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#101 Posted by The_Imperator (1924 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

*facepalm* When it is the only limit he has ever had, it is not PIS! If movieManhattan did something more powerful that wiping out all nukes, then it is PIS. IIRC, he never did anything more powerful than that in the movie. Thus, it is not PIS!

#102 Posted by SheenLantern (6453 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

*facepalm* When it is the only limit he has ever had, it is not PIS! If movieManhattan did something more powerful that wiping out all nukes, then it is PIS. IIRC, he never did anything more powerful than that in the movie. Thus, it is not PIS!

Exactly, if Doctor Manhattan had been shown to destroy galaxies with a snap of the finger, or able to control planetary amounts of matter with ease, then it would be PiS if he couldn't stop a bunch of nukes.

But he hadn't, he had never show more than relatively low molecule manipulation, and it's therefore believable that he couldn't stop the missle strikes.

#103 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

This is from Watchmen #4, on Page 33. It's not Before Watchmen.

"We aren't told if there's a limit to the clones he can have, or if his power is halved. You're just assuming it's like that when there's no reason to."

There's a massive, blatant reason to think that there is a limit to his clones; He couldn't. stop. the. nukes.

I'm holding my copy of Watchmen in my hands right now. I looked this thing up. This is supposedly an article written by some guy named Professor Milton Glass, no idea why it's signed "Dr. Manhattan" at the bottom. He assumes Manhattan can't stop the nukes, and he doesn't even say why. I dunno, maybe he read "Before Watchmen".

@the_red_viper said:

Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

*facepalm* When it is the only limit he has ever had, it is not PIS! If movieManhattan did something more powerful that wiping out all nukes, then it is PIS. IIRC, he never did anything more powerful than that in the movie. Thus, it is not PIS!

So if it's the only limit he has (and it's not even a limit, it's PIS), why can't he overpower the Surfer? Because of his lack of limitations?

@the_imperator said:
@the_red_viper said:

Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

*facepalm* When it is the only limit he has ever had, it is not PIS! If movieManhattan did something more powerful that wiping out all nukes, then it is PIS. IIRC, he never did anything more powerful than that in the movie. Thus, it is not PIS!

Exactly, if Doctor Manhattan had been shown to destroy galaxies with a snap of the finger, or able to control planetary amounts of matter with ease, then it would be PiS if he couldn't stop a bunch of nukes.

But he hadn't, he had never show more than relatively low molecule manipulation, and it's therefore believable that he couldn't stop the missle strikes.

He could have turned Veidt's lab into glass. How's a missile different? Especially when taking to mind that each clone can do exactly the same.

#104 Posted by SheenLantern (6453 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

he could have turned Veidt's lab into glass. How's a missile different? Especially when taking to mind that each clone can do exactly the same.

Prove it.

#105 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

he could have turned Veidt's lab into glass. How's a missile different? Especially when taking to mind that each clone can do exactly the same.

Prove it.

Don't seem to find a video (since it's movie Doc we're talking of). Sorry for the ignorance, but how do I upload a scan (when I find one)?

#106 Posted by The_Imperator (1924 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator said:
@the_red_viper said:

Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

*facepalm* When it is the only limit he has ever had, it is not PIS! If movieManhattan did something more powerful that wiping out all nukes, then it is PIS. IIRC, he never did anything more powerful than that in the movie. Thus, it is not PIS!

So if it's the only limit he has (and it's not even a limit, it's PIS), why can't he overpower the Surfer? Because of his lack of limitations?

No, it's not PIS if it is the only given instance of something! PIS is when we have seen a character do something, but for some reason he forgets he can do it. Manhattan has never done something on the scale of destroying all nukes everywhere at once, so it cannot be PIS. SS has much higher limits, and as such is more powerful.

Also, to add to the list of beings that can defeat the Doctor, the Xeelee come to mind. They were able to stomp to dust a civilization that had the power to alter time to make it so no human, from beginning to end of the universe, had died. And that was merely how they chose to apply their technology. The Xeelee can create beings that are literally quantum wave-forms, i.e. information encoded into the universe, alter universal constants, and shove things into 4-D dimensional cubes. Oh, and they're construction material has perfect mass/energy conversion, and they are partially made of space/time defects.

Chaos Gods should be able to, if they catch Manhattan inside the Warp.

Darkseid erases Manhattan's consciousness, or shoves it into a new body, or just mind rapes him and uses him as a new agent.

Celestis, Memeovore, Time Lords, the Enemy, etc. all from Doctor Who would stomp Manhattan.

Dream of the Endless could stomp Manhattan, as could Lucifer and Michael.

High end Heralds, as has been said, can defeat Manhattan.

Superboy Prime, who IIRC was immune to reality warping, could just punch Manhattan do death "I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL KILL YOU TO DEATH!!" :P :P

#107 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: At the top of your reply box is a series of icons, and one is an image. Choose which option suits you and follow the instructions. You can also drag and drop from browser to window for gifs and such.

#108 Posted by Kainboa (101 posts) - - Show Bio

Saint of killers, Rose Tattoo

#109 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5342 posts) - - Show Bio
#110 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

he could have turned Veidt's lab into glass. How's a missile different? Especially when taking to mind that each clone can do exactly the same.

Prove it.

Dunno how to upload a scan, so Watchmen, chapter XII, page 13, second panel. Doc can turn Veidt's lab into glass.

@the_red_viper said:
@the_imperator said:
@the_red_viper said:

Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

*facepalm* When it is the only limit he has ever had, it is not PIS! If movieManhattan did something more powerful that wiping out all nukes, then it is PIS. IIRC, he never did anything more powerful than that in the movie. Thus, it is not PIS!

So if it's the only limit he has (and it's not even a limit, it's PIS), why can't he overpower the Surfer? Because of his lack of limitations?

No, it's not PIS if it is the only given instance of something! PIS is when we have seen a character do something, but for some reason he forgets he can do it. Manhattan has never done something on the scale of destroying all nukes everywhere at once, so it cannot be PIS. SS has much higher limits, and as such is more powerful.

Also, to add to the list of beings that can defeat the Doctor, the Xeelee come to mind. They were able to stomp to dust a civilization that had the power to alter time to make it so no human, from beginning to end of the universe, had died. And that was merely how they chose to apply their technology. The Xeelee can create beings that are literally quantum wave-forms, i.e. information encoded into the universe, alter universal constants, and shove things into 4-D dimensional cubes. Oh, and they're construction material has perfect mass/energy conversion, and they are partially made of space/time defects.

Chaos Gods should be able to, if they catch Manhattan inside the Warp.

Darkseid erases Manhattan's consciousness, or shoves it into a new body, or just mind rapes him and uses him as a new agent.

Celestis, Memeovore, Time Lords, the Enemy, etc. all from Doctor Who would stomp Manhattan.

Dream of the Endless could stomp Manhattan, as could Lucifer and Michael.

High end Heralds, as has been said, can defeat Manhattan.

Superboy Prime, who IIRC was immune to reality warping, could just punch Manhattan do death "I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL KILL YOU TO DEATH!!" :P :P

But we know Doc can alter any form of matter, and we know he can multiply himself and have each clone act independently. So yeah, I guess he forgot he could do that. Either him, or the writers.

Anyhow, Doc can't beat omnipotent beings. Never said he could. But Darkseid can't really beat Doc mentally, we've discussed this on page 2 of this topic. Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever. So no, breaking the Doc mentally is either impossible, or only possible for the very peak strongest telepaths.

And the thought of Superboy "killing him to death" made me lol =P

#111 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: If you have a scan, you can just add and image with the top of the reply box Icon labeled as "Img". Click "my desktop" and navigate to the scan. then select the image and hit open, it will upload automatically. If you don't have a scan, then you have to locate a scanner, and then scan the image.

If you have an online scan, select "URL Address", copy the url into the box, and then just hit "next". It should upload.

#112 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: If you have a scan, you can just add and image with the top of the reply box Icon labeled as "Img". Click "my desktop" and navigate to the scan. then select the image and hit open, it will upload automatically. If you don't have a scan, then you have to locate a scanner, and then scan the image.

If you have an online scan, select "URL Address", copy the url into the box, and then just hit "next". It should upload.

Yeah I didn't see your last reply, thanks :)

#113 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio
#114 Edited by laflux (14997 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Anyhow, Doc can't beat omnipotent beings. Never said he could. But Darkseid can't really beat Doc mentally, we've discussed this on page 2 of this topic. Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever. So no, breaking the Doc mentally is either impossible, or only possible for the very peak strongest telepaths.

And the thought of Superboy "killing him to death" made me lol =P

If Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously, how come he was ultimately tricked by someone who's greatest intellectual feats are below that of genius level marvel characters such as Black Panther, Mister Fantastic, Doctor Doom, Bruce Banner or arguably Spider-Man. Doc Manhattan being able to live in the past, present and future simultaneously didn't stop him from falsely thinking his wife had cancer, when he was actually being mislead, or falling for Viedt's plan hook, line and sinker. Movie Manhattan hasn't got any telepathic feats to suggest someone like Gorgon couldn't screw with him mentally (Not saying Gorgon would beat him).

Someone like Moondragon, Cosmos, Thanos, Despero, Fernus, Odin etc could probably reduce Manhattan to a drooling mess of Tachyons with little but a single ill thought towards him.

Also SBP is just generally LOL.

#115 Posted by The_Imperator (1924 posts) - - Show Bio

But we know Doc can alter any form of matter, and we know he can multiply himself and have each clone act independently. So yeah, I guess he forgot he could do that. Either him, or the writers.

Anyhow, Doc can't beat omnipotent beings. Never said he could. But Darkseid can't really beat Doc mentally, we've discussed this on page 2 of this topic. Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever. So no, breaking the Doc mentally is either impossible, or only possible for the very peak strongest telepaths.

And the thought of Superboy "killing him to death" made me lol =P

Matter manipulation means nothing without scale. Manipulating matter on a less than planetary scale is not the same as manipulating it on a planetary+ or solar system+ level.

Darkseid is a multidimensional entity that can comprehend and see things in more than 4 dimensions at once, I think he can keep up with Manhattan. Darkseid, too, can control multiple duplicates at once. And all it takes it one hit from the Omega Beams to drain Manhattan's consciousness and shove it into something else.

I listed no omnipotents ;) :P

Yeah, S-Boy Prime is hilarious :D

#116 Posted by SheenLantern (6453 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

"Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever."

Will you ever stop making sh!t up?

#117 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Yay I'm helpful ^.^

Indeed you are :)

@laflux said:

@the_red_viper:

Anyhow, Doc can't beat omnipotent beings. Never said he could. But Darkseid can't really beat Doc mentally, we've discussed this on page 2 of this topic. Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever. So no, breaking the Doc mentally is either impossible, or only possible for the very peak strongest telepaths.

And the thought of Superboy "killing him to death" made me lol =P

If Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously, how come he was ultimately tricked by someone who's greatest intellectual feats are below that of genius level marvel characters such as Black Panther, Mister Fantastic, Doctor Doom, Bruce Banner or arguably Spider-Man. Doc Manhattan being able to live in the past, present and future simultaneously didn't stop him from falsely thinking his wife had cancer, when he was actually being mislead, or falling for Viedt's plan hook, line and sinker. Movie Manhattan hasn't got any telepathic feats to suggest someone like Gorgon couldn't screw with him mentally (Not saying Gorgon would beat him).

Someone like Moondragon, Cosmos, Thanos, Despero, Fernus, Odin etc could probably reduce Manhattan to a drooling mess of Tachyons with little but a single ill thought towards him.

Also SBP is just generally LOL.

Ozy is a strategic genius. Not a science genius, like Reed Richards (although he DID create a new life form). His strategic mind is the "x-factor" that allowed him to outsmart Doc. He's the ultimate planner, if you will.

Anyhow, the telepathy thing is a grey area. We have no clue what would happen if someone tried to attack Doc's mind or consciousness. The fact that he was tricked into believing all sorts of stuff doesn't say anything about his mind (BTW, Janey Slater DID have cancer, she just didn't catch it because of him). We do know, though, that he experiences time in a non-linear way, which means he lives in the future, present and past all at the same time.

@the_red_viper said:

But we know Doc can alter any form of matter, and we know he can multiply himself and have each clone act independently. So yeah, I guess he forgot he could do that. Either him, or the writers.

Anyhow, Doc can't beat omnipotent beings. Never said he could. But Darkseid can't really beat Doc mentally, we've discussed this on page 2 of this topic. Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever. So no, breaking the Doc mentally is either impossible, or only possible for the very peak strongest telepaths.

And the thought of Superboy "killing him to death" made me lol =P

Matter manipulation means nothing without scale. Manipulating matter on a less than planetary scale is not the same as manipulating it on a planetary+ or solar system+ level.

Darkseid is a multidimensional entity that can comprehend and see things in more than 4 dimensions at once, I think he can keep up with Manhattan. Darkseid, too, can control multiple duplicates at once. And all it takes it one hit from the Omega Beams to drain Manhattan's consciousness and shove it into something else.

I listed no omnipotents ;) :P

Yeah, S-Boy Prime is hilarious :D

I don't think he needs to be able to manipulate matter on a planetary scale in order to vaporize a bunch of missiles.

About Darkseid and the whole consciousness thing, there's no way of knowing. Someone should ask Moore.

Morpheus in nigh-omnipotent. Lucifer is the goddamned devil and Michael is an archangel. Chaos Gods are, as the name suggests, gods. And I'm unfamiliar with Heralds and Dr. Who, so... yeah.

#118 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

"Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever."

Will you ever stop making sh!t up?

I'm not making anything up. Did you even read Watchmen?

#119 Posted by SheenLantern (6453 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I have no idea what the hell kind of Watchmen you read, but show me a scan from it showing Manhattan's brain is too fast for telepathy.

Because Silk Spectre was able to keep up with his thoughts just fine.

#120 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I have no idea what the hell kind of Watchmen you read, but show me a scan from it showing Manhattan's brain is too fast for telepathy.

Because Silk Spectre was able to keep up with his thoughts just fine.

A perfect example that shows Doc is living at the past, present and future simultaneously. Good enough for you?

#121 Posted by The_Imperator (1924 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@the_red_viper: I have no idea what the hell kind of Watchmen you read, but show me a scan from it showing Manhattan's brain is too fast for telepathy.

Because Silk Spectre was able to keep up with his thoughts just fine.

A perfect example that shows Doc is living at the past, present and future simultaneously. Good enough for you?

The Doctor's mind works the same way, but that doesn't mean he can't have his mind brute forced away.

#122 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Movie Surfer can easily dispatch him , if we're counting only movie based characters .

#123 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@sheenlantern said:

@the_red_viper: I have no idea what the hell kind of Watchmen you read, but show me a scan from it showing Manhattan's brain is too fast for telepathy.

Because Silk Spectre was able to keep up with his thoughts just fine.

A perfect example that shows Doc is living at the past, present and future simultaneously. Good enough for you?

The Doctor's mind works the same way, but that doesn't mean he can't have his mind brute forced away.

Like I said, grey area.

#124 Edited by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

You don't need to understand something, in order to blow it away.

That said, any telepath with more than minimal power, should be able to mind-wipe Dr. Manhattan, given that there is nothing to indicate him having any kind of telepathic defenses. There is nothing to show that his mind is more powerful than normal humans, just that it works differently.

#125 Posted by divad4686 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@the_red_viper said:

he could have turned Veidt's lab into glass. How's a missile different? Especially when taking to mind that each clone can do exactly the same.

Prove it.

Dunno how to upload a scan, so Watchmen, chapter XII, page 13, second panel. Doc can turn Veidt's lab into glass.

@the_imperator said:
@the_red_viper said:
@the_imperator said:
@the_red_viper said:

Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

*facepalm* When it is the only limit he has ever had, it is not PIS! If movieManhattan did something more powerful that wiping out all nukes, then it is PIS. IIRC, he never did anything more powerful than that in the movie. Thus, it is not PIS!

So if it's the only limit he has (and it's not even a limit, it's PIS), why can't he overpower the Surfer? Because of his lack of limitations?

No, it's not PIS if it is the only given instance of something! PIS is when we have seen a character do something, but for some reason he forgets he can do it. Manhattan has never done something on the scale of destroying all nukes everywhere at once, so it cannot be PIS. SS has much higher limits, and as such is more powerful.

Also, to add to the list of beings that can defeat the Doctor, the Xeelee come to mind. They were able to stomp to dust a civilization that had the power to alter time to make it so no human, from beginning to end of the universe, had died. And that was merely how they chose to apply their technology. The Xeelee can create beings that are literally quantum wave-forms, i.e. information encoded into the universe, alter universal constants, and shove things into 4-D dimensional cubes. Oh, and they're construction material has perfect mass/energy conversion, and they are partially made of space/time defects.

Chaos Gods should be able to, if they catch Manhattan inside the Warp.

Darkseid erases Manhattan's consciousness, or shoves it into a new body, or just mind rapes him and uses him as a new agent.

Celestis, Memeovore, Time Lords, the Enemy, etc. all from Doctor Who would stomp Manhattan.

Dream of the Endless could stomp Manhattan, as could Lucifer and Michael.

High end Heralds, as has been said, can defeat Manhattan.

Superboy Prime, who IIRC was immune to reality warping, could just punch Manhattan do death "I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL KILL YOU TO DEATH!!" :P :P

But we know Doc can alter any form of matter, and we know he can multiply himself and have each clone act independently. So yeah, I guess he forgot he could do that. Either him, or the writers.

Anyhow, Doc can't beat omnipotent beings. Never said he could. But Darkseid can't really beat Doc mentally, we've discussed this on page 2 of this topic. Doc's consciousness works at a million different ways simultaneously and it's unlike any other form of consciousness like... ever. So no, breaking the Doc mentally is either impossible, or only possible for the very peak strongest telepaths.

And the thought of Superboy "killing him to death" made me lol =P

No we don't. We only know he can alter some matter in small scale, nothing compared to what we know of surfer. Even iceman have better matter manipulation and cloning feats that Dr M.

#126 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@divad4686: He can turn Veidt's lab into glass. How is a missile any different?

#127 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Time Lords have excessively powerful tech, enough to destroy all of reality. Heralds could all mop the floor with Manhattan, especially surfer since he can power drain things (correct me if I'm wrong). None are truly omnipotent.

@the_imperator: Wait, what? I've never heard of him being able to think at all points in time? There's no way he can either, since he can never actually know his own future for sure. Although I guess he did enter his own time wound so he now has theoretically perfect knowledge of all points in his time stream.

#128 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Time Lords have excessively powerful tech, enough to destroy all of reality. Heralds could all mop the floor with Manhattan, especially surfer since he can power drain things (correct me if I'm wrong). None are truly omnipotent.

@the_imperator: Wait, what? I've never heard of him being able to think at all points in time? There's no way he can either, since he can never actually know his own future for sure. Although I guess he did enter his own time wound so he now has theoretically perfect knowledge of all points in his time stream.

I hate magic. Especially reality-warping. Just so... ughh...

Just to be sure the second part of your comment was sarcastic right?

BTW, no need for Doc to liquify the missiles, he can simply teleport them to the sun, or better yet, back to the USSR.

#129 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio


Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

Just to add a thought here...you keep screaming unknown limits. That is untrue. You have been shown the limits thrown out by the canon material. If it was stated that he is unable to handle all of the missiles, then it is very obvious that he DOES have limits. Now, you can deny it all you like, but the canon source material disagrees with you, and I will take the source materials word over yours here, since you know, Manhattan's actual creator wrote and applied it to the character.

#130 Edited by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: ??? The second part was about The Doctor (from Doctor Who) and to someone else. I'm just explaining the time lords and the Heralds. They're non-magic being who are extremely powerful. Time lords themselves aren't reality warping, but can build ridiculous tech.

#131 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:


Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

Just to add a thought here...you keep screaming unknown limits. That is untrue. You have been shown the limits thrown out by the canon material. If it was stated that he is unable to handle all of the missiles, then it is very obvious that he DOES have limits. Now, you can deny it all you like, but the canon source material disagrees with you, and I will take the source materials word over yours here, since you know, Manhattan's actual creator wrote and applied it to the character.

PIS.

@the_red_viper: ??? The second part was about The Doctor (from Doctor Who) and to someone else. I'm just explaining the time lords and the Heralds. They're non-magic being who are extremely powerful. Time lords themselves aren't reality warping, but can build ridiculous tech.

"rediculous" is the key-word here pal.

#132 Edited by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: You just asked who could beat him. You didn't specify any limits, and thus "the Time Lords" is a valid answer.

#133 Posted by The_Imperator (1924 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Time Lords have excessively powerful tech, enough to destroy all of reality. Heralds could all mop the floor with Manhattan, especially surfer since he can power drain things (correct me if I'm wrong). None are truly omnipotent.

@the_imperator: Wait, what? I've never heard of him being able to think at all points in time? There's no way he can either, since he can never actually know his own future for sure. Although I guess he did enter his own time wound so he now has theoretically perfect knowledge of all points in his time stream.

The Bad Wolf episode, the Doctor tells Rose that that "seeing all possible futures" is something he can do as well. Which actually originated in one of the Doctor Who Timewyrm novels. Basically, Time Lords brains run with Tachyons, and they can see all possible futures, though it tends to be subconscious. If they really try though, they can basically use this ability to collapse quantum waveforms down so that their intended future comes about. But, as we saw in The Waters of Mars, when the Doctor tries to do stuff like make reality his bitch, at least consciously, he kind of goes power mad. So the Doctor doesn't do it, but it is one of the reasons for his plot shields.

#134 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: You just asked who could beat him. You didn't specify any limits, and thus "the Time Lords" is a valid answer.

Lol, dude, I'm not the guy who started this topic. And yes, I know they're a vaild answer, but that doesn't mean I have to like it lol

#135 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:


Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

Just to add a thought here...you keep screaming unknown limits. That is untrue. You have been shown the limits thrown out by the canon material. If it was stated that he is unable to handle all of the missiles, then it is very obvious that he DOES have limits. Now, you can deny it all you like, but the canon source material disagrees with you, and I will take the source materials word over yours here, since you know, Manhattan's actual creator wrote and applied it to the character.

PIS.

@dratini1331 said:

@the_red_viper: ??? The second part was about The Doctor (from Doctor Who) and to someone else. I'm just explaining the time lords and the Heralds. They're non-magic being who are extremely powerful. Time lords themselves aren't reality warping, but can build ridiculous tech.

"rediculous" is the key-word here pal.

No, not PIS. Author intended limits. He didn't intend for the character to be what you want to believe he is. The author had a set vision in mind, and the character stuck to those limits, and did not go outside those bounds.

Just because a character has matter manipulation in his powers does not automatically give him the carte blanche abilities and functionality of say Molecule Man or the Beyonder. That is like trying to argue that superstrength is just superstrength, so now we should start arguing that Spider-Man could arm wrestle Superman and take some wins. There is the prevailing idea of limits on powers, and actual proficiency and power levels, in which some characters prove far more powerful than others in set abilities. You are trying to add things to the equation that are just not there.

In the Watchmen U, there is no need for a character to have planet busting scale powers, because someone like Manhattan who can destroy large areas of territory is powerful enough to be seen as god-like, since he is the only one with powers. The Watchmen U never expanded to the power levels that you want to attribute to him, because quite simply, there was no need for it in the story. It is not PIS, because that does not make him seem weaker for the purpose of story. For the purpose of story, being able to stop 60% of the missiles is quite powerful and sufficient for the character as is. It is probably due to his multiples that he is able to accomplish even that much.

To try and apply anything more to the character power wise is disingenuous to the character and to the story.

#136 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: Okay, I thought You meant he can see all points in time, even his own life perfectly, like as in clairvoyance. I see what you're talking about. Makes much more sense now. TY for the clarification.

#137 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Lol my bad, I just saw the same picture. Totally spaced on that. XD

#138 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

And, let's clarify this life feat...unless the movie did something different, which to my knowledge, it did not, then Manhattan ends with saying "perhaps" he will go and create some life. So, here is what Before Watchmen shows us in regards to that:

\

He alters some material on a planet and let's it go to see what it will become. He doesn't create something out of nothing.

Manhattan is an interesting and complex character. Why people feel the need to add things to the equation that are not there, and do not exist, I have no clue.

Anyhow, for anyone interested in the canon material of Manhattan and what he has been shown to do: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/wyldsong/blog/dr-manhattan-the-truth-behind-the-feats-aka-why-so/61001/

#139 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: Okay, I thought You meant he can see all points in time, even his own life perfectly, like as in clairvoyance. I see what you're talking about. Makes much more sense now. TY for the clarification.

Here is the complete breakdown on his temporal ability from my blog:

BEFORE WATCHMEN: MANHATTAN:

Sooo...I have been on the forums and threads and have seen a ton of misinformation on Manhattan from people who have read these books. There is honestly very little that changes his overall power level in these books, except for discussions about one ability, and this time I am going into scans to show the scope of what happens.

Could Manhattan change time is he wanted to? Well, here is the answer:

He changed an event, which fractured the quantum reality, and in each new timeline/reality, other choices were made which further fractured those timelines/realities creating further timelines/realities, so forth and so on. As shown in the book, in one reality he went with Silk and in another he still went with Rorschach -- a fractured quantum reality wherein he is the quantum observer. Each reality is equally real and valid.

He doesn't just observe and decide what happens. He can travel to points in his own timeline and like a time traveler, can change events, but as is shown in the story, when he does so, he messes things up royally:

That should give an idea of the scope of what he did, each and every choice he could and will make causes a fracture, and each and every reality ends up like the below:

You see, according to his words: "I know that I can ride the timeline back and forth between the future and the moment of my creation..."

He is in effect a time traveler along his own timeline and has shown the ability to change things and impose his will on them, which has shown the effect of fracturing quantum reality. It's the whole basis of the story, hence the planet blowing up at the end of issue number 2 and him going to fix things, the main true blue (har har) Manhattan lost control of things. He changed an event in the past and due to his unique position in the timestream fractured the quantum reality (an unexpected event since he thought he would change one tiny slip of paper and the timeline would move on from there changed) -- which obviously he had no control over once it started happening hence the end of the world scenario and his need to go and fix things.

When he states he is a slave to predetermination, there is a good reason for it as you can plainly see.

But it doesn't stop there. I have always theorized that Manhattan lost this time travel aspect after the tachyon incident with Ozy. Here we have some proof:

He cannot wait to see what this new box reveals? If he still maintained the ability, shouldn't he already know? Based on Manhattan's thoughts in the scan, he says he cannot wait to see what this new box entails, showing he doesn't already know. It looks like the tachyons disrupted this ability of Manhattan's for good, so he lives in the here and now it seems, no more time travel along his own timeline.

And for those wondering if he did indeed create life? Read the scan above. He picks some material from the planet up, he evolved and altered some microscopic forms, made some goop out of it, and let it go to see what it becomes. Now we don't know of the quality of it, or what it will even become, but there it is.

#140 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:


Oh, ok, and if they release a comic in which Thor tries to lift a small rock and it's too heavy for him, is that a stated limit too? Give me a break. PIS should not be taken as examples. The fact is, Doc can alter matter at will, and he can multiply himself to an unknown and probably limitless amount of independent clones (as each clone can, in turn, multiply himself as well).

Just to add a thought here...you keep screaming unknown limits. That is untrue. You have been shown the limits thrown out by the canon material. If it was stated that he is unable to handle all of the missiles, then it is very obvious that he DOES have limits. Now, you can deny it all you like, but the canon source material disagrees with you, and I will take the source materials word over yours here, since you know, Manhattan's actual creator wrote and applied it to the character.

PIS.

@dratini1331 said:

@the_red_viper: ??? The second part was about The Doctor (from Doctor Who) and to someone else. I'm just explaining the time lords and the Heralds. They're non-magic being who are extremely powerful. Time lords themselves aren't reality warping, but can build ridiculous tech.

"rediculous" is the key-word here pal.

No, not PIS. Author intended limits. He didn't intend for the character to be what you want to believe he is. The author had a set vision in mind, and the character stuck to those limits, and did not go outside those bounds.

Just because a character has matter manipulation in his powers does not automatically give him the carte blanche abilities and functionality of say Molecule Man or the Beyonder. That is like trying to argue that superstrength is just superstrength, so now we should start arguing that Spider-Man could arm wrestle Superman and take some wins. There is the prevailing idea of limits on powers, and actual proficiency and power levels, in which some characters prove far more powerful than others in set abilities. You are trying to add things to the equation that are just not there.

In the Watchmen U, there is no need for a character to have planet busting scale powers, because someone like Manhattan who can destroy large areas of territory is powerful enough to be seen as god-like, since he is the only one with powers. The Watchmen U never expanded to the power levels that you want to attribute to him, because quite simply, there was no need for it in the story. It is not PIS, because that does not make him seem weaker for the purpose of story. For the purpose of story, being able to stop 60% of the missiles is quite powerful and sufficient for the character as is. It is probably due to his multiples that he is able to accomplish even that much.

To try and apply anything more to the character power wise is disingenuous to the character and to the story.

How? How is it not PIS? We know FOR SURE that Doc can manipulate matter in a larger scale than that of a missile. And we know FOR SURE that he can create an unknown and possibly unlimited number of clones of himself, and that each clone has the same powers as the original Doc. That being said, the only reason Doc didn't stop the nukes is because the author wanted the plot to go that way. Logically thinking, Doc could have easily transmuted all the missiles into stuffed teddy bears or something. He can turn an entire structure into glass, one missile per 20 clones is a piece of cake.

#141 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@the_red_viper: We actually have seen the maximum of his capabilities; He couldn't stop all the nukes.

As I said before, it's bad writing.

@sideslash said:

@the_red_viper: I don't see how. The difference in power is similar.

Your argument was "we haven't seen Dr Manhattan's full power, so I think he can beat anyone". How is that different to "we haven't seen Galactus' full power, so I think he can rival the Living Tribunal"?

I do know what Doc can do. I read every comic with him in (irrelevant, since you stated this is the MOVIE version), and have seen the movie five times.

Manhattan's clearly got limits (couldn't stop all of Russia's nukes). Any high-level matter manipulator in comic books wouldn't have even broken a sweat to do it.

I didn't say Doc could beat anyone, as I don't see how anyone can beat the Tribunal of One Above All. I said he could beat Silver Surfer.

Secondly, I didn't say it was movie version. I didn't start the topic. (FIVE times? uhh, why?)

I honestly don't see any reason why Doc didn't stop the nukes. We do know that he could turn Veidt's lab into glass if he wanted to. Why didn't he do the same to the nukes? He could have effortlessly multiply himself like a million times, having twenty clones for handling each missile. Piece of cake. Like I said, bad writing. That's what you get when you mess with Alan Moore's stuff.

Except he can't, since the Surfer dwarfs him in power by several degrees of magnitude.
So, if you didn't start the topic, you're even more out of line for bringing comic Manhattan into this.

How, precisely, do we know that? Did he do it? No, no he didn't. And also, they didn't "mess with Alan Moore's stuff", since the movie was the closest that any comic book movie has ever been. Manhattan had those limits in the comic as well.
And even if he did multiply himself "a million times", that would just stretch his powers to a greater degree. He's only got so much power to use. For example, splitting himself in two would not double his power. As a matter of fact, if he shared his power equally between these "millions" of clones, each one would be one one millionth of Doc's power.

#142 Edited by Ciriel (410 posts) - - Show Bio

#143 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: We were discussing Doctor Who's Doctor, not Doctor Manhattan. Gosh darn Ambiguity of names. Nice blog post though ^.^

#144 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

How? How is it not PIS? We know FOR SURE that Doc can manipulate matter in a larger scale than that of a missile. And we know FOR SURE that he can create an unknown and possibly unlimited number of clones of himself, and that each clone has the same powers as the original Doc. That being said, the only reason Doc didn't stop the nukes is because the author wanted the plot to go that way. Logically thinking, Doc could have easily transmuted all the missiles into stuffed teddy bears or something. He can turn an entire structure into glass, one missile per 20 clones is a piece of cake.

I told you why it is not PIS. You see, you can scream you know for sure, but you have no proof. You keep saying we know for sure, when in fact you have no proof to back up your claims. You don't. Yet we can show you in the source material where limits were imposed. So, if you know for sure, then prove it. Give us something from the source material to back your claims, and I am on board. Quit trying to give us your interpretation of events and of his abilities. Until then, I am going with the source material, you know, the author's actual intent since he wrote it and added it to the story. Until then, you are just making stuff up, and adding things to the equation that are not there.

Again, what you are saying is clearly in opposition to the authors intent. You keep saying the author wanted the plot to go that way. You see, in the storyline, the missiles were never fired, so that little sidebar overall had no real effect on the whole of the plot (Before Watchmen non-withstanding, because that was written by someone other than the original author, and it was written by someone who obviously understood the author's intent). He didn't go out and try and stop all of those missiles and then miss some for the sake of plot. He didn't prove to have unlimited power and screw something up for the sake of plot. He was shown to have somewhat limited ability (yet far above basic humans) and the missile bit was nothing more but a sidebar (an intended sidebar, but not one that had an effect on the overall plot). So, if he was never shown to have that kind of power, and his current power was never limited in a scene to further the plot, then how in heck can you scream PIS? Quite simply, you can't.

PIS as per battle forum rules: PIS/”jobbing” is when a character loses for the sake of plot despite the fact that they should be able to win.

He was not limited for the sake of plot, and when that caveat was placed in there, he had not shown power above and beyond that.

#145 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: The fact that in this scan he altered material doesn't mean he can't create it out of nothing. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 10. He created water out of nothing.

#146 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: We were discussing Doctor Who's Doctor, not Doctor Manhattan. Gosh darn Ambiguity of names. Nice blog post though ^.^

Lol...sorry bud, I just read Doc=)

#147 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@dratini1331 said:

@the_imperator: Okay, I thought You meant he can see all points in time, even his own life perfectly, like as in clairvoyance. I see what you're talking about. Makes much more sense now. TY for the clarification.

But it doesn't stop there. I have always theorized that Manhattan lost this time travel aspect after the tachyon incident with Ozy. Here we have some proof:

He cannot wait to see what this new box reveals? If he still maintained the ability, shouldn't he already know? Based on Manhattan's thoughts in the scan, he says he cannot wait to see what this new box entails, showing he doesn't already know. It looks like the tachyons disrupted this ability of Manhattan's for good, so he lives in the here and now it seems, no more time travel along his own timeline.

And for those wondering if he did indeed create life? Read the scan above. He picks some material from the planet up, he evolved and altered some microscopic forms, made some goop out of it, and let it go to see what it becomes. Now we don't know of the quality of it, or what it will even become, but there it is.

First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that scan from "Before Watchmen"? BEFORE... Watchmen?

Secondly, Doc's perception of knowing the future isn't quite what you'd expect. For example, when he's with Laurie on Mars and he mentions something about her having some fun with Dreiberg, she asked him how he knows about it. He tells her he doesn't, but he will know in the future. And then, when she mentions it, he acts surprised. This may very well be the same in this case. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 6.

#148 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: The fact that in this scan he altered material doesn't mean he can't create it out of nothing. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 10. He created water out of nothing.

Lol...please prove that. You do realize that there is ice on Mars, and that Manhattan could have easily teleported and altered any number of materials to actually make water, or even teleported some drinkable water to the cup. Unless you have something stating that he created matter from nothing, then that falls far short of actual proof. Try again.

#149 Edited by The_Imperator (1924 posts) - - Show Bio

Adam Warlock should be able to, heck he took a straight blast from Galactus and just survived. And somehow surprised entities that can see all of time. And with the Soul Gem, he stomps, but that is expected.

#150 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@the_red_viper said:

@wyldsong: The fact that in this scan he altered material doesn't mean he can't create it out of nothing. See Watchmen, chapter IX, page 10. He created water out of nothing.

Lol...please prove that. You do realize that there is ice on Mars, and that Manhattan could have easily teleported and altered any number of materials to actually make water, or even teleported some drinkable water to the cup. Unless you have something stating that he created matter from nothing, then that falls far short of actual proof. Try again.

We aren't told what he exactly did. I assume he created water, you assume he altered something into water, and any of us may be right. There is no way of knowing.