Are we taking into account that Miles has beaten (parker) Spider-Man once already?
Peter appeared in a different universe, where everyone knew who he was. That confused him. On top of that he wasn't even serious about fighting Miles and on top of that he would have been able to kill Miles if he wanted, since he easily approached Miles at the beginning.
Kaine would annihilate Miles. It would be a rated M for Mature comic, because of all the blood and gore! Yeah, I love Kaine!
This is what I'm noticing Miles supporters doing..They're pretty much ignoring everything Kaine has done simply because A.)He has no spider sense yet that has barely held him down at all in his new series,B.)Miles can become "invisible" and has a venom sting,and C.)They pretty much ignore all of Kaine's experience compared to Miles. Kaine's got his experience of his past+what he does now as Scarlet Spider. Have we even seen what a blood lusted Miles is like? Because we have with Kaine and we know what happens when he gets that way
Um no. We acknowledge everything Kaine is capable of and what he's done. What Kaine supporters are refusing to acknowledge is the fact that Miles can do everything Kaine can do and THEN some. Kaine as spikes. Miles has venom touch. Kaine has to get close. Miles as the option of webbing the entire area then simply venom blasting the webbing. KO. Or Kaine will try and web Miles. Miles will electrocute the line. KO. Kaine can go invisible. Miles can go invisible. Except Miles can short out Kaine's suit. No more invisibility for Kaine. While they're both invisible Miles has spider sense on his side along with his speed. Kaine does not. That's just that. Kaine has strength. Miles has shown great durability and strength and seeing as how Kaine has to get close to hit Miles. There's another chance for venom blast. KO.
You apparently missed where I said let Miles go ahead and "KO" Kaine..all it'll do is piss Kaine off and have him transform into his monster self again and kick Miles's ass into next week. Bloodlusted Kaine is not the normal resist the monster Kaine..It's Kaine as in I'm going to tear you limb from limb. Tell me how many times has Miles killed anyone? Compare that to Kaine's track record. How many times has Miles faced Venom and Carnage? Kaine has. No you obviously don't acknowledge what Kaine can do because if you did then you'd understand how badly Miles loses. Miles going invisible doesn't mean anything..Kaine went invisible yet Beast was able to catch him. Miles is inexperienced in this and the only reason he "beat" Parker's spider-man was because Parker didn't take him seriously enough. By your logic I can say the Punisher beats Spider-man because he's been able to take advantage of when Peter doesn't take him seriously enough. Parker is known for making mistakes and underestimating his opponent which is why things like this happen
One upping an unprepared Spider-man is not the same as standing up to a bloodlusted Kaine. Lol all this talk about the venom blast..That's a poor showing for miles if he can only beat Kaine with one move whereas Kaine has multiple ways he can beat Miles. I can't remember if this is indeed Ana but this is Kaine kicking her ass
Spider-sense is overrated. Kaine is a far superior Spider to Miles because he makes up for what he lacks with skill. Heck I even enjoyed Peter without SS more because he had to rely more on his natural skills over getting the easy way out with his SS. I don't doubt that Miles is indeed a good spider-man..But Kaine is way out of his league
I can't see ANY version of this where Miles wins.
Venom won't do shit considering Kaines healing factor is MUCH stronger than anything we've seen on peter,
So upi ignore the fact a Venom Sting KOed Super Durable beings (I showed Proof.)
I would like to point out a few things. Everyone I can think of that Miles has one-shotted with the Venom touch has had a succeptability to it. Ultiame Venom has a weakness to electricity and Ult Rhine is a mechanized suit that can be short circuited. Mile's touch seems to be bio-electric in origin given what we've seen. Heck Peter even took 2 blasts from the Venom sting before going down. Kaine is far more tolerant to pain than Peter.
WRONG!
Omega Red laughs off Peters punches in both fights and is EXTREMELY DURABLE!
Or how about Scorpion.
Who also has more durability than Kane IMO.
Guys a beast!
What about Rhino? Well the Venom Sting works on machines the impressive part is works on NON MACHINES as well!
Go ahead friend, explain away the evidence it will not work on Kaine......
Kaine's also got far more experience (Miles does make mistakes consistently. We saw it in his fight with Pete when he almost hurt himself and in his fight with Prowler). His reaction feats are better as are his physical speed feats. Not to mention Miles also consistenly forgets to use his Venom sting. He admitted it in his fight with Venom that he frequently forgets to use it. In a fight when he's bloodlusted and lashing out what chance does heh ave of rememberng it then if he doesn't remember it when clear headed?
Peter was when Miles had no training by SHIELD or Spider Wioman. That was Miles EARLY stuff!
Kaine's skill isn't really his strongest suit. He's not a particually great fighter. His strength lies in the fact he is FAR more experienced in combat than Miles. Miles speed has yet to be proved equal to Kaine's who is infact faster and stronger than 616 Peter due to the Other.
I will say Kaine has more skills regardless due to on the street battles.
However Miles is trained and has a power set Kaine is totally unaware of and does not know of Miles Invisibility or Venom Sting. Both of those things got hits on Peter and Miles was holding back his Venom Stings and hits as well!
Miles's pain tolerance is not great. He was KO'd by that explosion during the fight with his uncle whereas Kaine has taken hits from all angles by the Rangers. Heck at one point he was mindraped, burnt, electrifed and thrown through a building at the same time. This only KO'd him for a few seconds.
Miles is not KOing Kaine with one touch with an attack that couldn't do the same to Peter and one he consistently seems to forget to use until plot calls for it.
So becuase Miles held back his Venom Sting on Peter that he wanted to talk too, he loses as Bloodlusted?! Listen to your reasoning, really do.
What explosion KOed him? In his fight with his uncle he got right back up to here his Uncles last words. What are you talking about?! I have the fight up above!
Almost everything you said buddy is not accurate at all. Look at the scans.
Not that Kaine has show to be so superior awesome in skill. He beat everyone as Classic Kaine due to stats, and as his current power set, beaten Wolverine with one IMO PIS shot to the heart. There is many scans of Wolverine tanking far more damage and reduce to skeleton features and stay in a fight!
Did you read the last two issues of SS? If not, the gist of it was Kaine was shown to be faster and stronger than Wolverine, yet he couldn't keep him down and admitted to almost breaking his hand on his skull and Logan did manage to also tag him, showing speed on Wolverine's part. The Other then possessed him and stabbed him with the stinger, tearing his heart in two pieces, completely severing the organ. Not to mention the stingers give off a potent enough venom that can drop a class 30 character. Wolverine's been shown that if his heart is completely destroyed or removed from his body, he will fall unconscious or in a temporary death state. His heart was blown up in his chest and he regenerated a couple of pages later and was up just fine. Sabretooth tore his heart out in Evolution and he ended up being chained to the roof of the jet, but came to and attacked him. Logan was dead in the newest issue and he regenerated his heart and the only thing off was Beast having to hit his chest which was most likely used for comedic effect. What Kaine showed was consistent. Just because Wolverine has had pieces of bone or his skull showing doesn't take away the consistency of what happened. He's been blown to a skeleton and just laid there btw.... The only time Logan has shown he can fight with his heart punctured is if the organ is still in tact, despite it possibly having a hole from say a bullet or a stab that didn't fully sever it. If you want to get into a Wolverine debate with me, be my guest.
So you think, but when at least 3 other hardcore Spider-Man fans, and arguably the 3 best Spider-Man debaters on CV in his many incarnations whether it be Ben Reilly, Kaine, Parker, Ultimate, 2099, etc etc don't it is favoritism?
Sorry, dude, no disrespect but I'm done here if this is the game you're going to play.
Well I am glad to hear Wolverine gets right back up then. That always struck me with such Dumbfoundness. As for Kaine being superior to Wolverine in all stats, we know this. Wolverine is not on average faster, stronger, or more agile than Spider Men people. He is more durable. In the Ultimate Universe Peter was like wise faster and stronger than Ultimate Wolverine by leagues.
Yes I do believe their is favoritism OR in Strider case as he proven knows VERY LITTLE of Miles feats and context. Its not a game, its a proven fact. I have a whole thread now on Ultimate Peters every worth while battle and feat, and only now people start thinking, oh wow, he is NOT INFERIOR to 616 Teenage Parker. Its a major trend on the Battle Forums.
@cadencev2: I was unaware of the Omega Red feat thats a new one on me.
I also never said the VS would not work on Kaine you're putting word in my mouth what i said was that given it took two shots to take out Peter it is going to take a minimum of two to take out someone who has proven to be more tolerant and durable than Pete.
Has Miles ever demonstrated the ability to control the output of his VS if not then there's not going to be any difference in power between a Morals On VS and a Morals Off one.
My bad I read that issue a long time ago and I thought that scene at the end was of Miles passing out not his uncle.
From what i've seen the angrier miles is the more powerful his venom sting. Observe:
This is at around the beggining of the fight. Miles is clearly not angry and when he venom stings Peter you don't even see it when Peter get's stung plus Peter recovers moments later.
(Sorry but you're gonna need to turn your head to the side for these) Peter takes off Miles' mask, clearly pissing Morales off. You can notice that it is much more powerful then it was the last time and Peter is knocked out for a couple of hours (because the fight takes place during the day and Peter later wakes up in the middle of the night).
The only way miles wins is by going invisible and venom stinging kaine which should be pretty easy as kaine doesn't have any spider-sense.
However, if it was pure strength, speed and skill Kaine stomps because he has the experience and has had a recent power boost cause of the other which has given him stingers as well.
@cadencev2: I was unaware of the Omega Red feat thats a new one on me.
I also never said the VS would not work on Kaine you're putting words in my mouth what i said was that given it took two shots to take out Peter it is going to take a minimum of two to take out someone who has proven to be more tolerant and durable than Pete.
Has Miles ever demonstrated the ability to control the output of his VS? If not then there's not going to be any difference in power between a Morals On VS and a Morals Off one.
My bad I read that issue a long time ago and I thought that scene at the end was of Miles passing out not his uncle.
You forget Miles was holding back on harming Peter! So ofcourse the VS did not work the first time well. It still put Peter on the ground! Then the second one was Miles going more out (he was very upset at being demasked) and Peter was DONE!
The whole fight.
Peter clearly strikes first and was on the offense. Miles mostly retaliated with a weak Venom Sting which put Peter down for a sec. Then Peter gets serious. What happens? Invisibility and face kick. Then Peter webs a area, takes Miles mask off, and what happens? Miles gets UPSET and VS through Peters own webbing to KO Peter with a solid shot. Then Miles had to save Peter after that.
This is the INEXPERIENCE Miles who got a solid win on Peter with both parties holding back.
Better powers. Simple as that!
After reading everything here, I still have to back Kaine. He's got stats higher than Peter, and not to mention that when bloodlusted, will be more likely to give in to the Other. High pain tolerance, and he is far more skilled/experienced. He was fast enough to dodge lightning attacks (generated by Living Lightning), and while distracted even took a hit from him and it wasn't enough to keep him down, and jumping through Mammon that someone mentioned earlier (not at home, but if I have time tomorrow, I'll share some scans of this).
I am not saying that enough venom stings wouldn't hurt or put him down...but if Kaine can take a bolt of lightning and not be kept down, then I have a hard time believing Miles can do it easily with bioelectricity. And if Miles with spider-sense can be tagged by someone of Peter's speed, then Kaine shouldn't have too many issues landing a hit.
The Scorpion took the Tinkerers Blast Electricity that fried 3 Humans.
Scorpion had super human durability and pain tolerance. Electricy that fires human Beings, unfazed. Metal Spikes that slice human flesh, unfazed. Bullets, Unfazed!
VENOM STING!
FAZED!
Im sorry Strider, the whole argument of Kaine being pain tolerable means nothing to me with the proof of Venom, Omega Red, Peter, and Scorpion. It just holds no weight. Also like I said this is all Miles before being train by SHIELD.
Miles is trained by spider Woman and SHIELD so he would not suffer Ultimate Peter Parker's outcome.
We will agree to disagree. And in a few days I will finish scanning my Miles collection. Want to do a 616 Spider Men bs ultimate Spider men match in the near future?
Wolverine feat wasn't even that great..Miles fans are ignoring that Kaine bloodlusted=Kaine giving into the Other and Kaine giving into the Other=Monster form Kaine. We have proof that monster form Kaine was unstoppable when the guy posted him going after the werewolves yet you have no proof that the VS would work on him in that form. Give it up Cadence..You could defend Miles all day but Kaine will always be the better Spider and bloodlusted is HIS turf,not Miles. Getting a lucky VS on Peter who wasn't even taking the kid seriously,and no he still didn't take him serious because Spidey when serious isn't wasting his time talking like that hence the kraven fight, is just making you look fanboyish trying to defend Miles when I already disproved you with showing what happens on a regular basis for Spidey not taking his opponent seriously compared to when he's serious like when he went after the Kravens. Besides Ultimate villains aren't even as impressive as their 616 forms. Kaine wins..Miles loses. Game over,thanks for playing.
Miles wasn't serious in that fight either. Let's just put that out there.
Difference being is a serious Peter has better feats.
And that takes away from Miles' speed how? Are you saying Kaine can punch faster than a bullet?
Every character dodges bullets yet they still get tagged. Venom dodges bullets and kaine tagged him numerous times. Wolverine dodges bullets and Kaine tagged him. Bullet dodging isn't impressive.
Peter's also had his nose broken by a door, but have shown he's able to take a punch from some like Frank and not budge.
I am not sure what this is in response to?
Okay. No. Kaine was CLEARLY looking at the doctor when the giant red dot was on the doctor's head. He didn't hear the bullet lol. And his head wasn't out of the window, either.
Your mistaken. He was looking at the back of the doctor not his forehead (where the red dot was). If kaine had noticed it before he reached the window he would have moved him out of the way before that point. There is no indication that the red dot was there until the doctor reached the window.
Again, the bow makes noise and the bow is visible.
It actually depends on the bow. Yes Bows do make noise but some bows make more noise then other. Kaine was a few ft away from the mercenary when he fired the bow and he wasn't listening for the sound of an arrow. Some times its harder to hear something when your attention is focused on something else.
Kaine jsut got snuck up on in this last issue at the end.
So did wolverine IIRC.
He got in the face with a purse or whatever in that very same issue 3.
That was a comic relief moment. Nothing more. Unless you think Annabelle has better reflexes then Kaine....
So, I'm not seeing how he'd be able to take on a spider who can go stealth and put him down with venom blast.
By attacking him first with stingers out....
I know he was drugged after. As I said, she tagged hiim the one time to slow hiim down. And he was looking RIGHT at her when she did it. They were face to face when she first struck with that initial strike.
He didn't recognize her until she lifted her head hence his response "Anna". He was caught off guard with the initial strike...
Again, his fight against Scorpion is good enough to show the damage venom blast(that and when he took down Giant girl) can do as well as the strength of his punches.
I'm not disputing Miles damage output. I all ready mentioned Kaine can one shot Miles as well with stingers.
When hydra attacked the Hellicarrier that was a good enough showing of his speed.
I really don't think that is better then the speed Kaine has show cased.
And serious or not, Pete was still taken down with that very same venom blast against Miles who wasn't serious either.
Peter was trying to figure out what was going on. We don't know what would have happened if Peter was trying to knock out Miles.
@cadencev2 I am going to skip over the part about the venom sting because I all ready acknowledged Miles could end this in one hit. The issue is so can Kaine. Miles isn't tanking a stinger and as such this comes down to who lands the first blow. IMO Kaine has better speed feats and standard battle forum rules state that when starting distance isn't specified characters begin in close.
To address the combat feats:
Something else to not about your scans is it seems Miles never really uses the venom sting right off the bat. He himself states in the prowler fight "sometimes I forget I have all these cool powers". So it seems MIles doesn't always remember to use his cloaking and venom sting right off the bat. Also has his spider-sense shown to work the same way as ultimate Peter and 616 Peters? Like in the case of the Peters spider-sense was a guidance system, in Miles case I am not so sure if the same can be said for him yet. It tells him there is danger but does he have a showing where it tells him where the danger is coming from? I know it tells him there is a threat but is it a guidance system like Peters is?
I do appreciate the scans and they were impressive but I still do give a majority to Kaine.
Want to do a 616 Spider Men bs ultimate Spider men match in the near future?
I must warn you!!!!! Current Spider-man has robots!!!!!! Robots I tellz yah!!! He's going all Skynet on us T.T:
@gambit474: Your really giving the same old debate of "Kaine has Other, Better Stas!" which I countered with "He cannot see Invisble Miles, no Spider Sesne of a attack, and no way to counter Venom sting!"
So how about you address Kaine fighting a Invisible boy with a 1 hit KO attack.
Come up with something new other than better stats when he cannot see or stand up to a blood lusted Venom Sting.
Yeah. The context of fight was Aracely telling Jean Grey to tell Wolverine to fight Kaine because they were being watched by an assassin outside. They fought a while and Kaine was temporarily possessed by the Other which led to Kaine carving Logan's heart in two. Wolverine got up again after that and punched Kaine a few times (who was being held in place by Storm) to vent his anger at Kaine almost killing. So yeah the fight itself isn't really a credible feat of combat due to the context however the Other possession did show how fast Kaine can react if need be as Wolverine didn't come close to stopping him.
YES!!!!!!!!!!! Still Wolverine had no Invisibility power or Venom Sting and still not as fast as Spider Men.
@cadencev2 You make a good point about Miles' SS going off on Jessica, and I did know that, but you have to remember that his Spider-Sense didn't go off against 616 Peter, who Kaine is a clone of. So I still think that The Spider-Sense shouldn't be a factor, in which case Kaine's higher stats become a defining factor.
Why not? Why is Kaine immune to a Alternate Universe Spider Man who is not geneticly or power wise realted to Kaine, Peter clones, at all?! Its a weak argument.
I proven people with Peters GENETIC DNA set off Miles Spider Sense. Miles is not a clone of any Peter. Miles is a Alternate Spider Man with different powers. 3 reasons why Kaine will trip Miles Sense.
Also concerning the fight with Scorpion, its nothing really Kaine couldn't replicate. We've seen a supped up Scorpion fall immense distances from the sky and tanking it, and a p!ssed of SpOck one-shotting him and tearing off his jaw (he wasn't even blood-lusted, as he was surprised by the power of his blow- hence he wasn't even gunning for the kill). Kaine is stronger and due to the stipulations of the battle, is going to be trying even harder to maim and kill.
Sorry, I find it harder Kaine is tougher than a Super Human Durable Scorpion who has a Healing Factor of some kind and Super Durable Body. I find it silly Kaine has better durability than Giant Woman, 616 Peter Parker, or Omega Red.
With Prowler, for me he's just a supped up version of Shocker. Miles taking him down is impressive, because he did so at a young age while still learning the ropes and since Prowler was his relative. Furthermore he did not mean to kill Prowler, so the idea that he would be willing to do anything to put someone down, if we are using that as evidence, is faulty.
He unleashed his Venom Sting too uch, he has in the comics showed concern for using it becuase it might kill people. He used it without a second thought when his life depended on it. He was concern for the small sting on Parker, then unleashed a major one that KOed Parker for a whole day when Miles was upset.
Cmon Laflux.
Also as @strider92 said Kaine has experience. Granted Miles has done some missions with Ult Cap, but Kaine has had Spider-Related powers since the nineties. He may not have any formal training but that doesn't stop him from being a lethal opponent in his own right (hence his links to the league of assassins).
This is Kaine's best trait over Miles, however he has no feats vs Invisible foes with the same Spider Stats of Speed and Agility as himself. None. How will Kaine with no Spider Sense counter Invisible, Spider Man Speed, Venom Sting!?
His pain tolerance should enable him to endure two Venom strikes, as Peter did. Examples of Kaine's resistance to Pain has already been given, but when he removed his suit which slowed his degeneration, weakening him, and lower his stats, he was still able to fight Peter evenly twice (In Pain of Kaine). The title says it all- Kaine has been in some kind of Pain for most of his life. To say he couldn't tank what Peter could is somewhat low-balling him IMO.
OMG.
Miles holding back. Afraid he overdid it!? He was holding back.
Miles upset and laid on a bigger Sting! KOed Peter for a day.
Overall, the way I see it in a no-holes barred match, even if we assume both tag eachother, Kaine's feats of endurance, durability and healing is going mean he'll come out alot better after a Venom sting than Miles would be after a stinger to the chest, or a Mark of Kaine to the face.
Add in Kaine's greater Speed, and that's why I think Kaine should take a comfortable majority.
How is Kaine proven faster? Where can we draw that conclusion? Most of what you said was easy to counter with scans. Why does Kaine win hands down again?
What's all the love for Miles all of a sudden? I thought you hated him? O_o
.......... I did, do, AAAAGGGHHHH its complicated. i finish all Ultimate Peter Collection, I had to start reading something else.... and god dangit, I love this kid Miles now! AGH!
Kaine was really wanting to kill Wolverine..he started making jokes about it later on in the current issues.
Kaine takes a direct slash to his face from Wolv's claws
@cadencev2: Wolverine even holding back and trying not to kill has showings like this:
And this:
So even if wolverine wasn't going for the kill he still has a lot of impressive displays. Yet Kaine managed to beat wolverine something Peter had issues with. That is why I still say Kaine vs wolverine is still an impressive feat for Kaine. On the subject of wolverines durability being downplayed it wasn't. Every time wolverines heart has been destroyed he has been knocked out temporarily. The showing in scarlet spider is not a low showing for wolverine. And his durability was acknowledged (hence Kaines comment of nearly breaking his hand).
@cadencev2: Wolverine even holding back and trying not to kill has showings like this:
And this:
So even if wolverine wasn't going for the kill he still has a lot of impressive displays. Yet Kaine managed to beat wolverine something Peter had issues with. That is why I still say Kaine vs wolverine is still an impressive feat for Kaine. On the subject of wolverines durability being downplayed it wasn't. Every time wolverines heart has been destroyed he has been knocked out temporarily. The showing in scarlet spider is not a low showing for wolverine. And his durability was acknowledged (hence Kaines comment of nearly breaking his hand).
I think Kaine would beat Wolverine, but it would be a dragged out fight. Wolverine Skill as seen on the Vine Battles is scary good and should more than have countered a Stab to the heart.
It makes no sense to me how quick and pathetic that battle was. Grey Hulk vs Wolverine was longer and more impressive!
Anyway. I in no way think Kaine would not own this match if it was vs Ultimate Peter. However their is many factors here.
1) Venom Sting that KOes Omega Red, 616 Peter (When Miles got serious), Scorpion, Giant Women, Rhino, Venom, ect..... Its a instant win with a touch on someone of Kaines durability, as long as Miles is blood lusted and using it at full power.
2) Miles has Spider Sense to negate Kaine's own Stealth Suit.
3) Miles has Invisibility, Kaine has no Spidey Sesne. Surprise attack is easy! Suprise Attack with a touch!
4) Kaine as the Other fights with instainct and no skill as well does not use Stealth Suit. Easier win for a Stealth Venom Sting!
Miles should win this.
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