Morrisons JLA vs JSA

@highaccuser: google search found a thread where I had loaded the scans of Al altering his amss as recently as 98/99

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/jsa-vs-avengers-1465672/

post 21 on the page has BA referring to his increasing his mass ready to strike

@highaccuser: I'll respond to you first because there are fewer points to get to lol.

1. As @beatboks1 has already mentioned, Alan clearly holds back in loads of circumstances so as not to unleash his full power. Not to mention that his willpower has always been fluctuating even before Brightest Day. Even in character, he's pulled off feats like stalemating Mordru who had already taken out the rest of the JSA so there are examples of Alan performing at a high level even without losing his morals.
2. A fair point but as you admit, there is a big difference in power between Superman and Wonder Woman. In their two main bloodlusted fights, Superman has possessed a clear physical advantage with either Diana admitting that 2 deadly punches can kill her or by simply having to barely hold back to distract Superman and slow him down. In the context of Wonder Woman vs Power Girl, their physicals are closer together so skill can play a role in the battle's final outcome.
3. Sorry, my actual position must not have been clear with my argument with Frozen. I don't deny that Adam is definitely on a Superman level of physicals, that much is indisputably clear. My contention is that Adam does not surpass Superman in physicals nor in any other category aside from ruthlessness in character. I showed the differences in power levels between Superman and Adam to illustrate my point.
4. Hmm a good aspect to note and I do somewhat agree with you. Having said that, there have been other times when Superman's striking power has shown a greater ability to damage a specific durable target than his fight with Adam did. Bryne was never a fan of a powerful Superman so his fight showed a lack of awareness of this progression in abilities from Superman since he wrote him.

@lvenger: I don't really think it's do with Byrne. But @beatboks1 made the point that Adam is physically stronger than Captain Marvel (different gods), but clearly slower and less endurance, and as we know, Marvel = Superman in strength. From the evidence I can gather from their fight, Superman was struggling with Adam's strength, not his ruthlesness. He wasn't that ruthless against Superman really.

This boils down to characterization. Adam has always been written like that, in the Pre-Crisis comics, namely DC Comics Presents #49, he physically fought Superman and Captain Marvel at the same time with his strength.

@frozen: Silver Age Clark > Bronze Age Adam > Bronze Age Superman > Post Crisis Superman > Post Crisis Black Adam

and Black Adam can not beat Clark

That wasn't really the point, the point was the way he is characterized, in their fight --- Superman struggled. Ignoring the fight isn't something I can really do, that's hard and solid evidence of what happened when they fought each other, and to ignore that and make criticisms of Superman's nature in that fight (despite that he's already fought like that, e.g. against Kal L) isn't how I interpret it.

If they had a fight, they had a fight. It's not something that exactly screamed PIS and that is a feat in itself.

yeah I believe it too.But Clark didn't want to kill him

And Adam didn't want to kill Clark, he didn't exactly seemed bloodlusted as he did against the JSA.

@beatboks1:

o_O the only fight I know of between the two, WW totally cleaned her clock while not even trying. Hell WW has easily taken down Supergirl who has far better feats than Karen Star. If that's what you call matched then i have a very different opinion.

Wonder Woman did stomp her, but she did so with fighting skills rather than physicals. Power girl>Supergirl. That much is clear to me.

That's because I can't load the scans of the incidents when he was a JLAer of him using his molecular manipulation or the JSA (which was 90's and I referenced) of him altering his mass. A fact i stated in that post.

Oh I know he can change his mass. I've seen the scan where he does so, but pre-crisis isn't an apt example in the slightest.

doesn't matter.If Clark wants to kill him,he will do it fairly easily after a long battle.We are talking about a man who managed to counter his vibrating against Wally

@beatboks1:

o_O the only fight I know of between the two, WW totally cleaned her clock while not even trying. Hell WW has easily taken down Supergirl who has far better feats than Karen Star. If that's what you call matched then i have a very different opinion.

Power Girl > Supergirl in feats. Supergirl once punched Superman a dozen times to no effect, she then surrendered to Batman with Superman's powers because she could not hope to even beat him. And when Power Girl fought Diana, she punched her to Canada.

Power Girl's performance against Diana makes Supergirl's look like a joke, by Diana's own admission Power Girl is near her physically but Diana is more skilled.

Superman, has beaten Wonder Woman with ONE punch.

Gallery

He would not really, if both are bloodlust, then I would say it's different. Clark's vibrating is nowhere near Wally's.

Clark managed to counter his vibrating for catching him.Yeah bloodlusted Wally would vibrate through Adam before the fight starts.But Clark would do it after a long battle.If writers wrote a battle like that,ultimately Adam would die.If I wrote a battle like that,again Adam dies

Of course you would...

Because Adam has nothing against vibrating and Clark's speed and durability makes him laughable.

That did not stop him from fighting Jay Garrick...

@frozen said:

@beatboks1:

o_O the only fight I know of between the two, WW totally cleaned her clock while not even trying. Hell WW has easily taken down Supergirl who has far better feats than Karen Star. If that's what you call matched then i have a very different opinion.

Power Girl > Supergirl in feats. Supergirl once punched Superman a dozen times to no effect, she then surrendered to Batman with Superman's powers because she could not hope to even beat him. And when Power Girl fought Diana, she punched her to Canada.

Power Girl's performance against Diana makes Supergirl's look like a joke, by Diana's own admission Power Girl is near her physically but Diana is more skilled.

Superman, has beaten Wonder Woman with ONE punch.

Gallery

Not really sure how that league of one fight has to do with anything...

@highaccuser: It doesn't matter now, I misinterpreted a part of his post.

No She's not and using the feats of Matrix and Linda Danvers (who are not the Supergirl I was referring to, or the one that WW beat) doesn't help your argument at all. If you want to take the feats of low end dopplegangers to down sell the real thing is more than a little disingenuous

The hell did I use Matrix version? The Kara Zor El version has punched Superman a dozen times and it was to no effect and surrendered to Batman with Superman's powers saying she could not physically beat him, compare Supergirl's showing against Wonder Woman and then Power Girl, the latter is better.

@frozen: The only feats I've ever seen of a "supergirl" striking Supes with zero effect was matrix and Linda Danvers. I've never seen Supergirl vs batman so no clue, But I've been shown Supergirl feats in forums that are vastly over Karen, and since I read all pre COIE and most of the Matrix issues am damn well aware they weren't feats of those versions.

This , this and this are the types of interactions I've seen of Kara with Superman.

PG punching WW to Canada is WAY outside what she is normally capable of. We are talking about someone who has been beaten to a bloody Pulp by Ultra Humanite, taken down by Magog, The energy blasts of ultra's gear in issue 1 of her solo series had her in great pain, She was sent flying be a "sonic boom hammer" that sends sonic waves through what it hits. These aren't "low" showings either (I can bring them up) but consistent average. PG's feats aren't as good as those I've seen from Supergirl.

@beatboks1: In Loeb's same series (yes, those scans are Loeb), she punched him a dozen times and nothing happened, he then told her he could beat her any-time if he wants if he cuts loose a bit more. Oh, and she punched a weakened Darkseid to no effect.

They are not vastly above Karen...most are hyperbolic statements on her behalf, whereas Karen actually has better feats.

Supergirl is nowhere near Superman/Black Adam tier.

She even surrendered to Batman wtih his powers in Superman/Batman #56 (this was after he was smacking her around).

PG punching WW to Canada is WAY outside what she is normally capable of. We are talking about someone who has been beaten to a bloody Pulp by Ultra Humanite, taken down by Magog, The energy blasts of ultra's gear in issue 1 of her solo series had her in great pain, She was sent flying be a "sonic boom hammer" that sends sonic waves through what it hits. These aren't "low" showings either (I can bring them up) but consistent average.PG's feats aren't as good as those I've seen from Supergirl.

Lol, no. Power Girl has moved The Moon by herself, she's taken on a Superman clone IIRC, she went toe-to-toe with powerhouses on multiple occasions, she's dodged Wonder Woman's lasso and took her on physically, etc.

JSA

Morrison's Batman solos.

JLA