#1 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter comes across Tech-9 in Walmart and decides they need to fight. Midnighter forgot everything but his shuriken and staff at home and decides he doesn't feel like using his Doors for this fight. Midnighter uses his radiotelepathy bugs to broadcast his motto over the stores speaker system and to call Tech-9 out. Tech-9 spots Midnighter at the other end of the toy aisle and Midnighter gives him the first move. How goes it?

Tech-9 vs. Holocaust
#2 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know much about Tech-9 (I'm going by what's on his bio)but here goes:

At first thought I'd be inclined to go with Midnighter due to a speed blitz/superior speed tactic. I'd think that Midnighter would use his speed which I assume is much greater than Tech and use that to get the first punch in. However due to the fact that Midnighter gives Tech the first move, that means that the speed blitz is out of question and that Tech can has the oppotunity to squeeze a couple of shots on him, but I'll get to that later. Ignoring the fact that he gets the first move, Tech seems to have Superhuman durability which is enough to take hits from Holocaust who is (I assume in Milestone Universe) a 100 tonner. Taking that into account I'm not sure how Midnighter's going to approach this fight and while I'm sure that he'd work something out I think that Tech would get some shots in too. Now that's two opportunities that Tech has to allow himself to tag Middy and effectively kill him, and while Middy can dodge normal bullets, Tech's bullets are stated in his bio to "always hit". So if that's a guaranteed hit and there's no catch to the powers in any manner, then I'd say that Tech can take it, but then again as I have mentioned I don't have any knowledge on the character so I may be missing a CIS/In-Character detail or I may have gotten his powers wrong.

Enlightenment on exactly how his powers fare would be nice from any Milestone fan.

Oh yes, and I was thinking of a Tech N9ne pun, but I thought it'd be best to spare everyone of the misery that comes with it.

#3 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:
Oh yes, and I was thinking of a Tech N9ne pun, but I thought it'd be best to spare everyone of the misery that comes with it.
Hahaha
#4 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I appreciate you giving it some thought. Looking over Holocaust's appearances in Blood Syndicate and and Teen Titans, I'll give you some info on his stats (and so, what Tech-9 had to face, since it's probably the toughest fight he was ever in). Holocaust easily plowed through the Teen Titans (including Miss Martian, Superboy, Wonder Girl, Bombshell, and Cyborg, and he actually traded blows with those characters and always seemed on top, he didn't just run through them without actually fighting). The only things that slowed him up were a double punch by Wonder Girl and Superboy and 74 high speed punches from kid flash (which only dropped him for a second). They "defeated" him by dropping him in the Earth's core, but Static said that wouldn't actually stop him, and one of them broke their hand punching him. That's a pretty high strength and durability level. In their battle for leadership of Blood Syndicate (long before the Teen Titans thing so it's possible that Holocaust was made stronger, but he always seemed to be massively powerful), Holocaust was hurt (he screamed out in pain at the beginning and eventually surrendered) by Tech-9's endless bullets. And though Tech-9 was pretty agile and avoided most of Holocaust's attacks, throughout the fight he was caught a few times and when he was, Holocaust pummeled him mercilessly into the ground, but Tech-9 still went on to win.

I'm unsure how Tech-9's guns work. He always hits what he even slightly desires to, but I've not seen him against someone that can actually dodge bullets.

#5 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#6 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@ReVamp: I appreciate you giving it some thought. Looking over Holocaust's appearances in Blood Syndicate and and Teen Titans, I'll give you some info on his stats (and so, what Tech-9 had to face, since it's probably the toughest fight he was ever in). Holocaust easily plowed through the Teen Titans (including Miss Martian, Superboy, Wonder Girl, Bombshell, and Cyborg, and he actually traded blows with those characters and always seemed on top, he didn't just run through them without actually fighting). The only things that slowed him up were a double punch by Wonder Girl and Superboy and 74 high speed punches from kid flash (which only dropped him for a second). They "defeated" him by dropping him in the Earth's core, but Static said that wouldn't actually stop him, and one of them broke their hand punching him. That's a pretty high strength and durability level.

Yeah, I'm aware of what he's done in the Teen Titan run. I read that quite vividly at the time since I was looking forward to see the team go back towards what it was before Infinite Crisis. That's besides the point though, I just wasn't sure whether he was altered in any manner after being integrated into the mainstream DCU so I didn't want to make sure whether it would be wise to measure the character by that power-level.

In their battle for leadership of Blood Syndicate (long before the Teen Titans thing so it's possible that Holocaust was made stronger, but he always seemed to be massively powerful), Holocaust was hurt (he screamed out in pain at the beginning and eventually surrendered) by Tech-9's endless bullets. And though Tech-9 was pretty agile and avoided most of Holocaust's attacks, throughout the fight he was caught a few times and when he was, Holocaust pummeled him mercilessly into the ground, but Tech-9 still went on to win.
I'm unsure how Tech-9's guns work. He always hits what he even slightly desires to, but I've not seen him against someone that can actually dodge bullets.

Well, I think if the hail of bullets can cause him to gain the edge over Holocaust whose a character of considerable power, then the bullets will be enough to put down Midnighter, so if I were to judge this under the presumption that the bullets can't actually be dodged by anyone then I'd say that Tech takes it, and with some ease at that (under these specific circumstances, that is). If there is no evidence to show that the bullets can be dodged, then I'll stick with that presumption.

Therefore, Tech wins until proven otherwise.

#7 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (903 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp:

- I don't have any scans nor read anybody that was capable of dodging Tech-9's bullet's, but if there was someone that knew exactly where and when those bullets will come into contact while still dodging, it would be midnighter. It would be dump on his part if he let Tech-9 shoot at him knowing well enough that he has "infinite ammo" even if he has a healing factor and can turn off his pain recepters he'll still take damage regardless, so Midnighter will most likely be moving around the walmart store - using shelves and pillers as cover, throw hard and shape objects at him or as distractions while Tech-9 will just keep on shooting trying to hit Midddy as things explode, the celling caving in, light's go out, things like that. Once Midnighter gets close enough to take Tech-9's gun's away he'll end the fight...However, Tech-9 can also materialize gun's into his hands, I don't the limits of how many times he can do it but it's propably because of his minor telekinetic abilities that doing it. Midnighter will just have to throw his shurikens hard enough to plunge Tech-9's hands into the wall and beat him down.

- Hasn't Midnighter took on guy's that had superb durability like Kaizen Gamorra's supersoldier army, Dr. Krigstein's metahumans, go sparring with Apollo, Jack Hawksmoor, Lobo, that guy that has similar powers to Majestic, and Captain Atom before? I don't think Tech-9 has super strength nor a healing factor but just his durability, so Midnighter can get around that just by attacking his pressure ponits, vitals areas, throw bleach or shurikens into his eyes (he's in a walmart store), throw his staff at the side to the forehead, the solar plexus, his shin and feet, his nose and throat - with more than enough force he can take him down. But I think this fight wil take a while because of Tech-9's "infinite ammo" abilities. So I give this fight to Midnighter since is considered a sporting match to him.

I have a link to a website that describes how the fight between Tech-9 and Holocaust turned out : http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/08/25/almost-hidden-the-introduction-of-the-blood-syndicate/

#8 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: To help you out, McDuffie stated that Holocaust's strength level is within Icon's strength class. Icon is nearly as strong as Superman, and has actually fought him to a standstill in World's Collide (DC/Milestone crossover, one of the very few canon DC crossovers). There was a guy that asked McDuffie in his own forum how Holocaust was able to contend with Superboy and the like, and his response was where his strength level lies and that Superboy and Wonder Girl should be 'easy pickings.'

#9 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nerd Of A Hero said:

- Hasn't Midnighter took on guy's that had superb durability like Kaizen Gamorra's supersoldier army, Dr. Krigstein's metahumans, go sparring with Apollo, Jack Hawksmoor, Lobo, that guy that has similar powers to Majestic, and Captain Atom before?

Midnighter has never landed blows on Captain Atom before. So, he shouldn't even be mentioned.

#10 Posted by crackerjack82 (2607 posts) - - Show Bio

Such a sad shame the world is without Dwayne.... One of the Best writers to come along in such a long time. Tech-9 could pull this off. but not easily

#11 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (903 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock: I remember now, all he did was dodge his blast and pushed him into 'Door' after midnighter beaten down Grifter just before Apollo blasted his head off.

#12 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@crackerjack82 said:

Such a sad shame the world is without Dwayne.... One of the Best writers to come along in such a long time.

I beg to differ, but to each his own.

#13 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

I beg to differ, but to each his own.

Milestone had vision, I don't think that can be denied. It wasn't as popular as one would hope, but... Oh well, what can you do.

@Nerd Of A Hero said:

- I don't have any scans nor read anybody that was capable of dodging Tech-9's bullet's, but if there was someone that knew exactly where and when those bullets will come into contact while still dodging, it would be midnighter.

That's absolutely true man and I completely agree with you, however if his bullets are undogeable and there is "evidence" that seems to back this up in some manner then it doesn't matter whether Midnighter can or can't dodge bullets of a Post-Human with enhanced aiming ability because their undogeable. Now, the flaw that my argument has is whether there exists enough evidence to prove that the bullets which Tech 9 fires "always hit their target" or whether this is more of a brag and its entirely possible that his bullets are dodged. Due to my lack of knowledge on the subject, I'm not exactly the best person to debate this obviously, but since no one has bothered to pick it up then so be it.

It would be dump on his part if he let Tech-9 shoot at him knowing well enough that he has "infinite ammo"

Well, there's two factors that you're most probably not considering when it comes to the power of the characters. The first is the scenario that the OP has elborately created which means that Tech 9 will always get the first strike on Midnighter. This means that Tech will end up getting a couple of shot on Midnighter before the latter actually does anything, so all chances of him ending the fight via speed blitz are gone. (Which I believe is why Buck put it there). The second factor that you're forgetting is that as impressive of a character that Midnighter is, he's only got so many stats. So while I undoubtedly think that he's going to end up tagging Tech provided that these bullets don't put him down at the very beginning of the battle, then I don't see why Tech just couldn't Tank the damage until it ends.

even if he has a healing factor and can turn off his pain recepters he'll still take damage regardless, so Midnighter will most likely be moving around the walmart store

That's true, but then exactly how is that going to help Middy, taking into account that he's not going to be able to dodge the bullets? Could the bullets get lodged in some sort of substance on their fight? Absolutely, but Tech would be spamming the sh!t out of his guns so it doesn't really matter regardless.

- using shelves and pillers as cover, throw hard and shape objects at him or as distractions while Tech-9 will just keep on shooting trying to hit Midddy as things explode, the celling caving in, light's go out, things like that.

I don't see why things would explode, but the fight should be over before that type of damage to the enviornment settles in. You mentioned above that its possible Middy could ignore the damage, but if these bullets hurt the likes of Holocaust, then its more likely than not that they'll damage Tech in a more permanent manner.

Once Midnighter gets close enough to take Tech-9's gun's away he'll end the fight...

He won't. I don't see how you can possibly say that taking into account that Tech has some insane durability feats, so while at Close Range Middy has some advantage, I don't think its enough to actually warrant him a win. Tech will be able to surely tank the damage that he's going to be taking and when he gets the chance he'll end up shooting him. And I'm not sure why we're this far into the fight, since technically the fight will be over before it even reaches to this. Like I said, could be I'm vastly overestimating Tech, but then again no one is really proving me wrong. (or right for that matter, the knowledge people have on Tech seems to be rudimentary.)

However, Tech-9 can also materialize gun's into his hands, I don't the limits of how many times he can do it but it's probably because of his minor telekinetic abilities that doing it. Midnighter will just have to throw his shurikens hard enough to plunge Tech-9's hands into the wall and beat him down.

No. Midnighter won't be able to do that because Tech's invulnerability is too far up the ladder to be plunged by shurikens. He took hits from Holocaust, who according to Duffie makes Superboy and Wonder Girl look like easy picking.

- Hasn't Midnighter took on guy's that had superb durability like Kaizen Gamorra's supersoldier army, Dr. Krigstein's metahumans,

Yes, but those are for the most part featless in terms of durability, nowhere near the level of Holocaust.

go sparring with Apollo, Jack Hawksmoor, Lobo,

Sparring =/= fighting. Batman spars with Wonder Woman, so does Black Canary, that doesn't mean that any of them has any semblance of chance to win in a random encounter H2H.

that guy that has similar powers to Majestic, and Captain Atom before?

No idea who you're talking about and I don't recall him going toe-to-toe with Captain Atom. Feel free to post some feats, but I don't see that happening.

I don't think Tech-9 has super strength nor a healing factor but just his durability, so Midnighter can get around that just by attacking his pressure ponits, vitals areas, throw bleach or shurikens into his eyes (he's in a walmart store), throw his staff at the side to the forehead, the solar plexus, his shin and feet, his nose and throat - with more than enough force he can take him down.
But I think this fight wil take a while because of Tech-9's "infinite ammo" abilities. So I give this fight to Midnighter since is considered a sporting match to him.

I don't see how you think this fight will take a long battle because of the "infinite ammo" capabilities. If its going to take a long while, then by extension you're implying that the battle would have Midnighter getting tagged by the bullets, which you still haven't proven wouldn't hit him and KO/kill him off the bat.

I have a link to a website that describes how the fight between Tech-9 and Holocaust turned out : http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/08/25/almost-hidden-the-introduction-of-the-blood-syndicate/

This basically comes down to how "accurate" for a lack of a better terms the shots of Tech 9 are, like I said above, so I'll go into the link and look at the scans to see exactly how good Tech 9 is or how competent his powers are.

@Buckshot: How big exactly is this Supermarket, in case range becomes an issue at any point during the battle?

#14 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

Milestone had vision, I don't think that can be denied. It wasn't as popular as one would hope, but... Oh well, what can you do.

It did, and McDuffie's writing was decent when writing his own creations. His portrayal of other characters within shared fiction weren't that great. However, his ability to write animated movies weren't bad.

#15 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (903 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: "Now, the flaw that my argument has is whether there exists enough evidence to prove that the bullets which Tech 9 fires "always hit their target" or whether this is more of a brag and its entirely possible that his bullets are dodged."

- Like I said, I don't have any scans on anyone that was capable of dodging his shots. Tech-9 died after four issues of Boold Syndicate and even then I don't think he ever fought guys that can dodge bullets with good reflexes and speed. The Lady reporter stated that he fired like a Old Cowboy Movie but just her description of how the situation happened. If Tech-9 guns fire the same way like a regular machine gun or any gun except that it always hit it's target, then Middy can dodge them just the same, especially since those bullets aren't lightning fast. Do you know how fast those bullets can go just before they hit there target? Has tech-9 fired at anyone that had superhuman speed and reflexes that was capable of dodging his bullets while trying to attack him? Midnighter ha s done this plenty of times, though I can't imagine he'll be dodging all day.

"The first is the scenario that the OP has elborately created which means that Tech 9 will always get the first strike on Midnighter. This means that Tech will end up getting a couple of shot on Midnighter before the latter actually does anything, so all chances of him ending the fight via speed blitz are gone. The second factor that you're forgetting is that as impressive of a character that Midnighter is, he's only got so many stats. So while I undoubtedly think that he's going to end up tagging Tech provided that these bullets don't put him down at the very beginning of the battle, then I don't see why Tech just couldn't Tank the damage until it ends."

- Midnighter can dodge, do parrying and take some bullets to the body - while still keep on fighting/going. I'm sure he'll be ok after taking a couple of shots. If the fight allows Tech-9 to take "a couple of shots" then that's how Midnighter will play it, you see. Midnighter can predict how a fight turns out in a million ways and can sense what kind of abilities Tech-9 has and defeat him. He did gave the first move to Tech-9 didn't he? You don't think he would've jumped in to this fight and not know what Tech-9 could do to him?

"That's true, but then exactly how is that going to help Middy, taking into account that he's not going to be able to dodge the bullets? Could the bullets get lodged in some sort of substance on their fight? Absolutely, but Tech would be spamming the sh!t out of his guns so it doesn't really matter regardless."

- Look at my early post when I posted those images. In the first one, we see Midnighter dodging Lamplights lazer while it was coming at him at all diffeent directions. Not many guys can do such a thing. Can you tell me if tech-9's bullets can come at him at all directions all at once BESIDES GOING AT HIM FORWARD? The second scene show a guy shooting at him, once defeated, Apollo explains that those guns "uses human brains linked to quantum computing frames to aim. Chooses targets like clothing, skin color etc, and never miss." Sounds something similar to Tech-9's guns with the never miss part., and yet Midnighter was capable of dodging them without a scratcth. Third shows the woman shooting at him, but even with enhancements he was able to dodge. If tech-9 is going to spam the sh!t out of his gun then all the more reason Midnighter is going to be moving around Walmart. If you think that the bullets can get lodged into some substance then take it'll be good for him to get some cover.

"I don't see why things would explode, but the fight should be over before that type of damage to the enviornment settles in. You mentioned above that its possible Middy could ignore the damage, but if these bullets hurt the likes of Holocaust, then its more likely than not that they'll damage Tech in a more permanent manner"

- The Exploding part I went to dramatic and your right, this fight shouldn't take so long to finish. As for Tech-9 taking damage...

then again, he did took a beating from a guy that made Superboy and Wonder Girl look like easy picking. But he can get his butt kicked nonetheless.

- Okay, if Midnighter's not going to take his guns away up close, then he'll just have to knock it out of Tech-9's hands with his staff. Your right about the fact that he can't plunge his shurikens into Tech-9's hands to the wall due to his durability, but what if he was able to crack his fingers with enough force using his staff/shurikens?

- He regularly spars with Apollo - who has durability like Superman' and fought Apollo, Jack Hawksmoor, Lobo before with super strength and other abilities. If he can take them on why not Tech-9? Except for military training and materalizing guns, It's not like he has super strength and able to vaperize an island or anything. If they come into combat then like I said Midnighter just attacks vital areas, do nerve strikes and pressure points at different angles at different areas to the body with speed and force. Your right, this should be a quick yet good fight, he never fought Captain atom, and I can't remember the guy's name but he was from the recent wildcats/authority series where he kicked Midnighter in the face then later Midnighter fought back.

- Let me know what you think about those scans.

#16 Posted by Saren (26016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nerd Of A Hero:

I can't remember the guy's name but he was from the recent wildcats/authority series where he kicked Midnighter in the face then later Midnighter fought back.

Sebastian. He was a Kheran warlord a la Majestic.

Interesting debate.

Moderator
#17 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

- Hasn't Midnighter took on guy's that had superb durability like Kaizen Gamorra's supersoldier army, Dr. Krigstein's metahumans,

Yes, but those are for the most part featless in terms of durability, nowhere near the level of Holocaust.

go sparring with Apollo, Jack Hawksmoor, Lobo,

Sparring =/= fighting. Batman spars with Wonder Woman, so does Black Canary, that doesn't mean that any of them has any semblance of chance to win in a random encounter H2H.

that guy that has similar powers to Majestic, and Captain Atom before?

No idea who you're talking about and I don't recall him going toe-to-toe with Captain Atom. Feel free to post some feats, but I don't see that happening.

@Buckshot: How big exactly is this Supermarket, in case range becomes an issue at any point during the battle?

Just to clarify/support some of what was said, I wouldn't call the Children of Gamorra featless in terms of durability. In fact, they only real thing they showed was durability and speed. They could crash into cities flying at speeds that could take them around the world in a minute, and come up unharmed. Just as a note. As for the sparring comments, Midnighter did more than just spar with Hawksmoor. He's fought him seriously more than once and was either even with him or ahead. The Lobo thing I wouldn't get into much, but his sparring with Apollo showed it's results when Midnighter actually took on Apollo once (note: he didn't take him down with just fists) and stomping on a rip-off version of Apollo. The character with powers like Majestic was Sebastian. Scans were provided. The Walmart is a super walmart. I don't know how big that is, but it's big. Lots of room. And people!

#18 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

Just to clarify/support some of what was said, I wouldn't call the Children of Gamorra featless in terms of durability. In fact, they only real thing they showed was durability and speed. They could crash into cities flying at speeds that could take them around the world in a minute, and come up unharmed.

Yes, but I'm not sure whether that truly means anything. Calling them featless wasn't the term I was looking for, but my point remains the same. I'm going off what I remember of course, but I wasn't impressed with their durability at all, not to mention the fact that they were flying at a high speed. Flash can run at high speed and punch Superman in the face, but he's just as vulnerable to a bullet.

Just as a note. As for the sparring comments, Midnighter did more than just spar with Hawksmoor. He's fought him seriously more than once and was either even with him or ahead.

I misinterpreted his comments then, I assumed that he sparred with both Hawksmoor and Midnighter. I don't think I read his encounter with Hawksmoor. I'd have to go on and read it before passing judgement, though it really depends on the location when it comes to Hawksmoor.

The Lobo thing I wouldn't get into much, but his sparring with Apollo showed it's results when Midnighter actually took on Apollo once (note: he didn't take him down with just fists) and stomping on a rip-off version of Apollo. The character with powers like Majestic was Sebastian. Scans were provided.

I'll have to see what kind of damage it caused him and whether he's just as powerful as Majestic or not. Not all Kryptonians are as powerful as Superman.

The Walmart is a super walmart. I don't know how big that is, but it's big. Lots of room. And people!

I see.

I'll get to Nerd when I have more time to spare, this was just a short one.

#19 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (903 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Yeah, that's him. Thanks

@Buckshot: I know that Apollo and Midnighter spars when he was explaining this to 'Dawn' (that female Apollo rip off) before fighting, I know he took on the Authority when he was controlled by Henry Bendix, but I never knew he regularly spars with Jack Hawksmoor.

@ReVamp: That man was Sebastian. In fact, in the same series before Midnighter fought Zealot, he took down Maul but went easy because he wanted information. So you can count him having high durability. As for Lobo, he went a toe to toe with him for a while, and he's a foe of Superman's. Still, but I don't know which version it is though.

#20 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nerd Of A Hero: In that Scan though, Lobo doesn't seem injured at all.

#21 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (903 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I was only showing that to explain that Midnighter can take on guys with such a durability. I sure Lobo would've felt some kind of pain, but like I said if Midnighter were to apply nerve strikes, attack the vitals, bag his ear drums like he did with Apollo etc. he'll give Tech-9 a run for his money.

#22 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp:

I don't see why crashing into earth at a significant speed and being unscathed wouldn't mean anything. It clearly shows great durability, which was what was being talked about. And the Children of Gamorra had no physics-cancelling field of speed force to help them. It was shown later that they don't just ignore the force of impact because it suits the story (like Flash does). Midnighter fought Hawksmoor twice, once in a city and once on the Carrier. In neither case was he powerless but Midnighter still took him on (and was winning one of the fights) despite Hawksmoor being as acrobatic as Spider-Man and capable of chucking semis when powerless. Sebastian was the greatest warlord the Kherans had ever seen and he was Majestic's teacher. He faced off against Battalion (+100 tonner when using his psionic powers to boost his strength) and I think he only got a bloody nose when they tried to kill him by hitting him with Skywatch (Stormwatch's satellite headquarters). He also punked Apollo, an amped Fuji, and Black Halo (I'm not including Fuji because he didn't really use strength for that one). It's smart of you to not assume he's as powerful as Majestic just because he's a Kheran, but he has feats that display his power and his rep as the baddest Kheran conqueror ever is not to be dismissed.

@Nerd Of A Hero:

He didn't spar with Hawksmoor, they had two real fights. Well, the first one wasn't real for Midnighter, he was just trying to break up the team, but it was real for Hawksmoor.

#23 Edited by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nerd Of A Hero: I will get to the argument but I'm busy as fck.

@Buckshot:

For the Hawksmoor and Sebastian showing, I'll have to look into it. But onto the Children of Gamorra, the point is that people get chucked through buildings all the times and come out relatively unscathed. I know I'm not being exactly fair by saying that since they weren't just crashing into a wall, but I don't think its impressive enough to use as a measure on this level of durability.

In the meanwhile... Bump.

#24 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nerd Of A Hero said:

- Like I said, I don't have any scans on anyone that was capable of dodging his shots. Tech-9 died after four issues of Boold Syndicate and even then I don't think he ever fought guys that can dodge bullets with good reflexes and speed. The Lady reporter stated that he fired like a Old Cowboy Movie but just her description of how the situation happened. If Tech-9 guns fire the same way like a regular machine gun or any gun except that it always hit it's target, then Middy can dodge them just the same, especially since those bullets aren't lightning fast. Do you know how fast those bullets can go just before they hit there target? Has tech-9 fired at anyone that had superhuman speed and reflexes that was capable of dodging his bullets while trying to attack him? Midnighter ha s done this plenty of times, though I can't imagine he'll be dodging all day.

I seem to agree with much of this statement. Its true that Middy is should be able to dodge most of these shots, and since there seems to be nothing to suggest that they will always hit their mark on a target such as Midnighter (mostly due to a lack of feats and a lack of people with dodging ability being put to a test) I'd think that Middy would be able to dodge the shots. That said, one should take into consideration that Middy's going to let him get the first round of shots in, due to Buck's OP.

- Midnighter can dodge, do parrying and take some bullets to the body - while still keep on fighting/going. I'm sure he'll be ok after taking a couple of shots.

If the bullets manage to harm someone on the level of Holocaust, then I don't think youre being fair at all. Middy being able to take normal bullets to the body is one thing, but that doesn't pay much relevance here because these are definitely not normal bullets that are coming out of this gun. So no, if he ends up getting tagged he's going to be pretty effed up.

If the fight allows Tech-9 to take "a couple of shots" then that's how Midnighter will play it, you see.

If Tech gets "a couple of shots" on Midnighter, then Midnighter isn't going to be going anywhere. In a normal comic book fight Midnighter wouldn't allow Tech to get any sort of battle because based on feats we can see that they will damage him. Midnighter would only "let it play this way" if that was not that case, and since it is he would never let it go that way. Now this isn't a comic book, this is a battle forum. If the OP is set in a way that gets shot more than a couple of times, then I do not see Midnighter taking a majority. It is up to us however, to decide whether or not this battle will end up with Midnighter getting shot as per OP.

Midnighter can predict how a fight turns out in a million ways and can sense what kind of abilities Tech-9 has and defeat him. He did gave the first move to Tech-9 didn't he? You don't think he would've jumped in to this fight and not know what Tech-9 could do to him?

He knows what Midnighter can do to him, but remember, this ISN'T a comic book fight. Its got rules placed in the OP that are put there so we can balance the playing field for both of them. An argument such as "Midnighter wouldn't do it if it was going to make him lose" isn't valid, because of this.

- Look at my early post when I posted those images. In the first one, we see Midnighter dodging Lamplights lazer while it was coming at him at all diffeent directions. Not many guys can do such a thing. Can you tell me if tech-9's bullets can come at him at all directions all at once BESIDES GOING AT HIM FORWARD? The second scene show a guy shooting at him, once defeated, Apollo explains that those guns "uses human brains linked to quantum computing frames to aim. Chooses targets like clothing, skin color etc, and never miss." Sounds something similar to Tech-9's guns with the never miss part., and yet Midnighter was capable of dodging them without a scratcth. Third shows the woman shooting at him, but even with enhancements he was able to dodge. If tech-9 is going to spam the sh!t out of his gun then all the more reason Midnighter is going to be moving around Walmart. If you think that the bullets can get lodged into some substance then take it'll be good for him to get some cover.

I agree with most of what is written here as well.

- The Exploding part I went to dramatic and your right, this fight shouldn't take so long to finish. As for Tech-9 taking damage...then again, he did took a beating from a guy that made Superboy and Wonder Girl look like easy picking. But he can get his butt kicked nonetheless.

He can, but he's proven he has enough Durability to stand up to Holocaust. Midnighter on the other hand, has shown that he definitely has enough strength to get it on with Lobo, however none of the attacks seem to have a lasting effect on Lobo, whereas Midnighter definitely has to dodge the strikes by Lobo. Of course, I'm not saying that you are trying to imply he can go hand-to-hand with Lobo, but I'm simply stating that based on that feat enough I don't think its sufficient to imply he's going to be taking Tech-9 out with that much ease.

As for the Sebastian feat, I'd appreciate getting a look at the page just after that. How harmed is Sebastian? Or at least just an issue number, I may have it.

- Okay, if Midnighter's not going to take his guns away up close, then he'll just have to knock it out of Tech-9's hands with his staff. Your right about the fact that he can't plunge his shurikens into Tech-9's hands to the wall due to his durability, but what if he was able to crack his fingers with enough force using his staff/shurikens?

I don't see him being able to crack his fingers, and I doubt that would be the most effective tactic. If Middy is in a situation where he has that much control over Tech, he can go for a more lethal strike as opposed to that. Taking away his guns is even more ridiculous, due to the fact Tech can just summon more. Midnighter knows this, then it doesn't make sense that he would try and do such a thing. I mean, I'm sure he'd do it if he's going to be closing up and trying to go for some Close-Quarters combat, but I don't think its a strategy he'll put to use.

- He regularly spars with Apollo - who has durability like Superman' and fought Apollo, Jack Hawksmoor, Lobo before with super strength and other abilities. If he can take them on why not Tech-9? Except for military training and materalizing guns, It's not like he has super strength and able to vaperize an island or anything. If they come into combat then like I said Midnighter just attacks vital areas, do nerve strikes and pressure points at different angles at different areas to the body with speed and force. Your right, this should be a quick yet good fight, he never fought Captain atom, and I can't remember the guy's name but he was from the recent wildcats/authority series where he kicked Midnighter in the face then later Midnighter fought back.

Taking on people =/= Incapacitating people. That's what you have to prove my man. If they come into close quarters I think its quite obvious that Middy will have the advantage. Sure, I can see Tech getting out of his "hold" (so to speak) once or twice, but that's about it.

- Let me know what you think about those scans.

Thanks for the Tech ones.

Now all this said, as much as I've tried to form an argument for Tech, he simply doesn't have enough feats to go on. He's barely appeared, so we have to go on simply a few of the feats that we've seen, which is no easy task. He doesn't come up to par with what he should be doing, so after looking at his feats I think that he simply doesn't have what it takes feat-wise to take Middy out. I'm sure he'll provide a good fight, but Midnighter will take in my opinion, a majority over him. The only way that Tech could be argued to take a majority, is if he gains some new feats which prove his ability at shooting targets capable of dodging.

PS. Sorry for the extremely late response. I was occupied and eventually forgot this =P.

#25 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (903 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: So sorry for the late reply, things to do and life stuff. I know this is old in 'battle forum' years but I just want to clear things up.

- Buckshot's OP said he 'gave him the first move' not first shot. However, considering that unarmed combat is not a smart thing to do, it would be wise for Tech-9 to shot first at a distance.

- Your right, if Tech-9 can hurt a guy like Holocaust then Midnighter will get effed up. But Midnighter still has his healing factor and can turn off his pain receptors, and the fact that he knows Tech-9's abilities and how this fight will turn out is the reason why I feel confident that will get outta there. But still with injury. When Tech-9 was shooting at Holocaust while he was charging at him - just before his beat the hell outta tech-9 - Holocaust wasn't effected by the bullets. It's only when Tech-9 was shooting at close range while constantly shooting him that lead to Holocaust defeat. However, he's shooting him at a long distance. Yes, Midnighter will get hurt by the shots but with his healing factor and turning off his pain receptors plus that fact that he can dodges bullets like nothing, he'll get outta there, and when he comes back to get back at Tech-9 he's do it with a different tactic.

- I'll flat out tell you right now that I'm not an expert at battle forums, hell I don't go to them that much for several reasons. That being said, I don't see why we can't use comic book references, sources, and feats of these characters. They are from comic books and their feats are shown in them so why not use that? Aren't these fanboy's and other casual readers doing it all that time? Battle forums to me is let those PC Strategy games and I know it's up to us to decide how this battle will turn out, but if Midnighter's going to let Tech-9 shoot him constantly and then die then that'll be foolish because it completely goes up against of Middy winning. He does want to win this fight because his knows it right? So, it's just common sense that he wouldn't be doing THAT knowing full well he'll lose THAT way.

- Middy can give Tech-9 a beating but yeah, it will take a while and not with ease.

- Yes, lethal strikes, powerful blows to the head, kicking in the balls LOL and things that I stated before like hitting his eardrums like he did to Apollo will be more effective against Tech-9. You convinced me that taking his guns wouldn't work but I think he can use it against him. Hand to Hand combat is fine so as long as his dodges but Middy's going to need something that will take out Tech-9 for good. I know it isn't in the OP but I was thinking he can call the Carrier to shoot lasers at him. If he had some bombs he could use that on his face several times but the OP doesn't state that. You know what? In fact, Midinghter can just get out of Walmart, find and drive a Truck into Walmart ramming at Tech-9 to the floor. He'll be find due to his durability but he can't lift it up since he doesn't have super strength and if he uses his guns it'll just blow up on him.

Now I know that last part was ridiculous but hey, it's a battle forum. XD

- Yes, I must agree that he doesn't have that many feats for this fight and only appeared in four issues so there's not much we can give in this argument. It would be nice to see him have more abilities and appear more in comics, he seems like a badass character.