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#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Faora, Zod, Superman

Phoenix, Magneto, Storm

Since MoS been so popular and unbeatable as characters, I thought they could match up then with X-men best Movie Mutants.

  • In Character.
  • Start 400 feet apart.
  • Random Encounter.
  • Battle in New York Shipping yard.

Who wins? Movie Mutants or Kryptonians?

#2 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6184 posts) - - Show Bio

Aliens stomp.

#3 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

A bit over a football field? The guy that was shown to blitz at over Mach 4 before he got serious and got way more powerful and faster when he was fighting Zod? They would only need to be able to go Mach 2 in order to get to them in less than a second.

Mach 4=4,466 feet per second. Battle starts 400 feet. They should be able to get there in 0.09 seconds. You can increase if you like for reaction time but that wont be much since they have already been shown to have an increased reaction time(e.g flying through building chasing Zod, catching someone by the neck going most likely over mach 1). So either way increasing it wouldn't make much of a difference. Their fastest flight speed was over 100.

Pheonix should be easily blitzed. Her fastest reaction towards something was plastic bullets which were moving at about 200 MPH and she reacted before they shot the bullets.

Magneto catches bullets I think but it still wouldn't be enough. Superman was able to fight the push from the gravity machine so I highly doubt he would be much trouble here. They should be able to fight off his powers if tehy get caught(Zod). I'm not sure about Faora since she isn't as powerful as Zod & Superman by the end of the movie.

Storm, what is she going to do again?

#4 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

A bit over a football field? The guy that was shown to blitz at over Mach 4 before he got serious and got way more powerful and faster when he was fighting Zod? They would only need to be able to go Mach 2 in order to get to them in less than a second.

Mach 4=4,466 feet per second. Battle starts 400 feet. They should be able to get there in 0.09 seconds. You can increase if you like for reaction time but that wont be much since they have already been shown to have an increased reaction time(e.g flying through building chasing Zod, catching someone by the neck going most likely over mach 1). So either way increasing it wouldn't make much of a difference. Their fastest flight speed was over 100.

Pheonix should be easily blitzed. Her fastest reaction towards something was plastic bullets which were moving at about 200 MPH and she reacted before they shot the bullets.

Magneto catches bullets I think but it still wouldn't be enough. Superman was able to fight the push from the gravity machine so I highly doubt he would be much trouble here. They should be able to fight off his powers if tehy get caught(Zod). I'm not sure about Faora since she isn't as powerful as Zod & Superman by the end of the movie.

Storm, what is she going to do again?

Actaully in the fight scenes the Kryptonians in character waltz around before attacking, usally soaking any range damage to show off their durability. Magneto needs only a second to manipulate the Suits..... Phoenix needs 1/4th a second to do something.

Just saying... everyone is in character.

Also Mach 4 charges is BS. The Kryptonians in the movie did less than Mach 1 charging as you can see them frame by movie frame when the blur. Lets not say mach 4, it took Superman a few second to hit Mach 4-5, seconds to break each sound barrier >_>

#5 Edited by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Are you talking about when he was first flying? Look at him when he was at the end of the movie. He was able to fly from space to Earth in a few seconds putting him at over Mach 100.

They completely blew out those Jets and saying Mach 4 would be a lowball.

Only Faora has done that. Superman and Zod gets straight to the point. All it takes is literally one hit and the fight is over.

Magneto is only going to be able to manipulate Faora but what is he really going to do? He can't hurt her. I don't see how their going to do any of this to Superman. Superman should feel the TK and once he does its an instant blitz. Pheoniz hasn't shown the TK feats to say that she can hold him back. And "in character" is dark eyes or regular eyes for her? Becuase I would assume "dark eyes" is out of character Pheonix so that would mean to atomiziation(not that it would be anyways since they can survive the re-entry of Earth easily, Hell I don't even think Superman vaporized a hair doing that. Plus the have armor to protect them.

#6 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32 said:

@cadencev2:

Are you talking about when he was first flying? Look at him when he was at the end of the movie. He was able to fly from space to Earth in a few seconds putting him at over Mach 100.

They completely blew out those Jets and saying Mach 4 would be a lowball.

Only Faora has done that. Superman and Zod gets straight to the point. All it takes is literally one hit and the fight is over.

Magneto is only going to be able to manipulate Faora but what is he really going to do? He can't hurt her. I don't see how their going to do any of this to Superman. Superman should feel the TK and once he does its an instant blitz. Pheoniz hasn't shown the TK feats to say that she can hold him back. And "in character" is dark eyes or regular eyes for her? Becuase I would assume "dark eyes" is out of character Pheonix so that would mean to atomiziation(not that it would be anyways since they can survive the re-entry of Earth easily, Hell I don't even think Superman vaporized a hair doing that. Plus the have armor to protect them.

OMG so much wrong here....

1) Travel speed =/= Combat Speed >_> why is this so hard for MoS fans to grasp? We understand this clearly in comic debates!

2) Holy Mother of God! The Fastest Jet in the world is below Mach 4. Most Fighter Jets are barely Mach 1 and they never fly in combat mode at Mach 1. I mean.... wow.

3) Superman just attacks with no morals? What movie did you watch? Zod goes all for the attack instead making long winded speeches and discarding his armor like a idiot? I must have seen a different movie :/

4) Ovee, Phoenix has held back a Dams on rush of water. She wrecked and levitated over 100+ tons of house. She then crushed and levitated everything on Ryker Island including the surrounding sea.

I think her TK can cause problems for Supes who had trouble fighting Zod and Faora who had way weaker strength. if that fails what TP feats do MoS crew have? she should get srewey in their heads for a advantage.

I mean do you guys intentionally over hype the MoS feats? Or simply have no clue? Mach 4 Jets?! Where do you guys get this fan wanking numbers?!

#7 Edited by Fallschirmjager (17605 posts) - - Show Bio

My response to one of the other x-men vs mos threads.

@fallschirmjager said:

All right. I want to settle Phoenix vs MOS debate once and for all.

The Human mind requires on average about .25 seconds to recognize a threat. IE. You're driving and you see the car in front of you slam on his brakes. Or in this case. Phoenix sees Man of Steel ,realizes's he a threat.

It then requires about another .25s to do something about it. IE: You then decide to slam on your brakes. Phoenix decides she is going to control his mind.

So...at MINIMUM under the assumption that Phoenix's ability triggers instantly she would need .50 seconds to mind-rape Man of Steel.

Now. Man of Steel is Kryptonian and given he is superior to us in every way (and since we have to make some assumptions to even have all of this)...lets assume he can think twice as fast as a human. So he needs .125 seconds to recognize the X-men as a threat and another .125s to decide what to do about it.

That means he has a .25 window for him to attack everyone.

Here is my calculation of Man of Steel Speed.

@fallschirmjager said:

5:08. Superman is temporarily taken aback in mid air. Zod tackles him and they go fying upwards. We later see them exchanging blows as they go higher, before stopping at the Wayne Satellite at 5:16.

They did start a few hundred feet from the ground, but that is negligible given the distance traveled. While they are fighting on the Satellite we can clearly see the Earth in the back ground, the Satellite is CLEARLY in Low-Earth Orbit.

Low Earth Orbit is a MAXIMUM of 1273 miles above the earth.

Now its hard to say exactly how high the how high the satellite is. Normally, satellites orbit at minimum of 200 miles above the earth and a maximum of about 1200 (in low earth orbit). Since we don't have an exact number, we'll just calculate both numbers and it will give us a range of speed.

200 miles in 8 seconds. or 25 miles per second. 1500 miles per minute. 90,000 miles per hour. Or Mach 117 (rounded down)

1200 miles in 8 seconds. or 150 miles per second. Or 9000 miles per minute. Or 540,000 miles per hour. Or Mach 703 (rounded down)

So there you have it. During his fight with Zod both Superman and Zod were flying anywhere from Mach 117 to Mach 703. Given that they were both doing this, it gives legitimacy to the speed feat.

Now I personally think its closer to 117 than it is 703 as I don't think they were quite 1200 miles above the earth. But I have no way of knowing. If the satellite is used by Wayne Enterprises its most probably for communications and thus probably lower...but if it was built by them and sold to someone else...it could be used for who knows what. Wayne Enterprises also has contracts with the military (in comics)...and if its in use by the military it could very well be 1200 miles above the earth, as some military satellites are.

I'm hoping they will tell us in MoS 2 what kind of satellite it was, as that would give us a far more accurate guess about the distance traveled.

1 mile per hour = 1.46666666666667 feet per second.

Man of Steels slowest speed was 90,000 miles per hour. That is 132,000 feet per second.

His fastest speed was 540,000 miles per hour. That is 792,000 feet per second.

132,000 x .25 = 33,000 feet.

792,000 x .25 = 198,000 feet.

So. Man of Steel, assuming he can think at least twice as fast as a human being, can travel anywhere from 33,000 to 198,000 feet in one-quarter of second. That is 6.25 to 37.5 miles.

Unless the two teams are starting farther away than that, I think Man of Steel can successfully blitz them without much trouble - and he has plenty of room to spare to be honest.

This is all assuming he can think twice as fast as human being. I don't think its an unreasonable assumption given Superman lore has displayed him having advanced thought processes

#8 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Edited by Fallschirmjager (17605 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by Deathstroke19 (3799 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by patrat18 (9791 posts) - - Show Bio

What a stomp.

#13 Posted by AllStarSuperman (21878 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Posted by Fallschirmjager (17605 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathstroke19 said:

@fallschirmjager: ugh... The Math is killing me lol.

this, fallschirmjager and his mathamatics!

<_<...its not that complicated.

all you have to know is distance traveled and the amount of time

#15 Posted by Deathstroke19 (3799 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: lol @fallschirmjager: trust me. To me its extremely complicated lol i suck at math. History, reading/English, and religion I'm good with but science, which almost always involves math (unless its like biology or life science) and math i just despise and suck at. Lol

#16 Posted by AllStarSuperman (21878 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman said:

@deathstroke19 said:

@fallschirmjager: ugh... The Math is killing me lol.

this, fallschirmjager and his mathamatics!

<_<...its not that complicated.

all you have to know is distance traveled and the amount of time

Only math I am good at is figuring out what my comic bill will be for the week, lol

#17 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

1) Travel speed =/= Combat Speed >_> why is this so hard for MoS fans to grasp? We understand this clearly in comic debates!

Again. What? I'm talking about blitz. Where do you seem me talking about punching and kicking? The only time I said that is when Faora caught Superman by the neck which would highlight her reaction time....to actually start a blitz.

2) Holy Mother of God! The Fastest Jet in the world is below Mach 4. Most Fighter Jets are barely Mach 1 and they never fly in combat mode at Mach 1. I mean.... wow.

......what? Wow. You clearly didn't read what I was saying. A-10s usually go around Mach 2 but I put it down to 1.5 because it was combat. Then I said the fact that Superman blew out teh jets like that he would have had to have been going over Mach 4...

3) Superman just attacks with no morals? What movie did you watch? Zod goes all for the attack instead making long winded speeches and discarding his armor like a idiot? I must have seen a different movie :/

Tell me what happened first. Zod and Superman fight then make speeches or they make speeches then fight?

  1. Please tell me what can he possibly say to three characters he doesn't know?
  2. Would it be much of a fight if they punch them just once? Becuase thats all it takes. One hit. I'm guessing they punch them then talk to their dead bodies right?

4) Ovee, Phoenix has held back a Dams on rush of water. She wrecked and levitated over 100+ tons of house. She then crushed and levitated everything on Ryker Island including the surrounding sea.

You can't even say how much she held back though. She only held back diverted a small fraction. Sorry not too impressive. Well the World Engine lifted more than 100+ tons and it had the force to destroy the buildings and Superman still fought it off while weakened. And Superman lifted over 100 tons in the beginning of the movie where he was weaker.

You mean a couple metals and some water? And destroying like one building from her atomization though she shouldn't even be using it in this battle making that feat irrelevant?

I think her TK can cause problems for Supes who had trouble fighting Zod and Faora who had way weaker strength. if that fails what TP feats do MoS crew have? she should get srewey in their heads for a advantage.

I mean do you guys intentionally over hype the MoS feats? Or simply have no clue? Mach 4 Jets?! Where do you guys get this fan wanking numbers?!

They have no TP feats of course. Martian Manhunter wasn't even introduced yet. But does Pheoniz use TP(offensively) during battle besides Xavier who she knew had TP and was assulted first? Does she have any TP feats besides "beating" Xavier?

I didn't over hype anything. I never said the Jet was Mach 10. Fan wanking? Oh.

#18 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: sorry, it read to me like Mach 4 jets and that made me flip a table.

#19 Posted by godzilla44 (3252 posts) - - Show Bio

I only have one word to say...................... are you ready are you sure .................get ready for it because I'm going to say it.................. allright you ready here it is

SPEEDBLITZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

#20 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Yea trust me I LOVE Jets. I would never say an A-10 can go Mach 4 haha

#21 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32:

They have no TP feats of course. Martian Manhunter wasn't even introduced yet. But does Pheoniz use TP(offensively) during battle besides Xavier who she knew had TP and was assulted first? Does she have any TP feats besides "beating" Xavier?

The inundation of the minds of both Cyclopes and Wolverine compelling them to come to her, and blocking Nightcrawler from using his powers are offensive TP feats. Flight is a power, heat vision is a power, super speed is a power, super strength another power with no feats of tp resistance she can block them from using their speed and flood their minds with any thoughts she chooses.

As far as you downplaying her tk feat with the water, it never let up. She created a wall and blocked water that was still rushing at it with full force, she then released that water and it all came crashing down on her, we learn later that her tk created a cocoon to protect her from being obliterated like the forest that once stood where the water flowed, so she did hold back millions of tons either way you look at it. Her ability to create a vast field of tk is instant, I assume they are facing each other before the battle starts, so at the word go her thoughts cover the field and everything in it. While people always bring up the speed she can do things and only mention the bullets in the 3rd movie is beyond me, when it was shown in X2 that she was fast enough to blindly catch 2 missiles which generally move at supersonic speeds before they reached her, I'm confident she can react to charging aliens that she is actually looking at.

(EDIT) The fact that none of them combined weigh even 10 tons makes it easier for her to manipulate them anyway, as she showed she could manipulate multiple tons of matter when she was just 11 years old.

#22 Posted by Park (2976 posts) - - Show Bio

Magneto should be able to slow Faora and Zod down, a little bit. Xavier has a tendency to use his powers to make people just freeze. If that works I could see Phoenix using her molecular tp to rip the kryptonians apart, while Storm and Magneto spam violent offense.

#23 Posted by JediXMan (30649 posts) - - Show Bio

The MoS team stomps. They showed durability that far surpassed Wolverine, who was able to resist the Phoenix.

Moderator
#24 Edited by theONEtaichou (1530 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

The MoS team stomps. They showed durability that far surpassed Wolverine, who was able to resist the Phoenix.

No way... Phoenix atomising is so great it can only be stopped by Wolverine's pants (they are atom-less) or adamantium (which also doesn't have atoms btw, but somehow Silver Samurai could cut it O_o)

good day

#25 Posted by Pokeysteve (8304 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone is REALLY bitter about MoS. Let it go.

#26 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

Someone is REALLY bitter about MoS. Let it go.

Not bitter at all, its the same people who spam MoS win or Speed blitz. So there is a clear small group of die hard fans only.

I for one was simply not that impressed with the movie feats.

#27 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

The inundation of the minds of both Cyclopes and Wolverine compelling them to come to her, and blocking Nightcrawler from using his powers are offensive TP feats. Flight is a power, heat vision is a power, super speed is a power, super strength another power with no feats of tp resistance she can block them from using their speed and flood their minds with any thoughts she chooses.

She has only been shown to block mutants from their powers and that was only once. I don't even think we should include that if we are talking Pheonix. And you do realize Kryptonains powers aren't actually a gene or within them right? The only way you can stop them from using their powers is by stopping their connection to the sun which she can't do. So I don't see how this power is relevant? Either way I don't recall them showing her doing that to more than one person? And you're listing all of these things as if it would be "in character".

The only thing I would say she can block is heat vision.

And flood their minds huh? I haven't watched X-Men in a while so can you point out who she did this to and what happened? Becuase anytime they do things like this people usually just scream "Get out of my head!". Being overloaded should work in the same fashion as this and they have overcame that.

As far as you downplaying her tk feat with the water, it never let up. She created a wall and blocked water that was still rushing at it with full force, she then released that water and it all came crashing down on her, we learn later that her tk created a cocoon to protect her from being obliterated like the forest that once stood where the water flowed, so she did hold back millions of tons either way you look at it. Her ability to create a vast field of tk is instant, I assume they are facing each other before the battle starts, so at the word go her thoughts cover the field and everything in it. While people always bring up the speed she can do things and only mention the bullets in the 3rd movie is beyond me, when it was shown in X2 that she was fast enough to blindly catch 2 missiles which generally move at supersonic speeds before they reached her, I'm confident she can react to charging aliens that she is actually looking at.

This was her shield. She clearly only diverted the water and some was still hitting her. It would have been much more impresive is she held it all back at once.

This water is clearly not deep and after a while the water would have already settled down so how is she holding back millions of tons? That doesn't make much sense. And wouldn't that still be diverting as in teh water going over her as in compared to actually holding water back to the point it doesn't touch her shield?

How far were these missiles? 400 feet away? How powerful were them? World Engine easily drapped up missiles. The World Engine should be able to hold back several million tons also and Superman still survived it and was able to fly up and destroy it while he was weakened.

(EDIT) The fact that none of them combined weigh even 10 tons makes it easier for her to manipulate them anyway, as she showed she could manipulate multiple tons of matter when she was just 11 years old.

This would very much help...

#28 Posted by Pokeysteve (8304 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

Someone is REALLY bitter about MoS. Let it go.

Not bitter at all, its the same people who spam MoS win or Speed blitz. So there is a clear small group of die hard fans only.

I for one was simply not that impressed with the movie feats.

Doesn't negate the feats that are right there on screen though. With this one, Storm and Mags get blitzed. Phoenix might be able to react whomever attacks her with this starting distance but with Storm and Mag getting one shotted those two Kryptonians can flank or attack from behind.

#29 Edited by CF12793 (2992 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

@cadencev2 said:

@pokeysteve said:

Someone is REALLY bitter about MoS. Let it go.

Not bitter at all, its the same people who spam MoS win or Speed blitz. So there is a clear small group of die hard fans only.

I for one was simply not that impressed with the movie feats.

Doesn't negate the feats that are right there on screen though. With this one, Storm and Mags get blitzed. Phoenix might be able to react whomever attacks her with this starting distance but with Storm and Mag getting one shotted those two Kryptonians can flank or attack from behind.

Curious, why do you think Phoenix may be able to react, but Mags could not?

Also I do go by the feats, there Speed Blitz is slower than Bullets. I watched the movie 3 times now and went Frame by Frame of Faora and Zod Speed Blitzing. It is slower than Mach 1 when they do their Blitz Punch thing.

#31 Posted by Black_Arrow (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

@cadencev2 said:

@pokeysteve said:

Someone is REALLY bitter about MoS. Let it go.

Not bitter at all, its the same people who spam MoS win or Speed blitz. So there is a clear small group of die hard fans only.

I for one was simply not that impressed with the movie feats.

Doesn't negate the feats that are right there on screen though. With this one, Storm and Mags get blitzed. Phoenix might be able to react whomever attacks her with this starting distance but with Storm and Mag getting one shotted those two Kryptonians can flank or attack from behind.

Curious, why do you think Phoenix may be able to react, but Mags could not?

Also I do go by the feats, there Speed Blitz is slower than Bullets. I watched the movie 3 times now and went Frame by Frame of Faora and Zod Speed Blitzing. It is slower than Mach 1 when they do their Blitz Punch thing.

Magnet can react but he cant get metal to protect himself fast enough and Storm can t do anything to hurt the kryptonians.

#32 Posted by Supersaiyan_Danger (722 posts) - - Show Bio

X-men wins if they play it smart.

#33 Posted by Pokeysteve (8304 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

@cadencev2 said:

@pokeysteve said:

Someone is REALLY bitter about MoS. Let it go.

Not bitter at all, its the same people who spam MoS win or Speed blitz. So there is a clear small group of die hard fans only.

I for one was simply not that impressed with the movie feats.

Doesn't negate the feats that are right there on screen though. With this one, Storm and Mags get blitzed. Phoenix might be able to react whomever attacks her with this starting distance but with Storm and Mag getting one shotted those two Kryptonians can flank or attack from behind.

Curious, why do you think Phoenix may be able to react, but Mags could not?

Also I do go by the feats, there Speed Blitz is slower than Bullets. I watched the movie 3 times now and went Frame by Frame of Faora and Zod Speed Blitzing. It is slower than Mach 1 when they do their Blitz Punch thing.

Phoenix's telekenesis will be quicker to use than Mag's magnetic control. She can essentially put up a shield in front of her while he has to grab on to something nearby and put it in front of him. She has a better chance at blocking them than he does.

In this fight the numbers concerning their speed doesn't really matter. Everyone here has normal human level reaction speed and trained soldiers couldn't react to any of the Kryptonian attacks. Even if you take away their speed no one on the Marvel team can really do anything. Their durability is higher than anything the other team is capable of overcoming. Phoenix's skin stripping thing is debatable I guess.

#34 Posted by Black_Arrow (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

Zod solos he can use heat vision to kill them all.

#35 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

Zod solos he can use heat vision to kill them all.

Not if Jean just keeps the heat vision from leaving his eyes ^_^

She was able to suppress Cyclop's powers in the movie, when he removed his glasses, so she could see his eye color before she killed him.

#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow said:

Zod solos he can use heat vision to kill them all.

Not if Jean just keeps the heat vision from leaving his eyes ^_^

She was able to suppress Cyclop's powers in the movie, when he removed his glasses, so she could see his eye color before she killed him.

Cyclops eye beam >>> Superman or Zods heat vision.

#37 Edited by patrat18 (9791 posts) - - Show Bio

Before Jean can move a finger, she would get smashed into the pavement.

#38 Edited by Black_Arrow (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf said:

@black_arrow said:

Zod solos he can use heat vision to kill them all.

Not if Jean just keeps the heat vision from leaving his eyes ^_^

She was able to suppress Cyclop's powers in the movie, when he removed his glasses, so she could see his eye color before she killed him.

Jean was prepared in that situation but in this the battle if zod does this he will kill all of them.

#39 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32:

She has only been shown to block mutants from their powers and that was only once. I don't even think we should include that if we are talking Pheonix. And you do realize Kryptonains powers aren't actually a gene or within them right? The only way you can stop them from using their powers is by stopping their connection to the sun which she can't do. So I don't see how this power is relevant? Either way I don't recall them showing her doing that to more than one person? And you're listing all of these things as if it would be "in character".

So what if she did it once, the point is she did it, and if done telepathically, the process works by blocking the power via it's connection to the mind and the trigger in the mind that controls it. Why would we not include things Jean Grey can do when she is tapping her full power? First of all the Phoenix persona is just Jean tapping her full power without regard for anything, the energy flare in her eyes that eventually engulfed her body in psionic flame shows that she was tapping the exact same power "Phoenix" was. Anything Jean Grey can do at even her base levels are completely possible for her when her Phoenix persona takes over, because it is nothing more than a more powerful version of the same person. Why would it not be in character when it was done by the character without being bloodlust, and that is irrelevant as you asked if she had any other offensive TP feats outside of battleing Xavier, which is a feat in of itself because he is a powerful telepath and his mind was no match for her, so there is no reason to believe she can't just enter their minds and attack in the same manner except they are not telepaths and shouldn't be able to put up much of fight.

The only thing I would say she can block is heat vision.

If they have to think to engage their powers, then that means a telepath can block them from triggering said powers, so she can use the same feat she used on Nightcrawler to keep them from flying, which means not flying at targets at supersonic speeds.

And flood their minds huh? I haven't watched X-Men in a while so can you point out who she did this to and what happened? Becuase anytime they do things like this people usually just scream "Get out of my head!". Being overloaded should work in the same fashion as this and they have overcame that.

In the third movie she bombarding both Cyclopes and Wolverine to come to her, the feat not only compelled them and fed them information as to where to go it also caused confusion, she is a telepath and trained it's not far fetched to say she can put anything thoughts she wants into their heads based on her ability to enter any mind she encountered, and plant images, words and blocks. If her will can overcome the will of Xavier I don't see them screaming and overcoming her, with no feats against powerful telepaths, that could enter the mind of powerful telepath at the age of 11 with no difficulty and then beat that telepath in a mental battle.

This was her shield. She clearly only diverted the water and some was still hitting her. It would have been much more impresive is she held it all back at once.

What? At what point did the water touch her before she released it? Did you see sprays of water sprinkle on her and are trying to use that to some how discredit the feat that held back much more than a spray? When she did release it, it did hit her all at once and she survived due to her telekinesis.

This water is clearly not deep and after a while the water would have already settled down so how is she holding back millions of tons? That doesn't make much sense. And wouldn't that still be diverting as in teh water going over her as in compared to actually holding water back to the point it doesn't touch her shield?

The water was rushing at her and took out trees as the wave covered them from top to bottom, it flowed around her and began to settle as it was filling the forest. Even if she was not clearly raising a wall to hold back water that was rushing towards her, how does the speed of that water negate how much water actually hit the wall? There were millions of tons held back by that damn and when it broke millions of tons rushed out, and leveled a forest but not anything protected by Jeans tk box.

How far were these missiles? 400 feet away? How powerful were them? World Engine easily drapped up missiles. The World Engine should be able to hold back several million tons also and Superman still survived it and was able to fly up and destroy it while he was weakened.

One was nearly hit the Xjet, she caught it and lost her power boost and it explode before she could direct it away like she did the one before it. She was in front of the Jet which means if the jet was not there she can catch missiles directed at her well within 400 feet. What does the World engine have to do with this? Your speculating that it can hold back several millions tons and then comparing it to a psychic energy field, there is no comparison. Jean can create a wall, power a jet, lift it and mindrape at the same time. She can disassemble matter, pin several targets (including an "unstoppable" one that had started to build momentum), lift a house, and use telepathy to match wills with another powerful more skilled telepath at the same time.

@black_arrow

Jean was prepared in that situation but in this the battle if zod does this he will kill all of them.

How was she prepared? She was looking for him and he was behind her. He fired and she turned around and instantly put up a shield. She will not have her back to Zod or any member of his team in this battle. She can anticipate them firing like she was able to sense Cyclopes and react the first time when he nearly blasted Magneto and Mystique. The second time he fires at her bloodlusted using a sneak attack with no indication of her sensing him until after he decided to fire, and still being able to react and use her powers to hold his back.

#40 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

So what if she did it once, the point is she did it, and if done telepathically, the process works by blocking the power via it's connection to the mind and the trigger in the mind that controls it. Why would we not include things Jean Grey can do when she is tapping her full power? First of all the Phoenix persona is just Jean tapping her full power without regard for anything, the energy flare in her eyes that eventually engulfed her body in psionic flame shows that she was tapping the exact same power "Phoenix" was. Anything Jean Grey can do at even her base levels are completely possible for her when her Phoenix persona takes over, because it is nothing more than a more powerful version of the same person. Why would it not be in character when it was done by the character without being bloodlust, and that is irrelevant as you asked if she had any other offensive TP feats outside of battleing Xavier, which is a feat in of itself because he is a powerful telepath and his mind was no match for her, so there is no reason to believe she can't just enter their minds and attack in the same manner except they are not telepaths and shouldn't be able to put up much of fight.

For something to be in character you would have to do it more than once. So because she only did it once I don't see why its being used here? I ddin't see Pheonix do that the whole entire move of Last Stand and since this is PHeonix it means she's not going to do anything like that right?

Pheonix is more like a possesive thing more than anything. Schizophrenia. We may have a boxer that is an amazing fighter but he has schizophrenia which causes him to go crazy and angry, so he's not necessarily going to fight the same. Pheonix and Jean is two different personas so why inculde what Jean was doing? And how was it "no match for her" is she still had trouble winning and simply resorted to disintegrating him? Thats like having a 1-on-1 Basketball game and I'm leading by just a bit but decide to knock the guy out. Does that mean the opponent was "no match" for me?

She has only gotten in telepathic battle with telepaths. But since thats the case

  1. Why didn't she just shut down Wolverines mind if thats the case?
  2. Why didn't she just telepathically dominate everyone on the field?

And aren't you the same one that tried to make a case similar like this for SS though he only did it to the FF4 who are powered by cosmic energy, something he can manipulate? There's key differences between mutants and Kryptonians.

If they have to think to engage their powers, then that means a telepath can block them from triggering said powers, so she can use the same feat she used on Nightcrawler to keep them from flying, which means not flying at targets at supersonic speeds.

Why are you comparing this to Nightcrawler? Wouldn't the appropiate person be Cyclops? You're here trying to find the strongest things she has done but its just not working. When she did it to Cyclops his eyes were still going and it seemed as if she only supressed it(kept the beams within his eyes).

Again. Mutants and Kryptonains work differently. And we shouldn't even be including something that Jean did and Pheonix did.

Why didn't she just stop Wolverine telepathically instead of atomizing him which obviously wasn't working?

In the third movie she bombarding both Cyclopes and Wolverine to come to her, the feat not only compelled them and fed them information as to where to go it also caused confusion, she is a telepath and trained it's not far fetched to say she can put anything thoughts she wants into their heads based on her ability to enter any mind she encountered, and plant images, words and blocks. If her will can overcome the will of Xavier I don't see them screaming and overcoming her, with no feats against powerful telepaths, that could enter the mind of powerful telepath at the age of 11 with no difficulty and then beat that telepath in a mental battle.

Question. What do you think happens to the Kryptonains when they are being overloaded? Oh.

And because she can enter the minds she can win? I never even said she can't enter Kryptonaians mind so what's your point?

What? At what point did the water touch her before she released it? Did you see sprays of water sprinkle on her and are trying to use that to some how discredit the feat that held back much more than a spray? When she did release it, it did hit her all at once and she survived due to her telekinesis.

No you're here trying to say that she held back tons of water but she only diverted it. That's not teh same thing. And some proof was that water was still hitting her(when she first started).

The water was rushing at her and took out trees as the wave covered them from top to bottom, it flowed around her and began to settle as it was filling the forest. Even if she was not clearly raising a wall to hold back water that was rushing towards her, how does the speed of that water negate how much water actually hit the wall? There were millions of tons held back by that damn and when it broke millions of tons rushed out, and leveled a forest but not anything protected by Jeans tk box.

Taking out trees? Wow. So impressive. By feats Superman could have stood there and took the force of the dam. Do you know whats having gravity hit from right ontop of you?

Think of it. The World Engine is able to destroy skyscrapers and then pick it up. A sky scraper can be from 300,000-600,000 tons. Now imagine. Its picking up MULTIPLE sky scrapers so thats several million tons also and it keeps on rising from there. You can include a couple cars, trains, planes, and trucks. Superman fought off this gravity putting all of this force on him while standing up and weakened. The World Engine was also capable of picking up tons of water replicating the same feat that Pheonix did at the end of X-Men but even more.

Technically the World Engine is capable of lifting everything on half of the planet while the other does the same. That's much more than the Jeans TK can handle.

Leveling a city>Leveling a forest.

One was nearly hit the Xjet, she caught it and lost her power boost and it explode before she could direct it away like she did the one before it. She was in front of the Jet which means if the jet was not there she can catch missiles directed at her well within 400 feet. What does the World engine have to do with this? Your speculating that it can hold back several millions tons and then comparing it to a psychic energy field, there is no comparison. Jean can create a wall, power a jet, lift it and mindrape at the same time. She can disassemble matter, pin several targets (including an "unstoppable" one that had started to build momentum), lift a house, and use telepathy to match wills with another powerful more skilled telepath at the same time.

That's not 400 feet.....

Dam Feat

So within this fear she was able to hold back the force of water, power the jet, lift it and mind rape(nightcrawler) at the same time and got into Xaviers mind(which he basically let her in).

Take out the powering Jet becuase that isn't much and stopping a mutant from teleporting which should be easy since he has had no form of telepathic defense.

Superman was able to hold his own against the World Engines defenses , stand up right under the world engine resisting the push and pull of the World Engine, survive under conditions that weakened him and could have killed him(When Faora was weakened she was KOd by a missile, see the power?), being able to fly up several hundred feet under these conditions, and then managing to one shot the world engine when he was weakened and dying.

He's doing all of this while he's beind mind assulted/overloaded.

Which one sounds more impressive to you....

Who cares about Juggernaut? He had no feats even suggest that he was "unstoppable" or what percautions they stook to consider him unstoppable. She completely reverse the gravity so what do you expect? Him to run upside down? Him to run on thin air?

Lift a house? How much did the house weigh? Becuase Nam-Ek was able to throw 20-30 tons across town and I'm pretty sure that Superman is stronger than Nam-Ek.

Disintegrating is out of the question because she wont be doing that. The only TP she's going to use is the whoel voices thing which wouldn't work too well and TK which the Kryptonains should be able to over power.

#41 Posted by eternityx (2778 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix solos

#42 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32:

For something to be in character you would have to do it more than once. So because she only did it once I don't see why its being used here? I ddin't see Pheonix do that the whole entire move of Last Stand and since this is PHeonix it means she's not going to do anything like that right?

Movie Jean only did most of her feats once, so according to your logic she can only use molecular deconstruction because during her limited screen time that is all she can do? She is a telepath and can perform a telepathic feat under her own power, there is nothing to suggest she can't do it as many times as she wants when we are using a version of her that has no limits to how she uses her powers. If she is in "Phoenix" mode in this thread then nothing is out of character for her.

Pheonix is more like a possesive thing more than anything. Schizophrenia. We may have a boxer that is an amazing fighter but he has schizophrenia which causes him to go crazy and angry, so he's not necessarily going to fight the same. Pheonix and Jean is two different personas so why inculde what Jean was doing? And how was it "no match for her" is she still had trouble winning and simply resorted to disintegrating him? Thats like having a 1-on-1 Basketball game and I'm leading by just a bit but decide to knock the guy out. Does that mean the opponent was "no match" for me?

This thread calls her Phoenix so even if you ignore she consciously tapped that powerful before she went nuts, she would still be using these levels of power at the word go.

She has only gotten in telepathic battle with telepaths. But since thats the case

  1. Why didn't she just shut down Wolverines mind if thats the case?
  2. Why didn't she just telepathically dominate everyone on the field?

And aren't you the same one that tried to make a case similar like this for SS though he only did it to the FF4 who are powered by cosmic energy, something he can manipulate? There's key differences between mutants and Kryptonians.

Right, so a telepathic battle with a non-telepath should prove no problem, they have no way of keeping her out of their minds and starting a fight, when another telepath couldn't.

1. PIS.

2.PIS.

She could have, because Xavier could and she is more powerful than him.

Why are you comparing this to Nightcrawler? Wouldn't the appropiate person be Cyclops? You're here trying to find the strongest things she has done but its just not working. When she did it to Cyclops his eyes were still going and it seemed as if she only supressed it(kept the beams within his eyes).

Again. Mutants and Kryptonains work differently. And we shouldn't even be including something that Jean did and Pheonix did.

Why didn't she just stop Wolverine telepathically instead of atomizing him which obviously wasn't working?

What? The physical origin of a power is not relevant when you trigger it by thinking and are dealing with a telepath.

Question. What do you think happens to the Kryptonains when they are being overloaded? Oh.

And because she can enter the minds she can win? I never even said she can't enter Kryptonaians mind so what's your point?

Answer. The same thing that happens to non-kryptonians without telepathic shielding. MINDRAPE!

What's yours? They have minds, those minds are not telepathic anything but open, so she can win because they can't stop or even know she is doing something in there.

No you're here trying to say that she held back tons of water but she only diverted it. That's not teh same thing. And some proof was that water was still hitting her(when she first started).

Do you know the nature of liquids? If a flood comes and hits a foundation it will naturally go around, water will seek the path of least resistance, that does not mean the water will make a conscious effort to avoid the barrier. It will hit it and what can't get through will flow around, in the meantime the force from what is coming will not lessen.

Taking out trees? Wow. So impressive. By feats Superman could have stood there and took the force of the dam. Do you know whats having gravity hit from right ontop of you?

One of your meaningless tangents I see. Keep it in the context of the argument you started. You said the water wasn't deep, if it came and rushed over the top of tall trees in an old forest, then it was deep enough.

Think of it. The World Engine is able to destroy skyscrapers and then pick it up. A sky scraper can be from 300,000-600,000 tons. Now imagine. Its picking up MULTIPLE sky scrapers so thats several million tons also and it keeps on rising from there. You can include a couple cars, trains, planes, and trucks. Superman fought off this gravity putting all of this force on him while standing up and weakened. The World Engine was also capable of picking up tons of water replicating the same feat that Pheonix did at the end of X-Men but even more.

I still don't see how you can compare a sentient being with psionic power to this. My instances of mention the millions of tons of water is to illustrate that her shields can take much more than they can dish out. Your point?

Technically the World Engine is capable of lifting everything on half of the planet while the other does the same. That's much more than the Jeans TK can handle.

Leveling a city>Leveling a forest.

See above, what is your point? He took on a machine that can do things like Jean so he can beat Jean? Even though you ignore that Jean has psi powers that he cannot see, has telepathy that he can't fight. Jean went on to cover an Island with her power still spreading outwards, as it was stated in the movie there were no limits to her powers, we only don't get to experience that because it's a movie and there is a plot.

So you have proved nothing. She can enter their minds, and since she knows of more than one thing she can basically do whatever she wants in there as far as planting thoughts and blocks, unless you have evidence that they can overcome a telepath of her level, which is more powerful than a telepath like Xavier. You have not proved she can't effectively use tk to shield from their attacks or outright take them apart atom by atom, because she is a person that can target those atoms and keep pulling until they are apart without the PIS that she suffers from in the movie. Jean Grey as far as feats and power output combined is arguably one of the most powerful characters a marvel movie has created.

#43 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

"Movie Jean did only most of her feats once". Huh?

  • Disintegration? Instance One: Cyclops, Instance 2: Breaking out of X-Mansion, Instance 3: Xavier, Instance 4: Island. She only had 6 apperances of screen time and out of that six she used this power 5 times. It's not like she'll be using this power.
  • TP? Three times out of 6 so this goes in. Two of those times were just voices. 33% chance she'll do a "telepathic assult" and I mean like the one with Xavier. Though she only did this when she was protecting herself....
  • TK? All of her scenes.

This thread calls her Phoenix so even if you ignore she consciously tapped that powerful before she went nuts, she would still be using these levels of power at the word go.

So you're saying this would take some time right? You do know time isn't on her side right? There's Regular Jean, Pheonix Jean(Normal Eyes; Morals On), and Pheonix Jean(Black Eyes: Morals Off).

Right, so a telepathic battle with a non-telepath should prove no problem, they have no way of keeping her out of their minds and starting a fight, when another telepath couldn't.

1. PIS.

2.PIS.

She could have, because Xavier could and she is more powerful than him.

Wow. Just wow.

So its PIS when she doesn't use her powers at its full potential all of the time? This is her "in character" so "in character" she wouldn't do these types of things. The answer is not PIS but the different personas. She has 3 different personas within the movie but two of those were under one person but that one person also had two different personas?(Regular, Regular, Dark). Get it?

What? The physical origin of a power is not relevant when you trigger it by thinking and are dealing with a telepath.

I don't get this? How does this work? Teleporting and lifting something up is two different things. Lifting something is what comes naturally. So if I have a dumbbell that I can easily lift she can, according to you, limit my strength? When has she done anything like this?

Answer. The same thing that happens to non-kryptonians without telepathic shielding. MINDRAPE!

What's yours? They have minds, those minds are not telepathic anything but open, so she can win because they can't stop or even know she is doing something in there.

Oh God.

So your example of mind rape

"In the third movie she bombarding both Cyclopes and Wolverine to come to her, the feat not only compelled them and fed them information as to where to go it also caused confusion, she is a telepath and trained it's not far fetched to say she can put anything thoughts she wants into their heads based on her ability to enter any mind she encountered, and plant images, words and blocks."

You answered "the same thing...." so wouldn't that mean they can over come this? Aren't tehy also confused? Don't they hear noises from cars and trucks and everything else? Don't they see things(x-ray etc)? And has she ever forced someone to do something for her? Becuase it seems like that what you are trying to imply when you say "thoughts".

Do you know the nature of liquids? If a flood comes and hits a foundation it will naturally go around, water will seek the path of least resistance, that does not mean the water will make a conscious effort to avoid the barrier. It will hit it and what can't get through will flow around, in the meantime the force from what is coming will not lessen.

If I'm in a hallway and theres a flood coming my way and I "block it" I would be creating that rectangle to stop the water compeletely; not letting it het past me. Where would the water now move?

One of your meaningless tangents I see. Keep it in the context of the argument you started. You said the water wasn't deep, if it came and rushed over the top of tall trees in an old forest, then it was deep enough.

It wasn't deep? It was clearly only as high as that ship which isn't really deep. So just becuase its deep in one area it deep in all areas? Makes perfect sense.

I still don't see how you can compare a sentient being with psionic power to this. My instances of mention the millions of tons of water is to illustrate that her shields can take much more than they can dish out. Your point?

They both can picks up without touching it......whats the difference? If you look at both you could call them both telekenises since they work in the same fashion. And it seemed that part of her TK directly towards gravity....something the World Engine manipulates.

The water setteled down as soon as the Jet was leaving so its not like she was being pounded with force anymore. If I could somehow breathe with no air and I had half of a metal sphere protecting me from water getting in the same exact thing would happen. It not breaking and me survived.

See above, what is your point? He took on a machine that can do things like Jean so he can beat Jean? Even though you ignore that Jean has psi powers that he cannot see, has telepathy that he can't fight. Jean went on to cover an Island with her power still spreading outwards, as it was stated in the movie there were no limits to her powers, we only don't get to experience that because it's a movie and there is a plot.

I'm saying Superman has overcame something much more powerful than Jeans TK while he was weakened and Jeans TK required a boost in which she still wasn't able to hold the dam back without eventually being flooded.

No limits to her powers you say? Then shy couldn't she just manipulate Wolverines adamantium? Or why didn't she just easily over power Xavier during the telepathic defense? It shouldn't have been a back and fourth if there as "no limits to her power". All talk and no show. You already know that ehre on the vine what the characters say doesn't matter but what they have shown. One of the reasons DBZ is highly discredited....

If anything Sebastian is the one with "no limits to his power" because he had no struggle shown absorbing anything.

So you have proved nothing. She can enter their minds, and since she knows of more than one thing she can basically do whatever she wants in there as far as planting thoughts and blocks, unless you have evidence that they can overcome a telepath of her level, which is more powerful than a telepath like Xavier. You have not proved she can't effectively use tk to shield from their attacks or outright take them apart atom by atom, because she is a person that can target those atoms and keep pulling until they are apart without the PIS that she suffers from in the movie. Jean Grey as far as feats and power output combined is arguably one of the most powerful characters a marvel movie has created.

I've proven nothing?

  1. I never said she couldn't enter their minds? In fact I've said she can. But I said they can overpower it since they were able to do so while they were being over loaded.
  2. You have proven nothing about the blocks and it doesn't make any logical sense what so ever. Picking up things is more of a physical than a mental thing. Point invalid.
  3. When has Pheonix planeted thoughts in peoples head? Don't tell me you mean Cyclops... He heard her voice and he was curios. Nothing more to it. Point Invalid.
  4. She has never faced anyone of their durability so you have no proof here. They survived the re-entry of Earth atomosphere which would competely atomize you. And she's not going to do this "in character" because that would be dark eyes which is her out of character. Point Invalid.
  5. And if they fly around her shields? They are too fast for her to react to anywaus. By the end of the movie they theoritcally can punch at the force of millions of tons since Zod could make Superman go flying while the World Engine couldn't after a while. Point Invalid.
#46 Posted by IheartZombies92 (2200 posts) - - Show Bio

I only have one word to say...................... are you ready are you sure .................get ready for it because I'm going to say it.................. allright you ready here it is

SPEEDBLITZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

#47 Posted by RetconCrisis (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

Knowing how it's in character for MoS Kryptonians to speed blitz, they win. And MoS characters only look slower when battling humans because they are sorta half-arsing it and slapping the humans away like flies (also to show off their durability).

#48 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32:

I'm wasted right now, and was half wasted when I responded before...I shall return to take this apart like I do all your other posts... I do enjoy your presence though:)

#49 Posted by Experio (16078 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm rooting for the X-men due to Phoenix

#50 Posted by IronStark22 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

the hell is this DC fapboys?

even in a garbage film like Man of Steel you guys are still drooling?

Phoenix clearly solos the MoS verse with ease and you guys are still...ah f8ck it!!!
there is no explaining to people like you