Movie Pheonix vs Man of Steel

She could not replicate that on Wolverine, What makes you think this will even work on Clark?

None of that what you said proves she can react to a man who has went at escape velocity and easily so, I'm sorry.

Kryptonians that aren't holding back much go head first and start blizting. For example, when Superman went against Zod for threatening his mother, blitz. When Superman was tired of Faora having the upper hand, blitz. Faora against the soldiers, blitz. And Jean for that matter does not and I repeat does NOT have any feats to suggest that she'd be able to react to him.

Superman, unlike the mutants and HUMANS she disintergrated do not have the skin density that Superman has. Even if she was able to perform the move before he blitzes her, It's still gonna be tough since he has such dense skin that bullets and even Kryptonian jet shots cannot pierce through. For the purpose of this argument, Superman can replicate what Logan did and much easier since he has went against planetary gravity with enough force to destroy the World Engine and resisted the suction of the Phantom Zone.

MOS wins this guys. Before she can do anything his fist is through her head. Even if she gets the chance to disintegrate him, it won't work, his molecular structure is far denser than anything she's broken down. Wolvie's regenerative abilities healed at the same rate as her obliteration.

MOS wins.

@wardemon32: @lightenupwillya: right out of my head

@wardemon32: ok at least we agree on the ko... When Ean left the school she first begged Wolverine to kill her when he refused she casually tossed him away and koed him before ripping through the metal door. From that its easy to deduce that the only reason Logan went up that hill was because she let him, unless u suggest that Logan was heavier than the trucks she was levitating?

There's still no counter from Mos for molecular manipulation or TP because according to comicvine battle rules if a character didn't display a feat it can't be attributed to him, therefore until Clark has a movie were he resists TP then it works on him period

@chibi_cute: how's it trolling when I clearly admit my mistake,

@thanosii:

ok at least we agree on the ko... When Ean left the school she first begged Wolverine to kill her when he refused she casually tossed him away and koed him before ripping through the metal door.

No one was disagreeing you on the KO though. And what happened the second time qwhen it all actually mattered? Nothing.

From that its easy to deduce that the only reason Logan went up that hill was because she let him, unless u suggest that Logan was heavier than the trucks she was levitating?

erm, no. She had no control over Pheonix at the time. No excuses for that whatsoever. She was lifting all this rocks and water but shes fighting someone and couldn't think of using her power to keep him asway? Just shredding him into pieces? The only time she had control is when he got to the top of the hill.

There's still no counter from Mos for molecular manipulation or TP because according to comicvine battle rules if a character didn't display a feat it can't be attributed to him, therefore until Clark has a movie were he resists TP then it works on him period

Actually theres logic for the Molecular Manipulation.... His skin is much denser like the other two guys said so it would be harder. Don't you think its ridicilous how you're comapring him to humans?

And you're saying "Molecule Manipulation" as if she was turning stuff into different matierials and stuff of that nature.

But let me use your own argument against you

1. Show me some TP feats showing she can stop Superman
2. Show me some feats showing she can use her TK to stop something that is moving 13,000 MPS when our fastest Jet is only 10,000 MPH..

You haven't shown ANYTHING to show that she can stop Superman from blizting her. He moves at Mach 6,150. Show me her stopping something faster than that. If you can't she gets blitzed everytime.

Phoenix did engage Charles telepathically in X3 during the house scene when she telekinetically pinned everyone down and lifted the house while battling Xavier mentally.

Xavier in X2 shutdown an entire musuem telepathically in the beginning of the film. So it's a good feat that she can engage someone the level of Xavier who effortlessly shut off peoples minds himself.

Now is Supermans mind different than that of humans/mutants?.....Who knows....guess there's real way to prove if it is or isn't.

But judging how the Kryptonians were effected by the "sensory overload" thing, I'm inclined to think they can be mentally attack with someone with TP. Seems to be their only weakness so far

If Wolverine could withstand her uncontrolled power, then Kal, who has withstood multiple times the weight under the planet reconstructor.

True, but the sensory overload was only caused by their inability to adapt to the environment, which with determination or cause, like Zod did, can be fixed in a few seconds. Who wins really is up to whether Phoenix will go directly for the mindkill before Superman kills her with one punch.

@retconcrisis: Thats where I'm at with this. Can the Phoenix's crazy TK hold Superman long enough to shut him down with TP.

Personally I really don't think it's as easy as Superman flying up and punching her. She's displayed some crazy TK ability, but not on the level of force that the World Engine was displaying, but I think her TK field could possibly hold Clark and stop a blitz....until he over-muscles it like he did the World Engine.

Idk, this one is tough to call. Kinda 50/50 for me, but I'm leaning towards it's TP or bust for the Phoenix here to get a win

By comparison of feats? It won't hold him back much if he goes full force. He has blitzed Faora twice, and the second time he did it, he rammed her face into the ground causing her visor to break. Like you said, he has the force to go against the World Engine which basically has planetary level gravity behind it, and you also have to factor in him being weakened by the Krytponian atmosphere while doing it. He also resisted being sucked into the Phantom Zone. It's a debatable feat too, because he was glowing while the blackhole was opened. It's probably because it beckons for Kryptonians and makes it that much harder for him to escape it's pull. Just throwing out a possibility.

@wardemon32: ok her tp feats are as follows

1 she mind raped everyone in the jet including Xavier pre pheonix X2

2 she engaged Xavier in a one on one battle and won X3

3 she tped Cyke from hundreds of km away X3

4- tped Logan from hundreds of km's away X3

But beating Xavier is top considering his feats. She has more than proven she is powerful in tp, Superman has no feats of resistance what so ever.

So again please prove Superman can resistance to tp or else he loses. Because as fast as he was in MOS he didn't show any enhanced thought process. He thought normally then acted fast. So he would lose to Tp everytime

staop fanboys

pheonix>>>supes

How fast can she react to a man that can go at escape velocity? I'm pretty sure she can't hold him back either. This is a morals off Superman, and Kryptonians tend to blitz, like I've said earlier. Her TP won't help her much if he is already in a forward thrust.

@thanosii:

But beating Xavier is top considering his feats. She has more than proven she is powerful in tp, Superman has no feats of resistance what so ever.

Alright.

So again please prove Superman can resistance to tp or else he loses. Because as fast as he was in MOS he didn't show any enhanced thought process. He thought normally then acted fast. So he would lose to Tp everytime

He would have to have to have an enhanced thought process being that he moves so fast. I don't understand your logic. That's like saying "Quicksilver doesn't have an enhanced thought process or Flash doesn't have an enhanced process UNLESS THEY RUN REALLY REALLY FAST!." Please tell me how much sense you make. You're really trying to go the lowest as possible to say Pheonix wins and its not going to work. Typical fanboy...

1. One fact to show that they have an enhanced thouht process before they are moving fast is when Superman tried to blitz Faora(while she was standing still) and she was still able to block/dodge/counter it.
2. When he dodges the bullets of the A-10 while they were already shooting at him(A-10 bullets are easily over Mach 1) so he was able to dodge something going over Mach 1 while he was standign still.
3. When he was fighting at Superspeed......
4. When he blitzed Faora while she was already in movement of Blitzing colonel Hardy....
5. When Faora was blitzing the soldiers they were all spaced out and she stil did this at superspeed. She would have to have a second gap to think on who to hit next because she did a small pause to hit the person but she did it in less than a second.....
6. When Nam-Ek caught Superman as he was trying to fly away from the fight and superman obviously goes over Mach 1 instantly....
7. When Superman threw Faora and she was on the floor for a few seconds(thus would require you to be stand still if you couldn't comprehend!) and Superman was flying towards her(at superspeed) and she moved before he got to her. They were only about 20 feet away.
8. Nam-Ek being able to think and react to Superman trying to blitz Faora.
9. Could keep on going....

So I proved he can go for the blitz easily. You have to prove she can catch him just in time before he starts. Where is her "enhanced thought process"? You can't pull any up so she loses. Don't even try to make an arugment becuase you asking me to show you his enchanced thought process is basically saying "if he has it he wins". But since he didn't have it in your head he loses so it would require him to have this thought process to even blitz her.

But I'll keep on going to show you how your arguement is even more flawed.

Superman gets that split millisecond to move but while he is in mid air she has time to use TP and stop him in his tracks. What happens? Does she just shred him into a million peices? Is that even possible? WHAT HAPPENS IF HE IS IN MID AIR AND SHE CATCHES HIM?? Well its simple....she still dies.

When Xavier freezes everyone in the airport in X-2 you can still see their still in movement a little when he freezes them. Their kinetic energy still takes a second to stop or even 2 seconds. When you walk you only go about 2-3 miles per hour but they STILL had enough kinetic energy to move. Superman is traveling thousands of miles per hour so even when she thinks to stop him and even if she succeds she still isn't really stopping his kinetic energy, so hes still flying into her which will kill her.

Because?

Matter Manipulation

I don't want to go into the science on why superman's durability doesn't matter when it comes to molecular TK.

@cara_hunter: His molecular structure/skin is a lot more dense than anyone Jean/Phoenix has encountered. You have no proof that she'd be capable of doing the same thing she's done to everyone else at the same rate of time. I'm not denying that she can do it, but it's going to be a lot more work she has to do. His skin can take helicopter bullets, being rushed through buildings, oil refinery explosions, Kryptonian tech, an exploding train hurling from the sky and also entering and leaving Earth's atmosphere without ANY damage. What makes you think that she'd be able to do it so easily?

No one here has proven yet that she's able to react to him if he blitzes, which is what he's most likely going to do from the beginning of the match. People brought up thought process, but @wardemon32 has already debated on it. There's nothing she can do to stop him if he's already flying toward her, because she can't react to it, and even if she could, she can't hold him back nor manipulate his molecules in time due to his force against planetary level gravity, resisting a blackhole's suction and the density of his skin.

Bloodlusted MoS Superman might take it with speed.

In any other scenario, he goes down.

People are seeming to assume a lot about his speed. He didn't fight faster than the eye can see. Seeing him will be Phoenix's greatest advantage. This isn't the speedblitz instant win that people are saying it is.

@logy5000:

Faora can fight faster than the human eye can see. I'm pretty sure Superman can too. And we are talking about travel speed not combat speed. Combat speed is near irellevant here becuase he wouldn't need combat speed against someone who could barely throw a punch. All it takes is a tackle or a punch to the face and its over.

I already debunked the whole "seeing him" debate. He can travel 13,000 MPS. I'm assuming this battle starts only at about a yard away or so. This is FAR LESS than a second.

@thanosii: But Wolverine could withstand her full uncontrolled force at the end and got close enough to touch her. And her power isn't more than the World Engine, knowing how Wolverine could stand up and walk somewhat straight against her full power. And both Wolverine and Superman have equal amounts of willpower. I'm not saying that Superman would blitz and win the very beginning of the battle, he would most certainly be feeling the full force and be fazed by Phoenix's TP, but if Wolvie's willpower could hold against her, then I believe Kal's can.

Don't assume that Superman is as fast as Faora. She is better trained in combat. Not to mention she caught Superman when he tried to speedblitz her. Nam-Ek did the same.

@logy5000:

Just becuase shes better trained in combat doesn't meean shes faster or the same speed as him. All of that was only because he wasn't trying as hard. I'm not talking about a Superman vs Faora so I don't see why combat is relevant. And he still would have gotten the upperhand anyways.

What I mean was that she is a warrior who was trained in her senses, so she's more than likely faster. She caught Superman when he tried to blitz her. How was he not trying as hard? He didn't have the morality that comic Superman did.

Phoenix was able to stop a barrage of bullets coming at her at close range subconsciously. She will be able to track Superman if he tried to go for a blitz.

@logy5000:

What I mean was that she is a warrior who was trained in her senses, so she's more than likely faster.

Just because she's a trained warrior doesn't mean she is faster than him. I could say superman is faster since he has had more time under the suns radiation. Look what happened to Zod.

And Faora actually said it herslef that he was holding back. Right after she said that superman finally blitzed her and was also able to put up somehwat of a fight when he was getting double teamed. Anyways we're straying off topic.

Superman easily blitzs her since he can go up to Mach 6,150 and Jean hasn't been shown to stop something that fast.

@rudebomberboy01

Wolverine warned her before they shot the bullets. Bullets are much slower than Superman. Those bullets that were shot only travels about 150 MPH or so.

@wardemon32: She stopped bullets with her powers.

Phoenix via mind rape.

@logy5000:

Can you point out what part of the movie she did this other than the one where she did it to plastic guns that shoot much slower than regular guns? Becuase I have no idea what you are talking about.

Even if, the average bullets travels to about 600-700 MPH. Superman can travel 13,000 MPS. This means within the first minute he would have already traveled 780,000 miles. By the 60 minutes(1 hour) he would have traveled 46,000,000 miles. This puts him at about 66,857 times faster than a bullet.

Before you ask me how I concluded he goes this fast I'll just copy and paste it from my other thread.

Alright, according to my resources the exosphere is over 400,000(Starting from one of the lowest numbers) miles away from gound level on Earth. Superman got from over the exosphere but I'll start with the exosphere for the heck of it in 31 seconds, and it was only 31 seconds because he had to slow down and catch Lois from the crashing ship.

To get from 400,000 miles in 31 seconds he would have to be going about 13,000 MPS. That's about Mach 6,150. The fastest Jet only goes about Mach 10. Please show me her stoppign something moving that fast. I know you can't do it so I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

-Me

400,000(Miles)/31(Seconds)=12903 MPS. I rounded up. It should have been more since him slowing down stopped it tremendously.

Stopping a bullet means absoultely nothing when you are comapring it to how fast Superman can go. Especially bullets that go around 150-250MPH.

Phoenix incinerates him with a thought.

I don't see a speed-blitz being liable to MOS as she stopped unexpected bullets with her mind, so Jean has at least some reaction thought to counter his attempt to blitz her.

@wardemon32: The Exosphere is not that far from Earth. Otherwise it would take light almost 3 seconds to leave Earth. It can go around Earth over 7 times per second.

Well, in the movie, didn't wolverine kill her?.......just sayin'.....

@nick31898:

She didn't want to kill him and tried to resist the Phoenix, he barely got close enough to stab her, and Adamantium cuts through anything.

I know, but I was jokingly stating it, because he said "What no marvel hero has ever done". Haha

Yeah...that math is not that great. Here is a superior calculation of Man of Steel combat speed (imo)

5:08. Superman is temporarily taken aback in mid air. Zod tackles him and they go fying upwards. We later see them exchanging blows as they go higher, before stopping at the Wayne Satellite at 5:16.

They did start a few hundred feet from the ground, but that is negligible given the distance traveled. While they are fighting on the Satellite we can clearly see the Earth in the back ground, the Satellite is CLEARLY in Low-Earth Orbit.

Low Earth Orbit is a MAXIMUM of 1273 miles above the earth. So whoever got 400,000 miles...is smoking something. Anyways...

Now its hard to say exactly how high the how high the satellite is. Normally, satellites orbit at minimum of 200 miles above the earth and a maximum of about 1200 (in low earth orbit). Since we don't have an exact number, we'll just calculate both numbers and it will give us a range of speed.

200 miles in 8 seconds. or 25 miles per second. 1500 miles per minute. 90,000 miles per hour. Or Mach 117 (rounded down)

1200 miles in 8 seconds. or 150 miles per second. Or 9000 miles per minute. Or 540,000 miles per hour. Or Mach 703 (rounded down)

So there you have it. During his fight with Zod both Superman and Zod were flying anywhere from Mach 117 to Mach 703. Given that they were both doing this, it gives legitimacy to the speed feat.

Now I personally think its closer to 117 than it is 703 as I don't think they were quite 1200 miles above the earth. But I have no way of knowing. If the satellite is used by Wayne Enterprises its most probably for communications and thus probably lower...but if it was built by them and sold to someone else...it could be used for who knows what. Wayne Enterprises also has contracts with the military (in comics)...and if its in use by the military it could very well be 1200 miles above the earth, as some military satellites are.

I'm hoping they will tell us in MoS 2 what kind of satellite it was, as that would give us a far more accurate guess about the distance traveled.

Either way. Its extremely fast. MUCH faster than bullets. I don't remember what kind of gun was fired at phoenix, but a typical 9mm hangun bullet travels at about 950 miles per hour. Or a little over Mach 1. It doesn't compare to MoS at all, even using the lowest calculation of his speed.

Wow. Excellent job with the calculations.

I think Superman wins anyway due to his speed.

Though with morals on, Phoenix has a much better chance.

@logy5000: Thank you! :) Just wanted to set the record straight, as I don't know how the other guy came up with Mach 6,150 lol.

If people imo want to go with calcs the durability/density for superman to be resist molecular manipulation would have made him sink through the Earth.

@fallschirmjager:

Actually I see my mistake. I made a misrake and was thinking 400,000 instead of 400

No problem. 400 miles above the earth would certainly be a realistic orbit for a LEO (low earth orbit) satellite. Its just impossible to say for sure the exact orbit of it, unless its stated. All we can do is guess using the range at which LEO satellites typical orbit at.

Nice calculations.:)

@fallschirmjager: @wardemon32: @retconcrisis: that was for plot she easily threw him away in the beginning of the movie and Magneto who could levitate a bridge and tossed Wolverine miles away was afraid of her

@Wardemon Exosphere is 10000 km away I don't know where you getting 400000miles from. You just lost credibility fom me. I think we are done

fallschirmjager I agree with your calculations, the point that people are stating is not how fast Pheonix or MoS are but their reaction time. Because Clark did not react that fast just travelled it's the age old debate of how Thor has ftl travel but peak human reflexes. Now even in your posted video they display human reflexes. Now when Clark think " blitze". And Pheonix thinks " stop" her power will engage faster.

That's why people the majority is saying TP for the win

@thanosii: Personally. I think its a tie. No one can prove Phoenix can hurt someone of Man of Steel's durability...and no one can't prove she can't either.

So yeah. For me tie.

I just wanted to set the record state on his speed, as it was being misrepresented.

@thanosii:

Becuase I made a mistake I lose credibility? Does that change the fact that she can't stop something moving that fast? Everything else I said was facts, everything you said has holes.

Sureeeeeeeeeeeeee

I still don't see her capable of reacting to him blitzing her.

@fallschirmjager: she doesn't have to prove, he has to prove he can react before she TP him, an example is saying because black widow wasn't shot I have to prove she is not bullet proof (hope it makes sense). Clark did have enhanced thought processes so she can win before he moves