Standard fight, can one of the most powerful female villains defeat the Titan
Morgan Le Fay vs Thanos
@TheVision said:
@Nefarious said:
Mismatch. I can't flag until tomorrow.No it isn't, look what she did to Sentry
@TheVision said:
@Nefarious said:
@TheVision: No, this is spite against Morgan. The girl can't even beat Dr. Doom.The hell, she beat Doom easily in the same story she destroyed Sentry, he only won later with help
Also once took control of Thor, effortlessly
Thanos>>>>>Thor or Sentry! Not a good comparison.
@jeanroygrant said:
@TheVision said:
@Nefarious said:
Mismatch. I can't flag until tomorrow.No it isn't, look what she did to Sentry
@TheVision said:
@Nefarious said:
@TheVision: No, this is spite against Morgan. The girl can't even beat Dr. Doom.The hell, she beat Doom easily in the same story she destroyed Sentry, he only won later with help
Also once took control of Thor, effortlessly
Thanos>>>>>Thor or Sentry! Not a good comparison.
Yes but so is Morgan. She even intimidated classic Sorcerer Supreme Dr.Strange with her power.
You mean heroes like the Sentry who tore her head off?@Nefarious: You are being too dismissive, not saying Thanos couldn't win but it is close... I believe they are on the same level as Morgan is noticeably far above high end heroes same as Thanos
@Nelomaxwell said:
@TheVision said:You mean heroes like the Sentry who tore her head off?@Nefarious: You are being too dismissive, not saying Thanos couldn't win but it is close... I believe they are on the same level as Morgan is noticeably far above high end heroes same as Thanos
The Doom thing and now this, dang you guys are not good with the context
Question Who won the fight and how did they win?@Nelomaxwell said:
@TheVision said:You mean heroes like the Sentry who tore her head off?@Nefarious: You are being too dismissive, not saying Thanos couldn't win but it is close... I believe they are on the same level as Morgan is noticeably far above high end heroes same as Thanos
The Doom thing and now this, dang you guys are not good with the context
Morgan beat Doom easily the first fight, after Sentry tore off her head she came back and blew him apart, then controlled Venom against his teammates and turned Ares to stone... Doom only eventually beat her with help from Iron Patriot by taking advantage of her iron weakness and then sending her far back in time with a spell
The Big Purple Dinosaur Wins.
Thanos pimp smacks this woman and makes her work.
@rico_3088 said:
Thanos is a different animal, which is why i wonder why did they pick him to be the main villian of any movie. I love him but who are they going to bring into the marvel movies that can deal with him because the current roster ain't go nothing coming.
1) they will make Thanos much weaker than he is in the comic
2) They may introduce Captain Mar-vell or Adam Warlock
3) He may be after the Infinity Gems and the heroes use it's power against him.
Yea, I'd say so.
@kingant27 said:
Thanos
How so? Thanos doesn't have any big magic resistances from what I see, and Morgan's versatile enough to catch him with something.
@professorrespect: He’s endured far worse than her, and he possesses magic himself, while she for most character would deffo prove to much due to her magic; Thanos is too much for her.
She’s getting the same treatment the Sentry gave her.
@kingant27 said:
@professorrespect: He’s endured far worse than her, and he possesses magic himself
Can he take the hax she has through? I know Thanos isn't a noob to magic, but he's exactly anywhere massively skilled either.
She’s getting the same treatment the Sentry gave her
.....but that didn't work out for Sentry? She telefragged him like 30 seconds later.
@professorrespect: I mean he possesses Magic himself, has gone up against and survived hax a lot worse, been distorted in pretty much most ways imaginable and endured; it takes normally absurd power or plot to beat Thanos generally.
True but in that department Thanos is a lot smarter, characters like Sersi, Morgan Le Fay etc are slightly below Thanos.
She’s deffo a Team buster with her top feats, checked all her respect threads and chronology as well as having some crazy outliners, but I would put her below Thanos.
Thanos’s durability is absurd and he can definitely put the beat down on her, or outsmart her IMO.
It’s a shame they don’t use her much, but due to her absurd power, it seems like they save her for special circumstances, kind of like a Circe from DC with less feats.
@kingant27 said:
@professorrespect: I mean he possesses Magic himself, has gone up against and survived hax a lot worse
I mean, how can he resist Morgan freezing time, or abusing it to keep herself alive while using more and more hax?
True but in that department Thanos is a lot smarter
Thanos might have the intellect in terms of technological discoveries but he's not exactly a expert on magic like Morgan is. It's not really a street he's been down a lot.
Thanos’s durability is absurd
His history with hax is very mixed. There's some resistance to forms of it, but I think Morgan can find a manner to effect him.
It’s a shame they don’t use her much
I like it, it doesn't cheapen her presence and when she does show up, it's usually a really big deal.
Thanos
@professorrespect: Theoretically she can do that but Thanos has so much hax himself. Also there was storyline with them trying to kill Thanos back when he was a baby he was still very powerful, and it wouldn’t be a game changer IMO; not to mention his death restrictions.
Thanos is extremely familiar with time Manipulation, will it be enough to beat him probably not, he has his own Freeze guns to stop her aswell, he could TP her, and has such resistant to reality warping she doesn’t really have the power IMO to put him down for good.
Thanos has been up against worse, Cosmos, Odin, has tanked a blast from the Cosmic Cube, kills Phyla-Vell who was amped as a herald of Oblivion, Silver Surfer etc, I don’t see her bringing anything new to the table.
I don’t see her Hax being anything new for him, Thanos is the most powerful Eternal being mutated, even the lowest Eternal can resist magic drain and deal with magic well, Thanos is off the highest order there.
He’s been through endless realities, dealing with reality warping, matter manipulation and more, Thanos durability can take her punishment.
Good point similar to Sersi, she’s a powerful character.
Characters like Wanda, Sersi, Morgan are hax and are powerful, but someone like Thanos is a character that can just tank the reality warping, transmutation and matter manipulation that they can throw his way; and that’s not including him trying hard to put her down.
@kingant27 said:
@professorrespect: Theoretically she can do that but Thanos has so much hax himself
Tbf Thanos doesn't exactly use much of that hax often. Like stuff like telepathy or transmutation? He's used it like maybe once or twice but nothing big. I doubt TP would be effective anyway considering she's got her own feats using it.
Thanos is extremely familiar with time Manipulation, will it be enough to beat him probably not
I mean, can he counter it with his power set? If not, he'd be stuck in place while she has the time to basically throw anything at him.
he could TP her, and has such resistant to reality warping
Well Idk if Thanos would be able to deal with her soul manip, she could use mystic barriers to seal his body, she could telefrag him using time travel, etc. She's got a lot of stuff that Thanos really doesn't have a big counter for.
Thanos has been up against worse, Cosmos, Odin, has tanked a blast from the Cosmic Cube, kills Phyla-Vell who was amped as a herald of Oblivion, Silver Surfer
All of these are brute force battles, however. Hax doesn't follow under those rules.
I don’t see her Hax being anything new for him, Thanos is the most powerful Eternal being mutated, even the lowest Eternal can resist magic drain and deal with magic well
That's cool and all, but Morgan's already stalemated Merlyn for seven days and nights before he relented and let her destroy a forest. Merlyn is probably one of the greatest mystics ever, whom was able to exist throughout all of time and was described as being able to change the future itself if need be due to his status. Thanos doesn't have any such experience against a mystic of that calibre.
Good point similar to Sersi, she’s a powerful character.
Characters like Wanda, Sersi, Morgan are hax and are powerful, but someone like Thanos is a character that can just tank the reality warping
Eh Morgan doesn't really go for reality warping as a go to.
transmutation
I know Thanos probably could resist those attempts by his feats.
@professorrespect: He used more than 7 atleast times to my recollection, He’s TP has outdone Moondragon, Fallen One, Gladiator, Hulk, Adam Warlock, so he can definitely TP her.
That same time argument could be countered by his own freeze gun, not to mention he’s dealt with all kind of realities, had his gadgets and has faced characters with time manipulation before, none have dared attempt it on him; the one time it was they tried to kill baby Thanos. Wasn’t really effective as Thanos is essential to the time line, can always find loop holes with it, and is immune from death.
And to address your time argument further, during Infinity Revelation the new 'Soul' of reality Adam warlock placed Thanos into a temporal time loop, these are said to be nearly impossible to escape from , but Thanos brute forces his way out, Now remember that this was imposed on Thanos by Adam warlock who at that time was the supreme power of this reality he was even higher then Eternity.
All those characters have produced more power than Morgan can produce, her hax isn’t anything Thanos’s isn’t tanking, he regularly tanked reality warping, matter manipulation etc.
Very impressive from Morgan Le Fay, however Thanos is the most durable against magic out of the Eternal and they all have built in high resistance to magic, even Ikaris was fine while Thor was on the ground against an enemy using Magic.
If Magic like Odin cannot harm Thanos to any big level, then her magic isn’t proving any different.
That aside, Thanos has used his own Magic to give Deadpool unending life, to then removing it killing him, that’s very impressive, considering he was able to grant and take away immortality.
I mean by feats she does have a few big outliners, but her general feats are not enough to either overpower or do anything to him, that he can’t really counter, her best case is Time manipulation but it’s already been shown to be dealt with.
I fell like this would be a tough fight but this for me is like Wanda/Sersi trying to beat Thanos, close and could give him a run for his money and if this was most other characters they would probably win via hax, but Thanos is too tanky and durable and their best chances he can defend himself from; but that’s not including his ability to even put them down.
@kingant27 said:
@professorrespect: He used more than 7 atleast times to my recollection, He’s TP has outdone Moondragon
Which is alright, but not enough to say it'll solo.
Fallen One
Hard to judge because he doesn't have any resistance feats.
Gladiator
Glad also doesn't have any to my knowledge, I just recall him pissing his pants with Cassandra.
Hulk
Eh that was a really wonky story that had Thanos be hurt by guys like Groot and whatnot and be completely off character, I don't really take it seriously.
Adam Warlock
Hasn't Adam done the same to him?
so he can definitely TP her.
That same time argument could be countered by his own freeze gun
.....is that standard gear?
not to mention he’s dealt with all kind of realities, had his gadgets and has faced characters with time manipulation before none have dared attempt it on him
That's not proof it doesn't work on him. This isn't reality warping, just stopping time itself.
And to address your time argument further, during Infinity Revelation the new 'Soul' of reality Adam warlock placed Thanos into a temporal time loop, these are said to be nearly impossible to escape from , but Thanos brute forces his way out, Now remember that this was imposed on Thanos by Adam warlock who at that time was the supreme power of this reality
IIRC Adam wasn't LT yet, and that Thanos was from a alternative reality that was later merged and removed.
All those characters have produced more power than Morgan can produce
"power" and "hax" aren't the same thing.
her hax isn’t anything Thanos’s isn’t tanking
You've not really presentedanything to deal with complex soul manip, using mystic barriers to seal his body, telefrag using time travel, etc.
he regularly tanked reality warping, matter manipulation
I've already said those aren't really gonna work anyway.
Very impressive from Morgan Le Fay, however Thanos is the most durable against magic out of the Eternal
.....which doesn't mean much when the Eternals don't have nearly as high of a potency against magic of Morgan's calibre. I've checked out Thanos's magic feats and they aren't really anything that would give her trouble.
If Magic like Odin cannot harm Thanos to any big level
That's Odin using Odinforce as brute force, not hax.
That aside, Thanos has used his own Magic to give Deadpool unending life
Which is fine, but not anything amazing compared to Morgan's many feats.
I mean by feats she does have a few big outliners
True, but those aren't being used here.
but her general feats are not enough to either overpower or do anything to him
Not from what I've seen.
@professorrespect: More than enough, he’s shown to out TP a planetary telepath, Morgan has no feats on that level, he will easily TP her.
Fallen one was the most powerful herald and cosmic awareness so that’s enough to show.
Gladiator’s powerful are heavily based on his mind set and confidence but even that aside he has been aware when the Phoenix at the time tried testing his Mind, So it’s impressive when Thanos done it casually.
He still TP’s the Hulk very impressive, not every story is perfect but the facts were evident for TP, and Hulk deffo has better Tp resistance than Morgan.
TP Adam is very impressive.
It’s in his arsenal.
Show me it
It was Thanos who performed that and still has that feat regardless.
No but Magic is what you mentioned and the Hax you claim hasn’t been backed up.
Thanos has resisted the Hunger’s possession, she won’t cut it.
Magic is what you mentioned which isn’t a problem to Thanos, he has magic himself, in fact he even absorbed more during post Quarry.
Still don’t see her putting him down, when he can TP much easier than she will getting to put him down.
@kingant27 said:
@professorrespect: More than enough, he’s shown to out TP a planetary telepath
Who's a planetary telepath? Moondragon? She TP'd a planet where there was only a few million on it.....even current day Earth trumps that by multiple levels.
Fallen one was the most powerful herald and cosmic awareness
Those aren't TP feats.
Gladiator’s powerful are heavily based on his mind set and confidence but even that aside he has been aware when the Phoenix at the time tried testing his Mind
Glad's confidence effects his physical status, not exactly his mental resistance. He got TP'd by Cassandra when enraged and at relatively good levels.
He still TP’s the Hulk very impressive, not every story is perfect but the facts were evident for TP
I wouldn't count as a feat for Thanos etc. It's a relatively huge jump considering Savage has no sold planetary+ TP multiple times over, and has been described as the most resistant Hulk personality.
TP Adam is very impressive
Yeah, but Adam and Thanos have both TP'd each other successfully.
It’s in his arsenal
Yeah, but we can't just assume Thanos has everything he ever used bar amps just on his body. Like with every character, they use specific devices but will not obviously always have them on to use.
It was Thanos who performed that
It was a alt Thanos etc
No but Magic is what you mentioned and the Hax you claim
What hax I've claimed? Soul hax you'd already know from the RT considering, mystic barriers have been used to disable Doc Doom, who's pretty potent in terms of magic, way more showcased than Thanos anyway. Telefrag was her go to in Dark Avengers as well.
hasn’t been backed up.
Thanos has resisted the Hunger’s possession
Wasn't that due to tech prep he'd done before the fight even started? I recall he was backed into a corner by Hunger when they met. Also, the 2003 Thanos mini series isn't canon due to it being a lead up from Marvel Universe: The End.
Magic is what you mentioned which isn’t a problem to Thanos, he has magic himself
Magic which he hasn't shown off outside of making Deadpool immortal.
Morgan Le Fay.
@professorrespect: She still TP’d a whole planet, and above Morgan, Thanos is above both, she can definitely be TP’d.
Glad’s has resisted being probed by Phoenix’s TP.
Just because you don’t like the story it doesn’t discredit the feats, Hulk has planetary defence from TP, however Thanos is above that which what your missing here, beating Moondragon casually is enough to show that he could deffo TP the Hulk.
The feat your referring to I believe might have been under the soul gem or something, but Thanos’s TP is superior.
It was the same Thanos merged, it was 616.
Her hax isn’t doing anything when others has tried.
It was canon, it was the same arc he blasted Galactus, and he resisted possession of being far above Galactus.
Magic he shown off effecting immortality one of the highest grades, and he’s the most powerful Eternal, which even regular Eternals have better magic resistance than characters like Thor.
I didn’t see her putting him down, while Thanos can definitely put her down easier than the Sentry did.
@kingant27 said:
@professorrespect: She still TP’d a whole planet
But it's not "planetary" considering the population was far below ours, which is usually the standard we use for it.
Glad’s has resisted being probed by Phoenix’s TP
IIRC wasn't that Rachel Grey using a basic illusion on him and then him just figuring out it was inaccurate?
Just because you don’t like the story it doesn’t discredit the feats
It's got nothing to do with not liking the story: it's the fact that the story isn't written well which effects how accurate the feats are.
It was the same Thanos merged, it was 616
Not exactly. 616 Warlock and the other Warlock "merged" but also were 2 separate beings at the same time.
Her hax isn’t doing anything when others has tried
When have others tried to freeze time on him, use mystic barriers to freeze his physical body, or used telefrag?
It was canon, it was the same arc he blasted Galactus
I doubt that considering the writer himself said that Marvel Universe: The End wasn't canon, and the Thanos minirun was a direct tie in for that.
Magic he shown off effecting immortality one of the highest grades
......yea that's the only real feat he has of using magic, and it isn't even in this century.
and he’s the most powerful Eternal
Sounds good on paper but this whole "Eternal resistance" isn't working beyond low level beings. Morgan has been potent enough to effect even the most protected mystics, from Strange to Doom to Merlin.
@professorrespect: Not every planet is the size of Earth so that’s kind of a illogical point, TP’ing a planet the size of Mars for example is still planetoid TP, as well as her TP’ing Thor at the same time she’s very impressive and more than enough.
And Thanos wiped her in a panel, he can definitely TP Morgan.
Rachel wasn’t trying to dominate him, but still actively trying to probe him, with his defences proving fine.
Most story aren’t written well or perfect, but it’s still consistent with their feats and canon more importantly.
They merged and possess the same power, in fact 616 is arguably the most powerful, which doesn’t matter as they merged anyway.
Her powers are absurd, as is her hax, but her timeline ability is matched by Thanos immortality, and his magic allowing him to take away and grant immortality.
I mean I own the comic there, and the notion is that it’s a clear continue of the same arc, where he blasted Galactus, and was still canon, which is where he resisted possession of that Abstract level possession.
Isn’t in this century?
She deffo has some absolutely amazing feats, but I would take Thanos more often than not, his TP, energy beams and sheer durability should prove the winner more often that not.
@kingant27 said:
@professorrespect: Not every planet is the size of Earth so that’s kind of a illogical point
Not exactly. Earth is basically where 98% of TP planetary feats occur anyway, so that's typically considered the standard. Moondragon's planet might be one by size but by population it's insanely below the amount of people on Earth, which obviously reduces the scale of the feat.
And Thanos wiped her in a panel, he can definitely TP Morgan
Successfully? I don't think so.
with his defences proving fine.
Probe him? That was more or less a illusion unless I missed something.
Most story aren’t written well or perfect, but it’s still consistent
....no? Hulk is like his best unassisted TP feat by a good mile lol. Even then it wasn't much TP but more Thanos controlling Hulk's movements as he could still talk normally.
They merged and possess the same power
The Warlock's merged as well but they didn't obviously possess the same power.
Her powers are absurd, as is her hax, but her timeline ability is matched by Thanos immortality
No it isn't? Thanos doing random immortality has nothing on her hax. You haven't even really provided a realistic counter for her freezing him in time or sealing his body.
and his magic
His magic of one feat? You know that's not enough to wank over her beating guys like Strange, Merlyn, Doom, etc.
I mean I own the comic there, and is notion that continue of the same arc
The same arc in which it isn't canon, as the writer himself stated by making it a tie-in to a confirmed uncanon series. You can't exactly override the writer there.
She deffo has some absolutely amazing feats, but I would take Thanos more often than not
his TP
Not enough to win
energy beams
Irrelevant, quite frankly. Even if Thanos kills her he'll not be able to do much against her spirit.
and sheer durability
Blunt force, not hax resistance.
Still illogical as there is more than 1 planet and even if it was smaller than the Earth, she was also TP’d Thor at the same time, that’s extremely powerful, and Thanos beat her with her dropping and him saying he always prevails; he can definitely TP Morgan.
Gladiator resisted Rachel twice very impressive.
Hulk is very good against TP, however Thanos twice now has used TP against the Hulk successfully, he definitely can.
In fact 616 has better feats, as at the very least, he can do that, but it doesn’t mater as he merged and then got a boost since then.
You didn’t get what I was stating, that his own immortality will allow him to not die, but you’ve been filtering my comment for your posts.
Thanos’s counter to freezing is his own freezing against her and more importantly his TP, how is she defending against that.
He isn’t above her in magic, but her magic isn’t doing much to him, he’s resisted far worse and Thanos can do multiple things before it gets to that.
So your telling me Thanos’s interactions with Galactus was non canon aswell?
His TP is more than enough to win, he’s superior than Moondragon, has TP’d Galactus being the driving force with Moondragon, show me one TP feat of Morgan having Planetary TP, nevermind the fact that he beat even Moondragon in one scan.
Then by that case, it could be a stalemate, however she can definitely be TP’d.
@kingant27 said:
Still illogical as there is more than 1 planet and even if it was smaller than the Earth
It's not the case that it's "smaller" than the Earth, it's the fact that the population was only in the millions, way below Earth by any metric. It's still a "planet" but comparing it to congenital planetary feats is missing the mark by a fair bit.
she was also TP’d Thor at the same time
......eh? Thor's decent but he's not breaking the bank either.
Gladiator resisted Rachel twice very impressive
It was less "resisted" as he was in the illusion successfully but figured out it was fake from details she got wrong, namely the weapon they were using to "hurt" him coming from a planet where it wasn't produced.
Hulk is very good against TP, however Thanos twice now has used TP against the Hulk
.....twice? It's only once from my knowledge, and as we all know that one instance is extremely suspect.
You didn’t get what I was stating, that his own immortality will allow him to not die
His "immortality" won't stop him from being haxed.
Thanos’s counter to freezing is his own freezing against her
Which is incorrect as it's gear he almost always doesn't have/use and it still doesn't stop her from doing the same thing.
and more importantly his TP, how is she defending against that
.....with TP feats?
He isn’t above her in magic, but her magic isn’t doing much to him, he’s resisted far worse
Far worse magic? Not by hax potency, no. I still don't see how he can get past it.
So your telling me Thanos’s interactions with Galactus was non canon aswell?
If it was in the same run, that's what I've been told anyway. The guy writing it said The End wasn't canon, and as you know that run is directly tied in with it.
Then by that case, it could be a stalemate, however she can definitely be TP’d
TP is really the only clutch here, and it's a ability Thanos doesn't even use often offensively. Most of his feats with it are people attacking him with it and then him defending: not a lot where he takes the initiative.
@professorrespect: Controlling the planet and Thor IMO holds more weight than just a similar planet, Thor’s mind is better than random fodder, he’s resisted planetary telepaths alone.
Either way, Gladiator can resist a high tier Telepath, impressive and he’s done it twice, Thanos made it look easy.
Again with Thanos’s feats, it isn’t suspect at all, Xemmu has successfully TP’d the Hulk, Thanos can TP Moondragon, has TP’d Mantis, taken over Galactus doing the most etc; nothings is suspect at all, so you can’t disregard canon feats everytime we discuss because you don’t like it; it doesn’t work that way.
Also what further supports this, is his run where he merged his permanent self in the regulator arc, which is canon and now absorbed into his base form.
He can definitely TP her.
His immortality will stop her from putting him down, also your disregarding Thanos’s own blasts that have one shot herald tier characters, freeze guns, his TP and more; you haven’t even shown one TP resistance feat worth mentioning.
Thanos always has gadgets and stuff with him, he can definitely use his freeze gun again.
Her magic isn’t doing much, he’s common to magic, also even characters like Phyla-Vell said she was helpless to his forms of energies, and that she’s never been so helpless.
The run was in the same arc, unless you show me scans of it being non canon, it’s canon as far as I’m aware.
Thanos has one of the strongest minds to the point where’s its pointless TP’ing a non-weakened Thanos, however it’s so plot for him to always use TP, yet he’s used it multiples times, and he can do it casually within his power sets; and he’s done it against top tier Telepaths.
He also has such a wide variety of a power set, and is such a powerful character, that when he does appear, he doesn’t always show case the same feats; however he can definitely TP her and there is nothing to suggest otherwise...
@kingant27: @professorrespect:
^^
There seem to be a few points of contention between you two and I thought I might be able to add some insight.
The first thing is time manipulation. Thanos does indeed have a "freeze gun" that allows him to create localised temporal stasis fields around a target he shoots with it. Basically it freezes them in time. The issue here is whether or not this counters Morgan's own time manipulation. From what I've seen of this weapon, I'd say no. Sure, Thanos can shoot Morgan with it and freeze her in time assuming he hits her. But that's not the issue you're debating. We have never (to my knowledge) seen Thanos use this weapon defensively - like turning it on himself to somehow unfreeze him from a time stop. And even if we had, the fact that Morgan actually manipulates time itself (and does so casually), halting it's flow entirely makes the likelihood of this hypothetical tactic succeeding, dubious at best. She CAN freeze an opponent in time theoretically (and may have done so before) however, she more often simply stops time itself and then acts. This also indicates a certain level of immunity to time manipulation and she has been seen to act outside of time before despite everyone else being frozen. Whether this is because she is straight up resistant/immune or whether she simply uses her magic to protect herself from her own spell is up for debate however, the fact remain s that she has shown some level of immunity to time manipulation herself - unlike Thanos. Moreover, the obvious argument here is that if Morgan stops time and immobilises Thanos, he would be unable to use his "freeze gun" anyway since he'd already be frozen himself. The same could be true for Morgan being hit by Thanos' freeze gun, but it is debatable whether or not she would be able to escape or even straight up no-sell the attack due to her own immunity/resistance to time manipulation. Its speculation unless someone can produce a feat to indicate one way or the other but we know that Thanos is not immune to a time stop as there's never been any evidence to support it and he's been affected by lesser time manipulation before.
The second point - and from what I've read, the more contentious one - is the idea of Thanos being able to TP Morgan. To get a anything like a proper answer to this requires a little explanation of the feats and arguments being used to support and deny this claim.
For one thing, not all TP is the same. TP is capable of many different effects and those who showcase resistance to TP in one way are often NOT resistant in another. Also, when it comes to defending against TP, being aware of the fact you're being influenced by it is a massive part of being able to defend against it. VERY FEW individual beings are passively resistant to all forms of TP. Most characters who showcase resistance often need to be aware they're being TP'd in the first place in order to resist. Even beings like Odin and Galactus suffer from this limitation - as was seen when they were in a telepathic battle with each other during Might Thor #5.
For example, Gladiator managing to recognise the flaws in a telepathic illusion does not indicate he could fend off mental domination from a Phoenix Force Host. It merely allowed him to recognise the fact that what he was seeing wasn't real (even though he was still seeing it). When it came to actually breaking free of the illusion however, he needed help as he had no means to do it on his own due to possessing no ability as a telepath himself. Its also worth noting that some telepathic techniques (like certain illusions) can be broken just by someone seeing them for what they are - some, but not all.
In any case, generally, the effects of telepathy can be broken down into a few separate categories. Empathy, illusions, influencing, mind penetration, domination, control, psychic attacks and mental defences. Empathy works directly with emotion and is often one of the hardest to combat or defend against. This is largely due to it not actually affecting conscious thought directly and usually just minimising or maximising existing emotions or subtly introducing new ones. For example, this kind of thing actually works on the Hulk almost every time. He's angry all the time as it is. Making him MORE angry isn't hard. Calming him down isn't always as easy or successful because of the sheer amount and strength of his rage, but it can usually be done, provided it's in a subtle way.
Influencing is kind of similar to empathy only it deals with thoughts rather than feelings. It is also harder to fight off because it is, almost by definition, a subtle effect. Examples might be encouraging invasive thoughts in someone who is already worried or depressed or taking advantage of someone who is in a particular state of mind and pushing that further. It could also be used to change someone's thoughts by nudging their thought processes in a particular direction or introducing a "stray thought" into their mind and then letting their own conscious mind do the rest. Its also great for breaking concentration or introducing doubt into someone who's previously been supremely confident etc.
Illusions however are a different ballgame entirely and its here I want to make a few points. Illusions are, depending on the skill of the telepath, the best way to get around telepathic resistance but are also the most reliant on the victim not being aware of them. As such, the creation of an illusion usually isn't noticed by the victim. However, once a victim realises they are seeing an illusion, the jig is up so to speak and even if the victim can't fight against it, they are no longer being fooled. This opens the door to beings who ARE resistant and who CAN fight back to either see through/break out of the illusion, drive the telepathy out of their mind or fight back with their own telepathy (assuming they possess the ability). Even when they can't get out of the illusion themselves, often just being aware what they are seeing isn't real leaves them able to act in a way that prevents the telepathy from manipulating them as they originally intended to - something we saw with Gladiator.
Mind penetration is simply the act of getting into another being's mind. This is unusually only an issue when it comes to using it on other telepaths or beings with their own mental blocks/defences to prevent people entering their mind and/or repel psychic attacks. Occasionally however, it can be resisted if the attempt to get into someone's mind and/or read their thoughts is an overt one or if they are trying to delve deeply into someone's mind. In these cases, anyone with appropriate levels of resistance or their own TP can fight this technique.
Then there's domination which is exactly what it sounds like. Dominating the mind of another. This is the kind of thing where resistances are most prevalent and most likely to be triggered. With other TP techniques, a character's defences/resistances might not be triggered (like if they don't know they're being TP'd) but in the case of telepathic domination, there's really no way to hide that from the victim unless the assault is so fast and so overwhelming that they don't have time to recognise whats happening, let alone react. But dominating someone's mind usually involves taking over their thoughts and consciousness entirely or at the very least, subjecting it to any number of other telepathic effects by overpowering any abilities they might have to fight back. This is the kind of TP that is most commonly resisted.
Control may seem similar but there's essentially 2 "versions". The first is mental control - which may or may not result from mental domination - and involves utterly, well, controlling a person's thoughts and potentially even feelings against their will. This can happen without a character's knowledge too though. The second kind if control though, is not actually centered around their "mind" or "consciousness" persay, but instead revolves around controlling them physically via manipulating their brain unconsciously. We see this surprisingly often where someone is still capable of consciously thinking and in some cases even communicating as they normally would, but their actions are being controlled by someone else [The telepath]. In fact, this is almost more common than outright dominating someone's mind completely and controlling them mentally AND physically to the point where even their thoughts are not their own and they are reduced to basically mindless slaves. Simply controlling someone's body but not their consciousness seems to often provide something of a loophole against beings who would usually be able to resist outright mental domination.
Finally there's outright psychic attacks and these can come in a number of forms. There's things like using someone's thoughts and fears against them (although that relies on being able to access those thoughts), there's psychic attacks that simply aim to damage or even destroy someone's mind, send them catatonic and so on based on raw mental assaults with psychic energy. Then finally there's things like psi-blasts which are basically just advanced versions of what I just mentioned but are capable of manifesting in the physical plane if they are used by potent enough telepaths.
Mental defences are again, pretty much what it says on the can but they also come in a variety of different types. Being able to actively resist TP by way of your own telepathic abilities, overwhelming emotion ruling your thoughts, psionic force-fields, divine, cosmic or otherwise vast or incomprehensible consciousnesses, incredibly strong willpower and even intense mental training can all result in mental defences of varying degrees but most of these only work on certain types of TP, not all.
I know this was a long winded explanation of a lot of things that I'm sure you both are mostly, if not entirely familiar with but it seemed important to go over this because I've yet to see any of these distinctions be made when discussing telepathy in general and how it has been used in the feats you're mentioning. And HOW the TP is used makes a massive difference.
Now, with that in mind, moving onto the feats. When Moondragon "controls a planet", the scale is relevant. A few million people is nothing compared to Earth. Technically, it may have been a "planet's worth" of beings by the standard of it being the entire population of said planet, but that standard, when scaled to Earth (which, like it or not, is usually the standard of measurement when referring to planetary scale feats), only places the feat at large city level. So claiming it's a planetary feat just based off of the planet itself rather than the population is a tad disingenuous. Controlling Thor on the other hand is, at face value, more impressive. The issue comes in when we consider HOW she did it. While a case could be made that Moondragon used empathy to help sway Thor's feelings on certain matters, she mainly manipulated him through the use of illusions. She was never in direct control of him at any point. In fact, as soon as he worked out he was under illusions and being manipulated in any way, he immediately broke out of her influence with no noticeable effort. This makes sense because Thor has a history of being fooled by illusions and manipulation but also has a history of being incredibly resilient to any kind of direct control or mental domination. For example, Emma Frost (already and Omega Level Telepath) who was amped further by at least 1/5 of the Phoenix Force tried to use telepathy directly on Thor and merely entering his mind cause her sever psychic backlash and forced her into her diamond form to protect herself as a result.
On the subject of the Hulk, he's a tricky one. Hulk's resistances are almost entirely due to the great rage that dominates his mind making it incredibly difficult to influence him directly in any way. More often than not, that amount of rage acrually overwhelms telepaths trying to TP him directly. Things get further complicated by his mass of different conscious and unconscious personalities and their differing levels of intelligence. Speaking of which, some of his less intelligent forms also pose and issue telepathically because there's not a lot of "mind" there to influence and in almost all cases, if Hulk realises that he's being manipulated or mentally attacked, it makes him angrier which only further exasperates the main issue telepaths have with affecting him in the first place - the overwhelming rage. So affecting Hulk's conscious mind in any way is very difficult even for incredibly powerful telepaths. Thanos however, managed to bypass this issue by only taking over Hulk's body telepathically and leaving his conscious mind alone - aside from usurping control of his actions. This method of affecting Hulk with telepathy without actually trying to dominate or control his conscious mind directly has worked on Hulk more than once in the past too. For example, Jean Grey managed to suppress the Banner persona of the Hulk when he fought Onslaught by entering Hulk's subconscious mind and affecting a persona that was not consciously active at the time.
Thanos taking over Galactus is another instance of sounding great on the surface but not so much in context. First, Thanos had help from Moondragon from memory (though I could be mistaken on this - not that it matters anyway). Second, this only worked until Galactus realised what was happening and that he was being manipulated and when that happened, he easily pushed Thanos out of his mind despite the Titan giving up any semblance of subtlty and attampting an all out takeover/domination if Galan. In fact, Thanos was forced to break the psychic link with Galactus after Galan fought him off in order to avoid Galactus' wrath and prevent himself from getting TP'd in return.
So the question of whether Thanos can TP Morgan is kinda up in the air. Could he use TP on her?? Absolutely. Would it be successful?? Maybe. But could he defeat her with it?? Frankly that seems very unlikely. Morgan being an utter master of the Astral Plane (the source of all psychic energy) and the volume of feats she has with mind magic and telepathy not just in general, but across dimensions and time itself, seems to indicate that she could deal with Thanos' TP. No illusion he creates or mental influence he asserts could fool her as she has innumerable feats of this kind herself that far outstrip anything Thanos has shown. She is capable of separating her soul and/or her astral form from her body so taking over her physical form is useless even if he could do it. To my knowledge no-one and nothing has ever dominated her mind and we've never seen Thanos use Psi-blasts or anything similar. So the idea that he could defeat her telepathically just isn't viable considering her own feats of mind magic, illusions and mental manipulation - let alone soul manipulation which is something Thanos has never - to my knowledge - shown resistance to - although I could be mistaken on this. The flip side to this however is that despite all her impressive feats, Morgan isn't going to be defeating Thanos with mind effects either- whether it's telepathy, mind magic or any other kind of mental manipulation. His will is too strong and his fe a ts of resistance are too good.
Discussing Thanos as a magic user is inconsequential to the point of being completely irrelevant when stacking up against a magic user as powerful as Morgan. Him "cursing" Deadpool with immortality because he was jealous that Mistress Death had a thing for the Merc With a Mouth and wanted to prevent Wade feom ever entering her realm is his only significant feat and it's not even confirmed if that was magic or not. It may very well have been due to his connections with Death that allowed him to ban Deadpool from her realm since, again, it's never specified how he "curses" Wade in the first place. It seems like more of a plot powered feat foe the same of story than anything else but people hear the word "curse" and just assume magic.
Thanos durability was never in question. He is, by all standards of measurement, absurdly durable. Add onto that his inability to be truly killed by conventional means and he's one of the most durable characters in Marvel - relevant to his tier of power. But to claim that "Morgan's magic isn't doing much to him" is not really accurate. Thanos had no real feats of resistance to magic outside of generic energy blasts. Even his fabled reality warping resistance is contextual based on travelling through multiple dimensions where the led of reality are different and he was warped just fine - it literally shows him being warped in different ways on panel. However, his will is so insanely strong that he was able to hold onto his sense of self and use that as an anchor throughout the journey and come out the other side (back into Earth's dimension where reality is "normal again) ok. But relating raw durability and willpower to being able to tank spells and magical hax effects that ordinarily ignore durability or where such things are irrelevant - like being magically bound, transmuted to stone, BFRed, having his soul ripped from him or being incapacitated by a time stop - is simply is not accurate.
While I can't speak directly to whether the story in quetion nis non-canon or not, if it's a tie in to a non-canon arc, then it too is non-canon. If it is not a direct tie in or is a standalone story then it is canon. I mean it's pretty simple either way.
Thanos using energy attacks or physical assaults aren't really a factor either when up against magic users like Morgan. She's got too many options that transcend such basic and direct tactics.
As for Thanos merging with himself, feats of his alternate self are not directly applicable to his main continuity self however, if he has better feats in his main continuity version then it's a moot point and even if not, his main continuity self should be capable of those feats now anyway having merged with the version of himself that achieved said feats in the first place.
When it comes to gadgets and the like, Thanos is not Lobo. He's not Batman. He doesn't carry a bottomless satchel or utiliry belt around with him packed ro the brim with every gadget, weapon and/or piece of tech he's ever used or might ever need - and his armour/suit doesn't exactly have many pockets. He barely ever has any gear on him to the extent of extra weapons and the like unless he's fighting on or near one of his bases/ships/etc where he has his various tech on hand. The only other times he's shown to have access to the majority of his gear is when he's specifically prepared for a particular fight and brings extra tech with him as a result. His freeze gun is one such item of technology which he does not carry with him at all times. As such, it does not count as standard gear unless we're willing to give it to him in this battle specifically for the sake of it or by placing Thanos in a non-neutral battlefield where he has access to all his tech on queue - either if which, is against the rules of the battle forum unless it's specified in the OP as far as I'm aware.
In the end, I'd wager that while Thanos holds the advantage in every physical sense and likely in raw power too (although it's hard to measure exactly what constitutes raw power for a magic user like Morgan) AND he'd almost certainly win any kind of direct confrontation shrugging off things like magical blasts, thr elements manipulated against him and other such direct attacks - the fact is, from what's been showcased by both combatants, Morgan does have a number of hax abilities that Thanos doesn't really have an answer for outside of obscure, rarely used tech that may or may not help him. She won't be able to put him down permanently due to his immortality granted by Mistress Death herself, but she CAN defeat or incapacitate him with these abilities if used correctly. His only hope is telepathy but, as I already mentioned, considering her own feats of mind magic to match the few feats of telepathy Thanos has - despite how impressibe they are - yheres not wnough there to say he could difinitively win with this strategy.
Anyway, hope that was helpful.
@tenebrous_umbra: Good write up, I agree with most of it. I wouldn't say Thanos could win a majority given how he doesn't have anything to defend against magic or whatnot but the case is presented a lot more clearer with yourself.
I can see the bias is real here lol but Morgan could take Thanos down. Whoever said she couldn't take doom... LOL she has already, and she taught him magic?
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment