#1 Edited by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter (Wildstorm Version):

Vs

Kaine (Classic):

Conditions:

  • Morals On
  • No Doors
  • No Large Explosives
  • Standard Gear
  • No Prep
  • Random Encounter
  • Win by KO or Death

Location:

#2 Posted by laflux (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

I was just about to make this thread lol.

I think its a fair enough match-up, but I would disable Large explosives from Midnighter's line up.

oh and

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#3 Edited by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I'll see what Buckshot says but Kaine has taken huge explosions in the past. I'll remove them if it does make it unfair however:

@laflux said:

I was just about to make this thread lol.

Hah! Oh well at least that means its a good match up if both of us thought of it xD I hope...

#4 Posted by laflux (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: Midnighter has Nuke sized Explosives in his arsenal, though by using them, he puts himself in danger if he doesn't have doors.

I do think its a decent match-up. Classic Kaine is a beast.

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#5 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I'm not sure those nukes are standard gear but incase they are i'll remove them.

#6 Edited by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

bump!

#7 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine's tendency to tank damage, and inability to properly utilize his spider sense (even being detrimentally distracted by it at times) will cost him this battle, in my opinion.

#8 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6557 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with BringnIt. Only way to stand up to the battle computer boy would be to benefit from a near infallible spider-sense (and even then). Otherwise, MN will have an answer for everything Kaine dishes out and will shut him down by tagging his weaknesses in short order.

#9 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

I agree with BringnIt. Only way to stand up to the battle computer boy would be to benefit from a near infallible spider-sense (and even then). Otherwise, MN will have an answer for everything Kaine dishes out and will shut him down by tagging his weaknesses in short order.

Fair enough. I will just ask one thing. It is generally considered in battle threads that Midnighter beats Spider-man after a good fight. Which I agree with. Midnighter's durability is one hard thing to bypass and his battle computer makes him hard to predict but even with spider-sense's Peter, Ben and Spidercide attacking him at the same time failed to bring Kaine down. So my main question is what gives Midnighter a solid win over Kaine when an opponent Kaine beat down with relative ease (3 times) gives Mr. Trent a reasonably good fight. I know its sort of ABC logic but it does apply here as 3 people with a spider-sense were still unable to put Kaine down.

I'm fine if you think Midnighter wins i'm just trying to understand what makes you think he takes a solid majority.

#10 Posted by laflux (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: Maybe if you want a Spider to give Midnighter an even better fight, you should use my Composite Spider-Man from the Kaine and Midnighter vs Composite Spider-Man and Nemesis thread.

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#11 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 Kaine did so well against the other Spider-Men because they really had no way to beat him at the time. He was too strong for webbing, they couldn't hurt him with blunt trauma, they don't use piercing damage and at the time Peter didn't have his improved gear or the skill to use nerve strikes. Not only that, but if I recall correctly at the time their spider senses did not work on Kaine (although it did during Spider Island). Midnighter doesn't suffer those same issues. He knows nerve strikes and he has the striking feats to take Kaine down. Spider-Man is a different matchup because at his best, with spider sense operating at optimal capacity, he is a much more efficient dodger than Kaine, particularly in his classic incarnation.

#12 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6557 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

I agree with BringnIt. Only way to stand up to the battle computer boy would be to benefit from a near infallible spider-sense (and even then). Otherwise, MN will have an answer for everything Kaine dishes out and will shut him down by tagging his weaknesses in short order.

Fair enough. I will just ask one thing. It is generally considered in battle threads that Midnighter beats Spider-man after a good fight. Which I agree with. Midnighter's durability is one hard thing to bypass and his battle computer makes him hard to predict but even with spider-sense's Peter, Ben and Spidercide attacking him at the same time failed to bring Kaine down. So my main question is what gives Midnighter a solid win over Kaine when an opponent Kaine beat down with relative ease (3 times) gives Mr. Trent a reasonably good fight. I know its sort of ABC logic but it does apply here as 3 people with a spider-sense were still unable to put Kaine down.

I'm fine if you think Midnighter wins i'm just trying to understand what makes you think he takes a solid majority.

See, that's just the thing, I don't think Spider-Man gives MN so close a fight. Midnighter, written as he was in Wildstorm, would make short work of Peter Parker.

#13 Posted by laflux (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Strider92 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

I agree with BringnIt. Only way to stand up to the battle computer boy would be to benefit from a near infallible spider-sense (and even then). Otherwise, MN will have an answer for everything Kaine dishes out and will shut him down by tagging his weaknesses in short order.

Fair enough. I will just ask one thing. It is generally considered in battle threads that Midnighter beats Spider-man after a good fight. Which I agree with. Midnighter's durability is one hard thing to bypass and his battle computer makes him hard to predict but even with spider-sense's Peter, Ben and Spidercide attacking him at the same time failed to bring Kaine down. So my main question is what gives Midnighter a solid win over Kaine when an opponent Kaine beat down with relative ease (3 times) gives Mr. Trent a reasonably good fight. I know its sort of ABC logic but it does apply here as 3 people with a spider-sense were still unable to put Kaine down.

I'm fine if you think Midnighter wins i'm just trying to understand what makes you think he takes a solid majority.

See, that's just the thing, I don't think Spider-Man gives MN so close a fight. Midnighter, written as he was in Wildstorm, would make short work of Peter Parker.

Composite Spider-Man Goddammit =D !!!!!!

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#14 Posted by dondave (38780 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter ftw

#15 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

@Strider92 Kaine did so well against the other Spider-Men because they really had no way to beat him at the time. He was too strong for webbing, they couldn't hurt him with blunt trauma, they don't use piercing damage and at the time Peter didn't have his improved gear or the skill to use nerve strikes. Not only that, but if I recall correctly at the time their spider senses did not work on Kaine (although it did during Spider Island).

It did due to Kaine's degeneration. Here's an example:

Spider-sense worked but Kaine was faster than Pete.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

See, that's just the thing, I don't think Spider-Man gives MN so close a fight. Midnighter, written as he was in Wildstorm, would make short work of Peter Parker.

How so? With morals on yes Midnighter would dominate but with morals off and both fighting at their best (no doors ofc) I don't see what makes Midnighter a lot higher. His battle computer isn't full blown pre-cog either. It just runs through the-most likely scenarios and executes the one that gives Middy the best chance of winning:

It doesn't tell him how to him exactly how to win just the best possibility. I would call an automatic response to danger like spider-sense more realiable.

#16 Edited by Saren (26014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: There's an issue of Midnighter's ongoing (#7) that's devoted entirely to showcasing how the computer works and how he views life in reverse. It shows him every possible way a situation could go, for better or for worse, and then Midnighter picks the ending he wants and follows the route to achieve it. That's the best case scenario. Worst case, if he's fighting someone completely out of his league like Helspont or someone like that, it shows him a million different ways he could die and nothing he does changes that. In Morrison's run on the Authority, there was one scene where Midnighter's computer shows him what would happen if he killed the army facing him, right down to the political consequences and the TV reports of what he had done.

How far down the line is vision like that? Days? What would you call that, if not full-blown pre-cog? It's hard to tell exactly how much of Midnighter's ability to exploit a opponent's weaknesses is battle smarts and how much is his computer, but he's been shown to pinpoint and take advantage of physical weak spots (like when he whacked Apollo and made him bleed) and flaws in their fighting style (like when he took down Engineer while explaining that she had horrible aim at close range, especially when she was in a rage). Assuming that's his computer at work, it's obviously telling him how to win. In another fight (against a speedster called Impetus), Midnighter mutters several of the battle computer's plans under his breath while Impetus is running towards him, giving the impression that he's seeing which of them would work and which of them wouldn't (at one point he says "No, that won't work", which suggests that his battle computer is providing possible methods of killing his opponent), and when he finally decides on a plan, Impetus loses his life a second later. The battle computer's job is precognition, and it does that perfectly. The real question is whether Midnighter can properly act on the plans his battle computer lays out. If he can, he wins. If not, it's a shortcoming on his part rather than the computer's.

In comparison, the Spider-Sense provides precognition for a much, much shorter period of time, and it usually only tells the user that there's an imminent threat. Midnighter's battle computer has done that (there are showings where he detects incoming threats that even Apollo with his far superior vision and hearing couldn't detect) and elaborates on the threat's limits and capabilities. If you have a bunch of writers all lending their own creative vision of how a deus ex machina like Midnighter's battle computers works, there are bound to be some incongruities here and there. Midnighter getting hit despite his battle computer happens about as often as Spider-Man getting hit by slower foes despite his Spider-Sense. Doesn't mean the Spider-Sense doesn't work.

And the examples you provided are kind of awful, honestly. Kev was a horrible story where the entire Authority jobbed to a guy with no powers and a special gun. On the pages right before Kev kills Midnighter, he slaughters Apollo, Hawksmoor, Engineer and the rest one by one with a bullet to each skull while they just gape at him. He even manages to kill the freaking Doctor, a universe-generating reality warper who can't die if he doesn't feel like it. The story was done more for comedic purposes than anything else. Assassin8 used a toxin that was designed for Midnighter to weaken him, and IIRC Midnighter's personality had a bit to play in his defeat over there ----- he played around to prolong the fight instead of ending it quickly. He did the same thing in the rematch. Again, that's on Midnighter, not the computer.

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#17 Edited by gumflabica (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

... umm..... May- no, no,..... if the circumstances were ri- no........ umm..... Midnighter, because of doors. Crap! forgot no doors. ummm...... hmmm..... Midnighter could probably do it anyways, with his healing wand whatnot.

#18 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: And yet this directly contradicts him getting poisoned. If he knew he would get poisoned and pass out why touch him? Doesn't matter if he was playing around or not if touching was all it took to lose why do it?

#19 Posted by Saren (26014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@CitizenBane: And yet this directly contradicts him getting poisoned. If he knew he would get poisoned and pass out why touch him? Doesn't matter if he was playing around or not if touching was all it took to lose why do it?

In the next issue, Assassin8 takes down Engineer, Apollo and Hawksmoor one by one and Midnighter attributes that to a gigantic amount of prep and readiness on his part. The whole thing was one large plan to take down the Authority. He'd prepped to defeat each of them and was able to evade intruder detection by both the Engineer and the Carrier, as well as the Doctor's fifteen senses. It's possible he'd prepared a counter for the battle computer so that the nerve toxin wouldn't register.

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#20 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 Not sure how that scan showcases that spider sense was working there? I don't see any of the trademark art showing spider sense going off of any dialogue referencing it?

#21 Posted by Saren (26014 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: There are Spider-Sense lines around Pete's head.

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#22 Posted by jashro44 (23683 posts) - - Show Bio

IIRC Kaine was going to toss Peter off a building in that scan. I think spider-sense went off in that scan because kaine was going to toss Peter. I don't think it went off because of Kaine I think it went off because of the fall itself personally. I recall an indecent of Kaine sneaking up on Ben no problem and Ben stating his spider-sense doesn't work.

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#23 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5213 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way.

#24 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@BringnIt: There are Spider-Sense lines around Pete's head.

I see that now; could not make it out on my phone. Still, I tend to think jashro44's explanation is correct, although to be honest I did not enjoy that era of Spidey comics and read it somewhat haphazardly.

#25 Posted by laflux (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

@CitizenBane said:

@BringnIt: There are Spider-Sense lines around Pete's head.

I see that now; could not make it out on my phone. Still, I tend to think jashro44's explanation is correct, although to be honest I did not enjoy that era of Spidey comics and read it somewhat haphazardly.

The Nineties was a jarring time..................

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#26 Posted by dondave (38780 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Strider92: There's an issue of Midnighter's ongoing (#7) that's devoted entirely to showcasing how the computer works and how he views life in reverse. It shows him every possible way a situation could go, for better or for worse, and then Midnighter picks the ending he wants and follows the route to achieve it. That's the best case scenario. Worst case, if he's fighting someone completely out of his league like Helspont or someone like that, it shows him a million different ways he could die and nothing he does changes that. In Morrison's run on the Authority, there was one scene where Midnighter's computer shows him what would happen if he killed the army facing him, right down to the political consequences and the TV reports of what he had done.

How far down the line is vision like that? Days? What would you call that, if not full-blown pre-cog? It's hard to tell exactly how much of Midnighter's ability to exploit a opponent's weaknesses is battle smarts and how much is his computer, but he's been shown to pinpoint and take advantage of physical weak spots (like when he whacked Apollo and made him bleed) and flaws in their fighting style (like when he took down Engineer while explaining that she had horrible aim at close range, especially when she was in a rage). Assuming that's his computer at work, it's obviously telling him how to win. In another fight (against a speedster called Impetus), Midnighter mutters several of the battle computer's plans under his breath while Impetus is running towards him, giving the impression that he's seeing which of them would work and which of them wouldn't (at one point he says "No, that won't work", which suggests that his battle computer is providing possible methods of killing his opponent), and when he finally decides on a plan, Impetus loses his life a second later. The battle computer's job is precognition, and it does that perfectly. The real question is whether Midnighter can properly act on the plans his battle computer lays out. If he can, he wins. If not, it's a shortcoming on his part rather than the computer's.

In comparison, the Spider-Sense provides precognition for a much, much shorter period of time, and it usually only tells the user that there's an imminent threat. Midnighter's battle computer has done that (there are showings where he detects incoming threats that even Apollo with his far superior vision and hearing couldn't detect) and elaborates on the threat's limits and capabilities. If you have a bunch of writers all lending their own creative vision of how a deus ex machina like Midnighter's battle computers works, there are bound to be some incongruities here and there. Midnighter getting hit despite his battle computer happens about as often as Spider-Man getting hit by slower foes despite his Spider-Sense. Doesn't mean the Spider-Sense doesn't work.

And the examples you provided are kind of awful, honestly. Kev was a horrible story where the entire Authority jobbed to a guy with no powers and a special gun. On the pages right before Kev kills Midnighter, he slaughters Apollo, Hawksmoor, Engineer and the rest one by one with a bullet to each skull while they just gape at him. He even manages to kill the freaking Doctor, a universe-generating reality warper who can't die if he doesn't feel like it. The story was done more for comedic purposes than anything else. Assassin8 used a toxin that was designed for Midnighter to weaken him, and IIRC Midnighter's personality had a bit to play in his defeat over there ----- he played around to prolong the fight instead of ending it quickly. He did the same thing in the rematch. Again, that's on Midnighter, not the computer.

Very Informative

#27 Posted by Wyldsong (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Got a question for you here. I have researched a bit on Midnighter, and I am not trying to go any particular way with this in regards to battle computer versus spider-sense, but are there any examples of Midnighter fighting a precog?

#28 Posted by Nefarious (21869 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Edited by Saren (26014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong: There are only two examples I can remember off the top of my head. The closest thing to the Spider-Sense that he's fought would be Nemesis' empathy. Nemesis gets forewarning when someone tries to attack her because she can sense their emotions: rage, fear, malicious intent, what have you. Unfortunately, when she and Midnighter fought, he was nerfed with a neural inhibitor before the match, so the outcome is ambiguous with regards to the battle computer's proficiency against precogs. In another case, Midnighter fought a clone of himself that had its own battle computer. They stalemated because neither of them could land a hit on the other, being able to see everything the other would do.

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#30 Posted by Saren (26014 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Nefarious (21869 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane: I see. 
#32 Posted by Wyldsong (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Alrighty, thanks for the intel=)

#33 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Once again, saying what needs to be said when I'm not here to.

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#34 Posted by TDK_1997 (15076 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way but the most reasonable one is that this is going to Midnighter.

#35 Posted by comic_book_fan (5837 posts) - - Show Bio

kain easly he is way to strong and fast and unlike spiderman he won't hold back or hesitate to kill.