Michael Demiurgos vs Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet

I say Michael wins after all he is half of the presence and he is the infinite power of God

Demuirgic power > Infinity Gauntlet

Michael wins.

Yea i thought so just wanted to see other's opinions, Demiurgic power is God's power, its the spark that expands forever, ocean of power with no shore

What are his feats using said implied power?

Michael created a blast that put out enough energy for lucifer to shape a multi verse from it

Anyway this one probably ends in a stalemate considering the incomplete gauntlet no selling the full power of the nullifier

They can't really hurt each other

if anything this is in the IGs favour considering michaels lack of durability feats and his eventual death at the hands of lucifer

He used it to create the dc multiverse which lucifer then gave shape to

he could have ended the war in heaven at the beginning with a gesture

the demiurgic power is the word of fire that builds and breaks, meaning he can break/destroy anything with it

he destroyed 2 angels in vertigo with a gesture

in wolf beneath the tree he blasted lucifer with it and hurt him, lucifer who previously tanked a miltiversal big bang without a scratch

All in all Michael is God's infinite power, something the infinity gauntlet is not and it is way below God's power

Michael wins

@theclassicion:

1.He didn't create the " DC multiverse"

2.Thats a statement not borne out by yknow ....getting imprisoned for the next 10, 000 years

3. Another statement not borne out by anything

4. Angels in vertigo vary wildly in power. Upto an including getting killed by a .....rock.a big rock dropped on them

5. Lucifer was already hurt and blinded by the journey and ended up killing Michael anyway

and oh in the immediate aftermath of getting "hurt" , he casually played around with universal energies

6. Infinite power by itself is contradicted by a variety of things not least of him failing to keep gods creation from unravelling with his own power, thereby by very definition NOT being infinite since there's a thing he can't pull off

that and his power unleashed created a multiverse that was by itself not infinite , as specifically noted in the last issue

Also you need to read up on the infinity gauntlet.

the gauntlet, the original gauntlet is easily in Michaels league if not above

He IS God's power, nothing below The presence can subdue him. He created all power beneath him, that automatically gives him a limitless arsenal. God chose him as his second.

Michael has the infinite power of creation

michael demiurgos spark that expands forever, ocean of power with no shore, the words of God himself, u see michael IS power

Michael > IG

michael + lucifer = GOD ........... michael is the infinite power of god and lucifer is the infinite will of god

So this means either one of them is > the infinity gauntlet

God gave them power as GREAT as his own, something which the infinity gauntlet is not even close to being

So then no actual debate here, just one sided statements

Right.

Pretty much.

well in other threads here on the vine it has been established that lucifer morningstar is on par if not above the living tribunal, and LT is above the gauntlet,

and michael is equal in power to lucifer,

so this means michael > IG

@theclassicion: why don't YOU try to establish that Lucifer / michael is above the gauntlet , given that you know, you madr this thread( apparently only to talk about how great Michael is)

personally I don't see anything that puts lucifer above The Gauntlet

as far as debating goes, if you are going to ignore various instances of Michael showing less than infinite power while talking about statements and not feats, then its hardly worth debating at all

FYI, at a VERY basic level, if Michaels power were truly" infinite", he wouldn't have been killed because .....infinite power. by definition.

they were weakened when God left creation, Michael died because he gave Elaine his power if he had not done that all of creation would have been erased and michael would reform

I am just trying to show that the power of the 2 archangels is beyond the infinity gauntlet the power the presence gave them are beyond and higher than the infinity gauntlet lol thats all

God gave them power AS GREAT AS HIS, read my scan above this alone shows that their power >>>>>>>>>>>>>the infinity gauntlet

Lucifer and Michael. They both possess one half of what makes the Presence God. Here's the biggest problem: from what has been shown, with Lucifer and Michael at their peak, they can't be destroyed. Lucifer has took on creation destroying blasts (creation including multiple universes) and survived without so much as a flinch. Michael can do the same, and can keep reforming so long as he has energy, which is always. Now, in the context of their continuity, they are the creme de la creme. They cannot be killed outright

The infinity gauntlet does not have michaels level of power and infinite demiurgic power, and it is a weaker reality manipulator than the lightbringer. lucifers limit is that he can not make something out of nothing on a mutiversal scale, same goes for michael, lucifer's power and will is such that he can warp the infinity gauntlet away lol

Lucifer's ability to manipulate all of creation limitlessly is far more than enough for him to be a match for anyone under and TP. Notice I said WITHOUT LIMITS. Lucifer's Infinite Will can be used to will himself the ability to create something out of nothing. That's the point of being a Divine and Supreme reality warper. He IS God's Will, he can will himself to virtually have no limits.

essentially speaking lucifer morningstar can warp reality on a scale more than the infinity gauntlet or any other marvel or dc character, cuz he is the infinite will of god and this allows infinite reality control and manupulation which is equal to even god's own as the scan says God gave them power as great as his

either one of the archangels > IG

Nice breakdown, thank you. What was the premise of Michael's death at the hands of Lucifer?

Micheal.

Michael stomps

micheal easily

@theclassicion:

you completely missed the point

lets say after god left creation, they were reduced to 0.0000000001% of their previous power levels

You know what 0.000000000001% of infinity is? Thats right. Infinity

if you are then going to make statements about michaels "infinite power", you either don't understand the concept of infinity, or you are too biased to care

nah. Michael , he of " infinite power" was by his own words ......dying BEFORE he transferred his power to Elaine. His infinite power was totally not enough to save him from dying or heck even being injured

which is a hilarious concept for someone of " infinite power"

also there is literally no proof of michael resurrecting under his own power. Especially when the first time he made a "deal" with lucifer and we literally see lucifer waving his hand and.....*poof* recreating Michael

Also you act like "God" in lucifer is unequivocally the God of the DC universe. Which is an ......interesting statement to say the least considering everything from The Primal Monitor , to the Source, to Synnar to Grant freakin Morrison

The rest reads more like some weird reverse bible thumpers rant about the devil rather than the wiki copy paste job that it is

you also said that lucifers more powerful than any marvel character and once again completely refuse to get the concept of the word " infinite" that you are so fond of using

so no, Lucifers power is neither infinite, nor is he more powerful in terms of feats than say, the Beyonder or the freakin writer ( TOAA)

considering the presence himself notes hes shaped by the actions of beings more powerful, your statements don't particularly hold up well

especially when you add " lucifer can create something out of nothing"......which is just FACTUALLY INCORRECT

seriously that's his one limitation

also as I said, you need to read up about the gauntlet

the original gauntlet, while incomplete, completely redirected the full power, no ambiguity about it, of an artifact that has destroyed and recreated the multiverse

I don't see how lucifers particularly above that, especially when his best feat is a statement from a graphic novel, that contradicts the original series describing a universal level blast

Nice clarification and breakdown, helped me lots. Much appreciated.

@thegrayghost: Presence is still omnipotent.........

Meaning what? How does being effected by external sources affect his influence as an omnipotent being?

Bolded what you just said someone in the post just said he was created by external forces.........but if we all remember fulcrum=Toaa......which makes no logical sense.

I don't believe any one said he was created by external forces, merely that he was influenced by external forces, two very different concepts/ideas!

@lordraiden: >_> ok......

@lordraiden: @beyondergod: He first stated no one can be their own creator. That is not possible, so he was breaking the forth wall. Anyway, the logic is flawed; being created by others =\= you yourself is not omnipotent. There is no rule saying you have to be your own creator first.

Anyway, this thread should be locked, Michael is apparently banned because he is second to his creator, so there is no way of determining his power, but from his two best feats (preventing creation from fading and can one shot and erase creation, he is far above the infinity gauntlet on levels that is just ridiculous) @saren:

I tell people he broke the fourth wall thousands of time but they say no....thank you for the help!

@beyondergod: No problem, it is quite funny seeing people make up their own little facts. Saw one guy said something about 0.00001% of infinity like power levels are numbers! It is not so hard to understand fading and reduced are two different concepts; one affects the amount of power within you, the other affects the power output, the amount is still the same but the damage level and stuff are all affected. Like, a person being reduced to a ghost. Also, Michael HOUSES the demiurgic power, which is completely different from BEING the power so he still could be killed, but being able to be killed and actually killing him are two different situations too.

@saren: @god_spawn@jedixman a banned thread. reason; under the weird, but understandable second to creator rule

Michael didn't one shot anything

his dying blast was enough to create a multiverse in the infinite void

this did NOT fill up the void as specifically stated in the last comic. Hence the size of said " creation wiping blast" was not " infinite" or whatever people are going for here

this blast did not wipe out , once again the only thing confirmed to be infinite in the series, the Void

Universes and dimensions outside the void, were completely unaffected by said blast

so in summary, Michael created a creation wiping blast with his dying burst

the INCOMPLETE IG easily redirected the full blast of the a multiverse busting object

so no, I don't see how one showing is particularly above the other, unless you refuse to altogether acknowledge the IGs feats

As far as Michael (failing) to stop creation from falling apart goes, when users of the INCOMPLETE Gauntlet do things like merge different univereses with a thought, whilst in a different universe, and literally stop the 616 universes reality from falling apart while missing the very gem that controls reality, while the user is not even in complete control of the gauntlet, heck yeah that makes the IG better than michael imo

seriously is it just me, or did people stop reading anything about the IG after the thanos bit?

Presence being below someone by definition makes him NOT omnipotent whereas both the fulcrum and TOAA were shown as personifications of writers as far as that goes

@thegrayghost: His dying (then reviving) blast was enough to erase creation seeing as when the presence was gone, creation was fading; first was weather, then power, then emotion, then will...Michael was able to renew it. Also, his power is basically the same thing, so he had to be rushed out of creation or lucifer states, it would be sudden.

The void is the canvas, the primal monitor. There are infinite creations, not just DC, so filling it is impossible, so I do not know what you are getting at.

In the primal monitor, distance =|= time, and the blast was only on the edge of DC, not within the void, where reality does not exist.

He was not failing, they were going to destroy creation from the root, so he had to go there to prevent it.

Anyway, the presence is not below anyone, see my post.

Your entire post was borne out of ignorance, judging power by omniversal (all creations including marvel, image, and even tiny ones created by doodling) standards which even TOAA can not do (can he affect narutoverse? Ridiculous.).

Seriously, if you want to se just how wrong you are, we can do a CAV about it.

@thegrayghost: Note my post was rushed; I am in English 2, period 4. So if you agree, we will have to do it either tonight (it is 11:46 pm) or tomorrow

Post still on?...........

@van_cere: no Michael was NOT able to renew it once Fenris made his move

Thats kinda the point

Since various people are claiming Michael has infinite power, him not filling up the void would be the contradiction here, yes.

as you yourself felt inclined to say I was using numbers to describe "infinity like power" with numbers , I must ask again why his " near infinity " power didn't fill up the void

you talk about me talking of 0.0001% of infinite power in terms of numbers

infinity is not a number, its a simple concept that at a very basic level means limitless power

If michael had limitless power, he wouldn't be drained/ strained/ hurt or killed by literally anything

Its a simple enough concept to get

hardly any character in fiction or real life has infinite anything. Even PR Beyonder, the most OPd of OPd characters expended energy in killing Death which is impossible for an infinitely powerful being

And other than that, there are nothing but statements about Michaels power. Hey its not like various IG users don't go around proclaiming themselves as omnipotent.

Difference being im using actual feats instead of statements

You on the other hand among others, keep casually throwing around terms like infinity and omnipotence without dealing with the consequences of said statements

There is literally no relation between the void / the presence and the primal monitor beyond your speculation about the same

Stop making up your own theories. Scans or issue nos of these statements of yours

My post was actually a comment on michael busting out muktiversal power which he totally did, as opposed to the others here babbling about his omnipotent power which he didn't show

Failing to destroy the void/ and or various other dimensions from the same series is proof of that.

so yes he totally showed multiversal power. And yes the INCOMPLETE gauntlet totally no sold multiversal power

Thats how you compare feats.

@thegrayghost: your missing the point. i hate wasting my time, so let us do a CAV, and have judges because your entire post was entirely useless for i have answered every single one of them, using feats and facts. i can just copy paste both my posts, but i really doubt you will not ignore them again so...

come on, CAV. that is how i challenge myself, and also how i humiliate people who can only see when entire groups of people vote against them.

@thegrayghost: anyway, if you win, you can say you won against the expert in vertigo. something like that can really your ethos lol though i have debated you before when i was not as lazy as i am now, only doing stuff that has meaning, and as i remember, you lost.BEYONDERGOD this will be fun/

@the_grey_ghost U just can't admit that the archangels's power surpass the gauntlet can u? michael or lucifer is above the gauntlet easily

God gave them power as great as his own which means they >>>>>> the infinity gauntlet

Michael's power is infinite

They learned from God! he taught them personally that alone shows that they >>>> the gauntlet again

And yes the presence or Yaweh or God is omnipotent in vertigo he is the God of the covenant he is the equivalent to our jewish God

So there u have it God's power and powers as great as his which he gave to michael and lucifer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the infinity gauntlet, BY FAR

Michael's power is the word of fire that builds and breaks....meaning he can destroy the infinity gauntlet with but a gesture lol

lucifer morningstar's will and shape/reality warping is infinite and is beyond that of the infinity gauntlet, cuz he is the infinite will of god something the IG is not, so he has endless reality warping that is beyond those of the IG he can warp the gauntlet away, Michael is Gods infinite power again something the IG is not and is way way way below, mike can destroy the IG with a gesture......God gave michael and lucifer power as great as his own either one one of them solo the gauntlet

Again God, Michael and Lucifer are wayyyyyyy above the IG

Michael

@van_cere: 1. I have never actually debated anyone on a CaV before so I don't think I "lost " there you to before

2. I don't recall debating you . What topic would that have been btw? Could be that my memory is fuzzy but I generally recall people i have exchanged anything more than a couple of sentences with

3. What pray do you feel the point of your post was?

If you can say show me any relation between the presence and the primal monitor on panel, from an actual comic instead of speculating , maybe there would have been a point

other than that, its just you bandying about terms like " infinity" and " omnipotence" withcasual disregard for consequences

No , I don't really do CaVs. If you have an actual " point" to make it, you can make it here just fine. If its reasonable of course id listen to it

Unlike you , ive actually read both the series and arcs, and am aware of both of their " feats" . You on the other hand only seem to be on a vendetta to prove " vertigo is the best"

Other than that you mentioned some feats namely Michaels creation wiping blast

which is totally a thing im fine with

what im not fine with is you ignoring the IG no selling the full power of an object that created and destroyed the marvel multiverse

While the IG itself is incomplete

And heck if you want to get into details, by your admission the infinite void is impossible to fill. But the marvel multiverse is actually described as infinite multiple times

not Thatreally care beyond a particular point( they are both multiversal) , but you would do well to note stuff like that instead of harping on about Michael

Michael was visibly exhasuted by the effort to keep creation from falling apart. He failed anyway when Fenris attacked

The IG stopped reality from falling apart and restored it to its former state in the 616 universe, all the while , while lacking the very gem that controls reality

So if you stopped your biased rants for a moment and actually compared individual feats for what they are you will find Michael isn't really above IG

if you feel there is a better feat for Michael that I might have missed out on, feel free to post it and I will go " yes this feat is better than the IG " or " no it isn't" depending on it

instead of which if you keep acting like " Mike so infinite" and " The presence and primal monitor are totally connected , based on nothing at all" , there really isn't much point debating with you

Edit: I guess its also worth noting you ignoring people like the source, who have their own arcs where they are the powersource of the entire DC universe/ omnipotent ( ha yeah right) or someone like GEB or synnar or any of the dozen " Gods" DC has popped up with over the years

@thegrayghost: ah, so you are not stubborn. or ignorant. good.

i do not have time to actually counter the arguments fully, but for now i will just arrange them, and squeeze out your main points.

• show me any relation between the presence and the primal monitor on panel, from an actual comic instead of speculating

i never said there was any relation, you are either putting words into my mouth, which is a desperate tactic, or was just confused and did not read my post at all. i hope it is the latter for at least disrespect is better than THAT.

• the infinite void is impossible to fill. But the marvel multiverse is actually described as infinite multiple times

well, the DC creation is obviously infinite too, (mainstream, side creations, heaven, hell, purgatory 'contains rejected creations, infinite realms, universes and such' so even one place is beyond infinite, like marvel) but this is something else entirely. as i have said (and obviously you did not read, i feel insulted) and i now quote

The void is the canvas, the primal monitor. There are infinite creations, not just DC, so filling it is impossible, so I do not know what you are getting at.

DC and Marvel are both infinite, obviously, in a comic, story, sense. i mean, i can draw something on a piece of paper right now, and make the place a multiverse. the primal monitor is the canvas which all stories are drawn, so nothing, can fill it. all amounts, in the end, to zero. to quote lucifer.

• Michael was visibly exhasuted by the effort to keep creation from falling apart.

this i forgive you, as i did not tag you when i explained it, but here, my previous post

0.00001% of infinity like power levels are numbers! It is not so hard to understand fading and reduced are two different concepts; one affects the amount of power within you, the other affects the power output, the amount is still the same but the damage level and stuff are all affected.

michael was not exhausted at all or he would not have tanked the blast that destroyed the voice of God with only scratches. maybe you were talking about when he was fighting his brother. well, the presence left creation, and it affected their power, so obviously they were in bad shape after journeying to the place where creation started, which as you know, requires sacrifice. i mean, even Elaine got up easily. the preventing creation from fading when weakened part obviously did take its toll, and lucifer did nothing BUT use up power. so many factors.

• He failed anyway when Fenris attacked

there is something called PIS, and the next part of the story was a combo of that and pure bad luck. and even the rarely used CIS:

lucifer was barely conscious, and was suddenly possessed by the very soul of fenris. how can you use will if you are unconscious? but he was not, so this part is obviously PIS; someone who shapes creation, and snuff out lives creations away with only his will gets possessed? now, lucifer attacks michael, who was trying to fend him off and, at the same time, plead him to snap out of it, gets picked up and destroyed by another full power blast of the lightbringer flames, does not even try to defend himself when he has done nothing but threaten lucifer before? this part is CIS.

• The IG stopped reality from falling apart and restored it to its former state in the 616 universe, all the while , while lacking the very gem that controls reality

a universal feat? impressive.

• its also worth noting you ignoring people like the source, who have their own arcs where they are the powersource of the entire DC universe/ omnipotent ( ha yeah right) or someone like GEB or synnar or any of the dozen " Gods" DC has popped up with over the years

no it is not. creation stories are quite annoying both in DC AND Marvel. it was stated in swamp thing trials of fire that the presence created creation, the original source was the source of all gods, and concepts, and the only thing it could not do is defeat its creator the presence, synnar was created to make creation before getting beaten by everyone in heaven and hell and all forces from other places.......there are actually more.

i can not explain any of that, i doubt even people at DC can, but they have all shown power enough to create DC creation, so that is enough for battles forum.

and this is not about the others, even though the presence stated he made creation untold number of times, so maybe it was just that; they all made the same creation, but the presence rewinded things when creation ended, and started all over again, with a new creator. (wait, that actually is a good one, so forget the i can not explain that part)

even though all this is irrelevant to the fight, maybe we should concentrate on feats, on which case you have only given one, which is the universal repairing feat. though that one you gave was kind of different from the one i heard, can you give a scan to show us that?

Why's the OP debating in his own thread?????? If he wanted to debate he should have just posted on the caV thread

@nighthunder: he should just do his own research @thegrayghost: there, all done.

@theclassicion: seems he can not, he will not even do a CAV about it, i have seem him many times, each time he rules against the DC character when it was quite apparent to everyone it is the other was around.

he lowballs and sometimes 'forgets' other evidence. and never gives any reason why the characeter he is rooting for actually wins, that is his style

Michael no doubt did you see what he did to the spectre he layeth down the smack.

Michael FTW!

@primebonnick: twice, without resorting to the demirugic power!

Are you a huge fan of Michael and Lucifer?