Ock's use to fighting Spider-Man, and generally doing very well, often even winning. Peter of course has a power similar to precognition (spider-sense), and is far faster then Mr. X, so Mr. X's advantages aren't exactly something Ock hasn't dealt with before. Ock, however, has a HUGE range and strength advantage. Ock simply wont let Mr. X get close enough to him, eventually pinning him down with one of his arms, then beating him to death with the others.
#8
Posted by Esquire
(3188 posts)
- 5 months, 13 days ago
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I don't see how Mr X gets close enough to hurt him, honestly. If this is Ock when he actually had adamantium arms, he was handling Hulk with ease. So he should be able to one-shot X, and there's really not much for the swordsman to do about it. He can dodge for a while thanks to his precog, but even he has little chance to get close enough to actually hurt someone who routinely goes toe-to-toe with Spider-Man effectively.
Personally I don't see how beating hulk means much here... Hulk isn't as skilled or agile as mister x.
And Mr. X isn't nearly as agile as Spider-Man, who normal Ock has beaten. You are kindof correct in that it doesn't really matter if he has the adamantium or not, Ock wins either way.
True. But with very rare exception, the hero generally does have a winning record over his own rogues gallery. All things considered, Ock has a very good record against Peter. I also can't think of a single fight between the two in which one stomped the other. I think Ock's speed is actually being underestamed here. He's pretty much always been shown to keep up with Spider-Man, as well as deflect blast from Electro, Hobgoblin, etc.
Point is, Ock fights a character that's much faster then X, and generally does very well against him. X (as far as I know) doesn't have the strength to break out of Ocks grip if he gets tag (Peter barely does). So while Peter can soak up a few hits from Ock before going down, X really only needs to get tagged once. And since Ock pretty consistently tags Peter, he's not going to have trouble tagging X before X gets close enough to do any damage to him.
@jashro44: His adamantium arms were ridiculously long, though. Like, 50+ feet long. I'll try to find scans. But either way, he consistently tags Spider-Man, who's faster than Mister X, more durable, and also has pre-cog. So he should be able to tag X, imo, and X can't tank hits from someone with Hulk-level strength, or really even with Spider-Man level strength.
@jashro44: His adamantium arms were ridiculously long, though. Like, 50+ feet long. I'll try to find scans. But either way, he consistently tags Spider-Man, who's faster than Mister X, more durable, and also has pre-cog. So he should be able to tag X, imo, and X can't tank hits from someone with Hulk-level strength, or really even with Spider-Man level strength.
He has to tag Spider-Man because he's a Spider-Man villain. Spider-Man is way faster than Doc Ock and on the same note faster than his tentacles..and he has Spider-sense. Also Doc Ock's strength isn't Hulk level his feats aren't even comparable to Iron Man's.
He has to tag Spider-Man because he's a Spider-Man villain. Spider-Man is way faster than Doc Ock and on the same note faster than his tentacles..and he has Spider-sense. Also Doc Ock's strength isn't Hulk level his feats aren't even comparable to Iron Man's.
Meh, Ock has blocked bullets, iirc. He has solid reflexes. And him being a Spidey villain and hitting Peter is no different from Flash getting tagged by the Rogues. They shouldn't be able to do it, but they've been doing it for decades, so we have to accept that it's part of their characters. Same with Ock. He consistently tags Spidey, it's part of his character. Are you just going to eliminate almost every one of his feats because you think it's writer error?
@jashro44: His adamantium arms were ridiculously long, though. Like, 50+ feet long. I'll try to find scans. But either way, he consistently tags Spider-Man, who's faster than Mister X, more durable, and also has pre-cog. So he should be able to tag X, imo, and X can't tank hits from someone with Hulk-level strength, or really even with Spider-Man level strength.
He has to tag Spider-Man because he's a Spider-Man villain. Spider-Man is way faster than Doc Ock and on the same note faster than his tentacles..and he has Spider-sense. Also Doc Ock's strength isn't Hulk level his feats aren't even comparable to Iron Man's.
The OP is using adamantium Ock. I don't know how much stronger that version of Ock was suppose to be over normal Ock, but I do know that that Ock beat down Hulk. That suggest that his strength class (while not necessarily on par with Hulk), had to be at least Thing level, likely higher.
Dismissing Ock tagging Peter because he's a SM rogue is to pretty much dismiss every appearance Ock has ever been in (as well as pretty much every Spider-Man villain shown to be a threat to him, except I guess the symbiotes and Lizard) simply because their official Marvel Handbook stats have them listed as slower then Peter. Point is, if a character is shown consistently to be able to keep up with Spider-Man (as Ock has), then the evidence suggest they actually are suppose to be able to keep up with a character with Peter's level of speed & agility.
Regardless, this thread is about Ock verses a character that's slower and weaker then Peter.
So has Mister X, and other characters that are slower than him.
@Esquire said:
.And him being a Spidey villain and hitting Peter is no different from Flash getting tagged by the Rogues. They shouldn't be able to do it, but they've been doing it for decades, so we have to accept that it's part of their characters.
We don't have to accept anything. Not fast enough is not fast enough. Many of Spider-Man's enemies have to be allowed to hit Spider-Man because otherwise their fights would be one-sided and Marvel can't give all of his rogues super speed and reaction time because then they'd have a nonsensical amount of characters with the same stats.
@Esquire said:
Are you just going to eliminate almost every one of his feats because you think it's writer error?
There is a different between writers showing you a feat and disregarding another characters speed so that their story is interesting. I don't "think" it's a writer error..it is.
@Esquire said:
Also, when Ock had adamantium arms, he did this:
So...
This isn't consistent for Doc Ock no matter what his arms were made out of.
We don't have to accept anything. Not fast enough is not fast enough. Many of Spider-Man's enemies have to be allowed to hit Spider-Man because otherwise their fights would be one-sided and Marvel can't give all of his rogues super speed and reaction time because then they'd have a nonsensical amount of characters with the same stats. There is a different between writers showing you a feat and disregarding another characters speed so that their story is interesting. I don't "think" it's a writer error..it is.
So would you consider any of Doc Ock's feats valid, then? Or are they all PIS in your mind? (At least the physical ones?)
This isn't consistent for Doc Ock no matter what his arms were made out of.
This is pretty much the only time he used the Adamantium Harness, so actually it's pretty much totally consistent with what his Adamantium harness was capable of. Although in your defense, Hulk did manhandle him later in the story arc. Something about Hulk working better close in than at a distance, as I recall.
The OP is using adamantium Ock. I don't know how much stronger that version of Ock was suppose to be over normal Ock, but I do know that that Ock beat down Hulk. That suggest that his strength class (while not necessarily on par with Hulk), had to be at least Thing level, likely higher.
That version of Doc Ock doesn't have CONSISTENT feats that are comparable to that of the Thing. Not that strength class actually matters here. Doc Ock isn't a powerhouse. He's strong enough to hurt Mister X with minimal effort, everyone knows that the question is can he KO Mister X before he himself gets KO'd. Aside from the tentacles, Doc Ock is essentially a regular person. If X can get inside of his defense he should be able to KO him.
@Moonchilde said:
Dismissing Ock tagging Peter because he's a SM rogue is to pretty much dismiss every appearance Ock has ever been in (as well as pretty much every Spider-Man villain shown to be a threat to him, except I guess the symbiotes and Lizard) simply because their official Marvel Handbook stats have them listed as slower then Peter. Point is, if a character is shown consistently to be able to keep up with Spider-Man (as Ock has), then the evidence suggest they actually are suppose to be able to keep up with a character with Peter's level of speed & agility.
Speed is one of the most poorly written features of any character. Writers will show you that a character is consistently out of the speed range of some of the fastest characters in the Universe and then have showings that directly contradict it. Even if we pretend Doc Ock is fast enough to keep up with Spider-Man speed wise, that disregards Spider-sense. So Spider-Man is not only faster than Doc Ock he knows he's going to attack and how he's going to attack before he even does it...how he gets hitis simply bad writing. Spider-Man also has villains that don't have tentacles and aren't superhuman in speed or reaction time or anywhere near it who still are able to hit him...writers have no choice they can't spam abilities and they have to let his villains hit him otherwise they are useless, it's the worst part about having a character with super speed, they don't make even half of his villains match him on that level. Consistency doesn't always= truth. It's deeper than that.
@Moonchilde said:
Regardless, this thread is about Ock verses a character that's slower and weaker then Peter.
I'm not even suggesting that Mister X will win I just think the "Hulk level Strength" and "fast enough to keep up with Spider-Man arguments" are bogus.
So would you consider any of Doc Ock's feats valid, then? Or are they all PIS in your mind? (At least the physical ones?)
That depends on what you're calling a feat.
@Esquire said:
This is pretty much the only time he used the Adamantium Harness, so actually it's pretty much totally consistent with what his Adamantium harness was capable of. Although in your defense, Hulk did manhandle him later in the story arc. Something about Hulk working better close in than at a distance, as I recall.
What I'm saying is he doesn't have alot of feats with it. We're only going by one showing.
That's pretty much all I've got as far as the Adamantium harness goes. It was written to be much stronger than his normal levels, certainly.
I don't doubt that his adamantium tentacles were much stronger. I don't think they actually matter in this case considering that his regular tentacles would have sufficed for this fight. In other words it's not going to change the outcome. He was strong enough to seriously hurt Mister X regardless. If Mister X can't KO him before Otto gets a hold of him it's a wrap.
@Moonchilde: @Esquire: I agree the doctor has a good track record against spider-man and he is fast, and this defentily shows that otto is an effective combatant and capable of fighting fast and agile people. But the problem with the argument of dock ock keeping up with spider-man IMO is that a lot of other people have done it. Wolverine and taskmaster being two main examples of people who have in the past kept up with spider-man and tagged him. Granted I do believe both would lose a majority to spider-man and he is faster than them but in comparison Mister x pretty much wrecked them both (all though I do believe him punching wolverine out is pis I do except it as a showing of reflexes, skill and his powers since it was his first appearance). I do agree that spider-man is faster and more agile than mister x but I don't believe dock ock is as fast either. Ock could win I just don't think keeping up with spider-man is enough to say he wins personally.
That's pretty much all I've got as far as the Adamantium harness goes. It was written to be much stronger than his normal levels, certainly.
I don't doubt that his adamantium tentacles were much stronger. I don't think they actually matter in this case considering that his regular tentacles would have sufficed for this fight. In other words it's not going to change the outcome. He was strong enough to seriously hurt Mister X regardless. If Mister X can't KO him before Otto gets a hold of him it's a wrap.
I was merely taking issue with the part where you said he couldn't even compare to Iron Man physically.
@Vance Astro: Not that I read a lot of Iron Man, but I've never seen him manhandle the Hulk in such a fashion.
Her's never "manhandled" the Hulk because he doesn't have adamantium parts and because the Hulk doesn't weigh that much and can't easily break adamantium or really at all it makes sense that when Doc Ock was throwing him and slamming him he couldn't break free. In terms of outright beating the Hulk through physical strength, Iron Man has done that.
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