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#1 Edited by AmazingScrewOnHead (704 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort and his forces have just taken Hogwarts and killed or captured all hostiles

He goes on to conquer the muggle world, Muggles all resources available to them, they have a basic knoledge of who voldemort is as they did in films/novel

Can voldemorts plan work? or would he and his men just get gunned down by a squad of SAS or Navy seals?

#2 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort stomps.

#3 Posted by ImmortalT1000 (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

Magic.

#4 Posted by spacerodan (58 posts) - - Show Bio

Ms Rowling herself said at one point in a battle between a wizard and a muggle with a shotgun the muggle would win (hagrid is the exception not the rule), and hinted that wizards usually have the element of suprise to give them the edge.

Either swatt wins or as a last ditch, muggles evacuate the country and since most pureblood wizards (Voldemorts supporters) know next to nothing about muggles, they have a nuke dropped on them and literally won't know what hit them.

#5 Posted by Ultra_Girl_ (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

Muggles stomp,

#6 Posted by YoungJustice (6791 posts) - - Show Bio

Muggles, but it'd be a nice fight.

#7 Posted by roboadmiral (544 posts) - - Show Bio

Muggles can, at minimum bury the wizards in bodies, no tactics. I'd be surprised if the wizarding community broke 5 million in population. There are billions of muggles. There just aren't enough wizards.

#8 Posted by Jackiechanmonroe (4 posts) - - Show Bio

Muggles stomp easily. Countless ways to do it, actually...

#9 Posted by Huey_Freeman34 (1535 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort solos...

#10 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio
#11 Posted by RBT (4137 posts) - - Show Bio

No way Muggles are winning. Even if they decide to nuke a general area where Voldy is, he can simply apparate out of there. There are many ways Voldy can win this. He's actually a very strategical person. He'll probably had his Death Eaters imperius important muggles like presidents and Army heads like he did to Wizarding World. Even in a straight on fight, he'll be very hard to kill. With his frequent apparation, disillusionment charm, fiendfyres and killing curses.

#12 Posted by GraniteSoldier (7535 posts) - - Show Bio

Killing curse gets stopped by non-magical barriers like walls and doors, I wonder if kevlar could do the trick? Anyway bullets travel faster than those spells, and wizards aren't bullet-timers. Soooo....

However if wizards ambush strike, muggles will take massive, massive casualties.

Online
#13 Edited by Mayan_Fist (664 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless the US military engineers a machine that lets them see through dark magic, the Death Eaters stomp any efforts that they make.

#14 Posted by EvilDuckling (137 posts) - - Show Bio

Nuke solos

#15 Posted by Jack_ (1539 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort and his Death Eaters would proceed to Obliviate all knowledge of the wizard world from the highest ranking members of the government before major fighting could begin, have them pass the whole thing off as a hoax, and proceed to rule the world in secret.

#16 Posted by EvilDuckling (137 posts) - - Show Bio

Lots of the wizards just laugh at muggles and think they are superior to them. I doubt they'd even know what a tank is / is capable of until they get hit by a shell.

#17 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

No way Muggles are winning. Even if they decide to nuke a general area where Voldy is, he can simply apparate out of there. There are many ways Voldy can win this. He's actually a very strategical person. He'll probably had his Death Eaters imperius important muggles like presidents and Army heads like he did to Wizarding World. Even in a straight on fight, he'll be very hard to kill. With his frequent apparation, disillusionment charm, fiendfyres and killing curses.

He isn't going to see a nuke coming. Voldemort and wizards in general don't know how to fight. Voldemort can get shot with a missile faster faster then he can see. Nuclear landmines exists. (No kill like overkill) They can really do shit to a tank . Voldemort has no way of defending or knowing about a simple sniper a mile away shooting him.

Death eaters can be stopped by mundane and advanced traps in places they are expected to go. Important people can simply hide.

In a straight fight with us knowing about them, wizards get curb stomped. Inferior tactics, arrogance, lack of knowledge of muggle weapons. And our info gathering makes this a win for us.

#18 Posted by Redmonkeyssj4 (837 posts) - - Show Bio

Overwhelming numbers, nuff said.

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#19 Posted by oceanmaster21 (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

Muggles Stomp

#20 Edited by Gymgoer205 (91 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by Hollow_Point (467 posts) - - Show Bio

I see the muggles taking very heavy casualties early on, and the wizards and witches having a few victories, but eventually, the muggles will turn the tide and slaughter the magic users

#22 Posted by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

Magic users can make a big shield like at the battle of Hogwarts, and use spells to alert them of muggles presense and attacks, and can use occlumency and polyjuice potion to learn their plans. And if the wizards/witches are surprised they can use tickling charms or something like that to beat muggles. I don't see muggles winning.

#23 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Magic users can make a big shield like at the battle of Hogwarts, and use spells to alert them of muggles presense and attacks, and can use occlumency and polyjuice potion to learn their plans. And if the wizards/witches are surprised they can use tickling charms or something like that to beat muggles. I don't see muggles winning.

Shield went down eventually.

Disguises are easily countered.

They have to know where the information is and even then, not much they can do.

That's a good idea. The other person can have a good laugh while the wizard is still and cold on the ground, the upper portion of his skull blown away from buckshot or a sniper. Yeah. Tickling. That'll work.

Muggles stomp any kind of direct confrontation and we can easily keep information from them.

#24 Posted by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: shield went down due to voldemort and voldemort alone. they have no voldemort.

How can they counter polyjuice potion?

It doesn't have to be tickling even though its impossible to aim while laughing, it can be a torture charm or a disarming spell or anything. Plus they can apparate.

wizards can alert themselves to snipers and stuff like that too. If the wizards don't know they're coming muggles win but if the wizards no muggles die

#25 Posted by Gymgoer205 (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Muggles stomp, too many and much better equipped.

Tank > avada kedavra

#26 Posted by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@gymgoer205: hard to hit someone who apparates (teleports)

#27 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@draciosv: shield went down due to voldemort and voldemort alone. they have no voldemort.

How can they counter polyjuice potion?

It doesn't have to be tickling even though its impossible to aim while laughing, it can be a torture charm or a disarming spell or anything. Plus they can apparate.

wizards can alert themselves to snipers and stuff like that too. If the wizards don't know they're coming muggles win but if the wizards no muggles die

And their is nothing that says kinetic energy cannot bring the shield down. always a price for magic.

Wizards would not know who to copy or how to get anywhere near the people to copy in our world. We can just watch important people at all times or give them sensors. If they take only the appearance of the person and cant get near him to access info. Then their screwed. Most of our government you can't see. You can also do retinal scans and DNA scans. A lot of things are secure.

Your spells don't work when someone takes cover, and then shotgun is going to blow them apart faster then they can flip their wand. Any head to head fight, we'll win easily especially with a soldier having better reflexes, tactics and use of cover rather then mindless charging.

Nope. Even if wizards can alert themselves. They is literally nothing they can do about a lot of things. Like a cruish missile. Or a MOAB. Or someone shooting them within a few hundred feet with anything. Even if they know they are coming, they don't necessarily know when, from where, or how they are coming. They can't do anything to a sniper they can't see. Even if they hear him, they'll confused as to his werabouts as they all slowly get picked off by people who truly do know how to wage war. There many ways for us to win fights despite them knowing we're gunning for them.

#28 Posted by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: The shield is magic, only magic can take it down. When people ran into the shield, they disintegrated. Like I said, it muggles surprise wizards they might win, if the wizards know they're coming, they're screwed.

Wizards can also control anyones mind they want to. I don't see why they wouldn't know who to target, some wizards are very in touch with the regular world. They can use invisibility cloaks and take over peoples minds to help them win as well and get close to people. But of course this is only if they have time to plan.

#29 Edited by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@draciosv: The shield is magic, only magic can take it down. When people ran into the shield, they disintegrated. Like I said, it muggles surprise wizards they might win, if the wizards know they're coming, they're screwed.

Wizards can also control anyones mind they want to. I don't see why they wouldn't know who to target, some wizards are very in touch with the regular world. They can use invisibility cloaks and take over peoples minds to help them win as well and get close to people. But of course this is only if they have time to plan.

That's an assumption. I see no evidence as to why nothing we have can't punch through it. If it vaporises solid things. Just use something that is ok being vaporized. Like say. A dirty bomb. Poison em. Or an acoustic weapon. Clearly they can hear things outside the field so it doesnt block sound...

You don't even know who to control. They're probably gonna go for the president or something. Everyone else can just make themselves scarce while they just command from somewhere where no one else knows where they are. Its not like the president or anyone has to reveal their presence to who they command. Unlike wizards, we have very effective means of communication. Ones few if any them can understand or interfere with.

Not only can you not walk with a cloak everywhere, but something as mundane as trip wires, acoustic motion sensors and various types of traps like land mines would make your advantage irrelevant. Simple, but awesome. Even if they are as in touch as you and me, they still wouldn't know where to go or how to get information. I'm pretty sure they can't just flick their wands 15 miles away and say "Come hither president.....Give to me all da secretz..."

#30 Edited by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: they can't hurt wizards with the shield up. A bomb won't hurt the shield. Its MAGIC. Don't you understand magic?? Hell, they could just make Hogwarts invisible to muggles and hide if from their view, like Hogwarts usually is. Humans can't even see or detect Hogwarts. It's hidden from muggles view and detection by magic. So they couldn't even find the wizards.

You obviously target military leasers and bases... Magic communication is far more advanced that ours. They can just read muggles minds from across countries, or wipe all humans memories. Also they would be able to detect any traps with magic.

You're right they can not mind control over huge distances but they can read minds and make people see visions of whatever they want them to over large distances. Voldemort did this many times.

#31 Posted by Gymgoer205 (91 posts) - - Show Bio

Tank > avada kedavra

#32 Edited by Gymgoer205 (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Whose mind would voldemort read? What's he going to do if while he is evading that persons attack someone else decides to attack? Can he read several minds at once? Also who besides Voldemort could read minds over vast distances?

#33 Posted by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: I would also like to add that voldemort kills muggles for fun. Whole groups of muggles at a time. He tortures them, invades their mind, and kills them for fun. Even lesser wizards have taken on muggles before

#34 Edited by deadlake (50 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know any spells that have the range of missiles so i'm gonna say muggles. They just have to spam long ranged things from miles away. However, Imperius curse + time turners could turn the tables.

#35 Posted by ltbrd (561 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv:

Wizards would not know who to copy or how to get anywhere near the people to copy in our world: Really??? Cause they seemed to have no problem placing Kingsley as the aide to the Prime Minister of England without anyone noticing. Which means he had to pass a crap ton of security and background checks and in his position had access to every major player in the British government. So if they can do that in one country why exactly could they not do that in another? The entire point of Kingsley being there was so the Prime Minister would not come under Voldemort's control through mind control.

We can just watch important people at all times or give them sensors: Of course the ones watching them could be witches and wizards given my point above.

If they take only the appearance of the person and cant get near him to access info: If a witch or wizard takes the form of a person they'll need a piece of that person so the likely odds are that they have them and thus can extract information from them. Even if we aren't talking mind control Voldemort and his followers have no problem with torture.

Then their screwed. Most of our government you can't see: I'm not really sure which government you think you're referring to because every major leader and player in politics in the world are known, shown on t.v. almost daily, followed by press all the time...should I go on?

You can also do retinal scans and DNA scans. A lot of things are secure: of course polyjuice potion transforms a person completely into another person (side note: why is it that Barty Crouch sounded exactly like Mad Eye and the seven Potters all sounded alike but Harry and Ron didn't sound like Crabbe and Goyle and Hermione didn't sound like Beautrix???? The proficiency of the potion maker possibly???) so why wouldn't that include retinal or fingerprint? Also, there is no device that scans for DNA....that is an extensive lab process that technology doesn't allow to happen by pressing your finger on a pad.

Your spells don't work when someone takes cover: Really? Fiendfyre seemed to do pretty well destroying the entire Room of Requirement. Not much room to hide when you're in the middle of an inferno. No much use cover when a spell can simply blow that cover and the surrounding area apart.

and then shotgun is going to blow them apart faster then they can flip their wand: Considering the fact adult wizards perform the majority of their magic without invocation or the need for much wand movement the spell is cast nearly as fast as the witch or wizard can think which is going to beat the physical act of pulling the trigger on a shotgun or any hand-held weapon for that matter.

Any head to head fight, we'll win easily especially with a soldier having better reflexes, tactics and use of cover rather then mindless charging: Because no witch or wizard has ever used cover in battle....like say the cafe fight between Harry, Ron, Hermione and two Death Eaters. Or Harry's team in the Department of Mysteries running from Malfoy's group? Or the battle between Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix after that? Or most of the close-in fighting during the Battle of Hogwarts? And of course no soldier or group of soldiers ever charge into a situation.....nope, every soldier is a highly trained SEAL/Delta/Black Ops expert with the exact same level of training and proficiency. And of course the magical community doesn't have Aurors and law enforcement personnel trained and experienced in combat....that would be crazy.

They is literally nothing they can do about a lot of things. Like a cruish missile. Or a MOAB: Of course there is nothing Muggles can do about any spell a witch or wizard can cast. At least against conventional arms the witch or wizard can leave the area, generate a shield, or.....shocking as this would be.....shoot the missile down or search for mines disrupt the landscape to search for mines. A missile doesn't fly faster than the human eye can see it.....in fact most missiles are detected by the sight of their launch flash, smoke trail, or other visual means before radar will pick them up (you're free to argue this point with my if you'd like....I've only been trained for 10 years on how to defend Naval vessels against missile attacks....of course you can just watch CNN or Fox News and see camera footage of missile taking off or flying over Israel or Gaza these days and see the visual signs for yourself) so while a Muggle would be screwed seeing a missile inbound to him/her a witch or wizard isn't as defenseless.

Even if they know they are coming, they don't necessarily know when, from where, or how they are coming. They can't do anything to a sniper they can't see. Even if they hear him, they'll confused as to his werabouts as they all slowly get picked off by people who truly do know how to wage war: and of course it would be impossible for the magical community to create a spell, if they don't already have one, which would protect them from a bullet. They figured out how to survive being burned at the stake by making the flames tickle vice burn. I can see them being surprised at first but once that is done and they negate the advantage what then? Muggles have no defense against magic. Of course I haven't even delved into the number of ways witches and wizards know to make themselves invisible and undetectable to each other let alone Muggles. Hard to kill something you can't see or even know is there.

You keep coming back to this idea that the magical community doesn't know how to wage war when the books are filled with wars that witches and wizards have fought right under the noise of muggles. all the wars against the goblins, the two wars against Voldemort, great battles like Dumbledore versus Grindleward (think I spelled that wrong).....they don't live in some Utopian society that has forgone violence for the last millenium. They've had they're conflicts just as the Muggle world as.

This entire debate comes down to two big points:

1) Who has the better intelligence on the other side. Answer: the magical community. They've been misdirecting Muggles for centuries and not just through magic. They know how to hide, how to move around in plain sight, who the leaders are, how to get to them. You name it. Yes, most witches and wizards don't understand Muggle society.....they fact they don't know Muggle currency has absolutely nothing to do with knowing their military or intelligence capability.

2) Who can best defend themselves from the other side. Answer: the magical community. Muggles have ZERO DEFENSE AGAINST MAGIC. On the other hand the magical community has shown it can operate against Muggle means of security and have devised spells in the past to protect themselves from harm or Muggle persecution. So even if the Muggles gain an advantage in one battle they could lose it in the next through spell creation.

Nukes are a laughable consideration. You're never going to get a group to stay in one location long enough to effectively employ a nuke. This isn't Starcraft. We can't keep a Ghost invisible and 30 seconds later a bomb drops from the sky. Yes, tactical missiles can be used that way but you'll never get enough opponents in one shot to make it effective. This is why these types of attacks are conducted against immobile, ground targets....bunkers, factories, cities, etc. Not troops moving through a region that can scatter the impact sight. That's not taking into consideration magical shielding.....remember, Voldemort's forces were bombarding the shield with hundreds of spells for awhile before he finally took the thing out. It had already been weakened. A single missile strike may not take out the wizard encampment and if not all they have to do is apparate to a new location and the strike resulted in nothing.

The issue of tanks was brought up.....another weapon that is not a practical means of fighting small troop forces. Tanks were designed as siege breakers and then modified to combat other tanks. They can shield troops but aren't a first weapon against opposing foot-based forces. Plus, while the Killing Curse may not do anything to it the books alone have discussed spells that can blow apart walls, take out buildings, the movies showed two or three Death Eaters tearing about a bridge...combine that with invisibility, shielding, and other magical advantages and the tank doesn't seem so great anymore.

The only potential advantage Muggles have is based around electricity and electrical fields. As noted in the books too much electrical wiring and the resulting electrical fields play havok with magic. Not negate it, just mess with it. So that's something at least but not a concept that would be apparent because the Muggle world is not aware of magic and so hasn't had centuries, like the magical community has the Muggle world, to study it and determine a weakness.

Of course this post isn't just a reply to your comments but to anyone on this thread that thinks the answer is as simple as "drop a nuke" or "they won't see our snipers" and that's the end of it. Looking at everything presented in both book and film the overwhelming evidence is that the magical community is far more capable in a war between magical and muggle, has had more time to study their enemy, knows more about their enemy, knows how to hide intelligence from the enemy, knows how to hide from the enemy, and can adapt their arsenal to counter the tactics of the enemy far better. Neither side is adapt at fighting the other but at the same time both sides have combat capable personnel.

The only advantage to Muggles is numbers because the only true way for Voldemort to wage war on the Muggle world is to have the entire magical world behind him, which would never actually happen. He'd be fighting a two pronged war. He may have won the Battle of Hogwarts and secured Britain but the entire rest of the magical community spread around the globe, including the other Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry, would either have to fall in-line with him or he'd spend years conquering them first and then constantly fighting off resistances.

This is where the Rowlings' story falls short in the concept that Voldemort is some world-wide threat. His presence is barely felt in Europe let alone the rest of the world. We never get the sense of just how much more organized the wizarding world is outside of the British Ministry of Magic (aside from a few mentions of dealing with one other Ministry) nor what the other areas of the world think of Voldemort's ideology. Thus is threat to the entire human population is made mute by just how much his actions have actually affected the world at large.

In the end his best move would be to take control of various governments and initiate a Third World War. Get the Muggles to kill each other down to a manageable level while he conquers the magical community. When the world has exhausted itself from battle it would more openly accept someone who could, from a Muggle perspective, perform miracles and provide the protection and conditions to live in peace albeit as second class citizens, if not worse. Rowlings skimmed this idea when presenting the idea of ruling Muggle's for their own good that Dumbledore and Grindleward shared in their youth with the timeframe of their conflict fitting into the time period of the Second World War. If we look at how Voldemort is portrayed through the series this is a philosophy he tends to share as well but implements more aggressive means to achieve it to the point where his Death Eaters lock into an idea of simply wiping out Muggles and take pleasure in doing it.

But I digress from the thread topic at hand.

#36 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@ltbrd said:

@draciosv:

Wizards would not know who to copy or how to get anywhere near the people to copy in our world: Really??? Cause they seemed to have no problem placing Kingsley as the aide to the Prime Minister of England without anyone noticing. Which means he had to pass a crap ton of security and background checks and in his position had access to every major player in the British government. So if they can do that in one country why exactly could they not do that in another? The entire point of Kingsley being there was so the Prime Minister would not come under Voldemort's control through mind control.

We can just watch important people at all times or give them sensors: Of course the ones watching them could be witches and wizards given my point above.

If they take only the appearance of the person and cant get near him to access info: If a witch or wizard takes the form of a person they'll need a piece of that person so the likely odds are that they have them and thus can extract information from them. Even if we aren't talking mind control Voldemort and his followers have no problem with torture.

Then their screwed. Most of our government you can't see: I'm not really sure which government you think you're referring to because every major leader and player in politics in the world are known, shown on t.v. almost daily, followed by press all the time...should I go on?

You can also do retinal scans and DNA scans. A lot of things are secure: of course polyjuice potion transforms a person completely into another person (side note: why is it that Barty Crouch sounded exactly like Mad Eye and the seven Potters all sounded alike but Harry and Ron didn't sound like Crabbe and Goyle and Hermione didn't sound like Beautrix???? The proficiency of the potion maker possibly???) so why wouldn't that include retinal or fingerprint? Also, there is no device that scans for DNA....that is an extensive lab process that technology doesn't allow to happen by pressing your finger on a pad.

Your spells don't work when someone takes cover: Really? Fiendfyre seemed to do pretty well destroying the entire Room of Requirement. Not much room to hide when you're in the middle of an inferno. No much use cover when a spell can simply blow that cover and the surrounding area apart.

and then shotgun is going to blow them apart faster then they can flip their wand: Considering the fact adult wizards perform the majority of their magic without invocation or the need for much wand movement the spell is cast nearly as fast as the witch or wizard can think which is going to beat the physical act of pulling the trigger on a shotgun or any hand-held weapon for that matter.

Any head to head fight, we'll win easily especially with a soldier having better reflexes, tactics and use of cover rather then mindless charging: Because no witch or wizard has ever used cover in battle....like say the cafe fight between Harry, Ron, Hermione and two Death Eaters. Or Harry's team in the Department of Mysteries running from Malfoy's group? Or the battle between Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix after that? Or most of the close-in fighting during the Battle of Hogwarts? And of course no soldier or group of soldiers ever charge into a situation.....nope, every soldier is a highly trained SEAL/Delta/Black Ops expert with the exact same level of training and proficiency. And of course the magical community doesn't have Aurors and law enforcement personnel trained and experienced in combat....that would be crazy.

They is literally nothing they can do about a lot of things. Like a cruish missile. Or a MOAB: Of course there is nothing Muggles can do about any spell a witch or wizard can cast. At least against conventional arms the witch or wizard can leave the area, generate a shield, or.....shocking as this would be.....shoot the missile down or search for mines disrupt the landscape to search for mines. A missile doesn't fly faster than the human eye can see it.....in fact most missiles are detected by the sight of their launch flash, smoke trail, or other visual means before radar will pick them up (you're free to argue this point with my if you'd like....I've only been trained for 10 years on how to defend Naval vessels against missile attacks....of course you can just watch CNN or Fox News and see camera footage of missile taking off or flying over Israel or Gaza these days and see the visual signs for yourself) so while a Muggle would be screwed seeing a missile inbound to him/her a witch or wizard isn't as defenseless.

Even if they know they are coming, they don't necessarily know when, from where, or how they are coming. They can't do anything to a sniper they can't see. Even if they hear him, they'll confused as to his werabouts as they all slowly get picked off by people who truly do know how to wage war:and of course it would be impossible for the magical community to create a spell, if they don't already have one, which would protect them from a bullet. They figured out how to survive being burned at the stake by making the flames tickle vice burn. I can see them being surprised at first but once that is done and they negate the advantage what then? Muggles have no defense against magic. Of course I haven't even delved into the number of ways witches and wizards know to make themselves invisible and undetectable to each other let alone Muggles. Hard to kill something you can't see or even know is there.

You keep coming back to this idea that the magical community doesn't know how to wage war when the books are filled with wars that witches and wizards have fought right under the noise of muggles. all the wars against the goblins, the two wars against Voldemort, great battles like Dumbledore versus Grindleward (think I spelled that wrong).....they don't live in some Utopian society that has forgone violence for the last millenium. They've had they're conflicts just as the Muggle world as.

This entire debate comes down to two big points:

1) Who has the better intelligence on the other side. Answer: the magical community. They've been misdirecting Muggles for centuries and not just through magic. They know how to hide, how to move around in plain sight, who the leaders are, how to get to them. You name it. Yes, most witches and wizards don't understand Muggle society.....they fact they don't know Muggle currency has absolutely nothing to do with knowing their military or intelligence capability.

2) Who can best defend themselves from the other side. Answer: the magical community. Muggles have ZERO DEFENSE AGAINST MAGIC. On the other hand the magical community has shown it can operate against Muggle means of security and have devised spells in the past to protect themselves from harm or Muggle persecution. So even if the Muggles gain an advantage in one battle they could lose it in the next through spell creation.

Nukes are a laughable consideration. You're never going to get a group to stay in one location long enough to effectively employ a nuke. This isn't Starcraft. We can't keep a Ghost invisible and 30 seconds later a bomb drops from the sky. Yes, tactical missiles can be used that way but you'll never get enough opponents in one shot to make it effective. This is why these types of attacks are conducted against immobile, ground targets....bunkers, factories, cities, etc. Not troops moving through a region that can scatter the impact sight. That's not taking into consideration magical shielding.....remember, Voldemort's forces were bombarding the shield with hundreds of spells for awhile before he finally took the thing out. It had already been weakened. A single missile strike may not take out the wizard encampment and if not all they have to do is apparate to a new location and the strike resulted in nothing.

The issue of tanks was brought up.....another weapon that is not a practical means of fighting small troop forces. Tanks were designed as siege breakers and then modified to combat other tanks. They can shield troops but aren't a first weapon against opposing foot-based forces. Plus, while the Killing Curse may not do anything to it the books alone have discussed spells that can blow apart walls, take out buildings, the movies showed two or three Death Eaters tearing about a bridge...combine that with invisibility, shielding, and other magical advantages and the tank doesn't seem so great anymore.

The only potential advantage Muggles have is based around electricity and electrical fields. As noted in the books too much electrical wiring and the resulting electrical fields play havok with magic. Not negate it, just mess with it. So that's something at least but not a concept that would be apparent because the Muggle world is not aware of magic and so hasn't had centuries, like the magical community has the Muggle world, to study it and determine a weakness.

Of course this post isn't just a reply to your comments but to anyone on this thread that thinks the answer is as simple as "drop a nuke" or "they won't see our snipers" and that's the end of it. Looking at everything presented in both book and film the overwhelming evidence is that the magical community is far more capable in a war between magical and muggle, has had more time to study their enemy, knows more about their enemy, knows how to hide intelligence from the enemy, knows how to hide from the enemy, and can adapt their arsenal to counter the tactics of the enemy far better. Neither side is adapt at fighting the other but at the same time both sides have combat capable personnel.

The only advantage to Muggles is numbers because the only true way for Voldemort to wage war on the Muggle world is to have the entire magical world behind him, which would never actually happen. He'd be fighting a two pronged war. He may have won the Battle of Hogwarts and secured Britain but the entire rest of the magical community spread around the globe, including the other Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry, would either have to fall in-line with him or he'd spend years conquering them first and then constantly fighting off resistances.

This is where the Rowlings' story falls short in the concept that Voldemort is some world-wide threat. His presence is barely felt in Europe let alone the rest of the world. We never get the sense of just how much more organized the wizarding world is outside of the British Ministry of Magic (aside from a few mentions of dealing with one other Ministry) nor what the other areas of the world think of Voldemort's ideology. Thus is threat to the entire human population is made mute by just how much his actions have actually affected the world at large.

In the end his best move would be to take control of various governments and initiate a Third World War. Get the Muggles to kill each other down to a manageable level while he conquers the magical community. When the world has exhausted itself from battle it would more openly accept someone who could, from a Muggle perspective, perform miracles and provide the protection and conditions to live in peace albeit as second class citizens, if not worse. Rowlings skimmed this idea when presenting the idea of ruling Muggle's for their own good that Dumbledore and Grindleward shared in their youth with the timeframe of their conflict fitting into the time period of the Second World War. If we look at how Voldemort is portrayed through the series this is a philosophy he tends to share as well but implements more aggressive means to achieve it to the point where his Death Eaters lock into an idea of simply wiping out Muggles and take pleasure in doing it.

But I digress from the thread topic at hand.

I've gone this entire argument assuming a wizard is perfectly capable deflecting a bullet. But magic stays pretty inert. Since it isn't science, you cannot simply say "welll they can develop this and that." It's magic. What's to say someone can flick his wand and turn every person into turnips.....so well. I only go off what they have shown themselves capable of doing.

Have fun trying to cast you spells when your shot because in a direct fight someone can pull a trigger much faster then you can pull a wand. Or worse yet utter a phrase. Wizards aren't helpless against a gun but if they run across eachother in a corner then well the guy with the shotgun doesnt even need to think.

Fire has so many counters it isnt even funny. Even then, in a small room, he or she is just going to get gunned down in fractions of a second. Wizards suck at a distance.

Depends on the missile whether or not you can see it. Something like an RPG moves 650 mph yeah of course you can see. Something like those cruise missiles. No....you don't see that you can't see easily. Rarely does anything go faster then mach 2 in the atmosphere. Cruise missiles can even render alot of our own defences pretty much obsolete. Wizards stand even lesss of a chance. If they have general knowledge of Voldemort.

People know about some wizards. They work with people. If stuff gets out, the media can shatter the masquerade in a heartbeat and the goverment, who are aware of wizards, can constantly devices counters and make contingencies. Some people are in touch with muggles but not a lot of wizards are. Only so many wizards would actually have knowledge to actually know how to counter muggle tech.

My point basically is, they will lose any type of direct fight or confrontation because we have better weapons and tactics. Something like the killing spell isn't new, and we have a much greater range then they do/ They're going to try to run and find we like to shoot a lot of deadly things and a wizard can normally only parry one or two spells. And fighting a wizard's masquarade isn't impossible. It is overall pretty in the favor of the muggles in my opinion.

#37 Posted by RBT (4137 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: Not true at all. I already said before that Tom is a strategist. It took him 4 years to come out in open. He first planned and ensured his victory which would have workes had Harry not survived Killing Curse yet again.

Tom is not going to be found. Even if he does, he would have Death Eaters warn him about nukes and such. His hatred for muggleborns aside, he'd have no problem hiring a few as DEs to get advantage over Muggles. Snape was a half blood and he was hired as a Death Eater because he was important. An inside man. Apparation can be done intercontinental. Those Fidelous charm are very very useful. Voldy could literally be inside White House and no one would know. Throw an muggle repellent charm and done.

As for taking down a tank, you are forgetting about Reducto. Or Bombarada. Both can tear metal apart. Or a simple confundus charm fired at the commander and they'd be firing at themselves. Annnd don't forget that technokogy starts to malfunction near magic. Believe me, Muggles won't be able to do squat if Voldy let a couple of Nundus loose. They might be able to eventually kill it, but think about the epidemic. All wizarda have to do is apparate at a place, start a fiendfyre and disapparate.

#38 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@ltbrd: You can learn how to shoot guns in an afternoon. Any marine is going to muck a wizard up because they simply have better tactics and weapons that if used right, cannot be dodged. Army is just regular people, I know people in the army. But they have enough sense to know how to take cover. Not everyone is a sniper but there. Of course wizards are trained, but they are trained to fight other wizards, and the final battle of harry potter has them running at each other. Had they tried to do that to a group of men in the final battle, they wouldn't have made it across the bridge. Non of them. You would think they'd have some type of formation or something and just instakill everyone from a range at howarts. But appearently. They couldn't do that.

@rbt said:

@draciosv: Not true at all. I already said before that Tom is a strategist. It took him 4 years to come out in open. He first planned and ensured his victory which would have workes had Harry not survived Killing Curse yet again.

Tom is not going to be found. Even if he does, he would have Death Eaters warn him about nukes and such. His hatred for muggleborns aside, he'd have no problem hiring a few as DEs to get advantage over Muggles. Snape was a half blood and he was hired as a Death Eater because he was important. An inside man. Apparation can be done intercontinental. Those Fidelous charm are very very useful. Voldy could literally be inside White House and no one would know. Throw an muggle repellent charm and done.

As for taking down a tank, you are forgetting about Reducto. Or Bombarada. Both can tear metal apart. Or a simple confundus charm fired at the commander and they'd be firing at themselves. Annnd don't forget that technokogy starts to malfunction near magic. Believe me, Muggles won't be able to do squat if Voldy let a couple of Nundus loose. They might be able to eventually kill it, but think about the epidemic. All wizarda have to do is apparate at a place, start a fiendfyre and disapparate.

Bombarada isn't doing anything to a tank. Reducto probably can. Although I have never seen either of them be used on anything in the world anywhere near as durable as a tank.

Electronics don't work in the wizard world. Wizards can't muck around with technology much in the real world.

Dragons and Nundus aren't a threat. The take tank weapons or anti tank weapons to the face and get insta gibbed. Only dementors are moderately frightening. But those could theoretically be see with just thermal goggles. Just look for the cold spots. A counter to their effects could be as mundane as drugs....

A fire that can't be put out by water is nothing new. We can do the exact same thing to them with regular science. Though we can't disappear.

Voldemort can get shot in the head with a gun and there wouldn't be much he could do about it. He has to parry invidual attacks and guns can be fully automatic. If we don't underestimate them, we could just shoot deatheaters on sight by detecting them through means I already mentioned. Its not even far fetched to just lure them to what they perceive as an easy target or to just feed them false information. Because everyone you see on TV is not necessarily everyone who makes the big decisions. People just know the president. Thats who they go for. That is what he is meant to be. Someone for people to go for so all the other unjust things that happen in the world can happen.

What I'm saying is, if like the OP says, the muggles as everyone likes to call us, know all about Voldemort and what he can do. The masquarade is over. Everything gets harder for wizards to do. Because if I can come up with stuff like this. Imagine what the government can come up with. They're prepared for a girlscout uprising and alien attacks, someone will pay people money to sit in a room and pitch ideas like this around.

I'll admit though. This is looking a bit more even. The wizards still lose imo a straight fight but they have some scary stuff not to be underestimated in concerns to stealth, espionage and sabotage. But I think they are still very possible to fight.

#39 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@ltbrd: They don't seem like they had good training judging from how they just kind charged eachother in the last battle for hogwarts. Try that against some people who know hot to use guns. See how that works. Wizards can't do much at a range and when we are close, guns are faster to use and faster fire rate then all the single cast spells. They aren't well trained as a whole and hardly any of them seem equipped to fight real people mentally with their arrogant elitest attitudes.

@rbt said:

@draciosv: Not true at all. I already said before that Tom is a strategist. It took him 4 years to come out in open. He first planned and ensured his victory which would have workes had Harry not survived Killing Curse yet again.

Tom is not going to be found. Even if he does, he would have Death Eaters warn him about nukes and such. His hatred for muggleborns aside, he'd have no problem hiring a few as DEs to get advantage over Muggles. Snape was a half blood and he was hired as a Death Eater because he was important. An inside man. Apparation can be done intercontinental. Those Fidelous charm are very very useful. Voldy could literally be inside White House and no one would know. Throw an muggle repellent charm and done.

As for taking down a tank, you are forgetting about Reducto. Or Bombarada. Both can tear metal apart. Or a simple confundus charm fired at the commander and they'd be firing at themselves. Annnd don't forget that technokogy starts to malfunction near magic. Believe me, Muggles won't be able to do squat if Voldy let a couple of Nundus loose. They might be able to eventually kill it, but think about the epidemic. All wizarda have to do is apparate at a place, start a fiendfyre and disapparate.

If he is found he can be shot.

Nundus gets instagibbed by tanks, anti tank weaponry or a reaper drone, which it can do nothing against. Giants and dragons are really no problem either. The only magical creature I see that can be a problem is a dementor and even then, I'd think we theoretically can see them with thermal goggles since they generate immense cold. Just look for the black void devoid of heat. (Thank you space battles.)

Deatheaters, if we just develop physical ways to detect them, like using something as simple as wiring since they aren't intangible nor would they be immune to anything pressure based or acoustic based, can be lured to many locations and killed on sight.

The point is, the muggles as we are called ultimately in my opinion would win a straight up fight. It's the masquarade where they are very dangerous. I have seen no evidence the polybius potion copies everything about the person down to DNA. Only appearance. Even then. If we start micro chipping everyone, or have people where barcodes, everything gets difficult. Government could potentially use paranoia to basically implement whatever law they wanted. Science is ever evolving and magic can only have as many abilities as the author gives it. And if wizards could death stare people it wouldnt make for an interesting story. Still, wizards are dangerous in a masquarade but not quite unstoppable. People would be fearful, paranoid. Other confident and angry. We're not inclined to sit back and just let them control us if we know about them, like the OP specified. We can very well fight back with sheer ingenuity and by not underestimating wizards like they will and do us.

#40 Posted by RBT (4137 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: Dragons won't be a threat, I agree, but Nundus will be. I mean, their breath ccauses epidemic. Dementers are invisible and can kill anyone in a blink. They might get spotted by heat goggles, but then what? They can prey on a room full of people at same time. Hardly anyone would be in any condition to do anything. And I'm not sure Dememtors can be killed. I remember reading somewhere JKR's quote that Dementors ca't be killed. Only known way to defeat them (not kill) is patronus charm which no muggle would be able to do. What would they do, throw bottles of prozac at dementors?

I do agree that in a straight fight between wizards and muggles, muggles would win if hey have pre knowledge. Main reason is that they are much more in number. Still, 10 skilled DEs vs 100 muggle soldiers. I'm willing to bet those 10 DEs would be able to take down over 40 soldiers.

As fir Fiendfyre, it is in no way like chemical fires. Chemical fires don't have a mind of its own. Fiendfyre chases all living beings and goes out only after it has burned them. It cannot be simply extinguished by cutting its supply with oxygen. Hence why water and enchanted water didn't work on it.

And what would muggles be prepared for? They just have a basic knowledge about wizards. They don't know about Dementors or fiendfyres. Why would they carry thermal goggles or fire extinguishers on their back.

Voldy can sure get shot in head but they have to find him to do that. Wizards who knew about Voldermort, has fought him before and knew about stuffs like Fiedelus charm couldn't find him when he didn't want to be found. Muggles who arr at serious disadvantage would not even know that Voldy could be in a building which they can't even see. Not to mention that Voldy can look like anyone(transfiguration). Can control anyone (imperius). Can get information out of anyone (veritaserum). In a full blown war between wizards and muggles, wizards would win. They are just way way too versatile.

#41 Posted by Jackiechanmonroe (4 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@draciosv: shield went down due to voldemort and voldemort alone. they have no voldemort.

How can they counter polyjuice potion?

It doesn't have to be tickling even though its impossible to aim while laughing, it can be a torture charm or a disarming spell or anything. Plus they can apparate.

wizards can alert themselves to snipers and stuff like that too. If the wizards don't know they're coming muggles win but if the wizards no muggles die

1. Yes, they don't have voldemort - they have nukes.
2. "wizards can alert themselves to snipers and stuff like that too" - oh, yes, I bet they can even stop a tactical bomber/fighter.

#42 Edited by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackiechanmonroe: nukes won't work. And wizards can apparate away when they see the plane flying in

Yeah they can invade the mind of the pilot and take them down and a bunch of other ways too

#43 Posted by Jayc1324 (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackiechanmonroe: they wouldn't be able to find Hogwarts anyway. Wizards would be able to see muggles but muggles wouldn't be able to see them.

#44 Posted by ltbrd (561 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: I'm enjoying how you keep coming up with these random measures(bar codes, microchips, DNA scanners) to try and counter something the Muggle world would know nothing about as though there is already intelligence for them to go off of. Your confusing the common wizard with what the wizarding community knows about Muggles as a whole. It has been clearly shown that wizarding leadership, i.e. the Ministry of Magic, knows enough of the Muggle world and its capabilities to know its politics as well as how to infiltrate its leadership. Who cares if they don't know the culture or the manners of the society. They don't need to in order to win.

I'm also getting a kick out of your contradictions.

The only magical creature I see that can be a problem is a dementor and even then, I'd think we theoretically can see them with thermal goggles since they generate immense cold. Just look for the black void devoid of heat. (Thank you space battles.): We've had a lot of battles in space to have perfected that kind of fighting have we? Is this part of your government which can hide anything and nobody knows who the actual leaders are? Of course even if we can see dementors how exactly would a Muggle fight it? A wizard requires the patronous charm as barring that no other spell or physical means can harm it so what difference does seeing the dementor make in a battle? What is the great anti-dementor weapon that Muggles could take advantage of?

I've gone this entire argument assuming a wizard is perfectly capable deflecting a bullet: Really??? so if a wizard is perfectly capable of deflecting a bullet why not ten, twenty, one hundred, one thousand bullets? You say that's an assumption yet betray that assumption by saying a wizard running at a group of soldiers doesn't stand a chance. If they are perfectly capable of deflecting the bullets (or transfiguring them or causing them to collapse on impact with a shield or transfigure the guns, or cause the guns to fly out of the hands of the soldiers, etc....) then who cares whether they run at the soldier or teleport behind them or turn invisible or anything else. A shield doesn't need to be a one-time use spell. Dumbledore cast a transfiguration shield that lasted the entirety of Voldemort's flying glass barrage. The spells Harry and Hermione put over there camp remained for days, the shield over Hogwarts didn't require constant recharging. True, one can't win a wizards duel by maintaining a shield charm alone, at some point the shield must be dropped to deliver an offensive spell. But at the same time the shield can be maintained so long as the wizard is concentrating on it which is something I'd think he'd be doing as the soldiers are shooting.

But magic stays pretty inert: I think you're confused on this. A spell cast at a target is, by its nature, not inert. Even if its only traveling within the witch or wizards line of sight it still has movement and thus range. We haven't even delved into a discussion about the ability to send a curse in the mail or the ability to charm, transform, curse, jinx or hex any object imaginable to a near unlimited number of effects. So not only would we be contending with wizards face to face but we'd also begin questioning if every day objects and materials are even usable. So the range of magical effects is not as limited as you're suggesting.

Since it isn't science, you cannot simply say "welll they can develop this and that." It's magic: Exactly! Its not science, its magic. Its a far more fluid process capable of independent imagination than the hard and fast rules of science. As a teenager Snape developed his own spells, one of which dismembers opponents. So if a magic allows a kid to have that much freedom of creation than how can it ever be argued that adult wizards could not create spell after spell to counter the tools and tactics of Muggles.

What's to say someone can flick his wand and turn every person into turnips.....so well. I only go off what they have shown themselves capable of doing: Again, Exactly! In the blink of an eye and without muttering a word Mad-Eye Moody turned Draco Malfoy into a ferret with no way for Draco to turn himself back into human form. That was against someone magically inclined. What defense does a Muggle have against that. Don't even need to kill your opponent at that point. Just turn them into something that can in no way harm you, like a turtle or a frog, and be done with it.

Your thoughts on physical means of detection are good but again you aren't going far enough in the argument. Yes, these would be means of detecting a wizard trying to walk into a secure building but its not feasible for a battlefield. Also, while stepping on a pressure plate may alert the building occupants to an intruder it does not to stop the intruder from continuing (still can't see the individual) and if the intruder is confronted there is nothing to stop him/her from simply teleporting out and returning to a safe location for another try. Of course with no way to actually stop teleportation into and out of a facility there is not an actual need to walk in and out of the facility anyways since Muggles have no counter to that particular ability.

You are correct that a Muggle military has better training and tactical thinking but you're looking at this from a conventional war stand point. As taboo as this next statement might be you have to look at a confrontation between muggle and magical as asymmetric warfare similar to what we have today of a conventional military conducting operations against terrorist cells. It is an unimaginably harder style of warfare on its own and that's without throwing magic into the mix and you add in the uncertainty of fighting an enemy a conventional force knows nothing about.

#45 Posted by D3MON (370 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadlake said:

I don't know any spells that have the range of missiles so i'm gonna say muggles. They just have to spam long ranged things from miles away. However, Imperius curse + time turners could turn the tables.

#46 Posted by DraciosV (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@ltbrd said:

@draciosv: I'm enjoying how you keep coming up with these random measures(bar codes, microchips, DNA scanners) to try and counter something the Muggle world would know nothing about as though there is already intelligence for them to go off of. Your confusing the common wizard with what the wizarding community knows about Muggles as a whole. It has been clearly shown that wizarding leadership, i.e. the Ministry of Magic, knows enough of the Muggle world and its capabilities to know its politics as well as how to infiltrate its leadership. Who cares if they don't know the culture or the manners of the society. They don't need to in order to win.

I'm also getting a kick out of your contradictions.

The only magical creature I see that can be a problem is a dementor and even then, I'd think we theoretically can see them with thermal goggles since they generate immense cold. Just look for the black void devoid of heat. (Thank you space battles.): We've had a lot of battles in space to have perfected that kind of fighting have we? Is this part of your government which can hide anything and nobody knows who the actual leaders are? Of course even if we can see dementors how exactly would a Muggle fight it? A wizard requires the patronous charm as barring that no other spell or physical means can harm it so what difference does seeing the dementor make in a battle? What is the great anti-dementor weapon that Muggles could take advantage of?

I've gone this entire argument assuming a wizard is perfectly capable deflecting a bullet: Really??? so if a wizard is perfectly capable of deflecting a bullet why not ten, twenty, one hundred, one thousand bullets? You say that's an assumption yet betray that assumption by saying a wizard running at a group of soldiers doesn't stand a chance. If they are perfectly capable of deflecting the bullets (or transfiguring them or causing them to collapse on impact with a shield or transfigure the guns, or cause the guns to fly out of the hands of the soldiers, etc....) then who cares whether they run at the soldier or teleport behind them or turn invisible or anything else. A shield doesn't need to be a one-time use spell. Dumbledore cast a transfiguration shield that lasted the entirety of Voldemort's flying glass barrage. The spells Harry and Hermione put over there camp remained for days, the shield over Hogwarts didn't require constant recharging. True, one can't win a wizards duel by maintaining a shield charm alone, at some point the shield must be dropped to deliver an offensive spell. But at the same time the shield can be maintained so long as the wizard is concentrating on it which is something I'd think he'd be doing as the soldiers are shooting.

But magic stays pretty inert: I think you're confused on this. A spell cast at a target is, by its nature, not inert. Even if its only traveling within the witch or wizards line of sight it still has movement and thus range. We haven't even delved into a discussion about the ability to send a curse in the mail or the ability to charm, transform, curse, jinx or hex any object imaginable to a near unlimited number of effects. So not only would we be contending with wizards face to face but we'd also begin questioning if every day objects and materials are even usable. So the range of magical effects is not as limited as you're suggesting.

Since it isn't science, you cannot simply say "welll they can develop this and that." It's magic: Exactly! Its not science, its magic. Its a far more fluid process capable of independent imagination than the hard and fast rules of science. As a teenager Snape developed his own spells, one of which dismembers opponents. So if a magic allows a kid to have that much freedom of creation than how can it ever be argued that adult wizards could not create spell after spell to counter the tools and tactics of Muggles.

What's to say someone can flick his wand and turn every person into turnips.....so well. I only go off what they have shown themselves capable of doing: Again, Exactly! In the blink of an eye and without muttering a word Mad-Eye Moody turned Draco Malfoy into a ferret with no way for Draco to turn himself back into human form. That was against someone magically inclined. What defense does a Muggle have against that. Don't even need to kill your opponent at that point. Just turn them into something that can in no way harm you, like a turtle or a frog, and be done with it.

Your thoughts on physical means of detection are good but again you aren't going far enough in the argument. Yes, these would be means of detecting a wizard trying to walk into a secure building but its not feasible for a battlefield. Also, while stepping on a pressure plate may alert the building occupants to an intruder it does not to stop the intruder from continuing (still can't see the individual) and if the intruder is confronted there is nothing to stop him/her from simply teleporting out and returning to a safe location for another try. Of course with no way to actually stop teleportation into and out of a facility there is not an actual need to walk in and out of the facility anyways since Muggles have no counter to that particular ability.

You are correct that a Muggle military has better training and tactical thinking but you're looking at this from a conventional war stand point. As taboo as this next statement might be you have to look at a confrontation between muggle and magical as asymmetric warfare similar to what we have today of a conventional military conducting operations against terrorist cells. It is an unimaginably harder style of warfare on its own and that's without throwing magic into the mix and you add in the uncertainty of fighting an enemy a conventional force knows nothing about.

Dementors aren't intangible. So there are what are traditionally non lethal means to contain them, things like cages, ropes or expanding foam,. Not only this but dementors affect muggles differently then wizards. All they seem to do to us is just make us depressed.

Their human limitations and the fact that well, it would have been handy for them to have that when people were shooting at them. But they don't apparently . They have to parry, and I didn't really think of them gaining new abilities because its well, magic. Because since that it's magic, you have little idea what it can and cannot do besides what the author has told you and shown that it can do. Nothing says they can't make up stuff, but nobody can really say what they can or can't make up, because it does have limitations. That much seems to be sure. So, I'm only assuming things that I have seen.

Science has laws, but it comes up with things we ourselves can barely wrap out heads around. Not only this but it is capable of leading us to things beyond ourselves and beyond our own imagination. And we can use laws to our advantage or find ways to work. There is no way of telling what they can develop and how long it will take them. For all we know, it can be years, or the same amount of time for us to develop our own technology against them. So I am assuming currenttech and current wizard capabilities.Because pretty much everything I mentioned actually exists....

As for the secure building thing. You don't have to engage directly and they cannot necessarily navigate the building seemlessly. Something as simple as a trip wire and gun. No tech and no human intervention required. And a death eater is dead.

We can just wear gas masks for this Nundus. Nobody in a tank will effected because anti biological/chemical weapons measures.

The defense against turning into a turnip would be a lot of what we always used....don't get hit by it. Things like this and the killing curse look nice...but an attack capable of instantly incapacitating someone isn't something new....and like I said. The effects won't matter if they get gunned before the thought of the spell even come to their head. THe author himself says a muggle with a shotgun would beat a wizard. If you assume "Wizard can develop" then I can just argue "we can develop" and this argument will never end if we start going to theoreticals for either side....

@jayc1324 said:

@jackiechanmonroe: nukes won't work. And wizards can apparate away when they see the plane flying in

Yeah they can invade the mind of the pilot and take them down and a bunch of other ways too

That might work, if we still used plans to drop nukes. Instead of well. A short range ICBM. Have it traveling at it's cruising speed of mach 20 and some angling and it strikes way too fast for wizards to even have a chance to react to it. No pilot visible for you to control, even if wizards did actually have that kind of range. Or. You can just blow them up outside their view. Detonate a nuke for from away. Say 20 miles.Making it unseeable due to the curvature of the earth itself. And the blast waves can do the rest. Their skulls are going to be shattered before they even know the thing detonated

#47 Edited by ltbrd (561 posts) - - Show Bio

@draciosv: Dementors can kill muggles just as effectively as witches and wizards. Doesn't matter whether the muggle relives bad memories or not, sucking out a soul is going to put an end to the victim anyways. and exactly where would these cages, ropes or expanding foam be in the middle of a battlefield? How would the soldier know they were in the cage or held by the ropes or been caught in the foam? you mentioned the lack of heat earlier but if the temperature of the entire area has dropped to the point of freezing (such as when Harry's goggles froze over when playing Quidditch or the tunnel he and Dudley gaining a layer of ice) then they'll be hidden by the overall low temperature in the area being observed anyways. The point still comes back around to muggle inability to see or in anyway harm a dementor.

many magical limitations have been clearly delineated in the series, such as the Laws of Conjuration, and the fact that wizards invent spells all the time (as Luna mentioned, her mother invented a number of spells before the one that backfired and killed her and I've already mentioned that Snape invented a number of spells in his youth so spell invention can be dangerous but is more flexible than scientific discovery).

The author is a women by the way and in what article was the shotgun comment made....cause the only time a wizard went up against a muggle with a shotgun in the books was at the beginning of Goblet of Fire and the muggle was killed. granted he didn't fire his gun but there is no example in the book of a gun killing a wizard.

if were going to stop using theoreticals (didn't realize we had started but anyways) and use what the books have shown than the argument comes down to the simple fact that the magical community has existed unknown to the muggle community for centuries, witches and wizards can and have infiltrated high levels of government, Voldemort and his followers tortured and killed numerous muggles at the start and during both dark periods without any reprecussions or hinderance from muggle law enforcement, between the books and movies have destroyed muggle landmarks with ease, and have the experience and practice to fight an asymmetrical war against an opposing force that has no idea of magical capabilities nor any defense against them. could strategies and technologies, potentially, be developed? Yes. but that could be years given the amount of intel combined with trial and error it would take to come up with a measure of protection from magical effects greater than ducking behind cover which may not hold up to a magical assault itself. its a simple matter of the panic and uncertainty that muggles would be facing dealing with a consolidated magical threat.

your idea of nukes and ICBMs is laughable. 1) we don't even use them in real warfare because of their impracticable response to the force they would be used against. 2) they are ineffective weapons against anything but immobile targets. that's why they are city killers not troop killers. 3) the amount of collateral damage and civilian casualties would be enormous. you're assuming battles in open terrain when the greater likelihood is intercity conflicts. you'd never be able to evacuate cities against an enemy that is a part of the population of those cities. the magical community isn't its own country or its own area of the map even. they live within the same population centers as muggles. there are wizard only communities but muggles would first have to figure out what those were and they are far easier to evacuate when the majority of the population can teleport in an instant and those that can't can simply be side teleported.

at the end this would be a battle inside the major population centers of the world which means the option for missiles and bombs is extremely limited, trying to find witches and wizards would be extremely difficult when they aren't engaged in battle, muggle ability to use tanks and other heavy vehicles would be restricted whereas the ability to teleport makes the witch or wizard virtually unhampered, the spells they've already developed for both protection, concealment and misdirection would allow them to create safe hiding areas within the conflict zone not to mention their personal means of concealment and non-detection to move around the conflict zone easier than a clearly recognizable troop of soldiers decked out in gear and weapons. having shown the ability to infiltrate high ranking and seemingly secure positions of government an initial strike against heads of state (even if it they were suicide endeavors like the spell Peter Petigrew used to destroy a city block to avoid capture) would cripple the decision making and unity of those governments armed forces, slowing the response of retaliation as well as intelligence efforts as remaining leaders try to figure out what happened while the magical forces would continue to press attacks on different fronts.

the concept is no different than any gorilla based (asymmetric) style of warfare that has been extremely effective against superior number conventional forces throughout history but with magic thrown into the mix you now give one side a far greater advantage due to the complete lack of knowledge on the other side as the limits and capabilities of the force they're opposing coupled with the extremely proficient means of movement and concealment that the magical community has.

would it be a quick war? absolutely not. there is rarely such a thing as a quick war especially as this could be one taking place all over the world at the same time. but its one that a single, united opponent could pull off far more effectively with the advantages noted than the multitude of forces with no common leadership or strategy that would be opposing them.

not to mention the distrust that would be taking place between the various muggle militaries in the time it would take to figure out just what kind of threat they were facing. i'd guess there would be greater accusations thrown against one another thinking this was an attack from one of them long before they realized they were facing a common enemy.

i'll give you an old school, conventional battle of two opposing sides on a clearly defined battlefield could go the way of muggles.....but that isn't the way we conduct conflicts today let alone what I'd see Voldemort or any leader of the wizarding community push for given their history and proven means of doing things to remain hidden despite open conflict amongst themselves and other magical races.

#48 Posted by The_Thaumaturge (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Wizards win. It would be like the US military trying to get rid of the Al-Qaeda. The Wizards won't all just be in the same place with no muggles, they will blend in and launch guerilla attacks. I mean, Voldemort is not an idiot. The muggles can't send a nuke or a missile, because they won't be able to hit just one area to get all the wizards.

#49 Posted by SightlessReality (293 posts) - - Show Bio

Muggles win by nuking the world. GG

It won't matter if we cant see them. We'll just hit every square inch of the world and annihilate all life.