceptional.

As for Wonderman nhe has improved his fighting skills. Does he still hit things mostly till theyr drop ? it mostly appears so but he is still a very experienced hand to hand fighter.

Of the 4, I think only Namor would equal the Thing in combat ability. She Hulk and Wonderman are both less skilled.
"
Creator..You and I both know Ben Grimm isn't as smart as She-Hulk or Namor..In fact he doesn't even seem to be smarter than Johnny Storm.She-Hulk has outsmarted Iron Man on occasion.
Ben Grimm is also not uniquely gifted at anything even if the handbook says so...when was the last time you seen him in a fight and he did something other than grapple or punch?
The Thing broke the Champions ribs and then got man-handled..She-Hulk actually beat the Champion...and was trained by Gamora who I believe is the best female fighter in Marvel.
Wonderman isn't the worst h2h fighter but he's not as good as She-Hulk or Namor...both have alot more battle experience and training
She-Hulk,The Thing,and Namor I believe in the handbook are all classified level 4 which means they have some type of skill but they aren't really masters of anything which is true...She-Hulk isn't a master of any martial art and neither is Namor or the Thing..however..She-Hulk has shown her combat skill time and time again actually using nerve attacks,her agility,some speed and different types of kicks and punches all in unison with her intellect.Namor has alot of military experience and experience with fighting superhumans from being and Invader..he's also the oldest person here so I think all those years of fighting would have given him an edge in experience.Not to mention She-Hulk is the strongest here.
Moderator
#8 Posted by LightBright (4297 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor and She-Hulk.

#9 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:

#10 Posted by Sling Shot (3562 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor beats them all and then dates She-Hulk. "

#11 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio
the creator said:
"Vance Astro said:

Creator..You and I both know Ben Grimm isn't as smart as She-Hulk or Namor..In fact he doesn't even seem to be smarter than Johnny Storm.She-Hulk has outsmarted Iron Man on occasion.
Being smart does not mean to say that you will always win in a battle scenario. Many smart people fail in battle because they over analyse a situation.
Street smarts and battle experience can be more important.

Ben Grimm is also not uniquely gifted at anything even if the handbook says so...when was the last time you seen him in a fight and he did something other than grapple or punch?
The same can be said for most powerhouse characters. Very rarely do they actually get to show hand to hand fighting in their superhuman forms.
My quotes were simply to show that making a case for 1 character does not present all the facts for both sides of thre argument.

The Thing broke the Champions ribs and then got man-handled
He stood toe to toe with the Champion and held his own for a while. He keep coming back against a far stronger, more durable, faster reaction and better trained opponent.
Yes he got beat but the Champion said that he was the wothiest adversary he had encountered in a long time.
This was also at a time when the Champion was portrayed as he was inteded to be, as a genius fighter who has studied all the fighting techniques from across many galaxies and was thus quite probably the best fighter alive.
Here's the info on him from that time,

Strength Level: The limits of the Champion's strength are not known. In Earth's gravity, he can lift (press) at least 100 tons. His strength derives from the channeling of cosmic energy for physical use.

Known Superhuman Powers: The Champion controls the power primordial, the energy derived from the Big Bang itself. He has channeled this power into the development of his physical form: his musculature, his reflexes, his stamina, and his strength, while the exercise of human strength taps electro-chemical energies of the complex molecules in the body, the Champion's strength taps cosmic nuclear energies. His physical strength is only determined by the amount of cosmic energy his finite form can contain. This limit has yet to be seen. He apparently never tires since his body has the ability to tap whatever energies it needs to recuperate. He cannot be hurt by any means short of molecular dispersion. Having channeled all of the cosmic energy as his command into making his body a perfect fighting machine, the Champion can no longer direct that energy from his body into force-blast as many other energy manipulators can.

Abilities: The Champion has mastered untold thousands of different martial arts and fighting styles culled from across the known Universe, and spends the majority of his time between championship matches practicing these arts.


..She-Hulk actually beat the Champion...and was trained by Gamora who I believe is the best female fighter in Marvel.
She Hulk beat the Champion when he was beuing portrayed more as a bully, who gets angry and slips up, rather than the controlled sensei fighter he began life as.
She Hulk had also trained heavy for this fight to amplify her strength (in her human form).
Apparently most of this extra strength in her human form has now been lost so it may be that he strength as She Hulk is not at the peak that it had been.
Again, although she has recieved training from an exceptional fighter, she does not show it all the time in her fights, but usually only when needed.

Wonderman isn't the worst h2h fighter but he's not as good as She-Hulk or Namor...both have alot more battle experience and training
Then in these 4, who is worse ?
Wondermna can also claim to have been on the same team as Capt America and so is likely to have had some training but he does not really use it in combat. Perhaps it is because he did not have these fighting skills prior to becoming Superhuman and so he has never really had any need to put those skills to use. The Thing has on many occasions reverting to human form - to make use of his skills and as a member of the airforce had many times engaged in hand to hand fighting using boxing, wrestling and some martial arts.

She-Hulk,The Thing,and Namor I believe in the handbook are all classified level 4 which means they have some type of skill but they aren't really masters of anything which is true...She-Hulk isn't a master of any martial art and neither is Namor or the Thing
Why should the source you just quoted (OHOTMU power grids) be able more realistsic than the oness I quoted.
Both could be considered subjective.

..however..She-Hulk has shown her combat skill time and time again actually using nerve attacks,her agility,some speed and different types of kicks and punches all in unison with her intellect.Namor has alot of military experience and experience with fighting superhumans from being and Invader..he's also the oldest person here so I think all those years of fighting would have given him an edge in experience.Not to mention She-Hulk is the strongest here.
And the Thing was fighting exceptional hand to hand fighters like Thundra before Jenifer even finished Law school (and so long before she becam She Hulk).
Just because writers and artists did not draw the Thing +displaying fancy blocks and the like does not mean that he does not use advanced fighting skills. Just look at the trail of villians in his wake to see how successful he has been.
The Thing has a lot of military experience as well, more than anyone else apart from Namor.
Namor is likely the best fighter here, but I think the Thing is second.
As for She-Hulk being the strongest, Wonderman might challenge her there."
1.When I say She-Hulk is smart I mean in combat.I have never seen The Thing have any sort of battle strategy...All he does is say..It's clobbering time and then he punches the target.When She-Hulk fought Absorbing Man..instead of just pounding on she tricked him causing him to absorb water and take away his own solid form.
2.She-Hulk only pounds on someone when no strategy is needed..The Thing and Wonder Man either beat the crap out of their opponent or they don't.Iron Man couldn't outsmart Ultron so Wonder Man crushed his head.The Thing and Wonder Man are all brute strength.I have seen She-Hulk use different techniques...even her agility and speed to dodge lasers and to block projectiles.

3.Even though I don't really agree with She-Hulk beating the Champion but against him she did show she knows her way in combat.Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time.She Hulk wasn't just trained by one exceptional fighter she was trained by several including Captain America.She-Hulk rarely has to use her skills because she is so much stronger than her enemies....but more times than Wonder Man or the Thing..she shows she can do more than she punch hard.

4.Captain America trained all of the Avengers in h2h but he only personally trained Iron Man,Hawkeye,She-Hulk,Rick Jones and The Falcon.Wonder Man has not had the level of training of She-Hulk nor does he have the experience of Namor.In fact he was made to look foolish in h2h combat by Adam Warlock.The Thing has only been shown to use skill as Ben Grimm..he has fought people that complete clobbered him including Wonder Man because he had no strategy.With the Thing it's either you overpower him or he overpowers you.

5.Thundra is far weaker than the Thing and She-Hulk has faced a large list of exceptional fighter's including Drax the Destroyer,Titania,Ares,Super-Skrull and so on.And lets not forget Wonder Man is the only one here she hasn't beaten yet.The Thing has Military experience but She-Hulk has SHIELD experience..to me SHIELD experience is more valuable because of the level of training and enemies SHIELD has to take down as opposed to regular humans in a  war.Namor is not the best fighter here...She-Hulk has proved that to him herself on more than one occasion and she is the strongest here as well.Wonder Man is nowhere near She-Hulk's strength.She is the only hero who I have seen punch people within her strength range into other countries and cities.I have seen her easily knock out Thor..a feat even her cousin has trouble with and she gets stronger with rage while Wonder Man has not proven to get stronger.As a member of the F4 She-Hulk proved to the Thing she was stronger than him he even said "Sheesh,Shulkie..do you have to do that one-handed..here I am the idol of millions bein' up staged by a girl." She even arm wrestled Hercules and claimed he was giving it all he had and she let him win.
Moderator
#12 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
".Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time."
That's kind of an oxymoron, Vance. If she can dodge them that means she is faster than people who are faster than her...

WTF???
#13 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio
AtPhantom said:
"Vance Astro said:
".Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time."
That's kind of an oxymoron, Vance. If she can dodge them that means she is faster than people who are faster than her...

WTF???"
No it doesn't...Spider-Man dodges bullets..he can move faster than the bullet can get to him but he's not faster than the bullet.
Moderator
#14 Posted by King Saturn (225106 posts) - - Show Bio
Hmm.... I am starting to lean towards Namor and She Hulk winning here too
#15 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio

Vance Astro said:

#16 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Creator

1.Tricking someone so that they absorb water and delete themselves from the battle is a greater feat than using the water yourself to put their flame out.Leading soldiers is all well and good but neither Ben Grimm or the actual leader of the F4 Reed Richards have been slated as great leaders.I have seen the Thing yell it's clobbering time..rush in punching and get completely knocked out.It is very rare that the Thing avoids getting his stones busted because he decided to use his head.

2.She-Hulk would finish her fights quicker but that would be bad for the comic...however she also pounds on people sometimes instead of using her head because she likes to hit people.That is her MO.She likes to fight is out.She-Hulk on the Avengers used her head more times than not at all.In fact she used her head more in Avengers than in her actual books.She even at one time showed Cap how smart and how well she could use his shield in a training session.Most of the time in her books she fights people in her strength range that aren't very smart and aren't as strong as her so not pounding on them would be pointless.She-Hulk once fought the Invaders by herself and led each and everyone of them into a trap,Namor was the last person left standing so she just knocked him out.She knew Ms.America was a little faster than her but wasn't very strong so she stood her ground making Ms.America come to her and end up hurting herself trying to give She-Hulk her best shot..Then the Whizzer who is far faster than her tried to attack,she dodged him causing him to run into a tree,than she allowed Human Torch (Jim Hammond) and Toro to get close to her than she tipped a truck full of sand on them,Namor being the last one left standing..She Hulk just knocked him out.

3.Daredevil isn't slated to have peak human agility or speed yet he has dodged punched from superhumans and outmaneuvered superhuman master acrobats like Beast and Spider-Man.So with that said I don't think She-Hulk's agility and speed have to be at peak human or superhuman for her to put them to good use.In fact the fact she is below peak human makes her feats even more incredible.She-Hulk weighs 700lbs and has been seen somersaulting over Abomination before he could lay a hand on her.

4.I never said that the Thing can't used what he learned I'm saying he doesn't.He has already fought She-Hulk and lost in fact She-Hulk has beaten the entire F4 and Avengers.She just complete destroyed a skrull with all the F4's powers as well.The Thing used some wrestling tactics against Green Scar Hulk but that only kept him standing for a little while longer..he still got knocked out.

5.I will give you that Thundra is an exceptional fighter and thought the Thing to be a worthy adversary..but She-Hulk hasn't beaten better fighters.

6.Wonder Man is class 100 but She-Hulk has always been shown to have strength feats far above anything Wonder Man has done....When She-Hulk knocked Thor out he was trying to restrain her she was unaware of what was going and Thor didn't want her to hurt anyone..she broke his grip,elbowed him in the face and then punched him out of a window leaving him dazed.She-Hulk doesn't lose her intellegence unless she becomes Savage like in Avengers:Dissasembled or against the Hulk.She doesn't really need nor would she get that mad in this fight because she's already stronger than everyone without doing that.
Moderator
#17 Posted by Duke Checkmate III (361 posts) - - Show Bio
Kick Ass Jen
Destroys the Champion
Drop Drax
Agility and Skill
Agility and Skill
Skill with weapons
Upstaging the Thing
Throws arm-wrestling with Herc
Easily dodges the Whizzer
#18 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"AtPhantom said:
"Vance Astro said:
".Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time."
That's kind of an oxymoron, Vance. If she can dodge them that means she is faster than people who are faster than her...

WTF???"
No it doesn't...Spider-Man dodges bullets..he can move faster than the bullet can get to him but he's not faster than the bullet."
Yeah, but the definition of being faster and having faster reflexes is that you can dodge people slower than you, but that you can hit them.
#19 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio
AtPhantom said:
"Vance Astro said:
"AtPhantom said:
"Vance Astro said:
".Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time."
That's kind of an oxymoron, Vance. If she can dodge them that means she is faster than people who are faster than her...

WTF???"
No it doesn't...Spider-Man dodges bullets..he can move faster than the bullet can get to him but he's not faster than the bullet."
Yeah, but the definition of being faster and having faster reflexes is that you can dodge people slower than you, but that you can hit them."
True but even though She-Hulk is slower than these people she is still able to dodge them.As seen above..,the Whizzer who moves at mach speeds was unable to hit She-Hulk..she dodged causing him to run into a tree.My point is that even though someone may be faster than you..you could possibly dodge a punch or two.
Moderator
#20 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio

Vance Astro said:

#21 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio
Duke Checkmate III said:
"
Kick Ass Jen
Destroys the Champion
Drop Drax
Agility and Skill
Agility and Skill
Skill with weapons
Upstaging the Thing
Throws arm-wrestling with Herc
Easily dodges the Whizzer
"























































Image 1: That's a good example of Jen using her martial arts skills. As you have already mentioned, Ben Grimm has also been shown to use more advanced hand to hand skills in his human form (than simply hitting someone). Has Jen ever used such advanced combat skills in her She-Hulk form other than the example below (Image 5) ?

Image 2: Judging by the look of Drax and his and She-Hulk's costume, that would seem to be the 1st incanation of Drax. This Drax was only rated at 50 tonnes. She-Hulk at the time was rated at 75 tonnes. Therefore it shows little apart from she could 'punch' her opponent.

Image 3: Firstly her beating the Champion in such a manner is absurd. He knows more about hand to hand fighting techniques that any other living being, which includes Gamora and Capt America. He has studied thousands upon thousands of fighting styles from across the known galaxy and mastered them all. Secondly, he actually has a far faster reaction time than her and superior agility and yet we see him not being able to block her blows - totally absurd. Thirdly since he is virtually indestructible, I really don't see hurting him much - but he is shown completely bloodied. Finally we again see that she has put on massive amounts of muscle mass (her arms are significantly bigger). Since her return to earth, she appears to have shed this extra muscle mass (her arms are slimmer now). As the basis for her ramp in strength for this fight was to put on additional muscle mass in her human form, so it would be multiplied in her superhuman form, the loss of this mass should therefore logically signify that she is not as strong as she was at the time of this comic.

Image 4: As you said, She-Hulk flips over the Abomination. A nice example of her atheletic prowess and agility.However this was against a large lumbering brute and the Abomination's comment, "After all you nare no Hulk" was clearly showing his overconfidence. He was expecting her to simply go in punching. This illurstrates the point I tried to make with regards to her fighting skills. In reality she would use them most of the time as it would enable quicker takedowns of her opponents. She does not for the simple reason of the writer. I think the smae argument can be made for the Thing. He has been stereotyped quite a bit as a 'Bruiser'. You yourself said that all he does is shout "It's Clobbering Time !" and wade in when he has so much more available.

Image 5: Good example of She-Hulk using her learned combat skills. However, it seemed to do little to the Abomination (unlike the fight in Image 1).

Image 6: A nice example of She-Hulk using a weapon from the local environment. However the Thing has also used weapons in a similar manner that include I-beams, cars and a tarmac and concrete road (whipping it to hit his foe who was flying).

Image 7: I know that She-Hulk is stronger than the Thing. I would argue with the fact that she can now hold the same weight as the Thing with just 1 arm though.

Image 8: As for beating Hercules at arm wrestling - I put that one right up there with beating the Champion at boxing - as absurd. Hercules is one of the strongest beings in Marvel (who is not a galactic cosmic entity) who can accomplish feats of strength that most others would have no hope of achieving. Was Hercules really trying (to be honest) ?

Image 9: The Whizzer was meant o be one of the slower Marvel's speedsters. Here's some info on him in his prime,

"His bones contained unknown materials significantly more durable than calcium to withstand the dynamic shocks of his feet touching the ground at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour.

The Whizzer's practical reaction time was about four times faster than an ordinary human being's when the Whizzer was in his prime, and the speed at which his brain processed information was heightened to a level commensurate with his bodily speed."

Looking closely at the picture, the Whizzer seems to be focussing his attention away from She-Hulk and more to his left (as he sees it) to target the goons. She made an innocent move and left her foor out, in his running path. His diverted attention mean he simply tripped himself up or that is my interpretation.

#22 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@ The Creator

1.I think it shows more skill to cause someone to hurt themselves rather than leading them into a trap where you have to finish the attack.The Human Torch isn't very smart..he has been lead into this same water trap by Namor,Spider-Man and Daredevil.

2.I know you didn't say Reed or Ben were great leaders but showing SOME leadership skill isn't enough to say The Thing has a tactical mind good enough to take down Namor or She-Hulk.

3.I don't believe Hercules or even Thor are good fighters.Marvel claims they are exceptional fighters with years and years of experience..but they don't give them good rating for fighting skill in the handbook.

4.She-Hulk was just additional muscle until Cap trained her.She-Hulk was often criticized  for going overboard with her strength.Cap taught her how to put it to good use and work well with a team.

5.I mentioned what She-Hulk did with Cap's shield to say she is a fast learner in combat.It took her only to watch Cap do it one time and she had it.

6.It wasn't until She-Hulk's recent volume that she began actually showing how skilled she is in every fight.I have seen her use her skills against Starfox,Absorbing Man,Iron ManTitania,and Abomination just to name a few.Against Absorbing Man she she was able to find weak spots in the chain to his wrecking ball and break it and weaknesses in the substances he was turning into and eventually caused him to absorb water which wouldn't allow him to retain a solid form.

7.The fight against the Invaders was in one of She-Hulk's comics (I'm not sure the issue number).The tactics she used are similar to the one that you described the Thing using but instead of one person she lead 4 different people in a row into a trap.When Namor came into the fight he was fresh out of the ocean..he attacked her from behind..stomping her into the ground..she got mad and took him out with one hit.Namor has always shown to have no chance against her...He flew into her once and was knocked out.

8.I never saw the handbook label Daredevil peak human at anything but assuming he is..it is still quite a feat for She-Hulk with her size and height to be able to pull of acrobatic maneuvers.The Abomination is slow but he has been shown to hold his own and even get the best of her cousin whom she has never beaten.She not only took Abomination out easily..she was almost playing with him..showing her weapon skill and jumping ability.Abomination is slow but people about that slow have been able to at least get of a hit...he wasn't able to.

9.Even if the Thing does use the skills he has learned I don't think he is more skilled than She-Hulk...he has never shown tactics on her level.Yes he has Military experience but I think training from SHIELD trumps that...experience means little to nothing in Marvel.Wolverine who is not only a master of all styles but has years and years of experience has always struggled with characters like Deadpool (who was only trained by the Military and Weapon X),Daredevil,Gambit,The Punisher and so on and so forth.Other than the Military training...The Thing has only trained himself as a boxer and wrestler.Who do you think would be the better fighter...The person who was trained by someone who has trained many exceptional fighters and "The Most Dangerous Woman in the World" not to mention the best Espionage organization in the world..A person who has shown to use what she has been taught...Or The person who was trained by the military,grew up a street fighter and taught himself Boxing and wrestling...but has only been show to use these tactics very rarely,even sometimes in fights he has lost?

10.She-Hulk fought the Thing and the F4 without Sue in a Heroes for Hire comic actually and when she took out the Avengers she was Savage and looking for the Hulk.The Soldier Skrull she fought with the F4's powers was only seen using Reed,Johnny and The Things powers.It is not know if he actually had Sue's powers because she took him out so quickly.

11.The Thing used some skill against the Hulk but some skill would have come in handy many times when he has been taken out easily.When Doom beat the F4...The Thing was pounding on him and pounding on him and pounding on him...not doing any real damage but he just kept punching.Doom had something in his gauntlet for him all along.Took him out in one move.

12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100.

13.Your right..Wonder Man is closer to She-Hulk's strength level but She-Hulk has proven to completely obliterate class 100 opponents on several occasions.

14.How could Thor not be expecting someone he is trying to restrain to attack him?

15.I'm not saying She-Hulk doesn't need to get mad to get stronger even though her training for the Champion and before she arm-wrestled Herc would suggest she has done some training to increase her strength.With that said She-Hulk still does get mad increasing her strength but she doesn't lose control unless she becomes Savage and it takes alot to get her to that level.
Moderator
#23 Posted by Alpha (7331 posts) - - Show Bio
"12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100."

Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.

She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
#24 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio
Alpha said:
"
"12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100."

Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.

She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
"
I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned.
I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone.
Moderator
#25 Posted by Alpha (7331 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Alpha said:
"
"12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100."

Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.

She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
"
I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned.
I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone.
"
Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem.
 I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.

As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win.
#26 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio
Alpha said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Alpha said:
"
"12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100."

Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.

She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
"
I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned.
I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone.
"
Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem.
 I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.

As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win."
Adam Warlock beat him in one punch and Ronan stomped him in the ground.Thanos beat him but he was basically using The Champion's stupidity against him.
She-Hulk has shown feats far above anything Wonder Man has ever done.
Moderator
#27 Posted by Alpha (7331 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Alpha said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Alpha said:
"
"12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100."

Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.

She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
"
I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned.
I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone.
"
Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem.
 I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.

As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win."
Adam Warlock beat him in one punch and Ronan stomped him in the ground.Thanos beat him but he was basically using The Champion's stupidity against him.
She-Hulk has shown feats far above anything Wonder Man has ever done.
"
I have to admit that I haven't seen She-Hulk beat anyone  (outside  her silly book) of real power. Wonderman nearly beat the entire Avengers team that included Thor when he was a weaker character (90 tons) and couldn't fly. He also beat Namor (who just emerged from the ocean) when he was weaker.

Thanks for the info on Champion.
#28 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio
Alpha said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Alpha said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Alpha said:
"
"12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100."

Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.

She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
"
I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned.
I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone.
"
Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem.
 I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.

As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win."
Adam Warlock beat him in one punch and Ronan stomped him in the ground.Thanos beat him but he was basically using The Champion's stupidity against him.
She-Hulk has shown feats far above anything Wonder Man has ever done.
"
I have to admit that I haven't seen She-Hulk beat anyone  (outside  her silly book) of real power. Wonderman nearly beat the entire Avengers team that included Thor when he was a weaker character (90 tons) and couldn't fly. He also beat Namor (who just emerged from the ocean) when he was weaker.

Thanks for the info on Champion."
Outside She-Hulk's book she hasn't beaten Namor several times,She has beaten Dionysus the god of wine who is fairly strong for a god of something so lame,She has knocked down the 60 ton living Monolith in Avengers,She has beaten Absorbing Man and Titania at the same time in Heroes for Hire,She has not formally beaten Thor but she did beat Thunderstrike with no problem.
No problem on the info on Champion.He is possibly the best fighter in the Universe but his down fall is his intellect.
Moderator
#29 Posted by The 502 Kid (3793 posts) - - Show Bio
LightBright said:
"Namor and She-Hulk."
#30 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
#31 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Creator

1.Johnny Storm is smarter than Absorbing Man yet he hasn't been defeated with the same tactic 4 times.

2.Namor's leadership skills complete trump whatever Grimm has shown.As King of Atlantis he has had to lead his people through war and make tough decisions regarding there existance.

3.Herc has shown to be one of the best if not the best wrestler in the Marvel U..however Marvel themselves don't seem to give him a great rating for fighting skill.Someone like Wolverine not only has the years of experience but was trained and master different arts which is why I believe Herc isn't slated as such a good fighter.He's mostly all experience and strength.Ben Grimm taught himself to box and to wrestle...As I said before...hours upon hours of training of the self mixed with hours upon hours of training by great fighters trumps years of military training and hours upon hours of self-training.This proves evident in comics all the time.

4.Cap didn't train She-Hulk to pull her punches but to control her strength...in doing things such as choking characters out so she doesn't end up punching them into anything causing building collapses,throwing enemies intro each other or even using enemies as weapons as she displayed against the Hulk..using Dragon Man has a weapon to smash the Hulk into walls.

5.Most people don't know how to find a weak spot in a chain..until you told me just now I didn't know lol.

6.She-Hulk has beaten Namor in 3 different titles including and Avengers comics where she didn't even touch him.Some of their fights lasted longer than one punch but she humiliates him everytime.

7.The tactics She-Hulk used against Abomination did piss him off but it would have been all the same if she was just pounding on him...getting hit pisses him off.They were necessary and beating him.Thundra may have used similar tactics but the fact the Thing outclasses her in strength and durability probably contributed to him beating her.She was getting some pretty good shots in so Imagine how well She-Hulk would do against him with the skills she has and being stronger than him..

8.I'm not saying that the Thing hasn't used fighting skill against the Hulk..I know that is the only way he can keep up.She-Hulk and the Thing are classified on the same level of fighting skill in the handbook because it goes by mastery of styles.They both know several different styles but are not masters of anything.

9.I don't happen to have scans from the comics where she fought the F4..if you need scans of her owning the Super-Skrull I do have those though.I have been getting my She-Hulk scans together lately but I don't have a scan reference of every fight.She-Hulk fought the Avengers twice...Once after Heroes Reborn and once when the West Coast Avengers were first created (She lost that fight thanks to Photon).

10.Doom didn't have a forcefield up when the Thing was pounding on him.He was punching his armor...he even stomped him through several floors of an office building.He could clearly see Doom wasn't hurt and kept punching..Doom turned his back and then unleashed a beam from his gauntlet taking the Thing out instantly.

11.Adam Warlock has never been beaten in h2h combat..Not by Thor..Not by Drax..Not by the Champion.Thor couldn't even beat him armed with Mjolnir.He literally overpowered Drax and The Champion..choking Drax until he blacked out and literally pounding the Champion into the ground like a hammer on a nail.He knocked out Wonder Man too while fighting the X-men.I would agree Thunda is a better fighter than She-Hulk but she doesn't have the strength to back it.

12.Yes..She-Hulk has "obliterated" class 100 opponents outside her own book.

A.Namor-Avengers,F4,Defenders
B.Dragon Man-Avengers,Incredible Hulk,F4
C.Absorbing Man-Heroes for Hire
D.Titania-Heroes for Hire,Avengers
E.Xemnu-Iron Man

13.If My friend was She-Hulk a giant green woman who has been known to be uncontrollable when angry..Yes,I would expect her to hit me.

14.The Champion wasn't portrayed as dumb in his fight with She-Hulk he was betrayed as a ruthless bully.In their first fight she didn't even get off a hit.He completely owned that fight.
Moderator