@Static Shock said:
" @Gambler: I agree.
@Buckshot said:
"I think it's something to consider. If he can defeat her even though she knows what he's going to do, then would that not apply to Mr. X too? It's not like RD was shown to fight in a way that negated that advantage of Shiva's (which would be specific to her and not Mr. X). He beat her in spite of it. You assume Mr. X's is more accurate but I'm not sure how you'd prove that since there's no comparison anywhere that I've read. Batgirl's level of move reading would be indistinguishable from Mr. X's given how she easily avoids attacks. It may even be better because of the deeper insight it gives her that Mr. X's does not. Further, her move reading would be useful against a berserk Wolverine because though his mind would be blank, his body would still be throwing off cues simply because he can't move without giving a warning since no motion is instant and without a preceding motion. I don't think you should assume mind reading is more accurate, but if you were to compare body reading and mind reading this way, it would appear that body reading would be more accurate."
It was an assumption based on the fact that X would be reading thoughts as opposed to Shiva reading the body. A lot of fighters think about what move to use next, you know? As far as reading body language, its accuracy is questionable because I've seen Shiva and Cassandra get tagged in spite of it. I even recall Nightwing being able to tag Cassandra multiple times when they fought in Outsiders. I've seen Shiva get tagged in other battles other than her fight with Richard, as well. Even Cassandra's ability to read wouldn't work on someone of Deathstroke's caliber, and she claimed that she wasn't able to read him because his body moves like a 'choir.' If able to read moves via telepathy, it would be more effective against him. But, since you put it that way, I shouldn't have made that assumption from the start. I think both methods of move reading have their flaws.
@Buckshot said:
"About these retcons, I don't think they automatically apply to everyone. The Batman statement is a specific (though I can think of a couple reasons for the difference in claims that explain it without changing anything: he could have gotten better. shiva masters about a dozen styles a year, Batman could get better too. he could be a master of them in comparison to most, but among the top tier where RD, BT, Shiva, etc are, he's not as proficient) one and doesn't meant that everyone was retconned. Batman may be street level, but he's a major character. What happens to him doesn't happen to everyone. And as I recall, events in RD's life were changed in his series, but I don't recall there being changes to his skill. And where do those claims come from by the way? The wording I remember of the 127 styles one was more like a statement that he'd learned at least 127. "
I wasn't saying that everyone was retconned, but I was saying that many characters may have been affected by the Crisis in some way, whether it be subtle changes or significant changes. The claim about Batman being skilled in all forms of combat, but not a master of any was stated while Batman was fighting ninjas from the League of Assassins. I can't remember the issue, however. The one about 127 styles was from Batgirl (the disc he gave her). I just thought he was a master of all of those fighting styles.
"
yes, Shiva and Batgirl get tagged despite their move reading. And Flash gets tagged despite his speed. Even if it weren't simply to make fights entertaining, it could be explained by Shiva's character. She's a brutal fighter and has no problem exchanging blows and letting damage fall on both sides. It's also in her character to test her opponents, allowing them to get away with more than they should while she's doing so. It should also be said that letting an opponent get hits in can be used to take advantage of their position, weariness or cockiness both in comics and in real life fights. I don't know the exact reason she gets hit, but I see many reasons for it that don't reduce her actual stated ability. As for the Deathstroke statement, I don't know if it can actually be said that telepathy would be more effective. Remember X's fight with Cho? He could read his thoughts, but didn't know what the plan was. He got a lot of info, but no clear message. Sounds pretty much the same as Batgirl reading Deathstroke and hearing a lot of voices but not being able to make out exactly what his body was saying, no? And if I recall correctly, Batgirl stayed in that fight with him for quite a while and didn't really get beat at the end of it. Could you refresh my memory?
Characters were affected, but was there something suggesting Richard Dragon's skills were limited? He gave her a disc, but I don't think it came with a claim of mastery that would specifically contradict the earlier statement. On that point though, I have a hard time with it as I could see both sides being true. I understand why a writer would portray Batman as a jack of all trades, knowing enough about everything to be deadly, but because of that, not focusing on one thing, but I also find it hard to believe that Batman is not a master of anything.
@Cochise said:
" @Buckshot said:
" @Cochise said:
"until Tiger or Dragon are shown using a style that foils telepaths, I would not give that to them."
Dragon has been shown fighting (and beating) someone that knows what their opponent is going to do. Good enough. (And that's without backup from a similarly skilled friend.) "
What were the details? Was that person telepathic? Because I think telepathy would be much, much harder to fool than generic body-reading. "
I think I went over that assumption already, and Shiva's body reading is far from generic.
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