#1 Edited by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals Off Street Level Tourney Round 1: @omgomgwtfwtf vs @tomlikesfries

Teams:

X-23-7

Daken-7

Nick Fury-1

Red Team

Spiderman-9

Black Panther-6

Blue Team

Rules:

  1. Morals off. They will kill :) If your character doesn't work well with a teammate oh well. They will not work well together but will not kill each other either
  2. No BFR, but you can teleport around the map, and no TP'ing characters heads off.
  3. No shutting brains off but any other form of telepathy is accepted. For telekinesis only on your surroundings, not people.
  4. Characters are Pre-52 and Earth 616 unless specified otherwise
  5. No Time Travel, and no Time Manipulation that effects your opponent.
  6. No character is allowed to use Reality Warping either.
  7. Standard Gear.
  8. No bringing in help from outside the map although duplicates are allowed
  9. 15 minutes off prep time in the map.
  10. No bringing in anything outside the map just getting to know the team and making a strategy
  11. Each Round will last for 2 weeks. You get an opening post, 8 arguing posts and a summary post.
  12. Have respect for your opponent. I don't want anyone ripping each others head off. Its just friendly competition :)

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#2 Posted by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

remember February 27 voting will start

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#3 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries

Okay, I will start this off by stating that my team, due to their powers, would know where your team is. My team consists of two excellent trackers with enhanced senses. So they would smell your team before yours could see them. Everyone on my team is also masters of stealth, so would know how to stay hidden and remain out of sight.

Now to move on to the fight, I will admit Spider-man will be difficult to beat. But can be handled with pheromones, like Daken has shown.

Instead of pulling his punches, like he did above, he would just be gutting Spider-man.

Now to move on to Black Panther, I don't know which version is being used, but I think he can be handled the same way as above. With both X-23 and Daken on his tail, Black Panther would eventually fall.

X-23's mind is conditioned to analyze every situation she's in and determine the best course of action in killing everyone quickly.

Also, I should mention that X-23 has a healing factor superior to Wolverine's.

I will mention what Nick Fury in another post if necessary. Though I think the strategy I laid above should suffice.

#4 Edited by AllStarSuperman (15627 posts) - - Show Bio

tag me for votes

#5 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Cool, nice opener. I'll try to have my counter up later today, or tomorrow if I don't have the time.

#6 Edited by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Nice, nice... To start off, my team has the advantage that both T'Challa and Peter have worked together before as Avengers. They can help each other under stress or whatever and have already have strategies up their sleeves. Anyhow:

Black Panther

To begin with, taking down Panther won't be as easy as that. I realize that adamantium is the hardest metal in the Marvel Universe. On the other hand, T'challa's armor consists of vibranium. What that means is, its molecules are always at 0 degrees Kelvin. In other words; absolute zero. Such temperatures have not been registered up to date yet in the "real world". Therefore, Vibranium does not transfer force, meaning that when Daken or Laura try to hit him, there will be no momentum in their punches.

Besides, BP is not an amateur either in sensing people near them. In the first scan, he detects Kraven, the Hunter, one of Spidey's arch enemies, meaning that he's used to hunting a man with spider sense. In the second one and third one, he sneaks into Shadowland without being noticed. I'm not saying he'll easily sneak past the clone or the child of Wolverine, but they won't sneak up on him that easily.

Speed/Reflexes

You might consider either one of your team members faster than T'Challa, but I, in all honesty, consider him above peak human, since he very much has the feats to back up that statement. A few speed, reflexes and agility feats:

Scan 1: BP effortlessly deflects energy daggers.

Scan 2: Both a feat of speed and reaction. His reflexes are good enough to see Sue becoming visible AND jumping into her force field before she has the time to close them.

Scan 3: Appears as a blur and puts down two men while doing it.

Scan 4: Cap says he's faster than an actual black panther. Of course, that may be a hyperbole, but what's important is that he's fast enough to avoid being tagged by Steve Rogers and till receive a compliment from him.

Scan 5: He easily catches up to Sabretooth, who had a good head start.

Strength

Like I said, I consider Black Panther above peak human, not only for his insane speed and agility, but his strength also compensates for that. He has enough feats that put him above Daken and X-23 strength-wise, which may be enough to KO them. I won't lowball your team though, I recognize them as worthy opponents and I am aware that their durability is also nothing short of impressive. Still, with his energy daggers, he'll be to get a first kill on both of your characters. Adding in a morals off Spider-Man to the match guarantees T'Challa a win. But enough of that, I'll get to Pete later;

Scan 1: BP smashes a being so hard on the ground that it actually breaks it.

Scan 2: T'Challa stops an 8 ton white elephant. I know stopping isn't the same as lifting, but that's still pretty damn impressive. Just so you have an idea, a regular helicopter usually weights about 2 tons as far as I know, so that's like stopping four helicopters.

Scan 3: Panther stops and breaks a white Rhino's neck.

Scan 4: He's strong enough to decapitate Doom bots!

Scan 5: He wrestles and beats a 5 ton Rhino, killing it (thanks to Jashro for the scan :p)

Fighting

Besides the speed and strength, Panther is one of the most skilled martial artists in the entire Marvel Universe. Here are just a few of his showings:

Scan 1: Knows pressure points and uses that knowledge to fight Luke Cage.

Scan 2: Says he knows every single martial art on Earth.

Other Scans: Fights, defeats, and kills a Super Skrull that has Luke Cage's strength and durability, Iron Fist's chi manipulation, Wolverine's claws, Bullseye's accuracy, and the combined fighting skills of Captain America, Daredevil, Elektra, Shang Chi, Moon Knight, and T'Challa himself. He holds his own until the Skrull's weakness was revealed in the form of tells, which are the significant changes in weight and body posture. This also shows Panther's exceptionally keen strategic and tactical genius.

Durability

Like I mentioned before, T'Challa has this Vibranium suit which stops all of the momentum from any of his enemies' claws. Undoubtedly, it'll be insanely helpful in their actual battle, since their claws are obviously their primary and maybe only way of putting down Panther. Here are a few of his durability feats with and without the suit:

Scan 1-6: Again, thanks to Jashro. In the presented scans. Panther resists full powered blows from Killmonger for 13 hours without his Vibranium suit, with only 1 hour breaks in between. Apparently Erik was also physically upgraded during that fight.

Scan 7: Panther resists a blast from Phoenix Force Namor.

Scan 8: Took the force of a freight train when fighting Iron Fist.

Scan 8-9: Takes full powered blasts from an enraged Stardust and remains conscious.

Also: Panther's suit recently has also shown a cloaking device in one of the first issues of New Avengers.

Tech

Panther's primary way of beating and resisting against any of his enemies' attacks. His Vibranium suit provides enough protection and his offensive way of killing them will be through his energy daggers. What makes the daggers so special is that they don't actually have to penetrate through the target's body. It has a mechanism that make them go intangible, which allowed them to penetrate Ultron's adamantium's body. In the other scan, it cuts through metal like cheese.

Overall, I'd say BP has the armor to withstand any blow from both Daken and X-23, the tech to put them down just like he did to Ultron and skill/strength/speed to fight or tag them in a fight. Aaand there's still Spider-Man.

...

Phew, I'll make my post on Spider-Man later. Would it be okay with you if you waited to post your counter until I finished up on Spidey? Thanks.

#7 Edited by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries @omgomgwtfwtf I hate to interfere but I have to say a couple things. Firstly, everyone does get 15 minutes prep, dont know if you realized that and secondly could you please list gear?

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#8 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: Ok, I'll use the 15 minutes to create a strategy; while Panther stays aware, moving at ground level, Spider-Man will be keeping an eye at him from above to warn him with his spider-sense of any dangers. Still, I'll make my post on Spidey later.

Gear for T'Challa: Vibranium Suit and dual energy daggers. Or just one if it sounds better.

Gear for Spider-Man: Unlimited Web Cartridges.

@omgomgwtfwtf Does that sound ok to you?

#9 Posted by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries @omgomgwtfwtf I hate to interfere but I have to say a couple things. Firstly, everyone does get 15 minutes prep, dont know if you realized that and secondly could you please list gear?

X-23 and Daken don't really carry much on their person, given that they are walking weapons in themselves. For Nick Fury, I will just give him his standard gear, which would involve his SHIELD suit, guns, and small gadgets.

@omgomgwtfwtf Does that sound ok to you?

That is fine with me.

#11 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries Great didnt mean to sound rude just had to adress it

Oh yeah, no worries :)

I'll be posting for Spidey soon.

#12 Edited by cameron83 (6416 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries: This is an awesome thread. I can't wait to see this debate unfold

I have a BP respect thread for you,though (two,actually)

But it is only a very skim showing of his feats and such.

#13 Edited by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Man

I don't think this man needs introduction. Basically, when Peter was a teenager, he was bitten by a radioactive spider and was granted the "proportionate powers of a spider". Still a teen, he created his web cartridges, which would hold his non-organic webbing, strong enough to allow him to move himself through the city and hold opponents even stronger than himself. And blah, blah, blah...

Strategy

Not really much to say. With the fifteen minutes, Spider-Man will be moving himself alongside T'Challa, who will be covering the grounds. That way, neither him or Panther will be taken by surprise, partly by BP's senses and mostly by Peter's spider sense that will warn him about Daken or X-23.

Now, he is the strong link of my team. Though T'Challa will play a huge part here with his energy daggers and his bad@ss resistance, Spider-Man is stronger, faster and more agile than all of them together, not to mention that now he doesn't have morals, which is a factor that is constantly holding him back in comics. If he doesn't want to, neither Daken or Laura will be touching him. He can't stick to walls and keep shooting them with his webbing, while T'Challa stabs them. That probably won't be happening though. Spider-Man, without pulling him punches, is arguably strong enough to KO both of your team members or at least weaken them so BP can have the chance to land a stab from an energy dagger.

Wow, I keep constantly forgetting that Fury is in this as well. To be honest, I don't think he'll be that important here and the peeps with the claws would maybe even rather work together than work with the head director of shield. Regardless, a punch from a morals off Spider-Man should take care of him.

A few feats from the Spider:

Spider Sense

Now, this, like I've already said, is the main reason why Daken and Laura won't be sneak attacking any of my team members. To be honest, T'Challa could probably sense any of them sneaking up just like he did with Kraven, at plain nighttime, while there were probably even a bunch of noise from cars, turned on TVs, etc. Now, with the spider sense, they would see them coming from 100 meters of distance.

Strength

Here are just a few of Pete's many strength feats:

Scans 1-4: Probably Spider-Man's most famous strength feat and his first one ever of actual relevance. After an exhausting fight with Doc Ock, a weakened Spider-Man, with no leverage at all, lifts what seems to be easily at least ten tons.

Scan 5: He says he can lift hundreds of times his own body weight.

Rest of scans: Probably Spidey's second most famous strength feat. Tired, he lifts the entire daily bugle building. That must weight, what... about 35+ tons at least.

Speed/Agility

Without a doubt, Spider-Man is one of the most agile heroes from Marvel at his power tier. These are just a few feats that prove that Peter would have no problems at dodging Daken and X-23's attacks:

Scan 1: First panel only. A simple feat of Spider-Man's agility and leaping.

Scan 2: Another agility feat.

Scan 3: More agility.

Scan 4: Effortlessly dodging gunfire from various snipers.

Scan 5: More gunfire dodging.

Scan 6: Aaand even some more...

A few more scans:

Scan 1: A van is thrown at him, with driver in. Spider-Man enters the van (while it is mid-air), saves the driver and gets out of the opposite end of the van before it hits the wall. If we try some calculations, the van would be going at about 40 MPH (it is thrown by guy who is physically stronger then Spidey) and was only about five meters away from hitting the wall. Which means that Spider-Man did all that in about one third of a second, give or take some.

Scan 2: Blitzing some armed thugs.

Durability

Not only is he agile, strong, fast, etc, but is also quite durable. Once, he did go through all of his first encounters with his main arch enemies in rapid succession. He withstands blows from Lizard, Vulture and others without breaks. Not only a feat of durability, but also incredible stamina. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the scans for that. Still, onto the scans that I did find:

Scans 1-2: Doc Ock brings a building down on Spider-Man. In the next panel, he doesn't even seem to be hurt.

Scan 3: He is sent at the speed of a speeding bullet at raw metal and survives.

Scans 4-5: Falls from a building and survives.

Scan 6: Graviton collapses a building on Peter and he survives.

Fighting Skills

Fighting a bunch of warriors (one scan missing)

Still, that's not really the most important factor of Peter's fighting skills. In Spider-Island, since he had lost his spider sense, he trained with Shang-Chi and created the Way of the Spider, which more than compensated for the loss of his spider sense. With his spider-sense AND without morals, he'll be practically untouchable. He won't be pulling his punches and with his fighting skills and agility, can dodge any of team claw's attacks.

Damn, that's pretty small.

Here's the link to the picture: http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130110010808/marveldatabase/images/d/d0/2594574-asm_31_32.jpg

#14 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries: This is an awesome thread. I can't wait to see this debate unfold

I have a BP respect thread for you,though (two,actually)

But it is only a very skim showing of his feats and such.

Every little bit counts, especially with the effort that you put into the thread :p

#15 Posted by cameron83 (6416 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83 said:

@tomlikesfries: This is an awesome thread. I can't wait to see this debate unfold

I have a BP respect thread for you,though (two,actually)

But it is only a very skim showing of his feats and such.

Every little bit counts, especially with the effort that you put into the thread :p

Thanks:

http://www.electricferret.com/forum/index.php/topic/30724-black-panther-aka-the-most-dangerous-man-alive-official-thread/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/black-panther-356/black-panther-respect-thread-593145/

http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=4a4593753180d14b8d4a0ca850cc109a&topic=4930.0

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/KingAvengerMarvel/news/?a=76196

Others can be seen on "Black Panther vs" type threads

#16 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: Oh, I thought you meant that you had created the threads :p. Thanks for those.

#17 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries:

Okay, I will start of by saying that his vibranium armor, while impressive, won't protect T'Challa from getting gutted. It can be cut and has been, numerous of times, by weapons that are inferior to adamantium.

Next I will move on to the reflex feats you posted, while impressive, are also pretty useless against Daken. Daken has used his disappearing trick on Wolverine and Deadpool. Both of whom, who have enhanced reflexes, with the former being one of the best hand to hand combatants on Earth (if not the best).

Black Panther's reflexes are not superior to Wolverine or Deadpool's, given that Black Panther and Deadpool have fought evenly with each other before.

If Daken replicates any of the feats he did on Wolverine or Deadpool, your team will be dead, because they can't heal from getting their hearts destroyed or their hands cut off.

Now onto to strength, I will begin by saying that Black Panther's strength is completely irrelevant in this situation. We both know that X-23 and Daken have taken worst punishment and survived.

For one, Daken has remained conscious from being punched by an angry Thing. A person who is substantially stronger than Black Panther.

Laura, on the other hand, has gotten her entire face melted off by Hazmat, and all it did was piss her off even more.

Read from right to left.

Likewise, fighting skill, while not entirely irrelevant holds little weight as Daken has beaten some of the best fighters in Marvel, like Deadpool, Wolverine, and Cyber. Laura also has exceptional hand to hand capabilities as noted by Wolverine himself, someone she has beaten as well.

The durability showings you posted are versus blunt force, my team doesn't employ blunt force trauma, instead they cut and slash. As shown above, Black Panther's suit can be cut and slashed.

As for your tech, that won't help either, even if you get a headshot in, my team would just get back up (barring Nick Fury, but he's fighting from afar, and not close range). The scans with Ultron area also misleading, Ultron was completely unhurt by the attack. He goes on to pummel Black Panther into the ground the very next page.

Let's move on to Spider-man now. While I do admit that his spider-sense will pose a problem, Peter will still fall eventually.

I don't want to blow up this thread with unnecessary scans, so I will keep the rest pretty brief.

1) Spider-man does have impressive strength feats, but Daken and X-23 have taken hits from stronger foes, and kept on going.

2) Speed/agility is good, but pheromones would pretty much negate this benefit, as shown with the Daken and Spider-man fight above. The only thing that will change is that Daken won't pull his punches.

3) Durability showings are also irrelevant because adamantium > durability. Daken's bone claws have cut through Skaar and Hulk's skin before. Muramasa Blade has also punched right through Norman Osborn when he was in the Iron Patriot armor.

4) Fighting skills are also pretty irrelevant because Spider-man's new skills are not on par with Laura or Daken's, not even close. A crash course in kung fu doesn't equal being a master. His pressure point techniques won't work on Laura or Daken thanks to their healing factors.

5) Webbing my team up will prove very difficult when your vision is being hampered by pheromones. My team is also naturally fast to begin with, with Laura being faster and more agile than Logan and Daken having his disappearing act (which he has effectively used on Spider-man before).

I will conclude by saying that my team has the capabilities to dish significant and lethal damage with their claws, have the healing factor to shrug off blows and wounds from yours, and are skilled enough to do so.

You have yet to refute Daken's pheromone powers, which would greatly hinder your team's ability to defend themselves.

Also, I think you're mistaken about how Daken's disappearing trick works. He doesn't actually sneak up on you, he literally disappears from your central vision and shows up where you don't expect it. He can use it to be stealthy, but he can use during a fight (as shown with the Wolverine and Deadpool fights).

Lastly, I'm not entirely convinced with your plan with Spider-man. Having a bright red and blue costumed hero jumping around through the air will be pretty obvious to my team. Not to mention that his spider-sense won't react unless he's in direct danger. So if my team just jumps Black Panther, who is alone on the ground, he's going to die pretty fast versus two Wolverine copies.

#18 Edited by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: In the second scan you posted, the knife just breaks as its kinetic energy is just absorbed. I don't see how that's a low showing, especially since it's a blow from Killmonger. Not to mention that taking the force of a speeding freight train with the suit sounds worse than getting stabbed with simple metal. It does not sound possible for it to be broken by any metal. Besides being one of the hardest metals in the MU, though it's still below adamantium, it breaks all of the momentum from the hit.

Also shown recently by Panther's vibranium suit is a teleportation device. In fact, what I'm about to show is also a good reaction feat. He was about to be hit from behind and teleported at perfect timing. If he feels like your duo are too much for him, he can just teleport away to catch his breath.

Wolverine has also commented on T'Challa's speed before. He tried hitting him and was thrown into a few people. Not that it means much, but let's not forget that, like shown before, he's already mentioned how he knows every single martial art on Earth and it was no hyperbole. Anyway:

Scan:

Wolverine and Deadpool have both fought numerous times before. There are different results every time though. However, Wade did beat Logan in Wolverine: Origins. On the other hand, the scan you posted doesn't show much. It's just a few panels of them fighting and we don't even know the outcome. Just thought it was worth mentioning as well that Wolverine has also commented on how he is faster than Laura on Uncanny X-Men #451. She was enraged and ready for an attack, when he just grabs her by the arm and stops her.

You know what; you're right; Panther's strength isn't of much relevance here. However, that's not how he'll prove himself useful. The strong link (literally strong) is Spider-Man. T'Challa will be a game changer though. With his intangible energy daggers, he can penetrate through either one of Daken's or Laura's bodies. Since we're talking about that, let me just say that, in that Ultron scan, I didn't mean to show that Black Panther can beat one such as Ultron, but my point was to show the capabilities of his daggers and how he will easily "cut" through their bodies. In fact, X-23 doesn't even have an adamantium skeleton, but her healing factor is pretty damn impressive as shown by your scan. However, having your skin and tissues burnt off is quite different than getting stabbed in the face multiple times by an energy dagger. Maybe we can't put her down permanently, but definitely get a first kill on her. Black Panther also has impressive feats of energy blast resistance with his Vibranium Suit, such as getting blasted by an angry Stardust.

Also, that scan of yours which shows Daken "beating" Spider-Man is out of context. If I remember correctly, that happened in Amazing Spider-Man #597 and he really was getting the upper hand at first through his pheromones. However, because of the Spider-Sense and the Spider-Sense only, he was able to overcome the pheromones and easily knocked out Daken, leaving him on a cracked floor. And that was when his morals codes applied. He has none here.

Not sure either what you mean by "getting back up". From whom exactly? My team consists of two of some of the smartest people on the Marvel Universe. With the 15 minutes prep time, Spider-Man will warn T'Challa about Daken's pheromones as they have fought before. And, as you can see in your own scan, the Spider-Sense prevents Wolverine's son or Laura from sneaking up on any of my team members.

1) Spider-man does have impressive strength feats, but Daken and X-23 have taken hits from stronger foes, and kept on going.

Daken has already been knocked out in issue #597 by a morals on Spider-Man that didn't even know the Way of the Spider back then.

2) Speed/agility is good, but pheromones would pretty much negate this benefit, as shown with the Daken and Spider-man fight above. The only thing that will change is that Daken won't pull his punches.

The Spider-Sense still warns him from any of Daken's hits, like he said in the first panel. Besides, Spider-Man now already knows him. He knows how to deal with Daken and won't pull his punches either.

3) Durability showings are also irrelevant because adamantium > durability. Daken's bone claws have cut through Skaar and Hulk's skin before. Muramasa Blade has also punched right through Norman Osborn when he was in the Iron Patriot armor.

Maybe so, but, then again, Daken didn't seem to have hurt Spidey so badly in your scans. And I still insist, the Vibranium Suit's molecules are at a temperature of absolute zero, meaning that there's no momentum in their punches.

4) Fighting skills are also pretty irrelevant because Spider-man's new skills are not on par with Laura or Daken's, not even close. A crash course in kung fu doesn't equal being a master. His pressure point techniques won't work on Laura or Daken thanks to their healing factors.

Haha, it's no crash course in Kung Fu. Let's not forget that Spider-Man already had quite a bit of knowledgde of the martial arts from all of the years under the costume. Here's Marvel's website description on the way of the spider:

"Peter Parker combined his bullying experiences, his superhuman capabilities, concepts from Captain America's Fighting Form, and his training from Shang-Chi to create it. He also increased his skill with it using his now returned Spider-Sense. He also combined his mastery of acrobatics into the Way of the Spider. He uses this fighting style to counter all types of combatants and it complements to his superhuman powers."

5) Webbing my team up will prove very difficult when your vision is being hampered by pheromones. My team is also naturally fast to begin with, with Laura being faster and more agile than Logan and Daken having his disappearing act (which he has effectively used on Spider-man before).

Pheromones will be a problem, but Spider-Man has his Spider-Sense to keep him from getting blinded. My team isn't stupid, they will deal with Daken before, since he is the bigger threat with his pain in the a$$ pheromones :p. Peter has already knocked him out before and now he has the help of a man who knows every martial art on Earth and has some pretty impressive tech.

And I do believe that your last statement is false. At many times before, while patrolling through the city, Spider-Man's sense has gone off because of a villain wearing a secret disguise or whatever, whilst he was in absolutely no danger, meaning that he can even locate dangerous people nearby with his Spider-Sense.

"he can always sense the exact direction of trouble".

"It reacts to all threats, even if they are from someone who is not usually a menace to him".

So, a quick breakthrough of how my team will play it:

Black Panther will be quietly and slowly making his way through the jungle while Spider-Man gives him cover from the top of the trees. He won't be web swinging by the way. I do believe your team outclasses mine in tracking, but, like I've already shown, Peter can also keep track of where Daken and X-23 will be through his Spider-Sense. When he believes that the time is right, he will engage X-23 ALONE. Daken will try to help her and confuse Spider-Man through his pheromones. Shortly after, before Spidey is outmatched by them both, Panther will teleport right behind Daken and stab him in the head with an energy dagger. A couple of times actually, to make sure that he's down for good or at least gets the first kill. After that, it's them both versus Laura.

Thanks for the good debate so far by the way!

#19 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries:

In the second scan you posted, the knife just breaks as its kinetic energy is just absorbed. I don't see how that's a low showing, especially since it's a blow from Killmonger. Not to mention that taking the force of a speeding freight train with the suit sounds worse than getting stabbed with simple metal. It does not sound possible for it to be broken by any metal. Besides being one of the hardest metals in the MU, though it's still below adamantium, it breaks all of the momentum from the hit.

You're comparing apple to oranges. Just because his armor can withstand blunt force trauma does not mean it can take stabbing or cuts. For example, Kevlar can protect you from bullets, but won't do jack shit versus a knife.

Also shown recently by Panther's vibranium suit is a teleportation device. In fact, what I'm about to show is also a good reaction feat. He was about to be hit from behind and teleported at perfect timing. If he feels like your duo are too much for him, he can just teleport away to catch his breath.

That is not his vibranium suit at all. That is the current King of the Dead Black Panther. He doesn't use vibranium anymore because it was all destroyed during the Doom War Arc. He needed to use a energy shield to defend himself from laser fire in the same comic.

Wolverine has also commented on T'Challa's speed before. He tried hitting him and was thrown into a few people. Not that it means much, but let's not forget that, like shown before, he's already mentioned how he knows every single martial art on Earth and it was no hyperbole.

The scan I showed with Daken is more impressive because A) he left Wolverine's central vision without him noticing and B) was able to stab him in the back right through his heart. The difference being that Wolverine could not even react to Daken's attack.

Wolverine and Deadpool have both fought numerous times before. There are different results every time though. However, Wade did beat Logan in Wolverine: Origins. On the other hand, the scan you posted doesn't show much. It's just a few panels of them fighting and we don't even know the outcome. Just thought it was worth mentioning as well that Wolverine has also commented on how he is faster than Laura on Uncanny X-Men #451. She was enraged and ready for an attack, when he just grabs her by the arm and stops her.

Daken and Laura are both faster than Wolverine. They don't have an extra 100 lbs weighing them down.

My point with the Deadpool and Black Panther scan is that they all have relatively the same combat speed. Nothing suggests that Black Panther has any reflexes significantly better than Wolverine's or Deadpool's. Both of whom, who have been unable to react to Daken's disappearing act.

Laura actually has a better track record than Wolverine versus Spider-man and has shown to be quicker and more agile than him.

You know what; you're right; Panther's strength isn't of much relevance here. However, that's not how he'll prove himself useful. The strong link (literally strong) is Spider-Man. T'Challa will be a game changer though. With his intangible energy daggers, he can penetrate through either one of Daken's or Laura's bodies. Since we're talking about that, let me just say that, in that Ultron scan, I didn't mean to show that Black Panther can beat one such as Ultron, but my point was to show the capabilities of his daggers and how he will easily "cut" through their bodies. In fact, X-23 doesn't even have an adamantium skeleton, but her healing factor is pretty damn impressive as shown by your scan. However, having your skin and tissues burnt off is quite different than getting stabbed in the face multiple times by an energy dagger. Maybe we can't put her down permanently, but definitely get a first kill on her. Black Panther also has impressive feats of energy blast resistance with his Vibranium Suit, such as getting blasted by an angry Stardust.

Explain how cutting them would be anymore damaging than what they already suffered? Daken and X-23 have fought versus each other and fought versus Wolverine (so they are no stranger to be cut and stabbed), have been riddled with bullets, caught in point-blank explosions, and pretty much been dismembered every which way or not. 'Killing' them for a split second is not particularly effective, especially when his senses are being dulled via pheromones and there are two of them on his back.

As for the underlined part, X-23 had her entire face melted off by Hazmat's radiation. Not just a little burn, we're talking about radiation. Here eyes and face were gone and she was still not even fazed by it. X-23 and Daken also have better healing factors than Wolverine because they don't have an adamantium skeleton constantly poisoning them.

Also, that scan of yours which shows Daken "beating" Spider-Man is out of context. If I remember correctly, that happened in Amazing Spider-Man #597 and he really was getting the upper hand at first through his pheromones. However, because of the Spider-Sense and the Spider-Sense only, he was able to overcome the pheromones and easily knocked out Daken, leaving him on a cracked floor. And that was when his morals codes applied. He has none here.

That is the entire reason why I showed it. Pheromones can effectively beat your team. It will dull your senses and keep your team from fighting at their best. Like I said before, Daken won't be pulling his punches versus Spider-man like he did in that fight. He punched Peter at one point, instead of slashing his face open, because Norman wanted to kill him. Only afterwards does Spider-man manage to beat him. The scans I posted clearly show that Spider-man was under the effect of pheromones as shown by art and stated by Peter himself.

I would also like to note that Daken disappearing act also worked on Peter. He was able to sneak up on him in the beginning as noted by Peter and was able to use it dodge webbing, in conjunction with pheromones.

Not sure either what you mean by "getting back up". From whom exactly? My team consists of two of some of the smartest people on the Marvel Universe. With the 15 minutes prep time, Spider-Man will warn T'Challa about Daken's pheromones as they have fought before. And, as you can see in your own scan, the Spider-Sense prevents Wolverine's son or Laura from sneaking up on any of my team members.

And what would they do in 15 mins to utilize their intelligence? How would Peter know that he's fighting Daken to begin with? He won't notice Daken before Daken or Laura smell him. Peter Parker is a loud, blue, and red costumed hero running around in a green forest. It should be pretty apparent who is going to notice whom first. Also, I still fail to see how spider-sense is going to warn Black Panther when it only works for Spider-man. If spider-man is not in danger it won't go off. I have already said that because your are splitting up your team, with Spider-man taking the high ground, you are effectively leaving Black Panther to fend for himself.

Daken has already been knocked out in issue #597 by a morals on Spider-Man that didn't even know the Way of the Spider back then.

And Spider-man has also gotten stabbed by Daken and had trouble fighting Laura. So I fail to see your point? One showing doesn't constitute normality for a character. Daken has taken hits from stronger foes (I mentioned this already) and remained conscious. He had Ares' axe embedded in his chest and all it did was inconvenience him.

Way of the Spider won't help because pressure points are useless versus Laura or Daken.

The Spider-Sense still warns him from any of Daken's hits, like he said in the first panel. Besides, Spider-Man now already knows him. He knows how to deal with Daken and won't pull his punches either.

You treat it like Daken didn't actually tag Spider-man twice before Spider-man KO'ed him. Also, I really don't see how one encounter means Spider-man would have a definitive way of beating him. I could equally say that since both Laura and Daken faced Spider-man already, they would know what to watch out for. Baseless statements don't really do much.

Haha, it's no crash course in Kung Fu. Let's not forget that Spider-Man already had quite a bit of knowledgde of the martial arts from all of the years under the costume. Here's Marvel's website description on the way of the spider:

It is a crash course. Peter Parker is not a martial artist by any means. He had quite a bit of street brawling experience from his years as a hero, but no formal training in technique, hence why Shang-Chi had to train him. I don't see how it is logical to assume that Peter's expedited lessons would somehow trump Laura or Daken's lifetime of training.

"Peter Parker combined his bullying experiences, his superhuman capabilities, concepts from Captain America's Fighting Form, and his training from Shang-Chi to create it. He also increased his skill with it using his now returned Spider-Sense. He also combined his mastery of acrobatics into the Way of the Spider. He uses this fighting style to counter all types of combatants and it complements to his superhuman powers."

Copy and pasting from Marvel wiki is looked down upon in a formal debate setting.

Pheromones will be a problem, but Spider-Man has his Spider-Sense to keep him from getting blinded. My team isn't stupid, they will deal with Daken before, since he is the bigger threat with his pain in the a$$ pheromones :p. Peter has already knocked him out before and now he has the help of a man who knows every martial art on Earth and has some pretty impressive tech.

I don't see how spider-sense is going to save Black Panther or give Spider-man the win when he has been tagged in the past by both Laura and Daken.

In a battle of attrition, my team will come out on top because of healing factor. We can trade punches, your team can't.

With Daken's muramasa blade implants, a single cut from him would be pretty devastating, because the wound won't close and you will risk bleeding out relatively quick, like a hemophiliac.

My team is intelligent enough to run back into the forest and wait for your team to bleed out.

And I do believe that your last statement if false. At many times before, while patrolling through the city, Spider-Man's sense has gone off because of a villain wearing a secret disguise or whatever, whilst he was in absolutely no danger, meaning that he can even locate dangerous people nearby with his Spider-Sense.

Do I honestly need to mention every time that Spider-man has been hit? He has been tagged by Bullseye, Captain America, Blade, Taskmaster, etc. before. So I really think you're relying on the Spider-sense too heavily. It's basically your only saving grace and the crutch of your argument.

#20 Edited by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: You're comparing apple to oranges. Just because his armor can withstand blunt force trauma does not mean it can take stabbing or cuts. For example, Kevlar can protect you from bullets, but won't do jack shit versus a knife.

It can for the most part. Besides being one of the hardest metals in the MU, it drives the weapon of all its force and speed. Besides, the only way your team will even have the chance to lay a finger on Black Panther would be because of Daken's pheromones. He'll be taken care of by Spider-Man. Don't get me wrong, I know that he's confused him before, but Spider-Man also pulls his punches most of the time. For example, the scan you posted of his fight with X-23 has no relevance. His morals applied in that battle, he had no idea who the hell Laura was and was still making jokes as usual. Here he fights without morals, which is already the usual way of X-23 and Daken.

In the American Son story, Spider-Man only came around to rely on his Spider-Sense later on in the fight. He won't make the same mistake again. If you notice, he was also cracking jokes during the fight, whereas his focus here will be incredibly bigger. Anyway, back onto topic (BP's suit). T'Challa is more skilled than Laura (not saying faster, just more skilled in fighting), which is proved in his fight against the Super Skrull. He had the technique of some of Marvel's greatest fighters all in one, not to mention his strength AND his adamantium claws. And he still snapped his freaking arm off. What's stopping him from doing the same to X-23? And I realize that her healing factor is insane and she has reattached broken body parts before in seconds, so Black Panther would pull it off entirely.

The key to winning this fight is taking out Daken quickly, and I'd still rely on my former plan, but there's one major issue. I did forget that that suit was the King of the Dead one, so forgive me about that. However, here's the thing: Spider-Man now knows that he needs to rely on his Spider-Sense to beat Daken, so he won't be majorly affected by the pheromones. And this time he won't be pulling his punches either and neither will he be caught by surprise. Peter's smart, he won't be making the same mistake twice, so basically we're starting off at the point in which he starts focusing in their first fight. After that, if you read the issue, you'll know how effortlessly he beats the living crap out of Daken.

As for Laura, Daken will be busy fighting Spider-Man, so I assume Panther won't be affected by his pheromones. And I don't see how X-23 resisting burns or radiation compares to an intangible knife. He can penetrate that through her head and I don't think she'll be in conditions to keep fighting with an energy dagger through her brain that cuts through metal like it's butter, even with the bada$$ healing factor.

Another thing about T'Challa that I haven't mentioned yet are his anti-metal claws, which can decompose any metal, even adamantium from Laura's claws or the Muramasa claws:

Thanks to Jashro and his respect thread:

And even if BP was stabbed by Laura, he has a few pain tolerance feats that prove that he'd still be able to stand on his feet and fight, though I don't really expect seeing him getting hit, just like he didn't in his fight with Deadpool, who also has years of training as a mercenary. Thing is, T'Challa knows every martial art on Earth, he won't be that easily stabbed.

Copy and pasting from Marvel wiki is looked down upon in a formal debate setting.

Wow, really? So, basically, giving a quick description of the fighting style from the site while I still addressed it is like a blasphemy? It's not like I'm structuring my entire argument around that. I see people copying and pasting descriptions on their characters all the time, people have already done it on this tourney even. But whatever...

Anyway, onto Spider-Man vs. Daken in more detail. Yes, I know he's been tagged by many before, just like Wally West has as well, as well as Daken, X-23, etc. But it's worth remembering that his morals code applies every single time he fights and he never goes full out. Sure, Laura may be more agile than Wolverine and whatnot, but that's still nowhere near Spider-Man's enhanced physicals. He's at least 10 times stronger, more agile and faster than Logan. I'm not going to start posting numerous scans again, but as you saw, he's effortlessly dodged lasers before and can lift at LEAST 30+ tons. Here are a few more feats of speed and reflexes.

Scan 1: One of Spidey's most impressive ever reaction feats.

Scan 2: Through his agility and speed, he covers 2 miles in 5 seconds.

He gets hit often, like any other character. If he didn't there would be no fun in reading a Spider-Man comic book. Though in an all serious morals off encounter, with all things considered and plot devices aside, getting hit by someone arguably slower than him is most likely not going to happen. He's already claimed that he can see every single move that his opponent's making, even in the dark with his Spider-Sense. Though I'm aware of Daken's agility, Peter has the capability of dodging his attacks. If raw strength isn't enough to put him down, he can still restrain him, so Panther has the chance of using his anti-metal claws or energy daggers.

And knowing the Way of Spider is not just relying on pressure points. He was trained by Shang-Chi, one of the greatest, if not the greatest martial artist in the Marvel Universe. It means that he'll have the upper hand in a fight and won't just rely on his superior physicals, but instead in his spider-sense that will warn him in advance of any moves and his agility and fighting skills combined to subdue Daken.

Also, a fast change of plan. Nothing major, but as I realized my mistake in relying on teleportation, Spider-Man will now be making his way through the jungle by hopping from tree trunk to tree trunk, instead of staying on top of the trees, so he can stay within communication range of T'Challa when he senses danger nearby.

A quick note as well: Wolverine has beaten Daken more times than the opposite and Daken only beat Cyber because of his heart conditions.

#21 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries:

It can for the most part. Besides being one of the hardest metals in the MU, it drives the weapon of all its force and speed.

Do I really need to show you all the times vibranium has been destroyed? You're putting a lot of stock into something that isn't how you describe it as. Vibranium has been destroyed more times than adamantium has and I don't want to repeat this point over again. Adamantium claws will cut through Black Panther's vibranium mesh because lesser things have penetrated it before.

Besides, the only way your team will even have the chance to lay a finger on Black Panther would be because of Daken's pheromones.

Not really. You have posted nothing to suggest that Black Panther is fast enough to casually dodge Daken or X-23.

He'll be taken care of by Spider-Man. Don't get me wrong, I know that he's confused him before, but Spider-Man also pulls his punches most of the time.

You have yet to give me a scenario as to how you would accomplish that. You have not made any substantial claim for me to refute.

For example, the scan you posted of his fight with X-23 has no relevance. His morals applied in that battle, he had no idea who the hell Laura was and was still making jokes as usual. Here he fights without morals, which is already the usual way of X-23 and Daken.

The point of the scan was to refute your claim that Peter's spider-sense would allow to dodge every blow made against him. Even though we all know Peter gets tagged, even with spider-sense.

It's silly to say otherwise.

In the American Son story, Spider-Man only came around to rely on his Spider-Sense later on in the fight. He won't make the same mistake again. If you notice, he was also cracking jokes during the fight, whereas his focus here will be incredibly bigger.

I really don't understand what you're trying to convey here. Your point is lost to me. What would Spider-man do that wouldn't be a repeat of his last match with Daken, with the exception of Daken not holding back? A morals off Spider-man doesn't change the fact that the pheromones will still mess with his perception.

Anyway, back onto topic (BP's suit). T'Challa is more skilled than Laura, which is proved by his fight against the Super Skrull. He had the technique of some of Marvel's greatest fighters all in one, not to mention his strength AND his adamantium claws. And he still snapped his freaking arm off. What's stopping him from doing the same to X-23? And I realize that her healing factor is insane and she has reattached broken body parts before in seconds, so Black Panther can pull it off entirely.

Except that you didn't mention that the Super Skrull couldn't access all those powers simultaneously. It could only use them one at a time...The Super Skrull also doesn't have a healing factor like Laura, nor the feats to back up its claim to having a bunch of people's powers and skills. It's all hyperbole really. He also gloated for much of the fight (something that Laura doesn't do) and had subtle weaknesses for Black Panther to observe? What would Black Panther do to Laura? Dislocate her arm? Shatter her knee cap? Poke out an eye? Those are all flesh wounds that can be healed in a matter of moments. If Laura did the same thing to Black Panther, he isn't going to heal from that, instead he's going to get weaker and weaker. Like I said in my previous post, in a war of attrition, my team will win. Black Panther may have superior hand to hand skills than Laura, but so does Lady Deathstrike, Wolverine, and Daken. All people who Laura has fought and won versus. There are many factors to a fight than just hand to hand combat.

The key to winning this fight is taking out Daken quickly, and I'd still rely on my former plan, but there's one major issue. I did forget that that suit was the King of the Dead one, so forgive me about that. However, here's the thing: Spider-Man now knows that he needs to rely on his Spider-Sense to beat Daken, so he won't be majorly affected by the pheromones. And this time he won't be pulling his punches either and neither will he be caught by surprise. Peter's smart, he won't be making the same mistake twice, so basically we're starting off at the point in which he starts focusing in their first fight. After that, if you read the issue, you'll know how effortlessly he beats the living crap out of Daken.

And how would you accomplish that? Daken's disappearing trick gives him added stealth, not to mention that pheromones are pretty instantaneous in effect. Spider-man wouldn't know he's fighting Daken, until Daken decides to reveal himself. There is no way that Spider-man is going to be able to spot Daken before the opposite occurs. Daken's knack for stealth is good enough to trump Wolverine's enhanced senses. So, my team basically has the added benefit of being able to initiate this fight when we want to. Also, as I mentioned before, my team's first target is Black Panther, not Spider-man. So, while Spider-man's spider-sense can help him evade attacks, it doesn't help him fight better. Being disorientated by pheromones will definitely impair his ability to help Black Panther.

As for Laura, Daken will be busy fighting Spider-Man, so I assume Panther won't be affected by his pheromones. And I don't see how X-23 resisting burns or radiation compares to an intangible knife. He can penetrate that through her head and I don't think she'll be in conditions to keep fight with an energy dagger through her brain, even with the bada$$ healing factor.

Except, you know, that Daken and Laura are going to jump Black Panther...

I don't see how Spider-man is going to fight Daken, when my team is ambushing yours. My team consists of people who have superior tracking, senses, and stealth capabilities. I already listed the reasons why my team would deduce your team's location before yours notices mines, so I'm not going reiterate the details.

And even if BP was stabbed by Laura, he has a few pain tolerance feats that prove that he'd still be able to stand on his feet and fight, though I don't really him getting hit, just like he didn't in his fight with Deadpool, who also has years of training as a mercenary.

Pain tolerance is nice, but it would be pretty hard for BP to continue fighting if he's bleeding out, no? The nice thing about a healing factor is that my characters won't tire out that fast. X-23 and Daken can go weeks operating at a continuous level, just like Wolverine. Can the same be said about Black Panther? Fatigue is going to be an issue for your team and not mines.

Thing is, T'Challa knows every martial art on Earth, he won't be that easily stabbed.

So does Wolverine. It doesn't stop him from getting cut and stabbed by either X-23 or Daken.

Wow, really? So, basically, giving a quick description of the fighting style from the site while I still addressed it is like a blasphemy? It's not like I'm structuring my entire argument around that. I see people copying and pasting descriptions on their characters all the time, people have already done it on this tourney even. But whatever...

What was the point of the description? It is a baseless statement that has no factual evidence to back it up. Just because a bunch of other people do it, doesn't make it right. To declare that your actions are not wrong, because many people do it, is a fallacy (argumentum ad populum to be exact).

Anyway, onto Spider-Man vs. Daken in more detail. Yes, I know he's been tagged by many before, just like Wally West has as well, as well as Daken, X-23, etc. But it's worth remembering that his morals code applies every single time he fights and he never goes full out. Sure, Laura may be more agile than Wolverine and whatnot, but that's still nowhere near Spider-Man's enhanced physicals. He's at least 10 times stronger, more agile and faster than Logan. I'm not going to start posting numerous scans again, but as you saw, he's effortlessly dodged lasers before and can lift at LEAST 30+ tons. Here are a few more feats of speed and reflexes.

Can you back up that claim with any proof?

Spider-man may have superior physical stats (something I never challenged), but so does the majority of the people that the Wolverine family fight. What makes the Wolverine family special is their ability to absorb hits, and the fact that the damage they inflict is more than they receive (at least lasting damage).

Yeah, you showed me scans of Spider-man punching out Kraven's kids, but Daken and X-23 would murder them as well. During his fight with Kraven, while Peter did win in the end, he was still fighting hard to beat him. Once you get into a nitty gritty fight, anything can happen. It becomes substantially more difficult to dodge blows when you're in melee range of the other person, grappling in the dirt. Also, Peter has already admitted before that he sometimes doesn't listen to spider-sense if his mind is preoccupied with another task.

He gets hit often, like any other character. If he didn't there would be no fun in reading a Spider-Man comic book. Though in an all serious morals off encounter, with all things considered and plot devices aside, getting hit by someone arguably slower than him is most likely not going to happen. He's already claimed that he can see every single move that his opponent's making, even in the dark with his Spider-Sense. Though I'm aware of Daken's agility, Peter has the capability of dodging his attacks. If raw strength isn't enough to put him down, he can still restrain him, so Panther has the chance of using his anti-metal claws or energy daggers.

When did he say that? The spider-sense is strictly reactionary, it cannot see a person's moves. Rather, it's a limited form of precognition. Numerous of people have shown Spider-man that superior knowledge of fighting, whether it be tactical or hand to hand combat, can diminish Spider-man's chance of dodging through the spider-sense, by placing him in a situation where it would impossible for him to dodge.

Laura's mind has been conditioned since birth to analyze and predict multiple scenarios in any given environment. Her minds automatically discerns weaknesses in people through the physical reactions and traits. Her mind is also constantly thinking about the most concise way to kill people.

Laura may not be able to tag Spider-man at first, but she will adapt and place him a situation where he can't dodge, like backing him into a corner.

And knowing the Way of Spider is not just relying on pressure points. He was trained by Shang-Chi, one of the greatest, if not the greatest martial artist in the Marvel Universe. I means that he'll have the upper hand in a fight and won't just rely on his superior physicals.

Another baseless statement. Shang-Chi is not the greatest martial artist on Earth, let alone the Marvel Universe. Shang-Chi was defeated by Wolverine in hand to hand combat. Also, being taught by "one of the best hand to hand combatants on Earth" doesn't really equate to much. It's nothing more than hyperbole. For example, everyone and their mother has been trained by Captain America, yet no one would expect the majority of them to be great fighters.

I see it like this. Daken and X-23 can afford themselves the luxury of getting hurt because they can heal. Does that mean they are going to tank everything? No, of course not. But they will be tactical enough to lure opponents in, feigning weakness and baiting you in. A good example of this is Wolverine's fight with Silver Samurai. He gets stabbed through the stomach, but uses that opening to cut off Silver Samurai's hand.

Naturally, people fight with the expectation that their opponents would either block or evade your attacks. However, they won't expect their opponents to take the hit and use the opponent's attack as an opening to attack themselves. To better highlight this point, I will use this video from Samurai Champloo, with Jin's fight versus Kariya. Kariya is superior in every way, but loses in the end, because Jin opens himself up to attack, in order to use the opponent's attack as the opening for his own attack. If Daken or X-23 duplicate the same principle, they can do serious harm to their opponents, without suffering any lasting damage themselves. We could effectively replace both combatants with, for example, X-23 and Black Panther. Both will do their best to dodge attacks, with the expectation of hitting their foes when their guard is down. However, X-23 can feign having her guard down in order to lure Black Panther in. This involves both of them getting hurt in the process, but given that Laura can heal, she will come on top.

A quick note as well: Wolverine has beaten Daken more times than the opposite and Daken only beat Cyber because of his heart conditions.

I never said that Daken never lost to Wolverine, given that Wolverine killed Daken. However, Wolverine has admitted that Daken could kill him as well.

Also, you should reread the fight with Daken and Cyber. Daken was beating the crap out of Cyber, but couldn't hurt him because of his adamantium skin. So, he decided to induce a heart attack instead. Cyber was no way holding his own during that fight.

#22 Edited by Wolverine08 (26248 posts) - - Show Bio

Er, would you guys like to know that's it's not what you stab vibranium with, but how to stab it that will determine if the weave will be broken?

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#23 Edited by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Do I really need to show you all the times vibranium has been destroyed? You're putting a lot of stock into something that isn't how you describe it as. Vibranium has been destroyed more times than adamantium has and I don't want to repeat this point over again. Adamantium claws will cut through Black Panther's vibranium mesh because lesser things have penetrated it before.

Okay, I'll take your word for it. On the other hand, Black Panther won't be so easily hit, especially since he won't be underestimating his opponent. Instead, he knows what he'll be up against (Spider-Man gives him a description of Daken and X-23's abilities within the 15 min prep time). But I'll analyze this further ahead.

Not really. You have posted nothing to suggest that Black Panther is fast enough to dodge Daken or X-23.

I wasn't really thinking of dodging, but more like trading hits. To be honest, I consider X-23 a bigger threat than Daken. She's far more skilled, but what makes Daken so unique are his pheromones. Regardless, Panther will taking on X-23 instead of Logan's son, since Spider-Man is far more suited for a fight against him. Now, you're probably thinking; how will they trade hits if Laura has an insane healing factor and adamantium claws? Well, T'Challa will be relying on his anti-metal claws for the most part. With them, just like he tagged Wolverine in the previous scan I showed, he will be breaking down her claws at a molecular level. Either that or he tries to hold her off until Spider-Man is finished with Daken and they outnumber her, but I'll talk about that later.

Now, I recognize that, although Black Panther has proven to be faster than one such as Sabretooth and has appeared as a blur before to others, X-23 is more agile than him. Not by a large margin at all, but, yes she is. What gives Black Panther an edge is his tech though. His intangible energy daggers should be enough to put her down temporarily with a few stabs to the head (cuts through metal like butter, meaning that he should be able to KO her by cutting her brain) and his anti-metal claws can break down her adamantium, as they have done before.

I really don't understand what you're trying to convey here. The idea is lost in this sentence? What would Spider-man do that wouldn't be a repeat of his last match with Daken, with the exception of Daken not holding back? A morals off Spider-man doesn't change the fact that the pheromones will still mess with his perception.

I'm saying that Spider-Man has already beaten Daken, once he concentrated and used his Spider-Sense to guide him through the battle. He already knows how to deal with Daken's pheromones.

Except that you didn't mention that the Super Skrull couldn't access all those powers simultaneously. It could only use them one at a time...The Super Skrull also doesn't have a healing factor like Laura, nor the feats to back up its claim to having a bunch of people's powers and skills. It's all hyperbole really. He also gloated for much of the fight (something that Laura doesn't do) and had subtle weaknesses for Black Panther to observe? What would Black Panther do to Laura? Dislocate her arm? Shatter her knee cap? Poke out an eye? Those are all flesh wounds that can be healed in a matter of moments. If Laura did the same thing to Black Panther, he isn't going to heal from that, instead he's going to get weaker and weaker. Like I said in my previous post, in a war of attrition, my team will win. Black Panther may have superior hand to hand skills than Laura, but so does Lady Deathstrike, Wolverine, and Daken. All people who Laura has fought and won versus. There are many factors to a fight than just hand to hand combat.

A good observation. Still, he doesn't need them all at the same time. He so chooses what seems to be the most fitting skill for the occasion and still has what seems to be way above peak human strength. And does he really need the feats to prove that he copied those people's abilities? It's a Super Skrull, that's what he does and it is still stated by Panther. It has no indication of being a hyperbole. You make good points. However, none of those that you mentioned have the tech that BP has. He has inferior agility, but with superior fighting skill and tech, he can find a way to subdue Laura, be it through his energy daggers or decomposing her claws.

And how would you accomplish that? Daken's disappearing trick gives him added stealth, not to mention that pheromones are pretty instantaneous in effect. Spider-man wouldn't know he's fighting Daken, until Daken decides to reveal himself. There is no way that Spider-man is going to be able to spot Daken before the opposite occurs. Daken's knack for stealth is good enough to trump Wolverine's enhanced senses. So, my team basically has the added benefit of being able to initiate this fight when we want to. Also, as I mentioned before, my team's first target is Black Panther, not Spider-man. So, while Spider-man's spider-sense can help him evade attacks, it doesn't help him fight better. Being disorientated by pheromones will definitely impair his ability to help Black Panther.

Like I said, Spider-Man will be staying in higher ground. Daken's pheromones would normally camouflage him from either of my team members, but Spidey's sense will allow him to "see" them when they're approaching, just like he did in ASM #597. Daken's pheromones were at work and Peter was still able to sense him, which is why he won that fight. As soon as he senses them coming, he will interfere and take on Daken alone.

Except, you know, that Daken and Laura are going to jump Black Panther...

I don't see how Spider-man is going to fight Daken, when my team is ambushing yours. My team consists of people who have superior tracking, senses, and stealth capabilities. I already listed the reasons why my team would deduce your team's location before yours notices mines, so I'm not going reiterate the details.

Yes, Daken and X-23's stealth and tracking abilities are far superior than my team's. That I recognize, but they won't be ambushing mine as long as Spider-Man is around. I've already posted these scans, but a more specific view of them:

Scan 1: "It makes it almost impossible to sneak up on our hero... because he can almost always sense the direction of trouble!"

Scan 2: "Having a spider-sense is also a lot like possessing a personal radar unit!"

Pain tolerance is nice, but it would be pretty hard for BP to continue fighting if he's bleeding out, no? The nice thing about a healing factor is that my characters won't tire out that fast. X-23 and Daken can go weeks operating at a continuous level, just like Wolverine. Can the same be said about Black Panther? Fatigue is going to be an issue for your team and not mines.

Yes, your team's resistances are quite impressive. But Black Panther is no weakling either when it comes to resistance. I realize how having your team bleed out if practically impossible, but T'Challa has already taken full powered hits from an enraged Killmonger without his Vibranium Suit for 13 hours straight, with only 1 hour breaks in between. And it's not just taking blows from anyone, Erik is above peak human. I know what you're gonna say though: That's different than cutting and slashing. However, blows like that can also hurt one quite badly and a human can bleed out through that, especially if you're going through over half an entire day being beaten up by someone like Killmonger. Fatigue won't be a problem, Panther has faced worse things when it comes to stamina.

So does Wolverine. It doesn't stop him from getting cut and stabbed by either X-23 or Daken.

When has it ever been stated that Wolverine knows every martial art on Earth? And, most of the times that Logan and his son fought, Wolverine won most of the times. The same can't be said for Laura though...

Can you back up that claim with any proof?

Spider-man may have superior physical stats (something I never challenged), but so does the majority of the people that the Wolverine family fight. What makes the Wolverine family special is their ability to absorb hits, and the fact that the damage they inflict is more than they receive (at least lasting damage).

Yeah, you showed me scans of Spider-man punching out Kraven's kids, but Daken and X-23 would murder them as well. During his fight with Kraven, while Peter did win in the end, he was still fighting hard to beat him. Once you get into a nitty gritty fight, anything can happen. It becomes substantially more difficult to dodge blows when you're in melee range of the other person, grappling in the dirt. Also, Peter has already admitted before that he sometimes doesn't listen to spider-sense if his mind is preoccupied with another task.

Most certainly, yes.

For one, Spider-Man, tired and with no leverage, held up the Daily Bugle building, he's also reacted and dodged to numerous bullets, including a sniper rifle that was shot at him from a close distance moving at 4000 feet a second, covering 2 miles in 5 seconds, etc.

I don't think that'll be the case here, there will be nothing else that Peter will be preoccupied with. If he feels spaced out, he could always just leap and hold on to trees so he can have a chance to catch his breath or distract Daken with webbing, by pulling his feet with it or whatever. Anyway, I still feel confident that he can take on Daken, by focusing on his Spider-Sense. That way, he'll know any of his moves and will beat him just like he already has. An accuracy feat from the classics:

Hits a capsule moving on fast speed and then staying on it despite the wind resistance. The speed of re-entry capsules is usually in excess of Mach 1.

When did he say that? The spider-sense is strictly reactionary, it cannot see a person's moves. Rather, it's a limited form of precognition. Numerous of people have shown Spider-man that superior knowledge of fighting, whether it be tactical or hand to hand combat, can diminish Spider-man's chance of dodging through the spider-sense, by placing him in a situation where it would impossible for him to dodge.

"I can sense its every move, but I can't see what it is I'm fighting!" - In this case, he will know what he's up against however.

Another baseless statement. Shang-Chi is not the greatest martial artist on Earth, let alone the Marvel Universe. Shang-Chi was defeated by Wolverine in hand to hand combat. Also, being taught by "one of the best hand to hand combatants on Earth" doesn't really equate to much. It's nothing more than hyperbole. For example, everyone and their mother has been trained by Captain America, yet no one would expect the majority of them to be great fighters.

I said one of the best fighters.

It doesn't equate, that's a good point. However, in this case, it wasn't a crash course, Spider-Man trained for long periods, until he had fully mastered the Way of the Spider, a basically modified version of Shang-Chi's way of fighting. They're similar, but still different. However, given that his physicals are HIGHLY superior, he could just as easily beat Chi as well.

Now, about your strategy, it's really good thinking. On the other hand, I don't see it happening to Spidey. He won't rely on weapons, but instead, he'll throw off his best punches, without holding back on Daken. His pheromones won't affect him majorly, because of his Spider-Sense. In the end, the outcome of the fight will be just like the one in American Son. If he feels spaced out, he can temporarily flee like I've already said. As for Black Panther, although I've already agreed that his armor can be penetrated, I doubt he'll have his hand chopped off or anything like that, since the Vibranium Suit breaks momentum. He'll be firstly attempting to break down X-23's adamantium claws with his anti-matter ones. He isn't stupid, in fact, his senses are much more accurate than the Silver Samurai's and he has much better perception and thinking in battle.

#24 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries:

I'm curious at how Spider-man would know that he's fighting X-23 or Daken. The 15 mins of prep doesn't give you info of the opposing team. Neither does the op stipulate that you have prior knowledge. So, I find it unlikely that Spider-man would somehow know that he's facing Wolverine's spawns.

For the actual fight, you stated that you would X-23 face Black Panther and Daken face Spider-man. Well, I don't see how that is possible. It's not a closed arena where you get to choose who you engage, but rather it is fluid dynamic battle, where we are all facing each other. I have already stated that Daken and X-23 are going to bull rush Black Panther. Nick Fury, in the mean time, will be laying cover fire from a discreet location (more on him later).

The anti-metal claws are another iffy point. The problem with the scans you posted is that the anti-metal that was used to defeat Ultron was substantially larger than the pieces that compromise Black Panther's claws. The more of it you have, the stronger the effect. For example, in the scans you posted, the anti-metal's effect was able to melt all the metal in the vicinity, and not just Ultron. This is also mentioned in another story where if the Vibranium mound in Wakanda was turned into anti-metal, its effect would be continental. Lastly, if the anti-metal claws in Black Panther's suit was as powerful as the chunk that defeated Ultron, then its effects would prove detrimental to T'Challa's own vibranium armor. Also, if Black Panther's anti-metal claws were anywhere near the strength of the one that defeated Ultron, he could have used his claws to penetrate him (which never happened). So, it''s likely, from what we have seen, that Black Panther's anti-metal claws are not as potent as it can be. While it can rend through most metals, I doubt its ability to rend through vibranium or adamantium (unless you have scans to prove otherwise). Even if Black Panther's claws could cut Laura's adamantium claws, it wouldn't stop her from attacking. Underneath her adamantium claws are bone claws, just like Wolverine and Daken. Their bone claws are hard enough to cut through most metals and even hurt the Hulk (bone claw Wolverine and Daken have all hurt Hulk-level people with their bone claws, so it's not a stretch to assume X-23 can do the same thing, given that she's a clone of Wolverine). I also question how easily Black Panther could cut her adamantium claws. Her claws are longer than his, and in order to catch her blade, he must time his attacks perfectly. While not impossible for Black Panther, it would involve utmost precision and accuracy. These will be hampered by the pheromones that Daken releases, which would mess with his vision and depth-perception. The claws in her foot could also prove very detrimental for him as X-23 is deadly efficient in using them. While it's not wrong to compare X-23 to Wolverine, their fighting styles are inherently different. Wolverine, by nature, is a brawler, while X-23 is much more methodical and technical. Her moves are streamlined compared to his and every blows of hers are meant to kill.

"Each victim was cut and/or stabbed in either the brain stem, jugular or aorta with incredible precision."

Laura's knowledge of the human anatomy is so in-depth, that she can talk about 20+ different ways to kill someone without leaving any physical marks and even knows what kind of poisons to make to kill people without anyone knowing.

In a regular fight I would agree that Black Panther has a high chance of incapacitating Laura, but given the perimeters of this battle, he would be hard-pressed to do so. (Reasons stated above)

Your interpretation of how Spider-man is going to take down Daken is also problematic. Daken won't be fighting Peter, instead he will be with Laura attacking Black Panther. Peter Parker will of course help, but will be barraged by gunfire from Nick Fury, who will be attacking from a distance. Peter can either risk getting shot and help T'Challa or go after Nick Fury. If he does the latter, T'Challa won't stand a chance versus both Daken and X-23, while pheromones are affecting his fighting capabilities.

Here is a brief bio on Nick Fury:

In addition to what he has listed in his bio, he also carries a whole arsenal of gear, such as the following:

Shown were acid pellets, incendiary gun, miniature rocket gun, a magnetic repulsing watch, bombs, x-ray lenses, invisibility device, and hallucination-inducing cube.

Nick Fury is also not a bad hand to hand combatant, having stalemated Captain America before.

While I don't expect Nick Fury to win versus Spider-man (or survive for that matter), he can definitely stall for a bit. If you decide not to go after Nick Fury, his gadgets would prove invaluable in this match-up. For example, he can use his magnetic watch to mess with Black Panther's vibranium suit and use his explosives to cause chaos.

Before I continue any further, I will take this time to explain why the Super Skrulls are all hyperbole. For one, the Super Skrulls don't have the feats to suggest they are equal to their people whose powers they replicated. Secondly, there is nothing to weigh against these statements. For example, Kl'rt is supposed to have augmented levels of the Fantastic Four's powers, but doesn't have the feats to even match the originals. Another example would be how Beast stated that Ms. Marvel gained a healing factor superior to Wolverine's, yet we all know that is complete bullshit, given that she later suffers from a brain tumor, which leads to long-term amnesia. If she really had a superior healing factor to Wolverine, the tumor should have been a non-issue. So basically, it is a hyperbole when the showings contradict what is stated (i.e. it doesn't live up to the hype).

Now back onto to the debate, the next thing I want to talk about is your claim that Spider-man's spider-sense would allow him to know where my team is. First off, Spider-man's spider-sense is purely reactive. It does not actively locate people, rather it tells Spider-man of impending danger and the location which it is coming from. Nor does Peter's spider-sense tell him who he is fighting. It is by no means an active radar like Daredevil's. By the time Spider-man's spider-sense kicks in, my team's plan will be set into motion. So, while I don't necessary get the drop on your team, I will be the one to instigate the fight. During the 15 mins prep, my team will deduce several strategies to fight a whole array of enemies. This is not unreasonable, given that I have three highly tactical people, all of whom that have years of combat experience. Nick Fury is by far the most paranoid person on Earth and has contingency plans set up for nearly every scenario.

(You also stated that Spider-man will have the high ground, despite earlier stating that he would be near ground level with Black Panther. So you're contradicting yourself a bit.)

The battle as I see it can consist of one large battle or many smaller skirmishes. Each of my team members are capable guerrilla fighters and are highly mobile as it is. They are all survivalists and can survive in the wilderness indefinitely. While you did mention that Black Panther did fight for 16 hours straight (an impressive feat), I wonder how well he would be after several days. Not to mention, Peter hasn't shown any remarkable survivalist skills, so I doubt he will last very long in the wild. My team could easily do hits and runs, using Nick Fury's guns (he has multiple of them), or even drive your team paranoid through pheromone usage (Daken's pheromones can manipulate people's emotions, as well as their perception). In your response, you stated that Spider-man won't be distracted, which I disagree with, because, given the situation, he will have a lot of things to worry about. Nick Fury would be firing his weapons trying to kill him, while pheromones are altering his state of mind and perception. He will be preoccupied with either helping Black Panther or trying to find Nick Fury (which would be difficult, since Fury is a stealth master and can make himself invisible for short periods of time).

Another important thing I want to mention is that Spider-man's own spider-sense can prove detrimental to himself, especially when it is constantly firing off, leaving Peter with the inability to distinguish where the threat is. For example, here is Spider-man being KO'ed by Wolverine, because his spider-sense was on overdrive, effectively messing with his concentration and awareness.

Next thing you mentioned was how Peter mastered Shang-Chi's fighting style, which is false. Spider-man's particular fighting style is a unique one that Shang-Chi created specifically for Peter. Outside of what Shang Chi taught him, Peter has no other martial arts knowledge. I also found it misleading when you said that Spider-man could beat Shang-Chi. While, Spider-man would definitely win, it is due to stats, and it has nothing to do with his fighting skills. It would be like me claiming that the Hulk is a martial arts master because he has beaten Wolverine. I will also take this time to answer your question regarding Wolverine's fighting skills. He has indeed mastered every martial arts style on Earth. He is rated a 7 in fighting skills in the Marvel Handbook. So, it's not bad considering who Daken has lost to (and also beaten).

Since my post is extremely long, I will finish this debate by summarizing my points:

1) Daken's pheromones are very potent. While Spider-man does have his spider-sense to offset this, it won't help Black Panther. His will be off his game and won't last long versus Daken and X-23.

2) While Spider-man has my team trumped in physical stats, my team has superior tactical, survivalist, stealth, and combat experience.

3) Daken and Laura's enhanced senses will let us know exactly who we are fighting, while your team would require visuals.

4) My team doesn't need to win in an all-out battle. Rather, we can easily drag this out and make this a war of attrition, where my team would succeed due to healing factor.

5) Nick Fury, though forgotten, packs a lot of firepower and can provide cover fire for Daken and Laura. His large amount of gadgets makes him extremely versatile.

6) While Black Panther has the capabilities to KO Laura, he will have a difficult time doing it, especially when his vision is being screwed with via pheromones. Also, the knock out is only temporary and Laura can heal back up very quickly (superior healing factor when compared to Wolverine's).

7) Muramasa Blade can turn any wound into a mortal one. Risk of bleed out and infection are high, since the Muramasa Blade greatly reduces one's ability to heal.

8) Daken's disappearing trick would work on Black Panther, like it did on Wolverine and Deadpool. Both of whom, who have reflexes comparable to Black Panther's.

#25 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

Er, would you guys like to know that's it's not what you stab vibranium with, but how to stab it that will determine if the weave will be broken?

You cut in direction of the grain. Though, in all honestly, I have yet to see anyone do anything particular to cut through his vibranium mesh suit. Sabertooth had no problem cutting Black Panther last time they fought.

#26 Posted by Wolverine08 (26248 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Yeah, no matter the substance, just thrusting a pointed object into the suit won't accomplish anything since the vibranium suit absorbs momentum. Killomonger did so, and his massive knife just broke against the suit with his forward thrust. Sabretooth's claws slash things, so they were particularly suited to breaking the weave.

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#27 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

Lucky Daken and X-23 love slashing things :)

Also, they can still stab him the eye :P

#28 Posted by Wolverine08 (26248 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Not sure they could stab him in the eye. Bullets have had their momentum stopped as they came towards his face. T'Challa's head is covered in vibranium as well :)

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#29 Edited by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: I'm curious at how Spider-man would know that he's fighting X-23 or Daken. The 15 mins of prep doesn't give you info of the opposing team. Neither does the op stipulate that you have prior knowledge. So, I find it unlikely that Spider-man would somehow know that he's facing Wolverine's spawns.

Maybe he won't know that he's facing either of them, but he does know he's in a battle. He's there in the arena for a reason. As soon as he feels the effect of the pheromones, he'll know he would need to rely on his spider-sense for the rest of the battle. I know there are other people who use pheromones, but that doesn't matter, since it's only one way to deal with them.

For the actual fight, you stated that you would X-23 face Black Panther and Daken face Spider-man. Well, I don't see how that is possible. It's not a closed arena where you get to choose who you engage, but rather it is fluid dynamic battle, where we are all facing each other. I have already stated that Daken and X-23 are going to bull rush Black Panther. Nick Fury, in the mean time, will be laying cover fire from a discreet location (more on him later).

Of course it's not a closed arena, but Spider-Man knows that his friend has no way to counter the pheromones, so he'll try to engage Daken in particular, while Black Panther tries to hold off X-23.

The anti-metal claws are another iffy point. The problem with the scans you posted is that the anti-metal that was used to defeat Ultron was substantially larger than the pieces that compromise Black Panther's claws. The more of it you have, the stronger the effect. For example, in the scans you posted, the anti-metal's effect was able to melt all the metal in the vicinity, and not just Ultron. This is also mentioned in another story where if the Vibranium mound in Wakanda was turned into anti-metal, its effect would be continental. Lastly, if the anti-metal claws in Black Panther's suit was as powerful as the chunk that defeated Ultron, then its effects would prove detrimental to T'Challa's own vibranium armor. Also, if Black Panther's anti-metal claws were anywhere near the strength of the one that defeated Ultron, he could have used his claws to penetrate him (which never happened). So, it''s likely, from what we have seen, that Black Panther's anti-metal claws are not as potent as it can be. While it can rend through most metals, I doubt its ability to rend through vibranium or adamantium (unless you have scans to prove otherwise). Even if Black Panther's claws could cut Laura's adamantium claws, it wouldn't stop her from attacking. Underneath her adamantium claws are bone claws, just like Wolverine and Daken. Their bone claws are hard enough to cut through most metals and even hurt the Hulk (bone claw Wolverine and Daken have all hurt Hulk-level people with their bone claws, so it's not a stretch to assume X-23 can do the same thing, given that she's a clone of Wolverine). I also question how easily Black Panther could cut her adamantium claws. Her claws are longer than his, and in order to catch her blade, he must time his attacks perfectly. While not impossible for Black Panther, it would involve utmost precision and accuracy. These will be hampered by the pheromones that Daken releases, which would mess with his vision and depth-perception. The claws in her foot could also prove very detrimental for him as X-23 is deadly efficient in using them. While it's not wrong to compare X-23 to Wolverine, their fighting styles are inherently different. Wolverine, by nature, is a brawler, while X-23 is much more methodical and technical. Her moves are streamlined compared to his and every blows of hers are meant to kill.

Fair enough, I figured that the Anti-Metal claws wouldn't be that efficient against something such as claws. Still, Black Panther has something else that he can rely on: Skill. Well, skill and tech. His dual energy daggers will still be useful in the fight, even if X-23 gets to trade a hit with him. Now, I am aware of her healing factor and how it's better than Wolverine's. On the other hand, skill-wise, T'Challa has many more years of experience and has also beaten Wolverine before, not to mention getting the upper hand against the likes of a bloodlusted Iron Fist even when he didn't want to hurt him, Captain America in a sparring match and others. Now, Panther doesn't need to necessarily stab X-23 in the head. By putting it on the highest setting, it slices through metal like it's butter. He can just slice it through Laura's head when he gets the opportunity to do so and even deaden her nerves, like he did to a Skrull before.

X-23 won't be hitting Panther before he does so, because, not only his skill is superior, but he can also dodge any of her slashes. Stabs would be significantly harder to dodge, but they wouldn't break the suit. Not to mention that his enhanced reflexes are enough to have him avoid getting hit.

Scan 1: As already shown, his reflexes are quick enough to notice Sue returning to her non-invisible form and to jump inside her force field.

Scans 2-3: Vlad the Impaler comments on BP's reflexes at the time he wasn't enhanced.

Scans 4-6: Dodges point blank bullets.

Scan 7: More bullet dodging

Laura really is a formidable opponent, but if Black Panther, without holding back, has the skill and tech to overpower her. Watch how easily he moves throughout this fight, at the very start of Hudlin's run against his enhanced uncle, who was Black Panther at the time:

Your interpretation of how Spider-man is going to take down Daken is also problematic. Daken won't be fighting Peter, instead he will be with Laura attacking Black Panther. Peter Parker will of course help, but will be barraged by gunfire from Nick Fury, who will be attacking from a distance. Peter can either risk getting shot and help T'Challa or go after Nick Fury. If he does the latter, T'Challa won't stand a chance versus both Daken and X-23, while pheromones are affecting his fighting capabilities.

Nice, I was really wondering how you were going to use Nick Fury here. However, does he have the accuracy feats to prove that he can tag Spider-Man in a rainforest? He'll be surrounded by trees, shooting a man who's effortlessly dodged gunfire before won't be that easy, especially in this scenario. His hand to hand abilities are irrelevant here, he hasn't a chance against Spider-Man, who won't be holding back.

While I don't expect Nick Fury to win versus Spider-man (or survive for that matter), he can definitely stall for a bit. If you decide not to go after Nick Fury, his gadgets would prove invaluable in this match-up. For example, he can use his magnetic watch to mess with Black Panther's vibranium suit and use his explosives to cause chaos.

How is he going to mess with his suit from a distance with a watch? And his explosives will only bring down trees, making it harder for either Daken or X-23 surrounding my team, since they will have much more space then to move around.

Now back onto to the debate, the next thing I want to talk about is your claim that Spider-man's spider-sense would allow him to know where my team is. First off, Spider-man's spider-sense is purely reactive. It does not actively locate people, rather it tells Spider-man of impending danger and the location which it is coming from. Nor does Peter's spider-sense tell him who he is fighting. It is by no means an active radar like Daredevil's. By the time Spider-man's spider-sense kicks in, my team's plan will be set into motion. So, while I don't necessary get the drop on your team, I will be the one to instigate the fight. During the 15 mins prep, my team will deduce several strategies to fight a whole array of enemies. This is not unreasonable, given that I have three highly tactical people, all of whom that have years of combat experience. Nick Fury is by far the most paranoid person on Earth and has contingency plans set up for nearly every scenario.

I never said he would know who he would be fighting, just that, like you said, he'd know where the danger would be coming from. Even if they can't see your team coming from miles away, he would still be able to sense the presence of a sniper (Nick Fury) from afar and he can still sense Daken and X-23 before they are attacked. In actuality, he'll know he'll need to be aware as soon as he feels the pheromones kicking in.

By the way, he will be staying in high ground, just as long as he can stay in communication range of T'Challa.

The battle as I see it can consist of one large battle or many smaller skirmishes. Each of my team members are capable guerrilla fighters and are highly mobile as it is. They are all survivalists and can survive in the wilderness indefinitely. While you did mention that Black Panther did fight for 16 hours straight (an impressive feat), I wonder how well he would be after several days. Not to mention, Peter hasn't shown any remarkable survivalist skills, so I doubt he will last very long in the wild. My team could easily do hits and runs, using Nick Fury's guns (he has multiple of them), or even drive your team paranoid through pheromone usage (Daken's pheromones can manipulate people's emotions, as well as their perception). In your response, you stated that Spider-man won't be distracted, which I disagree with, because, given the situation, he will have a lot of things to worry about. Nick Fury would be firing his weapons trying to kill him, while pheromones are altering his state of mind and perception. He will be preoccupied with either helping Black Panther or trying to find Nick Fury (which would be difficult, since Fury is a stealth master and can make himself invisible for short periods of time).

They won't be hitting Spider-Man and then fleeing from him. He'll see them coming and is faster than both of them, meaning that he can tag them both. And, while Fury can stall the fight a bit, the outcome of Daken and Peter's fight won't change. As long as he keeps moving in good speeds, he can avoid getting shot. Another possibility is, since Nick Fury will be staying back and the others will begin their hunt, Spider-Man will sense a sniper before Daken and X-23 arrive. That way, he'll be able to cover himself in his webbing, which has already deflected bullets before. He'll look ridiculous, there's no doubt about that, but it's still efficient.

Next thing you mentioned was how Peter mastered Shang-Chi's fighting style, which is false. Spider-man's particular fighting style is a unique one that Shang-Chi created specifically for Peter. Outside of what Shang Chi taught him, Peter has no other martial arts knowledge. I also found it misleading when you said that Spider-man could beat Shang-Chi. While, Spider-man would definitely win, it is due to stats, and it has nothing to do with his fighting skills. It would be like me claiming that the Hulk is a martial arts master because he has beaten Wolverine. I will also take this time to answer your question regarding Wolverine's fighting skills. He has indeed mastered every martial arts style on Earth. He is rated a 7 in fighting skills in the Marvel Handbook. So, it's not bad considering who Daken has lost to (and also beaten).

Getting a good rating in the Marvel Handbook is fairly different than having it stated that you know every martial art on Earth, but this debate isn't about him. Daken is actually fairly different than his father. Logan is extremely more skilled than him, having many feats to back up that statement. What makes Daken so unique are his pheromones, which won't be affecting Spider-Man as much as it would other characters. And I didn't say that he mastered Shang-Chi's fighting style, I said it was a modified version of his fighting style, created specifically for Peter. He's still no Wolverine in martial arts, sure, but he's tough to take down with some good fighting skills, highly impressive physicals and his spider-sense. He's already taken down Daken when he was caught by surprise, didn't know how to deal with his pheromones and still had his moral code. Here, it'll be entirely the opposite.

1) Daken's pheromones are very potent. While Spider-man does have his spider-sense to offset this, it won't help Black Panther. His will be off his game and won't last long versus Daken and X-23.

True, but Spider-Man will try getting Daken as far from Panther as possible, that way he won't be affected by pheromones. With his strength, he simply hold Daken by the arm and throw him miles away. It won't hurt him, but it'll separate him from Laura and T'Challa.

2) While Spider-man has my team trumped in physical stats, my team has superior tactical, survivalist, stealth, and combat experience.

Survivalist and stealth couldn't be righter, but T'Challa is also a tactical genius, with many more years of experience than both Daken and Laura to compensate. As for combat experience, Spider-Man has the spider-sense and, like you said, much better physicals to also compensate for his slightly inferior martial art skills.

3) Daken and Laura's enhanced senses will let us know exactly who we are fighting, while your team would require visuals.

Like I said, as soon as Daken's pheromones start off, Spider-Man will know he's dealing with someone who can mess with his senses (not spider-sense) and he already has a way to deal with that.

4) My team doesn't need to win in an all-out battle. Rather, we can easily drag this out and make this a war of attrition, where my team would succeed due to healing factor.

Daken can be KO'd like he's already been by Spider-Man himself before. Laura is a little more complicated, because of her healing factor, but Panther has better fighting skills than her and can slice off half her head with his energy daggers, since he has no morals here.

5) Nick Fury, though forgotten, packs a lot of firepower and can provide cover fire for Daken and Laura. His large amount of gadgets makes him extremely versatile.

The Vibranium Suit is bulletproof and Spider-Man will sense Fury before he has the chance to shoot him, meaning that he'll be able to cover himself in his webbing.

7) Muramasa Blade can turn any wound into a mortal one. Risk of bleed out and infection are high, since the Muramasa Blade greatly reduces one's ability to heal.

Yes, the Muramasa Blade will be an issue for Spider-Man, but I don't think Daken edges Peter out in martial arts like Laura does. Not to mention that Spider-Man is faster and more agile, he'll be the one to get the first blows and from there he won't stop until Daken's KO'd.

#30 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Is there anything else you'd like to add or do you wanna close it down for votes?

#31 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries:

Maybe he won't know that he's facing either of them, but he does know he's in a battle. He's there in the arena for a reason. As soon as he feels the effect of the pheromones, he'll know he would need to rely on his spider-sense for the rest of the battle. I know there are other people who use pheromones, but that doesn't matter, since it's only one way to deal with them. Of course it's not a closed arena, but Spider-Man knows that his friend has no way to counter the pheromones, so he'll try to engage Daken in particular, while Black Panther tries to hold off X-23.

I'm still not seeing how Spider-man is going to fight Daken, when he has Nick Fury breathing down his neck. While Spider-man can easily dodge bullets, his time will be preoccupied doing that and not fighting Daken, unless you're suggesting that he is fully capable of fighting both Daken and evade gunfire at the same time from Fury.

Fair enough, I figured that the Anti-Metal claws wouldn't be that efficient against something such as claws. Still, Black Panther has something else that he can rely on: Skill. Well, skill and tech. His dual energy daggers will still be useful in the fight, even if X-23 gets to trade a hit with him. Now, I am aware of her healing factor and how it's better than Wolverine's. On the other hand, skill-wise, T'Challa has many more years of experience and has also beaten Wolverine before, not to mention getting the upper hand against the likes of a bloodlusted Iron Fist even when he didn't want to hurt him, Captain America in a sparring match and others. Now, Panther doesn't need to necessarily stab X-23 in the head. By putting it on the highest setting, it slices through metal like it's butter. He can just slice it through Laura's head when he gets the opportunity to do so and even deaden her nerves, like he did to a Skrull before.

X-23 won't be hitting Panther before he does so, because, not only his skill is superior, but he can also dodge any of her slashes. Stabs would be significantly harder to dodge, but they wouldn't break the suit. Not to mention that his enhanced reflexes are enough to have him avoid getting hit.

Laura really is a formidable opponent, but if Black Panther, without holding back, has the skill and tech to overpower her.

Black Panther does have the skills to beat X-23 - in a fair fight. But given the parameters of this specific battle, he is not fighting under optimal conditions. His is basically drugged and fighting two opponents at once. While I think Black Panther is a very impressive hand to hand combatant, I will find it impossible in this situation for him to reasonably win. You say that Black Panther has beaten Wolverine, but I don't believe T'Challa has actually beaten Logan in a fight. They have never actually legitimately fought as far as I recalled, they both have tangoed with each other, but those fights were inconclusive. Beating Iron Fist is all and nice, but he was possessed and wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities. Black Panther's armor was also a major factor into how he won his battle versus Iron Fist. While Black Panther's energy daggers are formidable and can incapacitate Laura or Daken, I don't think he would manage to do any significant damage before being taken down. With his perception being dulled, he is going to have a very difficult time defending himself, let alone mustering any counter offensive. Likewise, I don't see how he would deaden anyone's nerves, given that my team has a healing factor. They would just regrow whatever nerves are destroyed.

Nice, I was really wondering how you were going to use Nick Fury here. However, does he have the accuracy feats to prove that he can tag Spider-Man in a rainforest? He'll be surrounded by trees, shooting a man who's effortlessly dodged gunfire before won't be that easy, especially in this scenario. His hand to hand abilities are irrelevant here, he hasn't a chance against Spider-Man, who won't be holding back.

I don't expect Nick Fury to hit Spider-man, but cover fire is still invaluable in this fight. Nick Fury can lay down fire from a distance, forcing Spider-man's attention somewhere else. With his spider-sense overreacting from all the external stimuli, there is a chance Daken can stab him (since he has already tagged Spider-man before). I don't doubt Nick Fury's ability to shoot through a forest, especially considering that he has the tools to be on the high ground. So he will be basically looking down on everyone. He has the tech to compensate for his lack of physical stats and isn't bad with a gun by any means.

For one, he can use his x-ray goggles to locate your team. This can also aid him in firing through a wooded forest.

He can scale trees with his grappling hooks and actually has a built in gliding device.

How is he going to mess with his suit from a distance with a watch? And his explosives will only bring down trees, making it harder for either Daken or X-23 surrounding my team, since they will have much more space then to move around.

I was merely using the watch as an example of what he can do. With all the gadgets that Fury has at his disposal, he can do a wide variety of things. For one, explosives can help create controlled chaos and allow my team a chance to attack yours, while they are disorientated. Taking down trees will actually help me more than it will help you. Without trees to use, Spider-man will be stuck in an open arena, making it harder for him to dodge, since he won't be able to retreat into the trees.

I never said he would know who he would be fighting, just that, like you said, he'd know where the danger would be coming from. Even if they can't see your team coming from miles away, he would still be able to sense the presence of a sniper (Nick Fury) from afar and he can still sense Daken and X-23 before they are attacked. In actuality, he'll know he'll need to be aware as soon as he feels the pheromones kicking in.

I don't see what danger he is going to sense, if there is no imminent threat to his life. Nick Fury won't start shooting until everyone is in position. So Spider-man's spider sense won't tell him anything, until the battle actually starts. Also, I still don't see how he would be aware he is fighting Daken. Parker has no way of differentiating pheromones from any other poison or drug that may cause vision distortion. So it's fallacious to assume that Spider-man would know he's fighting Daken or even know he's being affected by pheromones.

By the way, he will be staying in high ground, just as long as he can stay in communication range of T'Challa.

I'm not particularly understanding you. Earlier you said that Parker is going to be crawling along the trunk of the trees in order to stay in speaking distance of each other. Now you're saying that he's taking the high ground?

They won't be hitting Spider-Man and then fleeing from him. He'll see them coming and is faster than both of them, meaning that he can tag them both. And, while Fury can stall the fight a bit, the outcome of Daken and Peter's fight won't change. As long as he keeps moving in good speeds, he can avoid getting shot. Another possibility is, since Nick Fury will be staying back and the others will begin their hunt, Spider-Man will sense a sniper before Daken and X-23 arrive. That way, he'll be able to cover himself in his webbing, which has already deflected bullets before. He'll look ridiculous, there's no doubt about that, but it's still efficient.

The problem with this is that Spider-man won't be able to tag people when his vision is being distorted. I think it's kind of silly to think that Spider-man could tag both of them, while being impeded himself. He already had a hard time tagging Daken in their fight. As for the rest of your statement, I already answered them above. Spider-man won't know about Nick Fury because Nick Fury won't be trying to shoot him until everyone is in position. So there would be no danger for his spider-sense to warn him about. Also, I find covering himself in webbing to be completely silly. That would do nothing but impede his own movements and give him a false sense of security. Nick Fury carries guns that can blow a hole in a battleship.

Daken is actually fairly different than his father. Logan is extremely more skilled than him, having many feats to back up that statement. What makes Daken so unique are his pheromones, which won't be affecting Spider-Man as much as it would other characters. And I didn't say that he mastered Shang-Chi's fighting style, I said it was a modified version of his fighting style, created specifically for Peter. He's still no Wolverine in martial arts, sure, but he's tough to take down with some good fighting skills, highly impressive physicals and his spider-sense. He's already taken down Daken when he was caught by surprise, didn't know how to deal with his pheromones and still had his moral code. Here, it'll be entirely the opposite.

I have already shown you that Daken is fully capable of tagging Wolverine with his disappearing act. There is no doubt that Wolverine is better skilled than Daken (I already stated this twice), but that point is irrelevant because he's still better than Spider-man when it comes to fighting skills, and is good enough to give Black Panther a fight, especially with pheromones. Spider-man's crash course in martial arts will do absolute nothing in this match-up, because what he has been taught won't work vs Lauren or Daken. Pressure points won't work on them and his training is not sufficient to be a threat to Laura or Daken. Spider-man's only saving grace is his spider-sense. Also, you're misinterpreting the fight between Daken and Spider-man. They were both holding back and Spider-man won because Daken wasn't trying to kill him. Daken tagged him twice before Spider-man managed to KO him and both times were non-lethal. The difference in their encounter now is that in addition to fighting Daken, he will be constantly shot at by Nick Fury.

If Parker decides not to engage Nick Fury, it allows Fury the opportunity to come in close and use some of his more deadly gadgets, like his hallucination cube. With his equipment, he would be able to engage Black Panther in physical combat as well.

Here is his fight with Wolverine. He does lose in the end, but he puts up one hell of a fight. Pay particular attention to all the tech that he pulls out during the battle to compensate for Wolverine's superior stats. He will be using all of these once he gets in close.

Tech includes steel restraining cable, dazing gas, and a bio-electric zapper.

True, but Spider-Man will try getting Daken as far from Panther as possible, that way he won't be affected by pheromones. With his strength, he simply hold Daken by the arm and throw him miles away. It won't hurt him, but it'll separate him from Laura and T'Challa.

I have never seen Spider-man toss anything miles away (he's strong, but not that strong). I also question how easily he could accomplish this feat, given that trying to hold Daken by the arm is pretty much a silly idea. Parker has a better chance of punching him away, then trying to toss him. With the pheromones affecting his perception, he's going to have trouble getting his hands on Daken.

Survivalist and stealth couldn't be righter, but T'Challa is also a tactical genius, with many more years of experience than both Daken and Laura to compensate. As for combat experience, Spider-Man has the spider-sense and, like you said, much better physicals to also compensate for his slightly inferior martial art skills.

Nick Fury actually trumps T'Challa in the tactical knowledge, given that he has about several decades more experience than him. As for Spider-man having slightly inferior martial arts skill, that is not true. His fighting skills are not slightly inferior, his fighting skills are highly inferior. His way of the spider doesn't compensate for the decades that my team has in fighting skills.

Daken can be KO'd like he's already been by Spider-Man himself before.

And Spider-man has shown being tagged by Daken. The question is will Daken gut Spider-man before he can KO him. Looking at their previous encounter, Daken had more hits in before being KO'ed. But instead of just punching Peter, Daken will use his claws.

Laura is a little more complicated, because of her healing factor, but Panther has better fighting skills than her and can slice off half her head with his energy daggers, since he has no morals here.

Except that you're ignoring other factors in this battle.

Yes, the Muramasa Blade will be an issue for Spider-Man, but I don't think Daken edges Peter out in martial arts like Laura does. Not to mention that Spider-Man is faster and more agile, he'll be the one to get the first blows and from there he won't stop until Daken's KO'd.

Daken is exceptionally more skilled than Peter is. It's not even close. Spider-man is indeed faster and more agile, but that doesn't stop him from getting hit either. Also, your completely ignoring Nick Fury. With bullets raining down from above, Peter would risk being shot, if he tries to remain stationary to pummel Daken.

Conclusion

  • While your team does edge out mines when it comes to physical stats, because of Spider-man. His increased stats won't offset the skill difference between our teams.
  • My team's enhanced senses and tech would locate your team first and allow us time to come up with a plan. From there, our stealth capabilities will help us instigate the battle.
  • Your answer to the pheromones is lack luster, Spider-man wouldn't know of Daken until they actually fight and by that time the pheromones would be in the air affecting your team.
  • Spider-man and Black Panther will be fighting at a disadvantage because of the pheromones.
  • Trying to separate my team will prove ineffective, because I have Nick Fury, who is armed to the teeth with numerous firearms and tech. This gives us a range advantage as well.
  • Two of my team members have healing factors that would allow them to shrug off fatal damage, the same cannot be said for yours.
  • The Muramasa blade can effectively turn any wound into a lethal one, due to its unique ability to negate healing.
  • Our team are survivalists in every sense of the word and could easily resort to guerrilla warfare if necessary.

#32 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6083 posts) - - Show Bio

Is there anything else you'd like to add or do you wanna close it down for votes?

I just placed my rebuttal and conclusion. So you can do the same, then we can open it up to votes.

#33 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries said:

Is there anything else you'd like to add or do you wanna close it down for votes?

I just placed my rebuttal and conclusion. So you can do the same, then we can open it up to votes.

Sure, let me just read through your post.

#34 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: I'm still not seeing how Spider-man is going to fight Daken, when he has Nick Fury breathing down his neck. While Spider-man can easily dodge bullets, his time will be preoccupied doing that and not fighting Daken, unless you're suggesting that he is fully capable of fighting both Daken and evade gunfire at the same time from Fury.

You said covering himself in webbing is silly. And I agree, it does sound silly, but it works nevertheless. Spider-Man isn't stupid, he knows his opponents and if anyone knows about his webbing... well, it's him. He knows that he will have a much harder time by just dodging. It's possible, but it'll make things more difficult, so there's nothing stopping him from doing it.

Black Panther does have the skills to beat X-23 - in a fair fight. But given the parameters of this specific battle, he is not fighting under optimal conditions. His is basically drugged and fighting two opponents at once. While I think Black Panther is a very impressive hand to hand combatant, I will find it impossible in this situation for him to reasonably win. You say that Black Panther has beaten Wolverine, but I don't believe T'Challa has actually beaten Logan in a fight. They have never actually legitimately fought as far as I recalled, they both have tangoed with each other, but those fights were inconclusive. Beating Iron Fist is all and nice, but he was possessed and wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities. Black Panther's armor was also a major factor into how he won his battle versus Iron Fist. While Black Panther's energy daggers are formidable and can incapacitate Laura or Daken, I don't think he would manage to do any significant damage before being taken down. With his perception being dulled, he is going to have a very difficult time defending himself, let alone mustering any counter offensive. Likewise, I don't see how he would deaden anyone's nerves, given that my team has a healing factor. They would just regrow whatever nerves are destroyed.

He has the feats that prove that he can do it. Not to mention that, quite recently, T'Challa has said that Wolverine can't beat him, because the way he plays his game is by relying on his healing factor, thus he couldn't win, but I think Cornell's been doing some stuff to him recently. Regardless, this isn't about Logan. Like I said, Spider-Man will try to get Daken as far away as possible from his teammate and, given that this is a morals off encounter and he's much stronger than any of your team members, he won't be holding back and can just as easily throw Daken a mile away. I've already mentioned this, he won't be injured, not one bit, but he's doing that for the sake of Black Panther. T'Challa can hold off X-23 until Peter accomplishes that, given that it'll be the first thing he does, since he knows that Panther obviously doesn't have a spider-sense (or should I say panther-sense) that he can rely on.

I don't expect Nick Fury to hit Spider-man, but cover fire is still invaluable in this fight. Nick Fury can lay down fire from a distance, forcing Spider-man's attention somewhere else. With his spider-sense overreacting from all the external stimuli, there is a chance Daken can stab him (since he has already tagged Spider-man before). I don't doubt Nick Fury's ability to shoot through a forest, especially considering that he has the tools to be on the high ground. So he will be basically looking down on everyone. He has the tech to compensate for his lack of physical stats and isn't bad with a gun by any means.

He sure isn't. However, there isn't really any high ground at their location if you take a good look, except for the trees that really are quite huge. I don't see how he'll climb trees as big as those with a bunch of heavy tech and guns on his back. Daken can probably tag Spider-Man, but, given that Spidey's faster by a long shot, he'll be handing out the first blows and could even blitz Daken, since he's already done so with Tarantula, The Absorbing Man, various thugs like he does all the time and... wait for it... wait for it... Firelord! Just kidding, but he's relied on blitzing quite a few times and this time he won't be afraid to go all out. He can and will put down Daken, since he's already done before.

For one, he can use his x-ray goggles to locate your team. This can also aid him in firing through a wooded forest.

Him locating my team will only make Spider-Man's spider-sense trigger, meaning that he will be wearing his "armor", even if it sounds silly or create a large webbing shield around him and T'Challa.

He can scale trees with his grappling hooks and actually has a built in gliding device.

Oh, now that makes more sense.

I was merely using the watch as an example of what he can do. With all the gadgets that Fury has at his disposal, he can do a wide variety of things. For one, explosives can help create controlled chaos and allow my team a chance to attack yours, while they are disorientated. Taking down trees will actually help me more than it will help you. Without trees to use, Spider-man will be stuck in an open arena, making it harder for him to dodge, since he won't be able to retreat into the trees.

He can't take down a whole forest though. Even if he does, in the end, his tree will still be up and Spider-Man can use that, not only to retreat, but also to take Fury down if needed. And our teams will be fighting separately, but still, Spider-Man can sense any explosives thrown in his direction and easily dodge them. He'll be smart enough not to send them back, because he knows it'll leave him open for Daken to attack. As for Black Panther, his Vibranium Suit can easily tank explosions, like it does to energy blasts or blunt forces. Even if he's staggered, so will be Laura.

Keep in mind that Panther also has a way to retreat if he needs to catch his breath. He probably won't need to, but it's still worth mentioning. He's more skilled than X-23 and will be able to slice her head in half with his energy daggers, but he can also rely on his vibranium soles to scale up trees if needed.

Scan:

I don't see what danger he is going to sense, if there is no imminent threat to his life. Nick Fury won't start shooting until everyone is in position. So Spider-man's spider sense won't tell him anything, until the battle actually starts. Also, I still don't see how he would be aware he is fighting Daken. Parker has no way of differentiating pheromones from any other poison or drug that may cause vision distortion. So it's fallacious to assume that Spider-man would know he's fighting Daken or even know he's being affected by pheromones.

There doesn't need to be any imminent threat. His spider-sense warns him if he's being watched or something of the kind. It's done so way too many times. Here are a few basic feats of what the spider-sense can do:

Scan 1: His spider-sense warns him of thugs that pose no threat to him by any means.

Scan 2: Spider-sense warns him of danger that is very far away from his location.

Scan 3-4: “It reacts into any form of danger or menace”.

Scan 5: Spider-Man dodges Electro’s blasts with his back turned effortlessly, which are faster than bullets.

Also, as a reply to your last statement: It doesn't really matter if it's some sort of poison or pheromones, he would have the same reaction. He would always rely on his spider-sense for means of precaution or simply trying to see properly the environment around him.

I'm not particularly understanding you. Earlier you said that Parker is going to be crawling along the trunk of the trees in order to stay in speaking distance of each other. Now you're saying that he's taking the high ground?

Sorry if I sounded confusing. When I said high ground, I did mean the trunk of the trees.

The problem with this is that Spider-man won't be able to tag people when his vision is being distorted. I think it's kind of silly to think that Spider-man could tag both of them, while being impeded himself. He already had a hard time tagging Daken in their fight. As for the rest of your statement, I already answered them above. Spider-man won't know about Nick Fury because Nick Fury won't be trying to shoot him until everyone is in position. So there would be no danger for his spider-sense to warn him about. Also, I find covering himself in webbing to be completely silly. That would do nothing but impede his own movements and give him a false sense of security. Nick Fury carries guns that can blow a hole in a battleship.

But his vision won't be distorted. That's what pheromones would normally do, but Spider-Man's already shown that he can see just as well by relying on his spider-sense.

His spider-sense still warns him of a sniper, even if he isn't going to take the shot.

And that's most likely a hyperbole, since not even a bazooka would blow an entire hole through a battleship. Besides, if he stays in high, distant ground, he'll probably need a sniper rifle instead, which Spider-Man's webbing can easily hold off. And I don't see how the protective webbing would prevent him from moving around, it's just additional non-weighting armor basically.

Spider-man's crash course in martial arts will do absolute nothing in this match-up, because what he has been taught won't work vs Lauren or Daken. Pressure points won't work on them and his training is not sufficient to be a threat to Laura or Daken. Spider-man's only saving grace is his spider-sense. Also, you're misinterpreting the fight between Daken and Spider-man. They were both holding back and Spider-man won because Daken wasn't trying to kill him. Daken tagged him twice before Spider-man managed to KO him and both times were non-lethal. The difference in their encounter now is that in addition to fighting Daken, he will be constantly shot at by Nick Fury.

And the shots won't do much either. Besides the protective webbing, as long as he keeps moving, he won't need to be worrying about Nick Fury, since he can just as easily hit Daken accidentally. And, while I agree with you that Spider-Man only won that fight because Daken wasn't going for the kill, he was pretty much stomped when Peter got to know how to deal with his pheromones like he does know. Daken could've still tried to hold him off or put him down in a non-lethal way, but he was still incapable of doing so. And at the time, he had no knowledge of any martial arts. Currently, he's much more skilled and taking down Daken would be easier even he weren't holding back.

If Parker decides not to engage Nick Fury, it allows Fury the opportunity to come in close and use some of his more deadly gadgets, like his hallucination cube. With his equipment, he would be able to engage Black Panther in physical combat as well.

Here is his fight with Wolverine. He does lose in the end, but he puts up one hell of a fight. Pay particular attention to all the tech that he pulls out during the battle to compensate for Wolverine's superior stats. He will be using all of these once he gets in close.

If he so much as comes close to Spider-Man, he can have his jaw broken by a morals off Spidey. Black Panther has already broken Red Skull's jaw with a few punches to the face. Doing the same to Nick Fury will be no problem, considering that he's many, many times stronger than T'Challa. And if he decides to engage Black Panther, that will make Spider-Man's fight with Daken easier for him, meaning that he'll quickly have the chance to help T'Challa after beating Logan's son. T'Challa also won't be exactly bothered by Nick Fury. He doesn't have good enough reaction feats that prove that he could dodge an energy dagger coming his way, so him helping either one of his teammates would be actually helpful to me.

I have never seen Spider-man toss anything miles away (he's strong, but not that strong). I also question how easily he could accomplish this feat, given that trying to hold Daken by the arm is pretty much a silly idea. Parker has a better chance of punching him away, then trying to toss him. With the pheromones affecting his perception, he's going to have trouble getting his hands on Daken.

Eh, the "miles away" was just a hyperbole. Even around 100 meters would already be good enough to negate the pheromones's abilities. And it doesn't really matter how he throws him, as long as he does it.

Nick Fury actually trumps T'Challa in the tactical knowledge, given that he has about several decades more experience than him. As for Spider-man having slightly inferior martial arts skill, that is not true. His fighting skills are not slightly inferior, his fighting skills are highly inferior. His way of the spider doesn't compensate for the decades that my team has in fighting skills.

Okay, but let's not forget how Spider-Man, at least when he was a teenager, would pretty much patrol New York every day. Even when he felt sick, he still felt like he had the responsibility to defend his city from crime. During all those years, he fought people who had much better training than him, including Kraven the Hunter who had many, many years of experience from brawling against lions. After all, he was just a daddy's uncle's little boy before he was bitten. Over the years, he gained a lot of experience, especially when he learned the Way of the Spider. It wasn't a crash course. He already had some basic knowledge and was a pretty agile fighter before learning it. With the months of training everyday, he completely mastered Shang-Chi's alternate way of fighting. So, yeah, I still believe it's by a large margin, if that margin exists at all.

Verdict

  • Spider-Man can sense Nick Fury even if he isn't even ready to take the shot yet, so, though it may sound silly, covering himself in webbing is still an option. To be honest, I think I recall seeing him doing it before in older comics. He put his clothes on a fake mannequin and covered himself in webbing to protect himself from a bunch of armed thugs. I may be wrong though, it's been a while since my last classic Spider-Man comic.
  • Spider-Man can still see your team coming. Pheromones won't majorly affect him, so they won't be ambushed by any means.
  • He doesn't need to know it's Daken. As soon as he senses something messing with his perceptions, he'll know to rely on his spider-sense.
  • Spider-Man will be trying to engage Daken as far away from his teammate as possible, so Black Panther can have the chance to edge it out in a battle against X-23. He's got the skills and the tech to make up for Laura's healing factor.
  • I don't really see how Nick Fury will be preventing Spider-Man from separating your teammates from one another. He can just as easily deflect or dodge his bullets.
  • Daken's healing factor isn't of much relevance against Spider-Man. He won't be doing any fatal damage, but he'll be giving out his best punches in order to knock out Daken like he did in American Son (hate to keep referencing this lol).

Okay, voting is open I guess. Thanks for the awesome debate dude, I learned a lot and you have no idea how much you made me want to get a few Wolverine TPBs just so I can read more of your characters. Not Nick Fury though, not a big fan of that guy :p

@cdiddyman911

#35 Posted by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries @omgomgwtfwtf Wow, wow, wow, you guys are already done? Some people haven't even started lol! Anyways insanely great debate and tommorow I'll open it for voting! Until then I suppose you can have one final post each

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#36 Posted by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19489 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (2941 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries: honestly you won my vote here man. I usually always vote for OmgOmgWtfWtf, due to his insane debating skills and knowledge. However in this instance I feel that you really presented a solid case with good back ups. good job man,

Sorry OmgOmgWtfWtf.

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#41 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (2941 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: My opponent was OmgOmgWtfWtf haha. Anyway, thanks for the vote, bro :)

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Thanks :)

whoops, my bad.........multi tasking and made a boo boo. You still have my vote however. Interject 'OmgOmgWtfWtf' where I stated Cadence! lmfao....

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#43 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6345 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote on this tomorrow.

#44 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6345 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry I didn't get at this sooner my vote goes to @omgomgwtfwtf:

#46 Posted by AllStarSuperman (15627 posts) - - Show Bio
#47 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio
#48 Posted by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by cdiddyman911 (1299 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

GG, @omgomgwtfwtf! Thanks for the amazing debate. I'm heavily considering picking up some Wolverine trades after this.