Mid-Tiers vs Hulk!

Hulk's not world war Hulk levels anymore though. So he'll be affected. Plus Storm still has wind that she conveniently didn't use.

Anti-Venom will drain Hulk, whether it's resisted and it's only a little (hell it might only keep him in stasis/from getting stronger), or he completely turns him to Banner, that will affect this match greatly. Just saiyan.

@thedailybagel: Midnighters not the only threat. Hes one of the biggest yes (toe to toe with Martian Manhunter, defeating Red Lanterns, ect.) but not the only one. Toxin, Carnage and Agent Venom all have the speed to run circles around Hulk. They have durability to surive hits (Carnage laughs at getting decapitated and has speed to blitz the Avengers; Agent Venom has durability to tank hits harder than the hulk; Toxin is supposed to be >then Carnage and Toxin so he is a threat). Storm has the versitality to be a burden (Hurricane winds, lightning, ect.). Gamora is one of the most skilled woman in the Galaxy and can lay hard hits in with her attacks + speed. Anti Venom cant cure him but his powers will be annoying to Hulk and cause damage. Colossus isnt fodder, and yes even though Hulk broke his arms doesnt mean its gonna be easy.

Everything i mentioned above regarding each individual CANNOT defeat Hulk on their own at all. But together? Thats a tough fight for both sides. I hope you arent underestimating the team

Me and Tensor have disagree plenty times. Even on supermen . From injusitce to Brutal and then some others . Plenty other characters over the years .

@termiteone4ever: yeah tensor told me I just found it rare

@thedailybagel: @bluebeetle1: if you two do a CaV I want a tag

@laflux: Not saying you aren't right, since I don't see Hulk sweeping all rounds, however his battle cpu and pre-cog would need to start warning him before the fight starts, which isn't exactly how fights on the forum work. Plus to my knowledge the battle cpu is linked to his universe, not much unlike the World Mind, which Hulk doesn't belong to. I think Hulk thunderclapping is going to happen faster and more often (his combat speed is vastly underrated) than Midnighter reacting to use doors. I can see it happening, but Hulk is walking away with 6 or 7/10. That is the only chance the team has, no doors is no victory.

Don't know why people still think Anti-Venom can drain him, Darwin couldn't, he'll no one ever has.

@granitesoldier: SIlver surfer has drained hulk before. So did proxima midnight.

@jashro44: OK so two guys WELL above Anti-Venom have, and it wasn't any time recent that I can recall? Anyway Anti-Venom went dry healing Spider-Island so we know he's got definitive limits. And if draining Hulk needed power cosmic? Brock isn't pulling it off, which is the real point.

I agree I was just saying hulks been drained. The silver surfer instance is old. Incredible hulk volume 2 issue 250 IIRC. The proxima midnight thing was recent and during infinity.

Doors is the only way the team are going to win, but Mignighter can implement it fairly seamlessly. All he is has to do is think for a door to be in a particular location and it will be there. Plus Midnighter is still subtainstailly faster than Hulk. He was able to take down a Speedster which was punking Swift, who can process things in Microseconds, all without breaking a sweat.

And that's not how Midnighter's CPU works. He's had cannon crossovers with characters from the mainstream DC Universe where his battle computer still worked fine, not to mention I'm pretty sure the OP wouldn't want to put that limitation on Midnighter. And by that logic, guys like Classic Kaine would also cause conundrums as his Spider-Sense allows glispes into the future. Hell, the way Spider-Man's Spider-Sense has been developed would cause condrums (as of Marvel Knights). Midnighter's Battle Computer is constant perimeter in the way he fights. Its been able to predict his entire day before its begun, antiipate and predict entire wars and the news reports around them etc. It always give advice to him before he fights and to try and take that away is not paying true homage to him in a battle.

Its not like its a big deal, as even if Midnighter Battle Computer only works from the outset, if can provide millions of scenario's of how a battle will play out in an instant, so its not like he's heavily handicaped tbh.

And Surfer has Drained Hulk

I feel like it could go either way if we are talking Savage Hulk here, which is the mindless version of the Hulk that banner often turns into. It would also depend on how long the fight goes. Anyone who knows the Hulk should know that the longer someone fights him, his strength and durability increases due to his rage. In fact so does his healing factor and he also has limitless stamina. If the fight goes on too long, the Hulk should win, and I think that could be an issue.

Now if we are talking the Green Scar (World War Hulk), then the team has no chance against Hulk. His strength is enough to destroy the planet.

Nope, Doors.

@ancient_0f_days: What?

@jashro44: Proxima didn't drain him, she forced him into Banner but nothing indicated it was draining per se, more like putting too much on Hulk to handle, which actually has happened in the past. Even then, draining should be out of the equation given Hulk's feats resisting it.

That said, i think Hulk is still too much for them and his only concern should be Midnighter's Doors, that aside, he could one shot everyone here considering this is Hulk Asunder who was shaking the entire Earth with 5.6 Earthquakes effortlessly.

When we saw Banner turn back to hulk we see Proximas spear is connected to hulk, and Banner asked her how she did that implying she did something which isn't common to do.

To me it looks like draining all though I guess its never said to be draining. So I will just agree to disagree.

I think this team has some members that would seriously annoy Hulk, mainly Storm, Iron Man, and Midnighter, but has no real way to effectively put him down. Hulk should win if doors aren't in this.

I'll go with the team because of doors

@keenko: Storm can't harm him if this incarnation is implied to be as tough as Green Scar, Iron Man would get one shot'd and Midnighter... Well, yeah why not...

@jashro44 Doesn't seem like draining to me and i would have thought Banner would know if he was drained or not given the multiple times he's been drained or people has tried that move on him in the past and you're not allowed to disagree with me, ever. :P

@ghostravage: I agree that they shouldn't be able to hurt him but Storm and Iron Man could annoy him with blast while in the air.

Midnighter annoys him because well, he's Midnighter.

I have to slightly disagree about storm.

If the team can get hulk down for enough time then storm MAY be able to suck the oxygen out of hulk. Causing him to become incapacitated. But not really sure if thats something she would do with morals on. She may do it as a last result resort.

@trueking95: Hulk doesn't rely on oxygen since the 70s... The guy can fight in space for undetermined periods of time. Really, no one here is able to harm him besides Midnighter and that's assuming he just doesn't thunderclap everyone out the moment the fight starts given the numbers advantage they possess and Hulk's character to perform exactly this strategy when he's outnumbered.

Havok has drained Hulk.

@sovereign91001: The Spikes who were stellar drainers failed to drain Hulk for several days when he was willingly letting himself get drained. No one here can drain him for sure.

Really I remember reading a spiderman comic a couple weeks back where spiderman had captain universe's powers and accidently knocked hulk into orbit. Then rescued him because he couldnt survive in space after a while.

Also I believe hulk has shown to be able to hold his breath for small periods of time

There was a thread on this too.

@sovereign91001: When and under what context? Because I'm sure there's context to it (like the Apoc scan everyone loves) and like @ghostravage said the spikes in Planet Hulk failed to drain him after days of feeding on him.

@laflux: I think you're underrated Hulks speed and power of his thunderclaps. That will likely be the opener and it will put Midnighter on his ass, by everyone's accounts of Midnighter he's unbeatable and I know that simply isn't true. I haven't read the stuff with Midnighter in it but I know everyone always mentions his strengths but none of his weaknesses or how he's been beaten or fought. I think what I've seen on the forums though a thunder clap is going to stun him for a bit at the least. Surfer is far and above Anti-Venom and his abilities. Draining is off the table lol.

@granitesoldier: It was during an X-Factor/Incredible Hulk crossover during the 90's... I don't have the scan handy but I do remember the issue number, it was during Incredible Hulk 391.

Well that is quite the feat and if that's the case, it's probably not an option, I don't know enough about Iron Man's current armor to say if he has the draining tech some of his older armors do.

@trueking95: Was the Spider-Man comic a recent one? If you're talking about The Amazing Spider-Man #328 that was Joe Fixit who doesn't have an adaptive metabolism like Hulk's other incarnations. As for your scan, that's from Incredible Hulk #90 which is the 2nd issue of a 3 issue story arc with Hulk fighting in space. Your scan is out of context though, it's true that Hulk was using oxygen in the precise moment but when he was restrained from oxygen he adapted in mere seconds in the same issue...

Gallery

Anyway, just for the sake of context, Hulk in the next issue totally obliterates the robot he was fighting on the moon, where there isn't any oxygen in form of gas to breath and still Hulk was more than capable of fighting without bother so assuming Hulk could just hold his breath for short periods of time is an overstatement let alone untrue, even then, im not implying Hulk is always able to perform in breathless states, but he surely adapts rather instantly to extreme situations like this scenario you're trying to exploit and it's only Banner subconsciously stopping Hulk's potential that somehow slows the adaptive process, he even implies it himself in Incredible Hulk #77 when Hulk created new organs from scratch...

So there's isn't anything stopping this Hulk from adapting instantly to the lack of oxygen considering Hulk Asunder no longer has Banner's persona on his brain, it was removed via lobotomy by Dr. Doom. Either way, i was mentioning Hulk was able to fight without oxygen since the 70's mainly because it was deliberately implied he could fight without oxygen in Incredible Hulk #158 (1972) when he was fighting Rhino in a speeding space shuttle while text boxes stated the fight would last for days, it worths to note, Rhino had a device that gave him oxygen, not the case with Hulk.

Hope this clears your mind mate.

@jashro44 said:

@ghostravage said:

@jashro44: Proxima didn't drain him, she forced him into Banner but nothing indicated it was draining per se, more like putting too much on Hulk to handle, which actually has happened in the past. Even then, draining should be out of the equation given Hulk's feats resisting it.

That said, i think Hulk is still too much for them and his only concern should be Midnighter's Doors, that aside, he could one shot everyone here considering this is Hulk Asunder who was shaking the entire Earth with 5.6 Earthquakes effortlessly.

When we saw Banner turn back to hulk we see Proximas spear is connected to hulk, and Banner asked her how she did that implying she did something which isn't common to do.

To me it looks like draining all though I guess its never said to be draining. So I will just agree to disagree.

Jashro is right on this one. It was Corvus who pressed the weight of his blade (made of some sort of star or something) against Hulk I believe during his and Proxima's double team on Hulk.

@sovereign91001: The scan you're looking for is from Incredible Hulk #391...

Havok never managed to drain Hulk completely and the fight was inconclusive. As for Iron Man's current suit, it is complete garbage and significantly weaker than all his other suits individually in my opinion, that said, it was deliberately implied the horrendous difference in raw power that Hulk and Iron Man have in Marvel NOW! days as proven in A+X #7...

Gallery

So Hulk literally one shot'd a Hulkbuster that humiliated Iron Man when his anger levels couldn't be lower... I think the instance is self explanatory and considering Indestructible Hulk has the same strength as Green Scar and Hulk Asunder given the 3 incarnations possess Hulk's recently confirmed permanent amp from Planet Hulk, this difference in strength is also applicable to the this match. I could post more feats of Hulk one shoting Iron Man-like armors like flies currently too but i think you got the idea :P.

Glad we could agree on the draining point.

@nimamindtricks: Nope, Proxima's spear was the weapon who had the weight of the star on top of Hulk, Corvus weapon is just a lance that could cut atoms and i disagree with Jash's point but neither of us could 100% prove our points due to lack of information by the comics part.

@ghostravage: That's a damn shame, I'm familiar with most of his previous armors and based on what you've shown that is a significant drop in power from the Bleeding Edge armor, that armor took shots from Hulk and Thor level opponents and kept on ticking. That's like dropping Tony back to the Modular Armor from the 90's. Ugh, I hope Superior Iron Man puts his power levels back to where they were a couple years ago.

@sovereign91001: It is a shame mate. It is.

@ghostravage: Just re read it and you're right it's proxima's weapon but I still think there was some sort of absorption going on.

Isn't her weapon supposed to kill almost anyone in a direct hit? Maybe since it's hulk, it just reverted him back? He looked shook up and questioned what had happened to him.

No one has said Midnighter is unbeatable. He just has a weapon which he can one-shot with is substaintially faster on the draw with it, and will given knowledge that its the way to victory. Furthermore a Thunderclap might not One-Shot Midnighter if we go by some of his feats, a Door Decap will end Hulk. And he has lost before. Midnghter is not going to beat a Superman type character because thier Speed is too much to employ such abilities. He would just likely be blitzed beforehand. Hence why when he faced Captain Atom he got beaten and when he was confronted with Helespont, all he saw was scenario's where he was going to get owned. Jack Hawksmoor has been able to fight him fairly evenly H2H (but he ended up losing) and tagged Midnighter after Midnighter said he gave him a free hit. Nemesis was able to mantain an upperhand over him in a fight. And both of those are Mid Tiers (Nemesis would beat Hulk in a fight due to equipment, but that's for another time).

So yea he does lose battles. But of those characters, they happen to have very impressive combat speed (Nemesis also has empathic skills and top tier fighting skills), plus he's teamed with Jack before. And even in the case of Jack, he was still able to door him into the site of a nuke zone. Hulk doesn't have that advantage. Even if his feats of combat speed have improved recently, he still substantially slower and that's going to cost him. If Hulk had some type of Pre-Cog/Telepathy, I would go completely the other way on this, as that's how Regis (a Brick that's IMO less impressive than Hulk) was able to beat him, as he knew what Midnighter was going to do and could react accordingly. But even in that case, Jack Hawksmoor was coming up to one-shot him by channelling the powers of multiple cities into him so its possible Midnighter was just running inference.

Pretty sure I've said twice now that Anti-Venom can't drain Hulk on this thread, espicially since he's linked to the Kosmos dimension, but I guess the third time is the charm. Me mentioning Surfer was just a correction out of prudence.

@laflux: What's the argument against Hulk spamming Thunderclaps again?

Pretty sure I've elaborated on that with GS.

@laflux: @ghostravage: Not really (on the thunderclaps spam, no cpu) considering Hulks outran explosions and stopped a plane that quite literally appeared directly behind a group of people he was ahead of. These are two recent showings off the top of my head. And his thunderclaps carry the force of a nuke, it'd put everyone on this team for a loop. Midnighter is impressive, not the best word but all I can think of, but while Hulk might not have Superman level travel speed he does have quite the reaction speed and I think he's quite quick on the draw for thunderclaps. Like I said he isn't winning all rounds, but I think he can slip by.

He's still not fast enough. The Outrunning explosion feat is a travel feat and frankly one I would expect, considering he can jump at hypersonic speeds. The same thing goes for an aeroplane, which doesn't even move at the bullet speeds stock level Street-Levers like Peter and Captain America have outpaced before.

And those feats still don't stop Streets from dancing around him with at least some regularility. His reaction speed is inferior to Midnighter's by a large margin. Hulk needs to clap his hands to unlease a Thunderclap, which might not even K.O Midnighter if we go by his high end showings (such as tanking a kick from a evil version of Mr Majestic). All Midnighter has to do is think of a door, and close it off (by thinking of it) and Hulk will be bisected, decapitated etc. And there are some instances where Hulk isn't even going to start off with a Thunderclap. Midnighter's CPU will tell him that the highlighted way is going his best/only way of doing things- and he'll do likewise. Midnighter neglecting to finish off fight in such a lethal manner is usually because he can afford to, and he loves to draw out a fight (which is partially why Zealot performed so well against him). The Lethalility of facing Hulk in open combat, ensures the appropriate action from Midnighter.

This is ignoring the fact that I don't think all of the members are going just be useless fodder, which only improves Midnighter's chances.

Is that a valid tactic for winning this battle? More importantly, has Midnighter ever used doors in this way against a foe before? I can't recall this hax move being put into play by Midnighter before.

@lvenger: No, but it would be funny as hell :P

N.B what are your thoughts?

@ghostravage: Current Hulk isn't as strong (minus the hax and PIS sun spear feat) or as durable as the Green Scar mate. There's no proof he can operate on the same level as Pak's Hulk did even if the core explosion does boost his strength. Current Hulk lacks the mentality and joint mutual cooperation between Banner and Hulk that made the Green Scar so powerful. At first, Current Hulk was suppressed by Banner so he was nothing more than a dumb beast. And Current Doc Green is suppressing Banner in his intelligent persona and whilst he seems more powerful, he hasn't matched the Green Scar's feats. So I fail to see how Current Hulk, whilst stronger than he was, is anywhere near the levels of Pak's Hulk.

Also people are now saying that Midnighter can win by creating doors all around Hulk due to his battle computer telling him that this is the only way to beat Hulk so you might need to address that one.

@lvenger: He could bisect Hulk using doors as he's actually done that before.

@laflux: Oh so Midnighter's done that before has he? That's the only way the team can win and if they can pull it off before Hulk spams thunderclaps and ground pounds, I'll give it to the team. Otherwise Hulk would win eventually.

@nimamindtricks: It was proxima who created the weight of the star. Corvus spear cut hulk IIRC.

@jashro44: True. I corrected myself above. :D

@lvenger: Current Hulk (Waid's Hulk) is actually more durable than the Green Scar and i don't know why Indestructible Hulk wouldn't be considered on Green Scar's level of strength if he has feats that put him around that level even having biographical entries stating the amp still exists within the continuity. Even if he doesn't have the same amount of feats as Green Scar, he should be as strong as him and as far as his appearances goes, he didn't have trouble at all with most people on his tier strength-wise and seemed significantly stronger than anyone and his strength was depleting all the energies of an abstract being holding him off, which in my opinion is a great feat as well... I still see them both on the same tier of strength even though Green Scar can exploit it a lot faster.

Doc Green is nothing but a blank space for me, i'm behind in Hulk issues and im not planning in buying books any time soon. However, im well aware of his feats even if i don't have the books myself. Either way, i don't know why "suppressing" Banner's persona would translate into Hulk being more powerful if Hulk's most powerful incarnation is actually in sync with Banner's persona, namely, Green Scar. Unless feats proves otherwise, suppressing Banner is actually inferior than having Banner in charge, not to mention, there has only being 3 times where Banner's persona has been in charge of Hulk's powers, namely Zen Banner, Banner Hulk and Green Scar, meaning all the other incarnations are different personas.

As for Midnighter... Why can't Hulk just thunderclap multiple times? It's in-character for him to do it if he's outnumbered.