morgoth(melkor) vs the spectre

Thoughts?

Spectre effortlessly.

@racob7: care to explain

@random_nerd: He's simply many leagues above Morgoth. Morgoth is Darkseid level at best.

@racob7: You my friend, are not smart person

@noah_ouellette: insults, always uncalled for. What has Morgoth done to put him on at least a universal level? Then again, if this is new 52 spectre, he is well above planets.

@noah_ouellette: you, are skating on thin ice. Don't insult someone again.

Morgoth is Doctor Doom level at best. Spectre with no effort wins.

Do you feel better now? Did insulting me do anything for you?

If so, glad I could help.

spectre

@racob7: in fact it did. Is spectre even remotely close to the presence in power? Didn't think so. Melkor is like actually kind of at least 20% of illuvatars power.

@noah_ouellette: They are both representations of the Judeo-Christian creator god, but they are not the same. That's like saying Hulk loses to Kratos because he lost to Zeus.

@noah_ouellette: being the most powerful of the ainur whom are merely the first creations of eru ain't equal to a being represented as god's wrath

@racob7: that's not what I said at all. The only reason melkor cannot universe bust is because illuvatar actually does stuff and he prefers control. Think anyone in marvel could do anything if TOAA was watching over their shoulder going " hey you better watch what you do buddy"

@racob7: also 6/10 hulk would probably lose to Kratos

Melkor wins effortlessly.

@f4ll3nr343pr: thank you for agreeing

Yeah, Melkor can't really win here.

Spectre is an A Class+ Jobber... he would lose handily

@noah_ouellette: No problem. Melkor is so underrated, people just don't how powerful he is, because they dont know that he is actually second to God (Eru) in Tolkien's universe.

Morgoth was held off by Fingolfin, and then by an eagle. In the context of LotR, neither of these are bad things, but I just cant see him fighting actual planetary threats from comic books.

@f4ll3nr343pr: Who cares he's second to Eru... The Valars don't have any feats. At least, none that are even close to the Spectre's level of power.

@thearchon: Why would you need any feats to prove your power if you're second to God? Melkor is on the same power level with that of the beyonder before he assumed a physical form in Arda.

That was a much weaker version of Morgoth though.

What do you mean, because of the whole Ungoliant encounter?

Well the Valar were restricted from using anything close to their full power after entering Arda. Although their power was still great (they were definitely planetary threats, and could reshape the world during their wars), and Melkor was stronger than all of them combined until Tulkas came and tipped the balance in the other Valar's favor. Morgoth's power eventually waned hugely as he dispersed it throughout the world and on his ''creations'' The Morgoth that fought Fingolfin was a shadow of his former self.

We really dont have an exact idea how powerful the Valar were, because it's never directly stated. But all that aside, I still give Spectre the win, and it seems you do as well based on your earlier post.

Yes I do, although in the Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth returns from the timeless void through the door of the night at full power and destroys the Sun and Moon. So he's more than a planetary threat.

@f4ll3nr343pr: Now you are making stuff up. Melkor hasn't done anything that makes him as powerful as Beyonder. You can't even prove that Eru is equal to TOAA and the Presence.

On this website, Feats >>>>> Opinions.

@thearchon: I'm saying that the Beyonder and Melkor are second to God in their respective universes, whereas the Spectre isn't. And TOAA, the Presence and Eru are equal because all three are omnipotent. Of course we can't prove who'd win in a battle between these three because of this. We can't make a lot on Melkor because Tolkien doesn't provide many (powerful) feats for him, however since he is second to God and described to be more powerful than all of the Ainur combined (except Tulkas) we can assume he is more powerful than the Spectre.

Morgoth with his pinky.

@f4ll3nr343pr: Who cares they are both second to God. That doesn't mean anything at all. From what we know of Melkor, he is nowhere as powerful as Spectre. Not even close.

As I said, assumptions <<<<<<<< feats. The Living Tribunal is second to TOAA and he was killed by the Beyonders. Being second to God doesn't make you all powerful. Living Tribunal would stomp Melkor. As long as Melkor doesn't have feats, he will always be under Spectre's level.

Well, they effortlessly stomped Numenor forces. And Numenoreans had probably the strongest military kingdom that ever existed in Arda.

Not arguing, just curious what planet level feat does the New 52 Spectre have? Issue number?

@thearchon: I can't help that Tolkien hasn't provided a variety of feats for Melkor, so I am going on what he has mentioned about Melkor, which is that he was described to be more powerful than all the other Ainur combined (except Tulkas), and that he is second to God. 'Who cares they are second to god, that doesn't mean anything at all'. Are you serious? If you're second to God in your Universe, you are obviously the second most powerful being with nigh-omnipotence, which means you should be able to defeat a being who isn't directly below God in their universe, such as the Spectre. Melkor destroyed the sun and the moon, which doesn't sound that much but that was when he was in a weaker form. Imagine what he could do in his strongest form. His warhammer (Grond) could shatter the earth, again this is his weaker form. He also corrupted the music of Iluvatar, which is an extraordinary feat on its own because he directly opposed the creator, something which the other Ainur would not dare to do. You may say Iluvatar intended for him to do this so it isn't a great feat, however, although he did intend for him to corrupt his music, the point is he gave him the power to do so, which is why he is directly below God in his universe. 'Assumptions < feats'. Except it isn't an assumption that he is second to God and that it is obvious he has the power to destroy the Spectre, because Melkor is nigh-omnipotent, he directly opposed the creator, which I don't believe the Spectre has done. The LT obviously wasn't second to TOAA if he was defeated by the Beyonder, was he? Spectre would win against Melkor in his physical form, but Melkor in his strongest form would annihilate Spectre. You haven't shared any feats of the Spectre, so why not share some before you say Melkor is featless?

Hope this clears this up.

The Spectre.

@f4ll3nr343pr:Wow dude. I didn't know he could shatter the Earth... I would be impressed if Spectre wasn't above Universal level. Even Superman could shatter the Earth...

None of what you posted comes even close to what the Spectre can and has done. Destroying a Sun and a Moon is nothing....

Anyway, I'm not gonna bother posting 20 feats when Melkor doesn't have anything remotely close to this :

By the way, in case you didn't know, it's Hal Jordan speaking. And when he's talking about changing the universe, it's when he was Parallax.

Oh and this one, Spectre preventing 2 worlds (2 Universes) from colliding with eachother :

Last one, he beats a 5th dimension Imp (Universal level who can alter reality at will) :

I don't even know where to begin with this.

@thearchon: Thanks for sharing some feats of the Spectre. Notice how I said That Melkor was in a weaker form when I described those feats. Imagine what he could do when he was a universal level being. Melkor's greatest feat is that he directly opposed the creator and corrupted all the music of the Ainur and sustained it, which would take an insane amount of power considering it was all of them against Melko. Eru gave him the power to corrupt his music, which is why he is directly below God in power. In other words he is nigh-omnipotent. Considering all this, Melkor could probably peform all the feats of the Spectre, the problem is Tolkien is notorious for not being very desciprtive in terms of a characters power (doesn't describe many feats).

spectre

@thearchon: Gathers the divine powers of 100 universes in to single blast

@f4ll3nr343pr: Dude, all you are saying is : Oh, might be able to do that because when he did that he was weaker.

That doesn't make it true, does it? You have no proof he could do something remotely close to what the Spectre has done.

So even if you don't like it, Spectre wins this easily.

@thearchon: I don't think you have read my posts properly. Melkor directly opposed the creator and corrupted all the music of the Ainur including Eru's theme. He has enough power to change the themes of the Ainur to his liking. Everyone against him (including Eru), and he managed to do that. If that isn't worthy of defeating the Spectre then I don't know what is other than omnipotence.

Forget all the other feats I mentioned because they are meaningless compared to this feat.

@f4ll3nr343pr: Again, what you are saying is nothing to what the Spectre has done. We don't even know how powerful Eru is. You like saying he's Omnipotent but the problem is that if I compare what he has done to a 5th dimension Imp like Mr. Mxy, he hasn't done much.

Anyway, I don't think I'll be able to change your mind on the subject. You seem very biased.

Spectre in a stomp. As you said, Melkor can shake the Earth while Spectre can shake the Universe. It pretty much resume the whole debate. Their power levels are not even close. You might think that Melkor could beat him because he's closer to his God but the fact is Spectre was made by the Presence, a being who has shown his Omnipotence and who has created an entire Multiverse and beings far more powerful than any other beings in The Lord of the Ring.

@thearchon: What do you mean we don't know how powerful Eru is, he is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants to do. You can't say the Presence is more powerful than Eru, their both omnipotent, it does not make any sense to say one being is more powerful than the other being if they are both omnipotent, and you're saying that the Presence is more powerful than Eru just because he has created a Multiverse and powerful beings? Eru could do that if he wanted to, he is also omnipotent. He has created powerful beings, the Ainur or the Valar, making Melkor the most powerful of them all. You said that the Spectre can shake the Universe, well so can Melkor. He literally messed up all the music (creations) of the Ainur and Eru himself. The point being, Eru gave Melkor enough power to oppose him and corrupt his creations, which is an insane feat. Basically he was corrupting the entire universe, him alone against everyone else.

How many more times do I have to repeat this?

Also, how am I being bias, I'm trying to prove a point, this is a site where you choose a side and debate about who you think will win, of course there is going to be one-sideness, but I am not being bias, no one is in favour of winning here. You're right that I won't change my mind because if you get all the important facts together, it is simply logical that Melkor would win.

Alright guys lets not get carried away. Spectre handily beats Melkor.

@f4ll3nr343pr: Eru hasn't shown anything even close to being Omnipotent. I've seen people in Marvel and DC with better feats and they have done pretty much the same thing Eru did and even better. Eru, with what we know about him and what he has done, is nowhere even close to Living Tribunal.

Melkor can shake the Universe? Where has he done so? He didn't. What you are saying is what you THINK he could do even though, he hasn't done it. You thought Melkor shaking the Earth was a good feat. It isn't. As I pointed out, Superman could do that.

He was corrupting the Universe? That's a pretty small universe. It's funny that you keep saying that Melkor was powerful enough to oppose Eru. If Melkor was powerful enough to oppose Eru, it's because Eru wasn't Omnipotent. As simple as that.

Oh yeah, the Ainur and the Valar are very powerful... yeah. They have done nothing. From what we know about them, Mr. Mxy would destroy them and their Universe without any opposition. And guess what? Spectre is above 5th dimension Imps, including Mr. Mxy.

Well Melkor and the rest of Ainur did create a universe And Melkor did corrupt the Universe since his song brought evil into the Universe and it was stronger then then the rests off he Ainurs music. A more important question is if the is Melkor before or after he went to Arda since the Ainur that went there lost a lot off their power and the ones that stayed in Ainurs halls remained strong.

It makes no sense to compare Tolkienverse characters to the likes of Marvel and DC universe characters.

Tolkien didn't write comic books, he wrote novels and created a mythology. In Tolkien's novels all that matters is Arda.

If he did decide to create a multiverse, I am pretty sure Melkor would have been some reality warping/universe destroying entity, but he didn't need a character like that to tell the story of Arda.