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#101 Posted by The Mighty Thor (7469 posts) - - Show Bio

thank you

#102 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

You're welcome

#103 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Forever says:
"This fight isn't worth this many pages. If there is prep Molecule Man can't lose but if there isn't prep Superman can't lose. That's all it boils down to. Nothing has ever been stated that Molecule Man walks around in a defensive state. If you were Molecule Man, wouldn't you change the construction of your body so you were like the Silver Surfer or Sentry and wouldn't need to worry about having shields or screens? But he hasnt."
That's all there is too it."

As I have said numerouse times, He DID change the construction of his body. Just because he doesn't Look "cool" doesnt mean he hasn't changed his contruction and no I wouldn't want to look like surfer or Sentry I would want to look like myself! Would you truly, in this world want, to have silver skin and fly around on a surfboard when you could do everything you wanted to and be just as invulnerable looking like yourself?

#104 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

I just realized that you might have been talking to me. Were you? I mean, I see my name in the quote, so I think you're talking to me, but the things mentioned were said by Forever, so are you talking to me or him? Regardless, saying what you think he should do, or what you would do, doesn't change the fact that that's not the case for the character and you still haven't said anything I haven't addressed already.
Post Edited:2007-06-06 23:13:57

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#105 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah dude, It all depends on whether or not there's prep time. If there is, Molecule wins. If not, Superman wins. Just leave it at that

#106 Posted by The Mighty Thor (7469 posts) - - Show Bio

to true

#107 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

Thank you Spidey

#108 Posted by The Mighty Thor (7469 posts) - - Show Bio

no prob

#109 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

:)

#110 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

WE can say we agree to disagree.

I still contend that in secret wars Molecule DID change his molecular structure and sited the example of when he walked into space without raising any forcefields. Him surviving in space unprotected means he is not flesh and blood human. and I repeat they did NOT show him raise any shields to do this. At no time do they show him alter himself back to "normal". Meaning that without prep time he can survive in space meaning that he is at least invulnerable enough to survive in a vaccuum with NO PREP TIME.

#111 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

What do you mean he had no prep time? Did he get taken into space unaware? No, he knew he was going into space. He easily could have changed himself so he could do it. You have not (because you can not) proved that he has autoshields or is physically changed at all times. In a previous post I said what you'd need to do to prove it. One example of him being in space when he knew he was going in space does not mean he has protection at all times. Feel free to disagree with me if you want to.

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#112 Posted by The Mighty Thor (7469 posts) - - Show Bio

bascially what matters is where they start

#113 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"What do you mean he had no prep time? Did he get taken into space unaware? No, he knew he was going into space. He easily could have changed himself so he could do it. You have not (because you can not) proved that he has autoshields or is physically changed at all times. In a previous post I said what you'd need to do to prove it. One example of him being in space when he *knew* he was going in space does not mean he has protection at all times. Feel free to disagree with me if you want to."

OK. They never "showed" him put up force field and wasn't that your litmus test that it was to be shown.

#114 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

No, it was that he verbally mentions that he's always protected(even in passing) and it's supported by multiple instances (though I probably would have settled for one). Did you even read what I wrote? Like Magneto or Doom, their automatic defenses are talked about and shown repeatedly. And again, him going into space (that you said he created and may have created so he could go into it without needing to alter himself) when he knew he was going there and being fine doesn't mean he's protected at all times. It means he was protected then, in an instance where he knew beforehand and has time to do something.

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#115 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

If Dr Strange were going into space or Magneto were going into space they would SHOW them erect a force field or at least show a protective aura around them. Not for Molecule man, he just walked out. Supermans mind is superhuman, but it still has to process the "go" and tell his body to accelerate and fly into Molecule man. Molecule Man's mind is also superhuman able to detect subtle changes in the universe and the goings on of beings far superior to superman. MOlecule man can also teleport or fold space to enter hyperspace and travel a whole lot faster than light speed. Why do you assume that supermans mind would transmit to his body quicker than molecule mans. I think molecule mans mind is infinitely more developed than supermans and would therefore transfer information faster meaning he would react faster than superman.

#116 Posted by The Mighty Thor (7469 posts) - - Show Bio

guys where is everyone its like were the last ones here

#117 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

Valkaad says:

"If Dr Strange were going into space or Magneto were going into space they would SHOW them erect a force field or at least show a protective aura around them. Not for Molecule man, he just walked out. Supermans mind is superhuman, but it still has to process the "go" and tell his body to accelerate and fly into Molecule man. Molecule Man's mind is also superhuman able to detect subtle changes in the universe and the goings on of beings far superior to superman. MOlecule man can also teleport or fold space to enter hyperspace and travel a whole lot faster than light speed. Why do you assume that supermans mind would transmit to his body quicker than molecule mans. I think molecule mans mind is infinitely more developed than supermans and would therefore transfer information faster meaning he would react faster than superman."

Not necessarily. I've seen both Magneto and Strange both with and without auras when in hostile environments (including space), but even if that were true, him not putting up a shield does not mean he didn't alter his body (like you've been saying) beforehand. And again, you said he made that space, couldn't he have made it any way he wanted? You still haven't been able to provide any proof of his automatic defenses, just that he's capable of creating defenses, which I'm not contesting. Why do I assume Superman's mind works faster? Because everything about him works faster. Everything about him is "super". Not only that, but his cognitive processes and reaction times have been shown many times to be FAR above that of humans. Examples include him fighting others faster than they can react, traveling across continents (and the world) and back before someone else could comprehend it, reading entire libraries near instantly, etc, etc. The ability my argument relies upon has been proven time and time again. Yours has not. Molecule Man's mind may be more developed in allowing him to know things, but I've seen nothing that puts his processing speed or reactions above Superman's.

Moderator
#118 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Valkaad says:
" The ability my argument relies upon has been proven time and time again. Yours has not. Molecule Man's mind *may* be more developed in allowing him to know things, but I've seen nothing that puts his processing speed or reactions above Superman's. "

Wrong

When molecule man is fighting the beyonder he makes the statement that everyone watching them fight cannot appreciate the scope of the battle because they cannot perceive the "Billions of feints, thrusts and parrys per second". He is performing Billions of actions per second, fighting the beyonder, and still has time to think "But it still must look pretty cool from down there". To perform billions of actions per second your mind has to be able to process the information and react to it at that speed. Now supermans mind is fast but not that fast. So again speed is not an issue for molecule man

#119 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

Valkaad says:

"WrongWhen molecule man is fighting the beyonder he makes the statement that everyone watching them fight cannot appreciate the scope of the battle because they cannot perceive the "Billions of feints, thrusts and parrys per second". He is performing Billions of actions per second, fighting the beyonder, and still has time to think "But it still must look pretty cool from down there". To perform billions of actions per second your mind has to be able to process the information and react to it at that speed. Now supermans mind is fast but not that fast. So again speed is not an issue for molecule man."

I've said "nothing I've seen". I didn't know that. If you'd said that at the very beginning, we wouldn't have gone on this long. That's the kind of example that you should have used when I said that Superman could move faster than he could react. I still think Superman is faster, going off not only the feats that he's done in themselves, but the regularity of them compared to Molecule Man's one time thing, but I'm no longer convinced that it's enough of an advantage for a speed blitz to work unless they were close, say in the same room, not randomly in a city like you guys have been saying.

Theeeeeennn again, he knew he was going to fight Beyonder (am I right?) so he could have altered himself to be able to stand up to him. You've already said that he altered himself physically to survive for that battle, so why not mentally as well?

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#120 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Valkaad says:
" Wrong When molecule man is fighting the beyonder he makes the statement that everyone watching them fight cannot appreciate the scope of the battle because they cannot perceive the "Billions of feints, thrusts and parrys per second". He is performing Billions of actions per second, fighting the beyonder, and still has time to think "But it still must look pretty cool from down there". To perform billions of actions per second your mind has to be able to process the information and react to it at that speed. Now supermans mind is fast but not that fast. So again speed is not an issue for molecule man."
I've said "nothing I've seen". I didn't know that. If you'd said that at the very beginning, we wouldn't have gone on this long. That's the kind of example that you should have used when I said that Superman could move faster than he could react. I still think Superman is faster, going off not only the feats that he's done in themselves, but the regularity of them compared to Molecule Man's one time thing, but I'm no longer convinced that it's enough of an advantage for a speed blitz to work unless they were close, say in the same room, not randomly in a city like you guys have been saying. Theeeeeennn again, he knew he was going to fight Beyonder (am I right?) so he could have altered himself to be able to stand up to him. You've already said that he altered himself physically to survive for that battle, so why not mentally as well? "

They never "showed" him change himself back. To be honest they never really showed him alter himself either. I just assumed that to survive all that power he had to alter himself

#121 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

Valkaad says:

"They never "showed" him change himself back."

We keep coming back around to that sentence right there. I've already said why it doesn't equate to him having automatic defenses.
Post Edited:2007-06-07 00:35:32

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#122 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

Valkaad says:

"Buckshot says:
"Valkaad says:
" Wrong When molecule man is fighting the beyonder he makes the statement that everyone watching them fight cannot appreciate the scope of the battle because they cannot perceive the "Billions of feints, thrusts and parrys per second". He is performing Billions of actions per second, fighting the beyonder, and still has time to think "But it still must look pretty cool from down there". To perform billions of actions per second your mind has to be able to process the information and react to it at that speed. Now supermans mind is fast but not that fast. So again speed is not an issue for molecule man."
I've said "nothing I've seen". I didn't know that. If you'd said that at the very beginning, we wouldn't have gone on this long. That's the kind of example that you should have used when I said that Superman could move faster than he could react. I still think Superman is faster, going off not only the feats that he's done in themselves, but the regularity of them compared to Molecule Man's one time thing, but I'm no longer convinced that it's enough of an advantage for a speed blitz to work unless they were close, say in the same room, not randomly in a city like you guys have been saying. Theeeeeennn again, he knew he was going to fight Beyonder (am I right?) so he could have altered himself to be able to stand up to him. You've already said that he altered himself physically to survive for that battle, so why not mentally as well? "
To be honest they never really showed him alter himself either. I just assumed that to survive all that power he had to alter himself "

Did you not see the last part? They never showed him alter himself either. He just went into battle like I said I ASSUMED he had changed because your obviously not withstanding that kind of onslaught as a normal man. I thought after my last post we had come to an understanding that Molecule Man can react and think as fast a superman and now you are relenting.

#123 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

Valkhaad has it. It goes to the Molecule

#124 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

Valkaad says:

" Did you not see the last part? They never showed him alter himself either. He just went into battle like I said I ASSUMED he had changed because your obviously not withstanding that kind of onslaught as a normal man. I thought after my last post we had come to an understanding that Molecule Man can react and think as fast a superman and now you are relenting. "

I think you were right to assume he altered himself(for that fight). He'd have to have changed himself because his powers didn't change his body when he got them. He got psionic powers (the power to control matter), he didn't become indestructible or anything, so he'd have to have changed himself to survive that fight. If he wasn't indestructible originally, but he was for that fight, that means he had to have been altered(by his own powers) in some way, correct? Now, if he could change his body for that, what says that he didn't alter his mind as well? If he could become physically able, couldn't he become mentally quicker? However, I haven't seen that kind of speed anywhere else. Any examples of faster than light reaction times outside of that instance?
Post Edited:2007-06-09 01:23:53

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#125 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

That's true, but Valkhaad said earlier that Molecule man didn't change his body structure and he kept it that way so...

#126 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

But I'm gonna stay Neutral

#127 Posted by LegendaryKYJ (1334 posts) - - Show Bio

131 days, 22 hours, and 1 minute later... I've read every response in this thread. Superman supposedly moving at faster then light is funny. However, I would like to point out that the speed of thought doesn't have a limit, well, it does, but it's limited to the individuals capabilities. Molecule Man isn't the average joe, he's an upper tier cosmic being that requires a degree of control to use his power. Basically, suggesting Superman could move faster then the thought of an near-omnipotent individual is laughable. Why all this talk of shields? What Molecule Man wants is done, Superman isn't immune to being manipulated on a sub-atomic level. The fight might as well be called "Superman Vs. Spectre/Mr. Mxyptlyk/Phoenix/Celestials/Eternity/Living Tribunal/Galactus/A living Cosmic Cube" The distance placed between the two shouldn't be a factor either. Batman dodged a blitz from Supes when big blue was being controlled by Poison Ivy, and the dodge was from behind! Anyway, from what I've read so far, they are placed in a city or an arena face to face and someone yells "Go," Superman charges at MM and defeats him. That sounds kind of biased considering Superman already knows what to do but MM doesn't. It sounds like the confrontation requires MM to stand around without a thought in his head while Superman rushes at him, blood lusted and convinced he's going to snap MM's neck... that's called "prep time." Furthermore, you have to THINK about what you want to do before you execute your next action. While Supermans first thought (after his brain registers all of the sights and sounds of the environment) would be to blitz, Molecule Mans would be either attack or defense; and if he doesn't want to be touched, I guarantee he won't be.
Post Edited:2007-10-17 11:11:27
Post Edited:2007-10-18 05:54:15

#128 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

MM wins. Buck your being Ironmanish again. But don't stop.

#129 Posted by Legendary Bio Vishanti (3333 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry to bump, but Molecule Man wins.

#130 Posted by acewasp23 (6087 posts) - - Show Bio

Legendary Bio Vishanti says:

"Sorry to bump, but Molecule Man wins."

LMAO what was the point of bumping this just to say that? i think we all know who wins this battle. lol

#131 Posted by Amazing Spider--Man (245 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate kids.

#132 Posted by Legendary Bio Vishanti (3333 posts) - - Show Bio

No, wait. What am I saying, Superman owns.

#133 Posted by acewasp23 (6087 posts) - - Show Bio

Amazing Spider--Man says:

"I hate kids."

that's funny i thought you hatted superman. lol

#134 Posted by Copy (8336 posts) - - Show Bio

Amazing Spider--Man says:

"I hate kids."

I hate you :)

#135 Posted by Amazing Spider--Man (245 posts) - - Show Bio

acewasp23 says:

"Amazing Spider--Man says:
"I hate kids."
that's funny i thought you hatted superman. lol "

Lol I hate Superman and kids. I think I hate them equally.

#136 Posted by Legendary Bio Vishanti (3333 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman kills MM.
Post Edited:2007-11-23 01:25:27

#137 Posted by Rdeegvainl (775 posts) - - Show Bio

sorry MM doesn't know who superman is, so supes just happens to not exist the moment he comes into contact with MM LOL

#138 Posted by Legendary Bio Vishanti (3333 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman flys at light speed and I doubt Molecule Man is 186,000 miles away.

#139 Posted by Rdeegvainl (775 posts) - - Show Bio

Legendary Bio Vishanti says:

"Superman flys at light speed and I doubt Molecule Man is 186,000 miles away."

nope, but Supes doesn't start at light speed, and his character wouldn't just kill someone else, especially when forum posters are telling him too.

#140 Posted by Kraven (517 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Molecule Man turn everything around Superman into Kryptonite.

And a side note: I notice that in all battles, Superman fans want to use his super speed as the "tie-breaker" when there is a question of overall power or strength. People say "Superman can move faster than he can react" but how many times has Superman been hit by a person with super strength but normal speed? Many, many, many times.

#141 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman wins, Buckshot already made an airtight case.

#142 Posted by gobstakid777 (1815 posts) - - Show Bio
@LegendaryKYJ said:
"

131 days, 22 hours, and 1 minute later... I've read every response in this thread. Superman supposedly moving at faster then light is funny. However, I would like to point out that the speed of thought doesn't have a limit, well, it does, but it's limited to the individuals capabilities. Molecule Man isn't the average joe, he's an upper tier cosmic being that requires a degree of control to use his power. Basically, suggesting Superman could move faster then the thought of an near-omnipotent individual is laughable. Why all this talk of shields? What Molecule Man wants is done, Superman isn't immune to being manipulated on a sub-atomic level. The fight might as well be called "Superman Vs. Spectre/Mr. Mxyptlyk/Phoenix/Celestials/Eternity/Living Tribunal/Galactus/A living Cosmic Cube" The distance placed between the two shouldn't be a factor either. Batman dodged a blitz from Supes when big blue was being controlled by Poison Ivy, and the dodge was from behind! Anyway, from what I've read so far, they are placed in a city or an arena face to face and someone yells "Go," Superman charges at MM and defeats him. That sounds kind of biased considering Superman already knows what to do but MM doesn't. It sounds like the confrontation requires MM to stand around without a thought in his head while Superman rushes at him, blood lusted and convinced he's going to snap MM's neck... that's called "prep time." Furthermore, you have to THINK about what you want to do before you execute your next action. While Supermans first thought (after his brain registers all of the sights and sounds of the environment) would be to blitz, Molecule Mans would be either attack or defense; and if he doesn't want to be touched, I guarantee he won't be.
Post Edited:2007-10-17 11:11:27
Post Edited:2007-10-18 05:54:15

"
This says it perfectly.mm ftw
#143 Posted by BIackFlash (1909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:
"

Superman.

"
#144 Posted by gobstakid777 (1815 posts) - - Show Bio
@BIackFlash said:
" @Buckshot said:
"

Superman.

"
"
could not have said it better myself
#145 Edited by TruePwnge (2764 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marrduke said:
"

Molecule Man (post Secret Wars vol.1) (before he could only control inorganic molecules, but now he has complete control over all molecules)is probbaly the most powerfull being in the universe (on scale, if not high higher than Proteus, Galactus, and pretty much anyone with reality altering/energy manipulation/elemental mutaion powers). HE would sense SuperMan by his "cosmic awareness" and could pull Sup's apart on a molecular level and r-arange him into apile of rocks. He's rediculously powerfull. (which is probably why he's not around anymore...)

-Sup's doesn't stand a chance.......

"
Molecule Man blinks, game over
 
  @King Hyperion said:

" StrongestOneThereIs said:

"claws said:
"Kentaxx said:
"claws said:
"molecule man curbstomp"
Fanboy, did you read the description, its the same Molecule Man that got ripped by Wolverine
"

are u kidding me? this dude controls every molecules so supes aint gonna be able to even get near him and isnt sussposed to be the secret wars one?"
He had no control over living molecules at the time. Doom only showed him that he could do more than just move things.

Again, MM during Secret Wars.
"
Yes and I believe everyone is TRYING to tell you that it does not matter. All Wolverine did was make Molecule Man more powerful than that stupid little Cigar-Smoking Mutant bastard could have ever imagined. He did Molecule Man a favor by gutting him! This is The Molecule Man. This is what he is. Superman is nothing in comparison to him.

He is described as being one of the two most powerful beings in existence alongside Pre-Retcon Beyonder:
When The Molecule Man comes to confront The Beyonder several of the most powerful entities in existence (Living Tribunal, Eternity, Master Order, Lord Chaos, The Gardener, The In-Betweener, Kronos, The One Above All Celestial, Mephisto and The Watcher) get the Hell out of his way. Oh and yes every cosmic being in this image did comply with Molecule Man's request. (I love how he acts so casual towards the High-End Cosmic Beings in this scene while they all freak out. It's just so funny)
Oh...and here is Molecule Man repairing all of the damage that was caused to The Multiverse by The (Pre-Retcon) Beyonder after throwing a fit.

Superman would never stand an Ice Cube's chance in Hell of winning this fight. Molecule Man CURBSTOMPS Superman and then follows up with a side dish of OVERKILL. "


Molecule Man stomp
#146 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio

Billions of Feints, Parries and Attacks per Second
Please note the speed described by The Beyonder.  Billions of Feints, Parries and Attacks per second.  Sounds "just a bit past light speed to me" (no sarcasm intended {clears throat}).
 
And, should we assume that when he was facing Molecule Man at full power, there battle was not beyond mortal comprehension?  I think it would be.
 
Therefor Molecule Man can deal with some one moving much, much, much, much faster than the speed of light!
 
Supes' Speed is irrelevant to this conflict.
 
Molecule Man Wins!
#147 Posted by xXSilowXx (120 posts) - - Show Bio
@BIackFlash said:
" @Buckshot said:
"

Superman.

"
"
#148 Edited by BatDance (2248 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 @Buckshot said:

"

Why would he? He doesn't know anything about Superman or kryptonite. He's going to create a mineral he knows nothing about to fight an enemy that he doesn't know is weak against said mineral?

"

 
 worst post ever
 
@The Mighty Thor said:
"

i still say molecule man

"
X 2 
and its a blowout
#149 Posted by Johnny_Nemesis (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

Why would someone make this fight...

#150 Posted by BatDance (2248 posts) - - Show Bio
@Johnny_Nemesis said:
" Why would someone make this fight... "
Superboy fan wankers come out with all kinds of crazy stuff