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#151 Edited by Dratini1331 (7040 posts) - - Show Bio
#152 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that scan from "Before Watchmen"? BEFORE... Watchmen?

Secondly, Doc's perception of knowing the future isn't quite what you'd expect. For example, when he's with Laurie on Mars and he mentions something about her having some fun with Dreiberg, she asked him how he knows about it. He tells her he doesn't, but he will know in the future. And then, when she mentions it, he acts surprised. This may very well be the same in this case. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 6.

Yes, Before Watchmen, which is canon material now, and offers far more than your assumptions, since you know, it is actual printed material from the same company that put out Watchmen. But wait...it wasn't written by original author, right? Guess everything in Marvel after Stan Lee isn't canon either. Do you know how much canon material there is out there for characters that creators have lost control over and no longer write for that they may or may not approve of? A lot. Get over it. It's now canon. The publisher owns the characters, and as such, decides their fates.

And yes, it is exactly what I would expect. He is a puppet that can see the strings and he is playing his part, it's just there that he reveals his part to Laurie. And he states that she will tell him shortly, not that he already knew. And let's clarify, there is not that much surprise. Again, we are adding to the equation and interpreting events. You are painting a picture based on your interpretation of the artwork. No widening of the mouth or eyes to really indicate shock, maybe a slight frown as he leads to the next part of his discussion, Laurie moving on.

Such shock and awe in those scans, I know. Seems like he is being Manhattan to me, and functioning within his parameters.

#153 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong: The fact that in this scan he altered material doesn't mean he can't create it out of nothing. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 10. He created water out of nothing.

Lol...please prove that. You do realize that there is ice on Mars, and that Manhattan could have easily teleported and altered any number of materials to actually make water, or even teleported some drinkable water to the cup. Unless you have something stating that he created matter from nothing, then that falls far short of actual proof. Try again.

We aren't told what he exactly did. I assume he created water, you assume he altered something into water, and any of us may be right. There is no way of knowing.

And there you go, you assume something, when it is well within his power set to do otherwise. The assumption is not proof, and therefore is invalid when he has other proven means to achieve his goals. You can't prove it, so stop saying he can create matter from nothing.

#154 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

How? How is it not PIS? We know FOR SURE that Doc can manipulate matter in a larger scale than that of a missile. And we know FOR SURE that he can create an unknown and possibly unlimited number of clones of himself, and that each clone has the same powers as the original Doc. That being said, the only reason Doc didn't stop the nukes is because the author wanted the plot to go that way. Logically thinking, Doc could have easily transmuted all the missiles into stuffed teddy bears or something. He can turn an entire structure into glass, one missile per 20 clones is a piece of cake.

I told you why it is not PIS. You see, you can scream you know for sure, but you have no proof. You keep saying we know for sure, when in fact you have no proof to back up your claims. You don't. Yet we can show you in the source material where limits were imposed. So, if you know for sure, then prove it. Give us something from the source material to back your claims, and I am on board. Quit trying to give us your interpretation of events and of his abilities. Until then, I am going with the source material, you know, the author's actual intent since he wrote it and added it to the story. Until then, you are just making stuff up, and adding things to the equation that are not there.

Again, what you are saying is clearly in opposition to the authors intent. You keep saying the author wanted the plot to go that way. You see, in the storyline, the missiles were never fired, so that little sidebar overall had no real effect on the whole of the plot (Before Watchmen non-withstanding, because that was written by someone other than the original author, and it was written by someone who obviously understood the author's intent). He didn't go out and try and stop all of those missiles and then miss some for the sake of plot. He didn't prove to have unlimited power and screw something up for the sake of plot. He was shown to have somewhat limited ability (yet far above basic humans) and the missile bit was nothing more but a sidebar (an intended sidebar, but not one that had an effect on the overall plot). So, if he was never shown to have that kind of power, and his current power was never limited in a scene to further the plot, then how in heck can you scream PIS? Quite simply, you can't.

PIS as per battle forum rules: PIS/”jobbing” is when a character loses for the sake of plot despite the fact that they should be able to win.

He was not limited for the sake of plot, and when that caveat was placed in there, he had not shown power above and beyond that.

What proof do you need? Chapter III, pages 4-5, we see a number of Doc's clones. Chapter XII, page 13. He can turn the lab into glass (and a missile shouldn't be any different). Here's a scan that shows Doc blowing up a tank with a destructive energy beam (and again, a missile shouldn't be any different):

Now, maybe we don't see him vaporizing a missile. But we do see him blowing up a tank effortlessly. And I think it's enough proof that Doc can neutralize a missile in mid-air as well. Need a proof for that too? He can fly (or at least levitate):

#155 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong: The fact that in this scan he altered material doesn't mean he can't create it out of nothing. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 10. He created water out of nothing.

Lol...please prove that. You do realize that there is ice on Mars, and that Manhattan could have easily teleported and altered any number of materials to actually make water, or even teleported some drinkable water to the cup. Unless you have something stating that he created matter from nothing, then that falls far short of actual proof. Try again.

We aren't told what he exactly did. I assume he created water, you assume he altered something into water, and any of us may be right. There is no way of knowing.

And there you go, you assume something, when it is well within his power set to do otherwise. The assumption is not proof, and therefore is invalid when he has other proven means to achieve his goals. You can't prove it, so stop saying he can create matter from nothing.

Ok, maybe he can and maybe he can't. But I don't see how this is relevant.

#156 Posted by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong: The fact that in this scan he altered material doesn't mean he can't create it out of nothing. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 10. He created water out of nothing.

Lol...please prove that. You do realize that there is ice on Mars, and that Manhattan could have easily teleported and altered any number of materials to actually make water, or even teleported some drinkable water to the cup. Unless you have something stating that he created matter from nothing, then that falls far short of actual proof. Try again.

We aren't told what he exactly did. I assume he created water, you assume he altered something into water, and any of us may be right. There is no way of knowing.

And there you go, you assume something, when it is well within his power set to do otherwise. The assumption is not proof, and therefore is invalid when he has other proven means to achieve his goals. You can't prove it, so stop saying he can create matter from nothing.

Ok, maybe he can and maybe he can't. But I don't see how this is relevant.

It's relevant because you want to say he can create matter from nothing. I didn't start that part of the conversation. You started it by trying to bring it up as a point that you cannot possibly prove.

#157 Posted by Chaos Prime (10857 posts) - - Show Bio

Imo the following can get the job done.

Solar Man of Atom.

The Fury.

Classic Dr Strange.

#158 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: OK, then maybe I was wrong. Although restructuring himself is something to reckon, even if it wasn't from nothing.

#159 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

What proof do you need? Chapter III, pages 4-5, we see a number of Doc's clones. Chapter XII, page 13. He can turn the lab into glass (and a missile shouldn't be any different). Here's a scan that shows Doc blowing up a tank with a destructive energy beam (and again, a missile shouldn't be any different):

Now, maybe we don't see him vaporizing a missile. But we do see him blowing up a tank effortlessly. And I think it's enough proof that Doc can neutralize a missile in mid-air as well. Need a proof for that too? He can fly (or at least levitate):

What proof do we possibly need? Let's see, my favorite scan, the tank:

So, he melts the turret of a tank. Doesn't even destroy the whole thing, but melts the turret. That is it.

You only ever see a total of 2 duplicates in a scene together:

And maybe 10 in the movie, which does not equate to what he can do in canon material but even 10 duplicates with your proof isn't enough here...and you have him levitating close to the ground and not even actually flying...

And Watchmen #12 page 13 he does what? Walk into a lab and displays absolutely no power use? (For the record, I believe he could, but words are not proof, and without proof of the act, we have no idea just how long that would even take, which time is of the essence.)

So, based on all of this, including the bit where it is stated he can only stop or deflect 60% on incoming missiles, you want me to believe that he has the power to actually stop 100% of them and that the AUTHOR, the guy that wrote the thing and created the character is wrong? Because he can melt the turret of a tank, can create 1 duplicate of himself at a single time that we can prove, that he can float a few feet off of the ground, and that he can walk into a lab and talk? Sorry, but I am finding the evidence somewhat shall we say, lacking?

Not trying to slam you, just trying to point some things out here.

#160 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong: OK, then maybe I was wrong. Although restructuring himself is something to reckon, even if it wasn't from nothing.

And my pet peeve with that. Yes, it is very impressive. I am not denying that. But let's be clear: That is a restructuring from a very exceedingly specific incident. Removal of an intrinsic field, the glue that holds stuff together in the Watchmen U. You never see him take an attack from any other sort of source in the entire series, so this whole myth of indestructibility and whatnot is another unproven factor.

All that can be proven is that if you take away his intrinsic field, he can come back from that one specific thing.

And as for the surviving/existing with no body bit...someone else mentioned it...that cannot be proven either. When he loses his body, as per the canon material, there is an electromagnetic pattern left that resembles a consciousness. What happens every time he loses his body? He reforms it. He doesn't just exist happily in the nebulous ether...he does what he has to in getting his body reformed so he can function and affect the world. As far as we can tell, he needs the body, because you never see him existing happily and affecting the world without. He loses his body after removal of his intrinsic field, he reforms it. That is that.

Anything else is purely unproven and conjecture.

And, let me also clarify, I am not trying to slam you or belittle you. If you feel Manhattan can beat various characters, that is fine. I am just trying to shed some light on some myths that have been built up around the character.

#161 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:
@the_red_viper said:

First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that scan from "Before Watchmen"? BEFORE... Watchmen?

Secondly, Doc's perception of knowing the future isn't quite what you'd expect. For example, when he's with Laurie on Mars and he mentions something about her having some fun with Dreiberg, she asked him how he knows about it. He tells her he doesn't, but he will know in the future. And then, when she mentions it, he acts surprised. This may very well be the same in this case. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 6.

Yes, Before Watchmen, which is canon material now, and offers far more than your assumptions, since you know, it is actual printed material from the same company that put out Watchmen. But wait...it wasn't written by original author, right? Guess everything in Marvel after Stan Lee isn't canon either. Do you know how much canon material there is out there for characters that creators have lost control over and no longer write for that they may or may not approve of? A lot. Get over it. It's now canon. The publisher owns the characters, and as such, decides their fates.

And yes, it is exactly what I would expect. He is a puppet that can see the strings and he is playing his part, it's just there that he reveals his part to Laurie. And he states that she will tell him shortly, not that he already knew. And let's clarify, there is not that much surprise. Again, we are adding to the equation and interpreting events. You are painting a picture based on your interpretation of the artwork. No widening of the mouth or eyes to really indicate shock, maybe a slight frown as he leads to the next part of his discussion, Laurie moving on.

Such shock and awe in those scans, I know. Seems like he is being Manhattan to me, and functioning within his parameters.

The fact that it's canon is irrelevant. It's BEFORE Watchmen. which means BEFORE the events of Watchmen. Which means the tachyon thing hasn't happened yet. Which means that even if Veidt erased Doc's ability to live the future, the scan you showed happened BEFORE. So yes, he does in fact know (or will know) what's going to come out of what he has just created.

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

What proof do you need? Chapter III, pages 4-5, we see a number of Doc's clones. Chapter XII, page 13. He can turn the lab into glass (and a missile shouldn't be any different). Here's a scan that shows Doc blowing up a tank with a destructive energy beam (and again, a missile shouldn't be any different):

Now, maybe we don't see him vaporizing a missile. But we do see him blowing up a tank effortlessly. And I think it's enough proof that Doc can neutralize a missile in mid-air as well. Need a proof for that too? He can fly (or at least levitate):

Lol...what proof do we possibly need. Let's see, my favorite scan, the tank:

So, he melts the turret of a tank.

You only ever see a total of 2 duplicates in a scene together:

And maybe 10 in the movie, which does not equate to what he can do in canon material...you have him levitating close to the ground and not even actually flying...

And Watchmen #12 page 13 he does what? Walk into a lab and displays absolutely no power use?

What, because the floor is depicted as shiny and they state nothing about glass anywhere, we are to assume he turns the lab into glass? Really?

So, based on all of this, including the bit where it is stated he can only stop or deflect 60% on incoming missiles, you want me to believe that he has the power to actually stop 100% of them and that the AUTHOR, the guy that wrote the thing and created the character is wrong? Because he can melt the turret of a tank, can create 1 duplicate of himself at a single time that we can prove, that he can float a few feet off of the ground, and that he can walk into a shiny lab? Sorry, but I am finding the evidence somewhat shall we say, lacking?

Yeas, he melts the turret of a tank. Which means he can do the same thing to a missile.

And yes, we only see a few clones. He didn't need any more at the moment, so why should he create any more? Can he create a maximum of 2 clones? That's a stupid assumption. Prove to me that he can't create any more clones. Same thing goes for the levitation. The fact that he only levitated a few feet above the ground doesn't mean he can't levitate higher. You're just being annoying when you say stuff like "we didn't see him do exactly that so we have to assume that he can't do that". What, we've never seen the Doc walk into an ice-cream store, so we have to assume he can't walk in ice cream stores, right? I only gave you the scan that showed him floating in case you'd go on about the "mid-air" part, by the way.

And Doc didn't turn the lab into glass. He said he could, though, and well, that means the AUTHOR said that. So yeah, he can do that.

Nobody stated he can only stop 60% of the nukes. Somebody named Milton Glass assumed he can't stop all of them, and some fat politicians assumed the same. Those are assumptions, made by people who probably aren't aware of half of Doc's capabilities.

All in all, you are very good at annoying the hell out of people. You're looking at my evidence at the most infantile way I can imagine. You're assuming that since Doc didn't create a billion copies of himself, that means he can't create more than just the two that we saw. And that's stupid. What reason on earth can you think of that made the creators give Doc the limitation of having no more than 2 copies? That's stupid.

#162 Edited by divad4686 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: You have to prove that he can create more than two clones using canon, no the other way around.

#163 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong: OK, then maybe I was wrong. Although restructuring himself is something to reckon, even if it wasn't from nothing.

And my pet peeve with that. Yes, it is very impressive. I am not denying that. But let's be clear: That is a restructuring from a very exceedingly specific incident. Removal of an intrinsic field, the glue that holds stuff together in the Watchmen U. You never see him take an attack from any other sort of source in the entire series, so this whole myth of indestructibility and whatnot is another unproven factor.

All that can be proven is that if you take away his intrinsic field, he can come back from that one specific thing.

And as for the surviving/existing with no body bit...someone else mentioned it...that cannot be proven either. When he loses his body, as per the canon material, there is an electromagnetic pattern left that resembles a consciousness. What happens every time he loses his body? He reforms it. He doesn't just exist happily in the nebulous ether...he does what he has to in getting his body reformed so he can function and affect the world. As far as we can tell, he needs the body, because you never see him existing happily and affecting the world without. He loses his body after removal of his intrinsic field, he reforms it. That is that.

Anything else is purely unproven and conjecture.

And, let me also clarify, I am not trying to slam you or belittle you. If you feel Manhattan can beat various characters, that is fine. I am just trying to shed some light on some myths that have been built up around the character.

Removing his intrinsic field means ripping him apart to a sub-atomic level. I don't think that there's any other form of physical damage that's any worse than this.

Doc did exist without a physical form. It took him months to reassemble from Jon Osterman to Doctor Manhattan. The accident took place in August, and Doc's new physical form appeared for the first time in November tat year. which means 3 months without a body. There's no way of knowing that for sure, but I see Doc not as an organism, but as a being. A consciousness, if you will, and that blue body of his is nothing more than a vessel to simplify things for him.

BTW, sorry for calling you infantile in that last comment. Shouldn't have said that.

#164 Posted by russellmania77 (15850 posts) - - Show Bio

Anti-monitor, monitor, darkseid, trigon, superman-prime 1 million, galactus, imperiex, the spectre, god_spawn, pr beyonder, god swamp thing, white lanterns, black lanterns, monitorS, full powered Alex luthor jr, odin, celestials, the doctor, bugs bunny, all father, anybody with the infinity gauntlet, nekron, neron, sulter, zarathos, mephisto, dark heart, mew, majin buu, anti-matter man, Thor (wt jmolnir), rune king Thor, pc superman, classic dr strange, dr fate, classic scarlet witch, apocalypse, superman prime, ion Kyle rayner, ion sodam yat, the guardians of the universe, parallax Hal Jordan, Phoenix, the presence and the one above all

Online
#165 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

Anti-monitor, monitor, darkseid, trigon, superman-prime 1 million, galactus, imperiex, the spectre, god_spawn, pr beyonder, god swamp thing, white lanterns, black lanterns, monitorS, full powered Alex luthor jr, odin, celestials, the doctor, bugs bunny, all father, anybody with the infinity gauntlet, nekron, neron, sulter, zarathos, mephisto, dark heart, mew, majin buu, anti-matter man, Thor (wt jmolnir), rune king Thor, pc superman, classic dr strange, dr fate, classic scarlet witch, apocalypse, superman prime, ion Kyle rayner, ion sodam yat, the guardians of the universe, parallax Hal Jordan, Phoenix, the presence and the one above all

Shit, totally forgot about bugs bunny.

#166 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:


Yeas, he melts the turret of a tank. Which means he can do the same thing to a missile.

And yes, we only see a few clones. He didn't need any more at the moment, so why should he create any more? Can he create a maximum of 2 clones? That's a stupid assumption. Prove to me that he can't create any more clones. Same thing goes for the levitation. The fact that he only levitated a few feet above the ground doesn't mean he can't levitate higher. You're just being annoying when you say stuff like "we didn't see him do exactly that so we have to assume that he can't do that". What, we've never seen the Doc walk into an ice-cream store, so we have to assume he can't walk in ice cream stores, right? I only gave you the scan that showed him floating in case you'd go on about the "mid-air" part, by the way.

And Doc didn't turn the lab into glass. He said he could, though, and well, that means the AUTHOR said that. So yeah, he can do that.

Nobody stated he can only stop 60% of the nukes. Somebody named Milton Glass assumed he can't stop all of them, and some fat politicians assumed the same. Those are assumptions, made by people who probably aren't aware of half of Doc's capabilities.

All in all, you are very good at annoying the hell out of people. You're looking at my evidence at the most infantile way I can imagine. You're assuming that since Doc didn't create a billion copies of himself, that means he can't create more than just the two that we saw. And that's stupid. What reason on earth can you think of that made the creators give Doc the limitation of having no more than 2 copies? That's stupid.

All in all, if I annoy the hell out of you, then stop responding. I am offering you actual substance from the source material, and you are offering me your interpretation of events. You see, you want to offer a no limits fallacy on Manhattan and his abilities here.

It's silly to assume that he can accomplish half of what you seem to think he can when you have no proof. By your logic we can just assume many things for a multitude of characters. I have never seen Cassy Hack from Hack Slash face a matter manipulator. But you know what, I've seen she is tough and can take some hits. So now, I am going to assume that Cassie is in fact resistant to matter manipulation. Or how about characters that have never been shot? Sure, they are now immune to bullets, even though we cannot prove it. You see, your are assuming without proof, and applying no limits to Manhattan's power set, limits which go beyond author intent. Everything in your response to me is still more of the same, with no proof to back any of it.

Nope, just you trying to apply things to the equation that you cannot possibly prove. So, you want to prove that he can create a maximum of more than two clones? Give me the proof. You want to prove he can fly? Then prove it. I don't have to prove that doc can't just walk into an ice cream store. That is silly to even bring up. He has proven capable of walking into structures. Walking into a structure is not a power or limit that needs to be proven, and is a completely irrelevant idea here. He hasn't proven capable of being able to create more than one clone. He hasn't proven capable of anywhere near what you say.

Milton...he was more than just some guy. He was a canon character that had studied and spoken with Manhattan. I'll take his word over yours, since you know, he is a canon character from the canon series, using words written by the author. Oh yeah, and in Before Watchmen when you see missiles destroying the planet and Manhattan sitting there helpless? An incident before he screwed up time and the tachyon incident. He sure didn't have the power in canon material there, which of course doesn't seem counter to what was brought up in the first series.

My way of looking at things is not infantile. What, it is infantile to ask you for proof to back your position and for me to show you what has actually happened in the series? It is infantile to not accept your interpretation of events and ask for some actual fact to back your position? I have even told you, that if you could prove your point, I would be on board 100%. But you are not proving your point. You are giving me your interpretation of events, and I am showing you the reality of what we have seen in the series.

I am trying to maintain a calm and civil tone here, with a few slips that I have gone back and edited (and if I missed any, I do apologize, I am only human after all), all in an effort to keep things civil. You on the other turn to calling me annoying and placing me in an infantile mindset? Based the idea that I am quite simply having a discussion and calling into question your interpretation of events? Really?

You need to calm down a bit, as if you find this annoying, then maybe the battle forums is not the best place for you to be at the moment. You see, debate, and asking for actual proof, is in fact part and parcel of the process of discussion on these boards. I am not meaning to annoy or demean you, unlike you seem to want to do in regards to me.

So, he can melt the turret of a tank. Not really all that impressive, and he can create a clone...again not all that impressive. He can float...not all that impressive. And from this, you want to state that he can destroy all of the missiles based on the unseen and the unknown when even the author puts in a bit that is counter to that idea, and Before Watchmen gives us a scene that fits in perfectly with what was set forth in Watchmen.

So, again I ask, where is your proof?

#167 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

Removing his intrinsic field means ripping him apart to a sub-atomic level. I don't think that there's any other form of physical damage that's any worse than this.

Doc did exist without a physical form. It took him months to reassemble from Jon Osterman to Doctor Manhattan. The accident took place in August, and Doc's new physical form appeared for the first time in November tat year. which means 3 months without a body. There's no way of knowing that for sure, but I see Doc not as an organism, but as a being. A consciousness, if you will, and that blue body of his is nothing more than a vessel to simplify things for him.

BTW, sorry for calling you infantile in that last comment. Shouldn't have said that.

Yes, you should not have, but I am willing to let it go, and let bygones be bygones.

Regardless, removing his intrinsic field is the removing of the glue that holds things together in the Watchmen U. That is all we know, and that is all that can be proven.

And yes, the electromagnetic pattern that resembles consciousness existed. And again, he did everything he could to get his body back. That pattern existed, but it seems to need to a body to do anything other than pull his molecules back together, and is only ever proven to be able to affect Docs personal molecules to reform them. He needs that vessel, else why bother to reform it? He fought to get it back to affect the world the first time, and can reform it easier the second time. You can't prove what an attack that does not remove an intrinsic field might accomplish. You just can't. Anything else is conjecture.

And let's clarify this, something you stated that I missed along the line:

"The fact that it's canon is irrelevant. It's BEFORE Watchmen. which means BEFORE the events of Watchmen. Which means the tachyon thing hasn't happened yet. Which means that even if Veidt erased Doc's ability to live the future, the scan you showed happened BEFORE. So yes, he does in fact know (or will know) what's going to come out of what he has just created."

Before Watchmen...the same Before Watchmen that showed scenes set after the original Watchmen series. Like how the tachyon incident was made possible and came into being, and the scene of him creating life being set after said tachyon incident. I can get you the scans of his discussion after the tachyon incident from Before Watchmen in regards to Ozzy if you like? it's the exact same conversation and scene at the end of Watchmen, then he goes off to create life and you get the added benefit of seeing what he does. So, based on the fact that he can't wait to see what the box contains, intoning that he doesn't in fact know, can you prove that he does in fact know, especially considering that the scene itself is set after the original Watchmen series and the tachyon incident?

#168 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:


Yeas, he melts the turret of a tank. Which means he can do the same thing to a missile.

And yes, we only see a few clones. He didn't need any more at the moment, so why should he create any more? Can he create a maximum of 2 clones? That's a stupid assumption. Prove to me that he can't create any more clones. Same thing goes for the levitation. The fact that he only levitated a few feet above the ground doesn't mean he can't levitate higher. You're just being annoying when you say stuff like "we didn't see him do exactly that so we have to assume that he can't do that". What, we've never seen the Doc walk into an ice-cream store, so we have to assume he can't walk in ice cream stores, right? I only gave you the scan that showed him floating in case you'd go on about the "mid-air" part, by the way.

And Doc didn't turn the lab into glass. He said he could, though, and well, that means the AUTHOR said that. So yeah, he can do that.

Nobody stated he can only stop 60% of the nukes. Somebody named Milton Glass assumed he can't stop all of them, and some fat politicians assumed the same. Those are assumptions, made by people who probably aren't aware of half of Doc's capabilities.

All in all, you are very good at annoying the hell out of people. You're looking at my evidence at the most infantile way I can imagine. You're assuming that since Doc didn't create a billion copies of himself, that means he can't create more than just the two that we saw. And that's stupid. What reason on earth can you think of that made the creators give Doc the limitation of having no more than 2 copies? That's stupid.

All in all, if I annoy the hell out of you, then stop responding. I am offering you actual substance from the source material, and you are offering me your interpretation of events. You see, you want to offer a no limits fallacy on Manhattan and his abilities here.

It's silly to assume that he can accomplish half of what you seem to think he can when you have no proof. By your logic we can just assume many things for a multitude of characters. I have never seen Cassy Hack from Hack Slash face a matter manipulator. But you know what, I've seen she is tough and can take some hits. So now, I am going to assume that Cassie is in fact resistant to matter manipulation. Or how about characters that have never been shot? Sure, they are now immune to bullets, even though we cannot prove it. You see, your are assuming without proof, and applying no limits to Manhattan's power set, limits which go beyond author intent. Everything in your response to me is still more of the same, with no proof to back any of it.

Nope, just you trying to apply things to the equation that you cannot possibly prove. So, you want to prove that he can create a maximum of more than two clones? Give me the proof. You want to prove he can fly? Then prove it. I don't have to prove that doc can't just walk into an ice cream store. That is silly to even bring up. He has proven capable of walking into structures. Walking into a structure is not a power or limit that needs to be proven, and is a completely irrelevant idea here. He hasn't proven capable of being able to create more than one clone. He hasn't proven capable of anywhere near what you say.

Milton...he was more than just some guy. He was a canon character that had studied and spoken with Manhattan. I'll take his word over yours, since you know, he is a canon character from the canon series, using words written by the author. Oh yeah, and in Before Watchmen when you see missiles destroying the planet and Manhattan sitting there helpless? An incident before he screwed up time and the tachyon incident. He sure didn't have the power in canon material there, which of course doesn't seem counter to what was brought up in the first series.

My way of looking at things is not infantile. What, it is infantile to ask you for proof to back your position and for me to show you what has actually happened in the series? It is infantile to not accept your interpretation of events and ask for some actual fact to back your position? I have even told you, that if you could prove your point, I would be on board 100%. But you are not proving your point. You are giving me your interpretation of events, and I am showing you the reality of what we have seen in the series.

I am trying to maintain a calm and civil tone here, with a few slips that I have gone back and edited (and if I missed any, I do apologize, I am only human after all), all in an effort to keep things civil. You on the other turn to calling me annoying and placing me in an infantile mindset? Based the idea that I am quite simply having a discussion and calling into question your interpretation of events? Really?

You need to calm down a bit, as if you find this annoying, then maybe the battle forums is not the best place for you to be at the moment. You see, debate, and asking for actual proof, is in fact part and parcel of the process of discussion on these boards. I am not meaning to annoy or demean you, unlike you seem to want to do in regards to me.

Oh, and Before Watchmen...yeah, set before the original Watchmen series, but of course showing events that are after the Watchmen series. Imagine that.

So, he can melt the turret of a tank. Not really all that impressive, and he can create a clone...again not all that impressive. He can float...not all that impressive. And from this, you want to state that he can destroy all of the missiles based on the unseen and the unknown when even the author puts in a bit that is counter to that idea, and Before Watchmen gives us a scene that fits in perfectly with what was set forth in Watchmen.

So, again I ask, where is your proof?

Doc blasted out a tank. Do you agree that he can do the same to a missile? He also stated that he can turn Veidt's lab into glass. Do you agree that he can do the same to a missile?

Doc can create numerous copies of himself We aren't told if there's a limit to the number of clones he can have simultaneously. You can assume he can have no more than the three we saw in the comic, but in my eyes, having this limitation just be stupid. Think about it: each clone is exactly like Doc (at least when speaking of matter manipulation, as we can see one of the clones fixing the broken glass of juice that Laurie threw). So, in turn, each clone can create more clones. Even if Doc can have just 2 clones at a time, each clone could also have 2 of his own, and so on and so forth.

But even if there is a limitation to the number of clones Doc can have, and even if he can't stop all the nukes after they've been launched, there's no reason for him to wait until the nukes are launched. It's implied that he can control matter from afar. I don't remember if it was you or someone else (I think it was you), but when I said Doc can create matter out of nada and gave the water on mars example, you said that he could have easily transported water (or any other matter) from anywhere into the bottle. And if that's true, he can do the same with the missiles.

And just so I understand... Before Watchmen shows events that occured both before and after the original Watchmen? The scan you showed me was of an event that took place after Watchmn, then?

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

Removing his intrinsic field means ripping him apart to a sub-atomic level. I don't think that there's any other form of physical damage that's any worse than this.

Doc did exist without a physical form. It took him months to reassemble from Jon Osterman to Doctor Manhattan. The accident took place in August, and Doc's new physical form appeared for the first time in November tat year. which means 3 months without a body. There's no way of knowing that for sure, but I see Doc not as an organism, but as a being. A consciousness, if you will, and that blue body of his is nothing more than a vessel to simplify things for him.

BTW, sorry for calling you infantile in that last comment. Shouldn't have said that.

Yes, you should not have, but I am willing to let it go, and let bygones be bygones.

Regardless, removing his intrinsic field is the removing of the glue that holds things together in the Watchmen U. That is all we know, and that is all that can be proven.

And yes, the electromagnetic pattern that resembles consciousness existed. And again, he did everything he could to get his body back. That pattern existed, but it seems to need to a body to do anything, and is only ever proven to be able to affect Docs personal molecules to reform them. He needs that vessel, else why bother to reform it? He fought to get it back to affect the world the first time, and can reform it easier the second time. Anything else is conjecture.

Yay, frienemies again!

I don't think the physical body is a must-have for him. The fact is, he reassembled himself twice without having a body, which means he can manipulate matter without having a body. He has also shown somewhat of a teleportation ability before completely regaining a physical form, like in his first full appearance, he just appeared in the cafeteria (or whatever this place was):

Doctor Manhattan reappears

So with that, being said, I think that his body is only to simplify things for him, so he can walk and talk and all. Then again, I might be wrong.

#169 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Regarding your edit, no, I cannot prove it. There might be proof in Before Watchmen, but I did not read anything from Before Watchmen. You may be right, you may be wrong, you may be partially right and the tachyons only have a temporary effect.

#170 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

.

@the_red_viper said:

Doc blasted out a tank. Do you agree that he can do the same to a missile? He also stated that he can turn Veidt's lab into glass. Do you agree that he can do the same to a missile?

Doc can create numerous copies of himself We aren't told if there's a limit to the number of clones he can have simultaneously. You can assume he can have no more than the three we saw in the comic, but in my eyes, having this limitation just be stupid. Think about it: each clone is exactly like Doc (at least when speaking of matter manipulation, as we can see one of the clones fixing the broken glass of juice that Laurie threw). So, in turn, each clone can create more clones. Even if Doc can have just 2 clones at a time, each clone could also have 2 of his own, and so on and so forth.

But even if there is a limitation to the number of clones Doc can have, and even if he can't stop all the nukes after they've been launched, there's no reason for him to wait until the nukes are launched. It's implied that he can control matter from afar. I don't remember if it was you or someone else (I think it was you), but when I said Doc can create matter out of nada and gave the water on mars example, you said that he could have easily transported water (or any other matter) from anywhere into the bottle. And if that's true, he can do the same with the missiles.

And just so I understand... Before Watchmen shows events that occured both before and after the original Watchmen? The scan you showed me was of an event that took place after Watchmn, then?

Yay, frienemies again!

I don't think the physical body is a must-have for him. The fact is, he reassembled himself twice without having a body, which means he can manipulate matter without having a body. He has also shown somewhat of a teleportation ability before completely regaining a physical form, like in his first full appearance, he just appeared in the cafeteria (or whatever this place was):

So with that, being said, I think that his body is only to simplify things for him, so he can walk and talk and all. Then again, I might be wrong.

He melted the top of a tank. That in itself is not all that impressive. As for the clones, you only ever see two, which does little to further the idea that he can create limitless clones -- and remember, there is no actual proof that the clones are even at his full power level (the clones only discharge some small bit of static electricity and one phases -- that does little to show their actual/factual power levels). It falls into the no limits fallacy arena. Can he blast out a missile? I believe he can, as the series credits him with the ability to handle 60% of them, be it blasting them or turning them into glass. I believe he can handle 60% of them be it through cloning and teleportation. I don't think that a showing of melting the top of tank and creating a clone, especially when the series sites him as handling 60% of the missiles, equates to him being able to handle all of them.

Again, you can't assume that just because you see him do one thing that he has infinite ability in that arena. Let's say you have no knowledge of, and have read only 1 Spider-Man comic. In that comic, you see him lift a car and throw it, effortlessly. So, do we assume that he is on Superman's level strength wise? Now, the reality is, we know he is not, because of the prevailing idea of powers and various power levels, and further showings can prove otherwise. If the author sees fit to add in a section that states he could handle 60% of the incoming missiles, then it is a safe bet that there are indeed limits meant to be on the character, especially since that bit really had no effect on overall story as a whole, but was more of an informational kind of thing.

As for controlling matter from afar...don't think that was ever actually implied in the series. Regardless of whether he teleported the water there, or created it using elements from Mars, it was a small showing (and a small amount -- nowhere near the mass of a missile), and as such it is a feat that really has no bearing on handling the missiles. Again, see the above in regards to actual power limits. If the actual intent was for him to be able handle 100% of them, then I am quite sure the author would have had the article state 100% of them, as it had no effect on the overall original story, and only ended up affecting the story of Before Watchmen. Basically there is no utter purpose in the story for it other than background information and to give people an idea of what he is capable of.

As for the body, until it can be proven he doesn't need it, then again it is just conjecture, as he always reforms it when it is lost, and seems to need it to affect things since he never does anything without it beyond affecting his personal molecules and possibly moving them. His state without the body seems to need the body...because again, why bother to reform it?

But yes, Before Watchmen Manhattan delves into what happens after Watchmen in a few scenes. If you have not read the Manhattan stuff from it, then I recommend it. It is a good read.

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong: Regarding your edit, no, I cannot prove it. There might be proof in Before Watchmen, but I did not read anything from Before Watchmen. You may be right, you may be wrong, you may be partially right and the tachyons only have a temporary effect.

Thing is, he is shown to speak the same way while in the area of the tachyon incident (basically as in not knowing the future). Then he teleports to a completely different planet, and it is still happening. Now, regardless of whether or not he maintains the ability, as per my blog, I show where the ability is useless anyway other than being an interesting story point for the character, but the evidence points to him losing it. Right or wrong, it is proven to be useless in a battle thread due to what happens when he does use it.

Here is my biggest point in discussing a character like Manhattan...you are throwing out to many ifs, too many things you are having to assume, and having to use statements like "I think". Now, again, I am not trying to down you or your thoughts on the matter. If you want to believe that he is that powerful, that is fine with me, but in regards to the battle forums, it is something you are going to have a hard time actually proving, since his actual benchmarks, the feats, are just not that high. The argument of: "Well we haven't seen his actual limits, or we just don't know what he could do" and so on doesn't work, because it can't be proven. One person wants to assume one thing (that he can create unlimited clones) and another wants to assume something else (he has a max of 10-20; that is not what I assume, it is just an example). Problem is, each assumption could be considered as equal and valid in this regard, because it can't be proven either way. The actual benchmark gives us 1 clone. There are no feats or showings to extrapolate anymore than that in regards to this power.

What I think is that his power levels allow him to create enough clones and allow him to teleport around fast enough to handle 60% of the missiles after they are launched, since that is the information we have to go off of. That does not equate to unlimited clones and superspeed by any stretch of the imagination, since his actual shown benchmarks never show above human level speed and we only ever see one clone. I think that there are far too many unknowns to argue about Manhattan due to the limited nature of his showings, and I think that his actual benchmarks are what we have to go off of, since that is all we have that is in the realm of proven fact. Anything else is conjecture and cannot be proven.

Alright, I think we have covered this from every possible angle, so I am leaving the discussion for now. I am all discussed out on the subject for the day. Take it easy, and have fun.

#172 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: I'm glad we've agreed on disagreeing ;)

#173 Posted by divad4686 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: You can't prove he can create more than 10 copies of himself.

#174 Posted by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio
made also by moore

#175 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7044 posts) - - Show Bio

Nico from Runaways.

#176 Posted by HowdIShotWeb (1 posts) - - Show Bio

The Sailor Scouts