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#1 Edited by lordofthebrocean (657 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it Pre-Retcon Molecule Man ?

#3 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm.... Captain Atom is immune to molecular manipulation and has shown it before, so Molecule Man attacking him that way wouldn't work. Monarch is powered up version of Captain Atom, and he should still have the same immunity.
 
Molecule Man's power over molecules could be greater than Atom's (even though it wouldn't matter), but Atom has the vast superhuman physical attributes on his side. Simple KO. As for Monarch.... Well, the same thing could happen, or Monarch could essentially dump him in the Quantum Dimension with an energy blast, where the Quantum Radiation will slowly kill him. Or, dump him in an parallel universe with said energy blast.

#4 Edited by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: You think Pre-Retcon Molecule Man won't be able to affect Atom ?
#5 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch said:
" @Static Shock: You think Pre-Retcon Molecule Man won't be able to affect Atom ? "
Well, if Atom is immune to molecular attacks against himself, I don't see how Pre-Retcon Molecule Man would be able to do anything to him. The energy from the Quantum Field protects him from being attacked in that fashion.
#6 Posted by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: What about creating million tons of adamantium and binding them both ?
#7 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5470 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch said:
" @Static Shock: What about creating million tons of adamantium and binding them both ? "
Monarch destroys it with a thought. 
#8 Posted by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral: What about BFR ? I mean , if those guys are immune to molecular manipulation , it doesn't mean they win . PR MM can create something that would definitely hurt them . Or BFR them .
#9 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch said:
" @Static Shock: What about creating million tons of adamantium and binding them both ? "
Atom can manipulate atoms. He could possibly destabilize the atoms the metal, liquefying it, or transmute it into something else. Monarch could do the same.
 
@TheJuggernautpunch said:
" @CosmicSpiral: What about BFR ? I mean , if those guys are immune to molecular manipulation , it doesn't mean they win . PR MM can create something that would definitely hurt them . Or BFR them . "
Like what? Monarch has taken attacks from three Green Lanterns and three Supermen, and was left unharmed. Atom's Dilustel Skin can only be breached by X-Ionizer weapons. Physical attacks and energy attacks won't do it.
 
How does MM BFR them, if he can?
#10 Posted by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: I mean , they guy who is able to contend with PR Beyonder wouldn't be able to beat some DC cosmic characters ? Where's the logic ? PR MM was restoring Multiverse while talking to Beyonder . He can create black hole or some portal to BFR , i think .
#11 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch: Pre-Retcon Beyonder's power was absolute, like One-Above-All, if not more powerful. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man contended with him and restored the Multiverse because the Cosmic Cube was in his possession, IIRC. The OP never stated he had that artifact for the battle.
#12 Posted by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @TheJuggernautpunch: Pre-Retcon Beyonder's power was absolute, like One-Above-All, if not more powerful. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man contended with him and restored the Multiverse because the Cosmic Cube in his possession, IIRC. "
TOAA > PR Beyonder .
#13 Posted by TheBatman586 (6316 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch said:
" @Static Shock said:
" @TheJuggernautpunch: Pre-Retcon Beyonder's power was absolute, like One-Above-All, if not more powerful. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man contended with him and restored the Multiverse because the Cosmic Cube in his possession, IIRC. "
TOAA > PR Beyonder . "

Agreed.
#14 Edited by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: Anyway , I see no reason why MM can't createa black hole or some portal to BFR . What I was thinking if MM could create Ultimate Nullifier ... LOL .
#15 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch: I don't doubt that he could make a black hole. But, Monarch is also open to the same possibility. Not making a black hole, but dimension dumping him, I mean.
#16 Posted by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: Everything can happen , you know . I'm still going with MM here . As to me , he would win .
#17 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

Monarch. I've read up on him and I don't think MM could take him down.

#18 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio

pre recton mm would win here, as he was one of the most powerful beings in the entire mu that even abstracts had to show respect 

#19 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch said:
" @Static Shock said:
" @TheJuggernautpunch: Pre-Retcon Beyonder's power was absolute, like One-Above-All, if not more powerful. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man contended with him and restored the Multiverse because the Cosmic Cube in his possession, IIRC. "
TOAA > PR Beyonder . "
True
#20 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:
" pre recton mm would win here, as he was one of the most powerful beings in the entire mu that even abstracts had to show respect  "
I don't see how he'd win when both Atom and Monarch are immune to his powers.
#21 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @capall said:
" pre recton mm would win here, as he was one of the most powerful beings in the entire mu that even abstracts had to show respect  "
I don't see how he'd win when both Atom and Monarch are immune to his powers. "
my assumption for owen winning is that he would have greater control over molecules regardless where the battle takes place, i mean i know cap has created the universe and also destroyed it but wasn't that only in the quantum field which means he is not all power outside of this and from what i know it doesn't matter where the fight takes place since owen's powers were only limited by his own mental state rather than the which ever physical realm that he's in 
#22 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall: I wasn't going to say anything about the universe he made, because that wasn't what I was getting it. The universe feat was inside the Quantum Field, so yes, Atom couldn't duplicate the feat outside of it. The feat itself was only there to show his virtually limitless potential with his superhuman powers. Again, this isn't to say he could make a universe outside of the Field (don't see why he would want to, anyway) I conceded that he had greater control over molecules than Captain Atom/Monarch does, but I also stated that it wouldn't matter because any attempt to use those abilities wouldn't work on either of them.
 

 As you can see here, the first Monarch attempted to destroy all the heroes with a molecular attack, powerful enough to rend molecules down to nothingness. While it hurt everyone else, he didn't effect Captain Atom at all.
#23 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock:  
nice scan, well if indeed atom is completely immune to molecular manipulation even outside of the quantum field (any other physical realm) than i guess it would be a stalemate altho there is also a possibility that owen can manipulate his own molecular structures so that he can also enhance his own physical attributes to virtually limitless level as well, this is the only other possibility that owen can win via physical force if not by molecular manipulation, again this is only an hypothetical scenario not an actual feat 
#24 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @capall said:
" pre recton mm would win here, as he was one of the most powerful beings in the entire mu that even abstracts had to show respect  "
I don't see how he'd win when both Atom and Monarch are immune to his powers. "
When his power is above the source of Monarch's i'd believe it gives him a better range to effect him.
#25 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@geraldthesloth said:

" When his power is above the source of Monarch's i'd believe it gives him a better range to effect him. "

I doubt it. If Atom has shown immunity to molecular manipulation, there isn't a reason to think that anyone else would be able to affect him in the same sense.
#26 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: In you're evidence you're using Hank Hall, would you say his control over Molecular Manipulation is as good as Molecule Man's is post or pre retcon?
#27 Posted by The Dude. (902 posts) - - Show Bio

MM easily.  He doesn't just contol molecules, he controls reality.  He'd be able to manipulate CA or Monarch, and Monarch's suit wouln't be immune to MM's manipulations, I believe.
#28 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@geraldthesloth said:

" @Static Shock: In you're evidence you're using Hank Hall, would you say his control over Molecular Manipulation is as good as Molecule Man's is post or pre retcon? "

I don't think it would matter if he was. He couldn't effect Atom, either way. He didn't even try to resist the attack. It just didn't work on him, at all. If Atom was trying to work against the attack in a willpower-type fashion in the scan posted, maybe then I could concede that Molecule Man could effect Atom with his powers. But, that wasn't the case, and the attack was completely ineffective against him, nor did Atom even have to try to shrug it off. Thus, I can't accept Molecule Man being able to do the same thing against him in any form or fashion. Yeah, he's powerful. Doesn't mean that he could effect everyone or everything with his powers.
#29 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dude. said:
 He'd be able to manipulate CA or Monarch
No, he wouldn't.
#30 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5470 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dude. said:
" MM easily.  He doesn't just contol molecules, he controls reality.  He'd be able to manipulate CA or Monarch, and Monarch's suit wouln't be immune to MM's manipulations, I believe. "
Never saw MM control time. 
#31 Posted by The Dude. (902 posts) - - Show Bio
@geraldthesloth said:
" @Static Shock: In you're evidence you're using Hank Hall, would you say his control over Molecular Manipulation is as good as Molecule Man's is post or pre retcon? "


Hank Hall being compared to MM?? Is that what your asking?
#32 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dude. said:
" Hank Hall being compared to MM?? Is that what your asking? "
He's not being compared to him. Fact is, Atom was shown be immune to molecular manipulation against him because of his powers. Thus, Molecule Man isn't going to be able to do anything to Atom with his powers, directly.
#33 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: What issue is that scan from? wtf, my print went bold.
#34 Posted by The Dude. (902 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @The Dude. said:
" Hank Hall being compared to MM?? Is that what your asking? "
He's not being compared to him. Fact is, Atom was shown be immune to molecular manipulation against him because of his powers. Thus, Molecule Man isn't going to be able to do anything to Atom with his powers, directly. "

They are two very different characters and cannot seriously base it on the fact that Hank Hall as Monarch couldn't affect CA that same goes for MM.  MM in my opinion would eat HH alive.
#35 Posted by Red_Blade (2441 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dude. said:
" @Static Shock said:
" @The Dude. said:
" Hank Hall being compared to MM?? Is that what your asking? "
He's not being compared to him. Fact is, Atom was shown be immune to molecular manipulation against him because of his powers. Thus, Molecule Man isn't going to be able to do anything to Atom with his powers, directly. "
They are two very different characters and cannot seriously base it on the fact that Hank Hall as Monarch couldn't affect CA that same goes for MM.  MM in my opinion would eat HH alive. "
How is MM molecular manipulation any different then Hanks?
#36 Posted by The Dude. (902 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red_Blade said:
" @The Dude. said:
" @Static Shock said:
" @The Dude. said:
" Hank Hall being compared to MM?? Is that what your asking? "
He's not being compared to him. Fact is, Atom was shown be immune to molecular manipulation against him because of his powers. Thus, Molecule Man isn't going to be able to do anything to Atom with his powers, directly. "
They are two very different characters and cannot seriously base it on the fact that Hank Hall as Monarch couldn't affect CA that same goes for MM.  MM in my opinion would eat HH alive. "
How is MM molecular manipulation any different then Hanks? "

Since when was Hank a molecular manipulator?? He never had such powers.  He built a device that was more a less a bomb. How does that compare him to MM??
#37 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@geraldthesloth said:

" @Static Shock: What issue is that scan from? wtf, my print went bold. "

Armageddon 2001 #2
 
@The Dude.: The attack appeared as if it was coming from his hands, much less the neutron bomb, which was built to break down the molecules of all the matter within the city, reducing it to nothing. It was more than just a bomb, and it was made to attack everything on a molecular level. It looked as if the bomb also fueled his the ability to affect molecules there. Despite the fact that Molecule Man is more powerful than Hank Hall, Atom still showed an immunity to a molecular attack.
#38 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dude. said:
"They are two very different characters and cannot seriously base it on the fact that Hank Hall as Monarch couldn't affect CA that same goes for MM.  MM in my opinion would eat HH alive. "
They can be different, but the attack was relatively the same and would serve the same purpose as Molecule Man or the Sentry dispersing or breaking down anyone else's molecules. I don't doubt that Molecule Man could defeat Hank Hall, but that's a different situation from affecting Atom's molecules.
#39 Posted by rightprice (331 posts) - - Show Bio

How would Atom/Monarch handle being hit by an energy blast powerful enough to destroy billions of dimensions?  I believe Molecule Man used such an attack agains the Beyonder in Secret Wars 2.

#40 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@rightprice: You mean a blast that was amped up by the Cosmic Cube? I don't recall Molecule Man having that here. Also, if the blast was intended to affect molecules, it wouldn't work as I've stated already.
#41 Posted by rightprice (331 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @rightprice: You mean a blast that was amped up by the Cosmic Cube? I don't recall Molecule Man having that here. Also, if the blast was intended to affect molecules, it wouldn't work as I've stated already."

I wasn't aware that he had a Cosmic Cube in SW2.  I just remember seeing a scan in another thread of Molecule Man telling the Beyonder that he would stop him, then shooting him with a blast of energy from his hand, which the Beyonder then said was powerful enough to destroy billions of dimensions.  I really don't know if the blast was intended to affect molecules but my impression is that it was just a massively powerful blast of energy. 
#42 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@rightprice: Well, Monarch/Atom can absorb infinite amounts of energy. I'm pretty sure the attack could be absorbed, but Atom would have to regulate the speed at which he can absorb the blast to avoid Quantum jumping (the result of exceeding his absorption rate). 
 
To be honest, I'm sold on Molecule Man having many other ways of winning. But, because Atom has shown to be unaffected by molecular attacks, Molecule Man wouldn't be able to beat him that way.
#43 Posted by Push (1552 posts) - - Show Bio
@rightprice said:
"@Static Shock said:
" @rightprice: You mean a blast that was amped up by the Cosmic Cube? I don't recall Molecule Man having that here. Also, if the blast was intended to affect molecules, it wouldn't work as I've stated already."
I wasn't aware that he had a Cosmic Cube in SW2.  I just remember seeing a scan in another thread of Molecule Man telling the Beyonder that he would stop him, then shooting him with a blast of energy from his hand, which the Beyonder then said was powerful enough to destroy billions of dimensions.  I really don't know if the blast was intended to affect molecules but my impression is that it was just a massively powerful blast of energy.  "

MM & Beyonder were retconned into two halves of a cosmic cube being, something along those lines.  There was no cosmic cube during SW, other than at the end of SWII Omnibus, which showed the retcon and how they merged.
#44 Posted by SilverGalford (3265 posts) - - Show Bio

if it is pre retcon molecule man , he wins . if it is not , i think it  is stalemate.

#45 Posted by why so serious (1388 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheJuggernautpunch said:
" @Static Shock said:
" @TheJuggernautpunch: Pre-Retcon Beyonder's power was absolute, like One-Above-All, if not more powerful. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man contended with him and restored the Multiverse because the Cosmic Cube in his possession, IIRC. "
TOAA > PR Beyonder . "
TOAA = PR Beyonder
 
Do some research
#46 Posted by TheJuggernautpunch (6133 posts) - - Show Bio
@why so serious: TOAA > PR Beyonder .
#47 Posted by why so serious (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my God, Pr Beyonder in a sense WAS the TOAA

#48 Posted by King Saturn (224286 posts) - - Show Bio
Molecule Man should be able to win this...
#49 Posted by Dark Zoom (2333 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" Molecule Man should be able to win this... "
How? cap is immune to molecular control
#50 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark Zoom: He has other ways to win, even if he can't directly affect Atom's molecules.