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#1 Posted by TheSuperHuman (856 posts) - - Show Bio

Majestros has crossed over to the Marvel Universe and arrived on Earth, where unbeknownst to him, on the other side of the galaxy, an intellectual madman is concocting a plan of the most devious nature. Thanos wants true death by any means necessary. He locks onto an unsuspecting being (Majestros) via energy syncing device, whom he feels can make his wish flourish. Thanos teleports the neutral warrior across the black grid, and onto his ship where he proposes...
 
Round 1: Majestros has 1 day of preparation to design and create a weapon capable of dispersing Thanos' biological compounds.
Round 2: Majestros must engage in physical conflict with Thanos using only strength, speed, durability, and endurance..
Round 3: Majestros can use any power and/or skill to accomplish Thanos' wish of existential destruction.
 
Rule: No morals for any round.
 
Can Majestros meet Thanos' demands? Please post scans for each character to debate who has the best tech, power, etc.

#2 Edited by TheLegendary32 (64 posts) - - Show Bio

Does he have the Infinity Gauntlets? If so, Thanos stomps in all 3 ronds. If not, Mr Majestic wins in round 1 since he can build a weapon in a nanosecond. How many weapons can he build in a day? 9/10.

Round 2: Mr Majestic stomps Thanos here since Mr Majestic can easily move planets. What can Thanos' strength do? Mr M's speed durability and endurance are not comparable with Thanos'. 10/10

Round 3: M wins easily too.

#3 Posted by TheSuperHuman (856 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheLegendary32 said:

Does he have the Infinity Gauntlets? If so, Thanos stomps. If not, Mr Majestic wins here 6/10

Nope. Just regular ol' gauntetless Thanos.
#4 Posted by TheLegendary32 (64 posts) - - Show Bio

Then Mr. M wins here.

#5 Posted by TheSuperHuman (856 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheLegendary32 said:

Then Mr. M wins here.

The idea is to build a weapon, the ultimate weapon.
#6 Posted by TheSuperHuman (856 posts) - - Show Bio

No one else?

#7 Posted by Masterr (194 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheLegendary32 said:

Does he have the Infinity Gauntlets? If so, Thanos stomps in all 3 ronds. If not, Mr Majestic wins in round 1 since he can build a weapon in a nanosecond. How many weapons can he build in a day? 9/10.

Round 2: Mr Majestic stomps Thanos here since Mr Majestic can easily move planets. What can Thanos' strength do? Mr M's speed durability and endurance are not comparable with Thanos'. 10/10

Round 3: M wins easily too.

Why would he have the IG, wouldn't that make the battle a complete and utter mismatch unworthy of debating?

Anyway, I agree with your other responses, I say he Majestic wins all three rounds. He has the intellect, strength and speed to do so. Not very into Majestic so I'm not too sure about his speed on building machines though, any feats on that?

#8 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

The most destructive thing Thanos ever made on his own would perhaps be Thanosi Omega, a clone of himself who was said to be twice the power of Galactus thats about it.

Dont know anything about Mr. Majestic to be honest so no comments in regards to who wins.

#9 Posted by kitsokk (82 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought thanos is darksied level and majestic is just a bit stronger than superman. How do u guys justify him beating thanos in all three rounds. I can see him beating thanos in round 1 but round 2?

#10 Posted by Greendevil (2065 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSuperHuman said:

Round 1: Majestros has 1 day of preparation to design and create a weapon capable of dispersing Thanos' biological compounds.
Round 2: Majestros must engage in physical conflict with Thanos using only strength, speed, durability, and endurance..
Round 3: Majestros can use any power and/or skill to accomplish Thanos' wish of existential destruction.

Rule: No morals for any round. Can Majestros meet Thanos' demands? Please post scans for each character to debate who has the best tech, power, etc.
  • Round 1 Majestic with prep wins. If both have prep i say Thanos
  • Round 2 This is the closest fight/round. Majestics feats and fighting skills are legendary. Thanos has better durability taking shots from Odin/Gungir and going tow to toe with WM-Thor with power gem. IMO Thanos wins after a long hard and EPIC fight that would break the planet in half.
  • Round 3 Majestic will get the blades of creation and that should take care of the mad Titan for good (Probably)
#11 Posted by TheLegendary32 (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@Masterr: Mr Majestic built a super computer in a nano second. Since I'm also not that in too Mr Majestic, I couldn't find any scans for that feat.

#12 Edited by TheLegendary32 (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@kitsokk: Darkseid and Supes are pretty much equal so I could say Thanos and supes are also pretty much equal when it comes to strength and durabiliy but supes stomps the 2 of them in speed alone and Mr Majestic is like Supes on steroids. Supes had a hard time lifting a planet and needed the help of WW and GL while MM easily moved 3 planets by himself.

#13 Posted by kitsokk (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheLegendary32: thanx with that info i understand why thanos will lose. Could i just find out why doesn't the skyfather from new genesis just kill darseid(a bit off topic)?

#14 Posted by kcaz (1371 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheLegendary32 said:

@kitsokk: Darkseid and Supes are pretty much equal so I could say Thanos and supes are also pretty much equal when it comes to strength and durabiliy but supes stomps the 2 of them in speed alone and Mr Majestic is like Supes on steroids. Supes had a hard time lifting a planet and needed the help of WW and GL while MM easily moved 3 planets by himself.

no, jobberseid and supes are pretty much equal. darkseid stomps supes
#15 Posted by TheLegendary32 (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@kcaz: No. Darkseid does not stomp supes. (I don't like superman nor hate him) His speed is too much for him. And Omega Beams won't hurt him. Darkseid got stomped by Doomsday. Doomsday and Supes stalemated. (Both of them died)

#16 Posted by Almighty_Darkseid (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheLegendary32 said:

@kcaz: No. Darkseid does not stomp supes. (I don't like superman nor hate him) His speed is too much for him. And Omega Beams won't hurt him. Darkseid got stomped by Doomsday. Doomsday and Supes stalemated. (Both of them died)

darkseid already beated supes multiple times, and doomsday killed supes

omega beams didnt work on him cause he was protected by source, if not he would have been erased

#17 Posted by kcaz (1371 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheLegendary32 said:

@kcaz: No. Darkseid does not stomp supes. (I don't like superman nor hate him) His speed is too much for him. And Omega Beams won't hurt him. Darkseid got stomped by Doomsday. Doomsday and Supes stalemated. (Both of them died)

either thats jobberseid or thats SA supes. jobberseid is a lot weaker, even wonder woman can block his omega beam. darkseid should be close to skyfather level like thanos, he even had fued with the highfather. current supes dont stand a chance
#18 Edited by majestic99 (8637 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

The most destructive thing Thanos ever made on his own would perhaps be Thanosi Omega, a clone of himself who was said to be twice the power of Galactus thats about it.

Dont know anything about Mr. Majestic to be honest so no comments in regards to who wins.

Majestic has one shot the Eradicator, crushed graphite into diamonds in order to pay for a lunch, built inventions in nano-seconds, perceive particles moving at 6x the speed of light,reacted on a nano second by nano second basis,, withstood nuclear bombs that leveled cities with no visible damage, etc.

#19 Posted by Kraden (106 posts) - - Show Bio

I am no where near an expert on Majestic or Thanos... But I do know that Thanos is going to lose every round in this fight...

#20 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@majestic99 said:

Majestic has one shot the Eradicator, crushed graphite into diamonds in order to pay for a lunch, has built inventions in nano-seconds, can perceive particles moving at 6x the speed of light, has nano-second reaction time, has withstood nuclear bombs that leveled cities with no visible damage, etc.

Thanks for the few feats but doesnt explain what was being discussed. What is the most destructive thing he has created? Thanos would be Thanosi Omega has he created anything more powerful or destructive than that?

#21 Posted by Saren (26022 posts) - - Show Bio

@kcaz said:

@TheLegendary32 said:

@kcaz: No. Darkseid does not stomp supes. (I don't like superman nor hate him) His speed is too much for him. And Omega Beams won't hurt him. Darkseid got stomped by Doomsday. Doomsday and Supes stalemated. (Both of them died)

either thats jobberseid or thats SA supes. jobberseid is a lot weaker, even wonder woman can block his omega beam. darkseid should be close to skyfather level like thanos, he even had fued with the highfather. current supes dont stand a chance

It is neither. That is Desaad pretending to be Darkseid.

Moderator
#22 Posted by majestic99 (8637 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Thanks for the few feats but doesnt explain what was being discussed. What is the most destructive thing he has created? Thanos would be Thanosi Omega has he created anything more powerful or destructive than that?

1.That thing Majestic built in nano seconds was a molecular disintangler, which could remove any being's consciousness away from their body and render their body inert.

2. In Majestic #1, when fighting the Cosmic Negator, Majestic built kinetic energy gauntlets(which allowed to move planets without it crushing under its own weight), super quantum computers, ships capable of instellar travel via hyperspace, etc.

3. In Majestic #4, when he had to deal with a time anamoly, Majestic stated he had built instellar ships that could preserve beings while they traveled through the stars, crystals which conained the essence(soul) of a person should their body ever be destroyed, and computers capable of tracking space-time distortions(which allowed Majestic and Desmond to locate the source of the temporal anamolies),etc.

#23 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Greendevil said:

@TheSuperHuman said:

Round 1: Majestros has 1 day of preparation to design and create a weapon capable of dispersing Thanos' biological compounds.
Round 2: Majestros must engage in physical conflict with Thanos using only strength, speed, durability, and endurance..
Round 3: Majestros can use any power and/or skill to accomplish Thanos' wish of existential destruction.

Rule: No morals for any round. Can Majestros meet Thanos' demands? Please post scans for each character to debate who has the best tech, power, etc.
  • Round 1 Majestic with prep wins. If both have prep i say Thanos
  • Round 2 This is the closest fight/round. Majestics feats and fighting skills are legendary. Thanos has better durability taking shots from Odin/Gungir and going tow to toe with WM-Thor with power gem. IMO Thanos wins after a long hard and EPIC fight that would break the planet in half.
  • Round 3 Majestic will get the blades of creation and that should take care of the mad Titan for good (Probably)
#24 Posted by Saren (26022 posts) - - Show Bio

@majestic99 said:

1.That thing Majestic built in nano seconds was a molecular disintangler, which could remove any being's consciousness away from their body and render their body inert.

For the last time, he did not build it in nanoseconds. He built it in seconds, it took him several nanoseconds longer than he had planned. Unless I am mistaken, and I am fairly sure I am not, this has been pointed out to you in other threads.

And the Thanosi Omega was stated by both Thanos and Genis-Vell (via his cosmic awareness) to dwarf Galactus in power. If that statement is true, Majestic has never created something on that level.

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#25 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: I'm a little unclear as to why Majestic has to make something more destructive than whatever this Thanosi Omega is. Wouldn't have just have to make something that could "disperse Thanos' biological components"? Or does he have to create something to outperform Thanos' most destructive creation? I didn't see the latter stated anywhere but I may have missed something. If it is the second though, I'd point out that Majestic inadvertently made a black hole when resurrecting his son (he also made a material strong enough to survive a black hole, but that's just extra).

Moderator
#26 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@Killemall: I'm a little unclear as to why Majestic has to make something more destructive than whatever this Thanosi Omega is. Wouldn't have just have to make something that could "disperse Thanos' biological components"? Or does he have to create something to outperform Thanos' most destructive creation? I didn't see the latter stated anywhere but I may have missed something. If it is the second though, I'd point out that Majestic inadvertently made a black hole when resurrecting his son (he also made a material strong enough to survive a black hole, but that's just extra).

Frankly even i am unclear what the OP wanted, what you said is what expressly what the OP asked, but then TheSuperHuman himself says its about building one weapon, the ultimate weapon.

Also well if you disperse Thanos's molecules (or biological components) then that would be killing thanos, based on Thanos Imperative, wouldnt he just come back to life instantly, exactly what happened when Drax killed him, twice?

Creating a black hole is interesting, but like bullets black holes gets nerfed in comics. I have seen GL capable of containing a quantum singularity (5 black holes) easily, and the list of people who have survived a blackhole is hell long, few of them with no damage whatsoever.

#27 Posted by TheSuperHuman (856 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:

@Killemall: I'm a little unclear as to why Majestic has to make something more destructive than whatever this Thanosi Omega is. Wouldn't have just have to make something that could "disperse Thanos' biological components"? Or does he have to create something to outperform Thanos' most destructive creation? I didn't see the latter stated anywhere but I may have missed something. If it is the second though, I'd point out that Majestic inadvertently made a black hole when resurrecting his son (he also made a material strong enough to survive a black hole, but that's just extra).

@Killemall said:

@Buckshot said:

@Killemall: I'm a little unclear as to why Majestic has to make something more destructive than whatever this Thanosi Omega is. Wouldn't have just have to make something that could "disperse Thanos' biological components"? Or does he have to create something to outperform Thanos' most destructive creation? I didn't see the latter stated anywhere but I may have missed something. If it is the second though, I'd point out that Majestic inadvertently made a black hole when resurrecting his son (he also made a material strong enough to survive a black hole, but that's just extra).

Frankly even i am unclear what the OP wanted, what you said is what expressly what the OP asked, but then TheSuperHuman himself says its about building one weapon, the ultimate weapon.

Also well if you disperse Thanos's molecules (or biological components) then that would be killing thanos, based on Thanos Imperative, wouldnt he just come back to life instantly, exactly what happened when Drax killed him, twice?

Creating a black hole is interesting, but like bullets black holes gets nerfed in comics. I have seen GL capable of containing a quantum singularity (5 black holes) easily, and the list of people who have survived a blackhole is hell long, few of them with no damage whatsoever.

Sorry about not being clearer on Round 1. This is for Majestic to build a single weapon capable of killing Thanos, I merely stated it a different way. Thanos, for kicks, is also creating a weapon capable of killing Majestic. Whatever is happening, Thanos is countering everything Majestic does, in a way trying to make Majestic work harder. In other words, this is a subtle hint for the debates to test whether Majestic or Thanos has better tech.
#28 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSuperHuman: So you are saying Majestic has to actually KILL thanos, not just beat him. Dont see how he could do that given the fact that Thanos now cannot be killed (provided Bendis doesnt reboot everything in is Avengers Assemble series).

#29 Posted by TheSuperHuman (856 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

@TheSuperHuman: So you are saying Majestic has to actually KILL thanos, not just beat him. Dont see how he could do that given the fact that Thanos now cannot be killed (provided Bendis doesnt reboot everything in is Avengers Assemble series).

For this battle, Thanos can die. The idea for Round 1 is to have Majestros, under his own ability, create a weapon that could kill Thanos -- unless Thanos can counter Majestic's tech (this is where scans showing that Thanos' tech is greater).
#30 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

Majestic puts a black hole in Thanos' brain.

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#31 Posted by DangerousLoki (715 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

Majestic puts a black hole in Thanos' brain.

Or a thousand different things. Thanos could feasibly counter it but why would he want to? He wants to die. Besides that, he'd have to build a device specifically designed to counter Majestic's tech and that's not going to happen without knowing what Majestic is building.

Yeah. Majestic takes this everytime but only because he's SUPER Superman and has the ridiculous powerset of SA superman. Though if this is New 52 Majestic then he gets stomped because I understand he doesn't have feats yet... is that still true?

#32 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@DangerousLoki: Majestic has not appeared in DCnU.

#33 Posted by Masterr (194 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheLegendary32 said:

@Masterr: Mr Majestic built a super computer in a nano second. Since I'm also not that in too Mr Majestic, I couldn't find any scans for that feat.

Damn! That's fast!

#34 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@DangerousLoki said:

Though if this is New 52 Majestic then he gets stomped because I understand he doesn't have feats yet... is that still true?

I don't even understand the point of this comment. "If it's the version of the character that does not yet exist, and which the thread is not about, then he gets stomped."

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#35 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@DangerousLoki said:

Though if this is New 52 Majestic then he gets stomped because I understand he doesn't have feats yet... is that still true?

I don't even understand the point of this comment. "If it's the version of the character that does not yet exist, and which the thread is not about, then he gets stomped."

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know that he doesn't exist. He most probably thought that he existed but was lacking in the feats department.

#36 Posted by DangerousLoki (715 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot: Indeed what @ReVamp: said. I haven't read any of the New 52 so I've only heard about it all in passing. Someone said something about Majestic not having any showings yet but I took that to mean he hadn't had any feats to show yet. Simple misinterpretation.

#37 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@DangerousLoki: I just generally don't get why people bring up versions of characters other than the one the thread is about.

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#38 Posted by King Saturn (224776 posts) - - Show Bio
Majestic should be able to defeat The Purple Titan in all of the Rounds... though Round 2 would be interesting. 
#39 Posted by Freefa11 (2423 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Desaad was shown to be on Skartaris at the time in Warlord 114 and 115, and was personally sent there by Darkseid for a special mission in Legends 4.

@TheSuperHuman: If Thanos can die for this thread, then I'm pretty sure Majestic wins. Drax took him out with some sort of anti-matter bomb, and I imagine Majestic can do better, and he's a lot faster than Drax, so attaching it shouldn't be an issue.

Though to be honest, I've always wondered where the hell Drax got an anti-matter charge powerful enough to kill Thanos, without vaporizing all of Titan. I mean, wouldn't something like that have been useful during, I dunno, the Annihilation Wars? Just as an example. Seems a little convenient that Drax just happened to get a device capable of dropping a guy who's tanked hits from Tyrant and a Cosmic Cube, and had the bad timing of never using it until after Thanos became immortal.

#40 Posted by Saren (26022 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11 said:

@CitizenBane: Desaad was shown to be on Skartaris at the time in Warlord 114 and 115, and was personally sent there by Darkseid for a special mission in Legends 4.

And yet in the tableau of fights from New Gods #15, Darkseid is examining a tableau that represents all the times Desaad has impersonated him, and one of the times that's shown has Superman standing over a staggered Darkseid in a manner exactly reminiscent of the events portrayed in Action Comics #586. Now given that New Gods #15 came out in 1990, and Action Comics #586 came out in 1987, that makes only two instances during those years when Superman and Darkseid have fought, namely AC #586 and AC #628. It certainly couldn't have been Action Comics #628. Superman lost that fight, and at no point of time in AC #628 was he in a dominating position over Darkseid, which was what the tableau showed. The only time he was in such a position was........Action Comics #586. I would associate any discrepancy with Desaad's position at the time to the writer not keeping up with multiple prior titles.

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#41 Posted by a88378438 (3420 posts) - - Show Bio

@DangerousLoki: the majestic was a PC kryptonians level,more powerful than superboy-prime(sbp was a low Bronze age superman,and majestic was a high-level BA superman)

but he not SA superman,even not close

#42 Posted by Freefa11 (2423 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Technically Cosmic Odyssey fits the time frame too, though obviously, retconning that would be kind of absurd and problematic (even though they retconned the main point of the story, the Anti Life Entity, later on anyway... and then re-retconned it after that).

BTW, before I start, would you happen to know which issues the encounters with Hawk & Dove and Hawkman occur? They are the only appearances of Darkseid I know of that I have not been able to find. I haven't even seen scans of those encounters.

In any case, if retconning AC 586 was Evanier's intent, then it just shows what a lazy and poorly thought out attempt it was, and it's a good thing he wasn't actually that specific as to which event it referred to. Reading through Legends clearly shows Desaad being sent away. It's not hard to look up the tie-ins and see that his location is accounted for. Moreover, we're not just talking some minor cameo; Desaad's presence on Skartaris and the plans he sets in motion there are pivotal to the progress of the series up through issue 121 and culminating in Warlord Annual 6, when Apokolips attempts a full invasion of Skartaris. Incidentally, Darkseid shows up, with Desaad, in both issue 121 and the Annual. I also have not even found a clear issue which indicates Desaad ever left between issues 114 and Annual 6, which is a span of several months.

The point here is, he was involved in a fairly major story arc in another book, not just a randomly thrown in character, so retconning DS's fight also brings all the events of Warlord into question.

Then there's just the brazenness of it. Desaad's impersonations are supposed to be very low key, and generally don't involve doing anything on Apokolips itself. I believe Action 643 is the first time Desaad impersonating DS is brought up, and it is made clear he does so in secrecy, believing the punishment to be death. NG 15, the very issue in which various events are retconned, has Darkseid himself saying Desaad thought he was operating in secrecy.

What's the significance of all this? The Superman tie-in involves Darkseid instigating a major revolution across Armagetto, over at least a few days, using Superman and Amazing Grace as the primary figureheads, and resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of Hunger Dogs and shock troops, maybe more. It is a huge event, meant to spread fear and despair across the face of Apokolips, and involves several major players. Even granting Desaad is actually capable of pulling all this off, there is no possible way someone as intelligent and cowardly as him could ever believe, even for a moment, that he could keep something like that hidden from Darkseid. Even a complete imbecile like Kalibak would know that such an event would be impossible to hide from his father on his own planet.

Then there's the question of when exactly the switch took place, and when he switched back. Darkseid is alternately shown between Earth and Apokolips several times throughout Legends; that Desaad magically finds the exact right times to pull off this uprising while Darkseid happens to be gone, is pretty astounding timing. We see Darkseid personally using the OE to summon Superman at the end of Legends 4, so the switch would have to occur sometime after that, and probably after the first Superman issue. Plus he managed to successfully, perfectly fool Superman, Amazing Grace, Granny Goodness, Orion (who has seen through Desaad's disguises elsewhere), Lightray, and possibly the Phantom Stranger. In fact, his imitation is so perfect he apparently even has the ability to use the Omega Effect. That alone should be a big red flag. It's not like duplicating that should be an easy task. Sure, I could see him having built in energy blasters to make it look like he's firing beams from his hands or eyes, but something that can turn corners and chase Superman all over the city?

Then you've got AC 638, a story involving no one of any importance besides Superman and Darkseid, neither of whom ever refer to these events again, and a storyline that is completely disposable and does not relate to or tie into anything else that I'm aware of.

Basically, there are a whole host of problems with retconning AC 586 in this manner, whereas the chief problem with retconning AC 638 seems to be little more than a single panel being artistically incongruent. I don't find that very compelling, and even if you somehow do consider everything in the Superman tie-in to actually be due to Desaad, there's still the basic and simple fact that his whereabouts at the time are accounted for, whereas they are not in the latter instance. If Evanier had truly wanted to retcon 586, it would have been simple enough to have claimed it was one of those vaunted avatars, and there would be basically no problems, since their powers aren't that well-defined, but they obviously carry the full authority of Darkseid himself. But trying to make it Desaad instead is about the worst fit he could have possibly come up with for that event.

#43 Posted by Remi (613 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. Majestic stomps.

#44 Posted by Saren (26022 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11:

Technically Cosmic Odyssey fits the time frame too, though obviously, retconning that would be kind of absurd and problematic (even though they retconned the main point of the story, the Anti Life Entity, later on anyway... and then re-retconned it after that).

The Anti-Life Equation back then was an actual entity in itself according to Cosmic Odyssey, and there was even an issue of Sandman where Choronzon invoked its name in his pseudo-battle against Morpheus in Hell, again as an entity rather than a tool. Now of course, those interpretations make little sense.......so it would appear the writers have no issue with nonsensical retcons concerning these characters.

BTW, before I start, would you happen to know which issues the encounters with Hawk & Dove and Hawkman occur? They are the only appearances of Darkseid I know of that I have not been able to find. I haven't even seen scans of those encounters.

No idea. A few Furies appeared in the second volume of Hawk and Dove (Bloody Mary, Speed Queen and one or two others, I think) but I don't recall Darkseid himself showing up. The only encounter I remember between Darkseid and Hawkman is from a pre-Crisis issue of Super Powers. If they have met after that I would not know, but then Hawkman is not really a character that attracts my attention.

In any case, if retconning AC 586 was Evanier's intent, then it just shows what a lazy and poorly thought out attempt it was, and it's a good thing he wasn't actually that specific as to which event it referred to. Reading through Legends clearly shows Desaad being sent away. It's not hard to look up the tie-ins and see that his location is accounted for. Moreover, we're not just talking some minor cameo; Desaad's presence on Skartaris and the plans he sets in motion there are pivotal to the progress of the series up through issue 121 and culminating in Warlord Annual 6, when Apokolips attempts a full invasion of Skartaris. Incidentally, Darkseid shows up, with Desaad, in both issue 121 and the Annual. I also have not even found a clear issue which indicates Desaad ever left between issues 114 and Annual 6, which is a span of several months.
The point here is, he was involved in a fairly major story arc in another book, not just a randomly thrown in character, so retconning DS's fight also brings all the events of Warlord into question.
Then there's just the brazenness of it. Desaad's impersonations are supposed to be very low key, and generally don't involve doing anything on Apokolips itself. I believe Action 643 is the first time Desaad impersonating DS is brought up, and it is made clear he does so in secrecy, believing the punishment to be death. NG 15, the very issue in which various events are retconned, has Darkseid himself saying Desaad thought he was operating in secrecy.
What's the significance of all this? The Superman tie-in involves Darkseid instigating a major revolution across Armagetto, over at least a few days, using Superman and Amazing Grace as the primary figureheads, and resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of Hunger Dogs and shock troops, maybe more. It is a huge event, meant to spread fear and despair across the face of Apokolips, and involves several major players. Even granting Desaad is actually capable of pulling all this off, there is no possible way someone as intelligent and cowardly as him could ever believe, even for a moment, that he could keep something like that hidden from Darkseid. Even a complete imbecile like Kalibak would know that such an event would be impossible to hide from his father on his own planet.
Then there's the question of when exactly the switch took place, and when he switched back. Darkseid is alternately shown between Earth and Apokolips several times throughout Legends; that Desaad magically finds the exact right times to pull off this uprising while Darkseid happens to be gone, is pretty astounding timing. We see Darkseid personally using the OE to summon Superman at the end of Legends 4, so the switch would have to occur sometime after that, and probably after the first Superman issue. Plus he managed to successfully, perfectly fool Superman, Amazing Grace, Granny Goodness, Orion (who has seen through Desaad's disguises elsewhere), Lightray, and possibly the Phantom Stranger. In fact, his imitation is so perfect he apparently even has the ability to use the Omega Effect. That alone should be a big red flag. It's not like duplicating that should be an easy task. Sure, I could see him having built in energy blasters to make it look like he's firing beams from his hands or eyes, but something that can turn corners and chase Superman all over the city?
Then you've got AC 638, a story involving no one of any importance besides Superman and Darkseid, neither of whom ever refer to these events again, and a storyline that is completely disposable and does not relate to or tie into anything else that I'm aware of.
Basically, there are a whole host of problems with retconning AC 586 in this manner, whereas the chief problem with retconning AC 638 seems to be little more than a single panel being artistically incongruent. I don't find that very compelling, and even if you somehow do consider everything in the Superman tie-in to actually be due to Desaad, there's still the basic and simple fact that his whereabouts at the time are accounted for, whereas they are not in the latter instance. If Evanier had truly wanted to retcon 586, it would have been simple enough to have claimed it was one of those vaunted avatars, and there would be basically no problems, since their powers aren't that well-defined, but they obviously carry the full authority of Darkseid himself. But trying to make it Desaad instead is about the worst fit he could have possibly come up with for that event.

Yes, yes, it mucked up continuity or just flew in the face of already established canon, but there you go. Writers do that and then we curse them on internet forums. It's the circle of life. All of the things you mentioned are thrown into disarray by Darkseid's claim in New Gods #15, but no one ever said retcons weren't clumsy or ham-handed.

Why would the beams turning corners and chasing Superman all over the city mean it was Darkseid? Yes, it is the signature component of the Omega Beams, but it's not like it can't be duplicated. Beams that maneuver through the air? Hardly the most remarkable thing in a comic book.

It's not just a single panel being artistically incongruent. It's the fact that there were only two encounters between Superman and Darkseid during that period of time, namely AC 586 and AC 628. The encounter depicted in NG 15 shows Darkseid losing. He's down and Superman is hovering in the air over him, and that is practically a replica of what happened before Superman was boom-tubed back to Earth in AC 586. Nothing resembling the events portrayed in AC 628 matches the event portrayed in NG 15. Not to mention NG 15 retcons the time Darkseid fought two Dr. Fate's on Apokolips, both Kent and Inza, and they have shown several times that they can see through illusions and such, so Desaad fooling the people you mentioned is really not surprising in light of that. What's really surprising is him possibly fooling the Phantom Stranger, but as shown in the Madame Xanadu series, the Stranger's calling is to only observe, not intervene, and to let events play out as fate decrees they should regardless of the consequences of doing so. Granted, he has broken this rule a number of times (most prominently Day of Vengeance) but it is not the norm for him. He might very well have seen through the illusion, but revealing it to be an illusion would have been a violation of his code.

Clumsy retcon, stupid retcon, poorly thought out retcon, several adjectives apply. But a retcon nonetheless.

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#45 Posted by toptom (1252 posts) - - Show Bio

mj can win this if he manages to avoid al the stuff that thanos can throw to him.

#46 Posted by Almighty_Darkseid (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@Remi said:

Mr. Majestic stomps.

#47 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheLegendary32 said:

Then Mr. M wins here.

#48 Posted by NerdsFTW (3732 posts) - - Show Bio

Majestic all rounds.

#49 Edited by Strike3 (93 posts) - - Show Bio

@kitsokk: Yeah, Thanos is Marvel's Darkseid, who actually accomplishes goals. Captain Atom fought Majestic, and said he was not quite Superman.

#50 Posted by Strike3 (93 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheLegendary32: Majestic's out-of-fight feats shouldn't count. In combat Apollo was a rival, Captain Atom took some hard shots from him, Maul did also. But since Majestic moved planets, shouldn't he have destroyed those opponents? :) Punches from Thanos nearly killed the Surfer, he was also doing well taking on Wonder Woman & Captain Marvel in DC vs Marvel.Also, Thanos was durable enough to survive a black hole during Infinity Abyss.