Michael and Lucifer runs a gauntlet

Fair enough

There was a scan of Thanos with the heart of the universe, if it was actually the IG then that still doesn't matter, it's an easy mistake to make.

But could you not actually have asked me instead of making your own judgement. I mean if someone provides a scan in your behest, I think you should only say the scan is incorrect if you know there the scan is coming from.

It wasn't taken out of context at all. Just because he was unsure that he was more powerful doesn't mean that it is close, just that he clearly isn't omniscient. He knew he was more powerful anyway though so that doesn't matter.

Friend, if there are 2 characters, A and B. B thinks he can challenge A, but A is unsure if he could defeat B. A then has to sit down and decide if he can win. This is followed by A and B standing up against each other, both evidently powered up to such an extent that everyone around them (that included every abstracts, both major and minor) are blow away except those two. A then explains to B, I should be able to take the gauntlet from you but doing in trying to forcefully do so, I would end up destroying this unfathomably large reality, made up on 16 dimensions, that is said to be endless and encompassing the whole multiverse would be utterly destroyed. A then asks B is that the kind of god you are? This is followed by B saying you knew I am not that kind of a god and you are doing this to guilt trip me but alas I will not challange you.

The verdict is then pass but the IG works perfectly fine. In fact Warlock against treats Eternity like a child with Eternity unable to even compete with him. This is followed by Adam Warlock finally taking them gem outside the infinity gauntlet and distributing it to Infinity Watch.

It was only then IG stopped working.

Given all that, would you still say LT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IG.

I did post you the whole set of scans, I can do so again. These are rather common scans from 1 issue where Warlock and LT meet.

I am unsure to what you are talking about, but please indulge me. Please be kind enough to read my argument to you and anyone else on the same page and tell me where you've correct me? On what front?

I would like you to show me the paragraph that you supposedly corrected me on.

Try doing this one on one match with real numbers vs whole numbers

1 <-> 1.1, 1.11, 1.111, 1.1111, 1.11111, 1.11111 ...... all the way to infinity.

The same will work for every number you pick.

There's been up and down in regards to level of Infinity, There's Galileo, there's hilbert, but the idea of level of infinity on its own has never been disproven. Its his real vs whole number argument that you can't address.

Also since when does a theory have to be proven in science for it to apply to a comic book?

Yeah no that has not happened. They have attempted to bring back the infinite multiverse in DC more than once but has always failed. An example, zero hour where if Hal wasn't stopped Multiverse would have been infinite, but he was stopped and Multiverse was never infinite.

Heck for the most part DC had 1 universe. They tried to make it 52 during Infinite Crisis using Anti-Monitor's dead body but failed.

Its not.

Just like Lucifer has the Morningstar ability as long as his wings are entacted. Ability to manipulate everything, energy, matter, will etc.

Both are aspect from the Presence, why's one more powerful than another.

Heck Lucifer already showed he can Manipulate all of Micheal's power and used that to create the multiverse. It's already there.

It has nothing to do with more powerful. He didn't create the multiverse on his own because :

1) He wanted to do it outside of Yahweh creation, the only got that after Micheal was almost dying.

2) He cannot create a whole multiverse on his own. Not because he is not powerful enough but because he has restriction from Yahweh.

I can get you ask many scans as you want as well, which also called Lucifer "second only to his creator", it also calls Lucifer the most powerful of all the angels.

Yeah I have no interest on statement. Micheal could have ended the way at heaven with a gesture but instead he was captured, stripped of all his agenda, locked away in a pocket universe and sexually tortured and abused to a point there was no saving Micheal. What had to be done was let Micheal die and his energy unleaseshed.

That's what happened. I am going to take statement with a grain of salt.

Yeah I can't base Lucifer is just as powerful (i never claimed more powerful) despite Lucifer withstanding ALL of Micheal powers head on and being okay. In fact manipulating it. The only time the two fought, had both of them weakened, and Micheal was killed, Lucifer was the victor.

Also lets have a bet. I am free tomorrow. I can match as many scan you can bring forth saying all these for Micheal with scans from Lucifer. Wanna try?

@claymore1998:

Did you ever apologize to dawnone for falsely accusing him of lying about his dyslexia? That's the only thing keeping interested in this topic...

I mentioned it to you and you said nothing about it.

The simple matter of the fact is that LT > IG, you already agreed on this and it is pretty obvious. You can't say that there isn't much of a power gap simply because the LT was unsure whether they had the power to take it. And secondly it seems like the LT didn't want to take it because the whole point of the LT is to maintain balance and having a fight with someone to take the IG off them (even if they know they would win) is going to cause destruction and imbalance.

Read it yourself, go back and look at it, why should I bother to go back and bring up this point just for your benefit.

I'm done with this discussion, it is incredibly boring now and you are clearly trying to get some sort of reaction out of me.

The LT > IG, by how much who knows?

Just because person A looks at person B and is unsure that they can beat them doesn't mean that they couldn't with ease. It just means that they are unsure.

I gave provided a great argument before and the majority of people agree with me that they at least beat Thanos with the IG.

And before you start saying stuff like " what does my gender have to do with it" maybe you should stop being a hypocrite and apologise to that poor guy who you teased and accused was lying about his dyslexia.

I'm done here anyway. If you tag me again we are just going to go around in circles.

Maybe you presented your argument better but I'm sure that if I had the same experience on this site as you do that I would and you are of course also going to have biased followers, whereas I do not.

If you want to move on to a new topic of debate then send me a message but this is dead in the water as far as I am concerned and you are pretty much just going to be arguing with yourself.

@killemall: i can do that point being it wouldn't make sense for lucifer to be stronger than micheal especially with alll the mythology around it micheal kicking lucifer out of hell in the bible etc i think the writer would wan't to stay true to the common belief to make his story more credible in his potraying of his biblical thriller. In all their appearances micheal was always secure in his beliefs of his superiority over lucifer "do you wish to get kicked out of heaven again?" "speak quick lucifer or i call host you will not speak again"etc. same cannot apply for lucifer with micheal as he shows no superiority or aggression towards micheal once or showed some dominance over him just like he had replicated to everyone beneath him?if he was more powerful also that scan of lucifer withstanding micheals full on demuirgos blast can be put into two categoriespis or b due to micheal being weakened to the brink of death hence affecting the nature of the detonation pis due to micheal being able to hurt lucifer in the wolf beneath the tree while being heavily weakened so i take that scan with a "grain of salt" or lucifer would've no selled all of micheals attacks but he was burned by minor showings from micheal imagine the brunt of a full scale assault in a much more able body micheal dying was also pis as it just made no sense that someone who was tortured for billions of years would die from such minor injuries and display such poor stamina for someone composed of so much power. it was more a plot induced than a show of superoirity

Round 1: Thanos IG and Rune King Thor: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 2: Kismet and Rama Kushna: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 3: Beyonder and Molecule man (post retcon): Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 4: Destroyer, Kronos and Magus: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 5: Infinity, Eternity, Mistress Love, Lord Chaos and Nekron: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 6: COIE Anti Monitor, Galactus (fully fed) and Dominus: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 7: Spectre and Living Tribunal: Lucifer and Michael Stalemate!

Round 8: Thanos HOTU: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 9: Mr. Mxyzptlk and Superman Prime One Million: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 10: Pre Retcon Molecule Man: Lucifer and Michael Stalemate!

Round 11: Pre Retcon Beyonder: Lucifer and Michael Loses!

HOTU > LT and/or Spectre

Seems you dont read comics

LT > HOTU

HOTU=Universe Level

The Living Tribunal,Eternity and Infinity ALL were letting themselves be absorbed please actually read a comic before debating with me.

@gurban said:

@thebeyonders said:

@gurban said:

@thebeyonders said:

Round 1: Thanos IG and Rune King Thor: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 2: Kismet and Rama Kushna: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 3: Beyonder and Molecule man (post retcon): Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 4: Destroyer, Kronos and Magus: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 5: Infinity, Eternity, Mistress Love, Lord Chaos and Nekron: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 6: COIE Anti Monitor, Galactus (fully fed) and Dominus: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 7: Spectre and Living Tribunal: Lucifer and Michael Stalemate!

Round 8: Thanos HOTU: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 9: Mr. Mxyzptlk and Superman Prime One Million: Lucifer and Michael Wins!

Round 10: Pre Retcon Molecule Man: Lucifer and Michael Stalemate!

Round 11: Pre Retcon Beyonder: Lucifer and Michael Loses!

HOTU > LT and/or Spectre

Seems you dont read comics

LT > HOTU

HOTU=Universe Level

The Living Tribunal,Eternity and Infinity ALL were letting themselves be absorbed please actually read a comic before debating with me.

Want keywords?

• Non-Canon
• No affect on the multiverse
• Death wasnt made absolute

Even in the series it said a single universe

Its revealed here Lt,Eternity,and Infinity ALLOWED themselves to be absorbed.

Infinity basically TELLING of the event of thanos absorbing them as HUMILIATING because they were told to do so under a HIGHER command.

So read Marvels:The End and Thanos: Revelations BEFORE talking dude seriously i have done nothing but debunk you which is FUNNY.

They get to round 7, where the Tribunal stops them cold. Spectre is a non-factor

@thebeyonders: I don't think anything being discussed there had to do with the HotU arc. It had to do with the events in Infinity Relativity where two universes more or less collided and 616's survived due to Warlock dying while convincing Thanos to give up the power or something along those lines while the Warlock of the other universe took on all the energy of the other universe and got spit out into 616.

one has infinite power and the other can infinitely manipulate all creation = how do they lose against anyone in this gauntlet. spectre was stomped by michael so how will LT 2v1 beings which cant stand in some places since their very existence on that plane destroys it. as powerful as LT is he aint winning a fight against a guy who is constantly renewing all creation with his power (michael) and a guy who can tank a blast from the entirety of that power which could destroy all creation and manipulate it. lucifer makes MM cry the same way sentry made him cry when he showed him he had greater power (i knw this isnt the same mm power level) however the fight will literally be mm trying to make something happen and lucy saying nope.

One Infinity Gauntlet is above either of the brothers. However, together, if we go by assumptions, then they should get down near the bottom of the list.

@spambot: Already wrong bud as Earth-616 has no ties to the HOTU event and yes infinity was mentioning the HOTU event please read the series before commenting.

clears

Not really......

Actually Michael doesn't AMP Lucifer in any way if they already fight in per-existing neutral creation. Lucifer can't make something out of nothing, he can't create something in void. If they fight in an already existing universe, he can manipulate the universe any way he wants. Michael only comes a deciding factor if the fight takes place in void where there is nothing for Lucifer to manipulate. He can create anything he wants if he already is in the universe due to having infinite will. Void in DC is called what appears outside creations where nothing exists.

He doesn't need Michael when he has Omniscience and The will of God.

This is probably stalemate against Living Tribunal, I don't know why Spectre is in the same category as LT.

@sirneko: I've already seen every rebuttal get debunked. By feats, one IG is above either brother. Heck, one reality stone made two universes when it went haywire. That alone is more than either brother done on their own. The full IG is way too much.

If the two of them are together, then who knows how far they make it. We can really only go by statements and assumptions.

Added: Also, the Ig could just destroy all creation within the universe they are in too. Doom done this with a weaker IG, and Thanos wiped out half of creation with a snap of the finger.

What lol......Lucifer and Michael are MULTIVERSE enititew the IG is a SINGLE universe level device.

The original IG wasn't universal. In fact, it destroyed Eternity (who is multiversal) by a side effect. It also destroyed the Beyonder realm which is completely outside of the marvel multiverse.

The brothers best feat, even when they combined their power, was copy a universe.

You should read the 8 pages of debating. Claymore and Killemall already addressed everything you will say.

@thebeyonders: I own all of those stories and have read them all. I'm not sure you have though. Nothing you're saying is even being backed up by the scans you show. Infinity in your own scan is referring to what she and Eternity "just went through" which was the end and remaking of their universe in Infinity Relativity. Marvel: the end took place around 10 years earlier.

@marvelous_3212:

1. No eternity isn't multiverse.....

2. Beyonder realm? No......

3. Multiverse not a universe.

that's Claymore and Killemall their dispute doesn't affect me.

@spambot: I have actually and it can be 16262 years it wouldn't matter its still a reference to the fact Thanos ENDED and REMADE their universe and if it was 10 years later then why in Infinity Revelations they will mention thanks beating them? It seems its a matter how YOU take the CONTEXT.

So regardless as I stated before

HOTU is universe level it was stated and confirmed no need to keep this useless argument going.

@thebeyonders: Eternity is t multiversal? Lol please read through the many pages of this being explained.

Also, the IG has feats above universal as explained too. Please stop lol

@marvelous_3212: thanos cant destroy the beyonder realm. Pr- beyonder is entirely the beyond realm. For him to destroy is would mean.

Thanos with ig> beyonder

Eternity being "Multiverse" level would mean he is almost near LT level literally 3/5 of that power which he isnt.

IG isnt above universal anything as shown when HE thanos became the supreme being of a SINGLE UNIVERSE so please stop.

Hell go ask tom Brevoort and watch him prove me right.

Which is a laugh lol......a major huge omega laugh.....

You say you read it but do you not realize that Thanos recreated the universe in that same comic? Which is why Infinity makes reference to something "they just went through". You are grasping at straws to try and connect the HotU story to what is going on in Infinity Relativity, especially when events in IR are so obviously being alluded to.

Thanos destroyed it in one blast. Also, Beyonder has been retconned.

@thebeyonders:

Writer statements mean nothing. In fact, I can give you a link where Stan Lee himself says that galactus is the strongest being in Marvel.

Killemall has explained that Eternity's power is multiversal on more than one occasion. Here is a copy and paste from him:

Apart from this there are many other evidence that eternity is a multiversal entity rather than just universal:

1. Chaos King , the outer void of the eternity was capable of destroying 98% of marvel multiverse. IF its only 1 universe, how would the outervoid be limitless.
2. There is another being that represent the same outer void when Chaos King was well Chaos King, namely Oblivion, who is stated to be endless.
3. Abraxas , an entity born from the heart of eternity himself was able to damange multiverse simply by existing.
4. Watcher stating that the death of eternity would mean the death of all reality.
5. Beyonder in Secret Wars 2 explaining that all the abstracts are within the eternity , abstracts like Master Order and Lord Chaos have their own little universe.
6. Eternity himself has held 2 universe on the palm of each hand.
7. Phoenix, and entity which is considered a part of eternity himself has held universe in his hand. a universal entity cannot hold universe on the palm on its hand.
8. Stranger explaning that eternity is "all that there is".

Just to add to this. Entropy and Genis, when they took Eternity's power, were able to remake the multiverse. And if you want to think it was just a universe, well, at the beginning of this said comic is was stated how Eternity was multiversal.

Also, Dormammu was able to remake "all universes" when he had the power of Eternity. Heck, he even seen universes being destroyed and remade while he was inside Eternity.

Eternity is withing one multiverse, while the LT is in all of them simultaneously. Big gap in power.

This has all been explained already if you would just take the time to read through everything.

I already told you, it doesn't matter if Lucifer and Michael are together in the neutral universe. Lucifer needs his brother in the void, he can do anything he wants without Lucifer. Like you just replied to me without reading. You say that you have already debunked everything but you don't know the basics of their power if you say they are stronger together, they are not, unless the fight takes place outside of creation.

Lucifer wiped several creations which had multiverses that were contained in a dimension by just existing in that dimension.

What has IG offensively done that trumps Lucy alone? Creating universes doesn't help in a battle.

Clearly you cant read because i believe i wrote "Thanos ENDED and REMADE their universe." and also no its been connected no matter how you feel bruh.

@sirneko: Neither have done anything such. Killemall already explained that. Please read the debate. I really don't feel it needs to be explained again.

Michael and lucifer from what?

@marvelous_3212 said:

@jiraiya_sageofoil said:

@marvelous_3212: thanos cant destroy the beyonder realm. Pr- beyonder is entirely the beyond realm. For him to destroy is would mean.

Thanos with ig> beyonder

Thanos destroyed it in one blast. Also, Beyonder has been retconned.

@thebeyonders:

Writer statements mean nothing. In fact, I can give you a link where Stan Lee himself says that galactus is the strongest being in Marvel.

Killemall has explained that Eternity's power is multiversal on more than one occasion. Here is a copy and paste from him:

Apart from this there are many other evidence that eternity is a multiversal entity rather than just universal:

1. Chaos King , the outer void of the eternity was capable of destroying 98% of marvel multiverse. IF its only 1 universe, how would the outervoid be limitless.
2. There is another being that represent the same outer void when Chaos King was well Chaos King, namely Oblivion, who is stated to be endless.
3. Abraxas , an entity born from the heart of eternity himself was able to damange multiverse simply by existing.
4. Watcher stating that the death of eternity would mean the death of all reality.
5. Beyonder in Secret Wars 2 explaining that all the abstracts are within the eternity , abstracts like Master Order and Lord Chaos have their own little universe.
6. Eternity himself has held 2 universe on the palm of each hand.
7. Phoenix, and entity which is considered a part of eternity himself has held universe in his hand. a universal entity cannot hold universe on the palm on its hand.
8. Stranger explaning that eternity is "all that there is".

Just to add to this. Entropy and Genis, when they took Eternity's power, were able to remake the multiverse. And if you want to think it was just a universe, well, at the beginning of this said comic is was stated how Eternity was multiversal.

Also, Dormammu was able to remake "all universes" when he had the power of Eternity. Heck, he even seen universes being destroyed and remade while he was inside Eternity.

Eternity is withing one multiverse, while the LT is in all of them simultaneously. Big gap in power.

This has all been explained already if you would just take the time to read through everything.

Thanos never destroyed the Beyond realm so......i dont see why you state such a lie.

"Uses the stan lee stated this logic"

1. Stan lee doesnt work for marvel meaning his words are as useless as jack kirby WHO is deceased.

Killemall can explain whatever he wants but its not a fact.....Writers>>>>>.Users of a washback forum.

1. Thats a different event not the IG so invalid.

2. Thats not IG so invalid.

3. Thats not the IG so invalid.

4. Reality=Single aka Single Universe.

5. Cute and Beyonder was above them all so point means nothing.

6. LOL and LT held Megaverses in his doesnt mean anything.

7. Universal entity cant hold an universe entity?......thats dumb logic....

8. Ok?.......thats a character who we barely EVEN know.

If you take Dormammu then you are a full....he stated Eternity was the most powerful being in the multiverse soooooo if you believe that then this debate is over.

also........

LT literally stated a MULTIVERSE ETERNITY DOESNT EXIST as he is the so claimed MULTI-ETERNITY aka the EMBODIMENT of the MULTIVERSE.

Hehe reading this seems interesting =)

@thebeyonders:

Lets just make this simple. I can you Reed with a retconned IG destroy a universe, and I can show you Doom with one make a universe from scratch.
How about you show me Lucifer or Michael actually creating universes or multiverses under their own power. Go ahead, I'll wait.

After seeing how you handled business in this discussion, I'm glad we didn't have our debate lol

Done

@thebeyonders said:

Done

Hehe would you be kind enough to tell us where you got this from, friend. Hehe because any reply you from Mike Carey that was actually posted by him, will have a time stamp on it. That does not have a time stamp. There is also a blue dot thingy on top of mike carey's profile picture which is also would not be there had it been a genuine reply from Mike Carey.

Sorry to be sceptical, but perhaps you could give us a link to the page where Carey said so ?

@thebeyonders: I still don't think you have any grasp whatsoever of what occurred or actually read all of Infinity Revelation. I will just leave it at that though because I am done trying to convince people of their own ignorance on here. later bruh

ignorance? look in a mirror bruh.

@thebeyonders:

In this instance, it is the power of both brothers being used that created this one universe.

My first post on line 364 said:

One Infinity Gauntlet is above either of the brothers. However, together, if we go by assumptions, then they should get down near the bottom of the list.

I said from the very first post that the IG is stronger than either brother. Neither brother created a universe or higher using their own power. The IG has multiple times. In fact, Nemesis, the enbodiment of the Stones destroyed two universes in the blink of an eye. Heck, she also destroyed one universe in our universe, and one universe in the Malibu multiverse and everything in between them.

But even if you don't want to consider the very high showings.. like I said, we have seen an IG destroy a universe and remake one in the Fantastic Four run. The reality gem on its own when haywire and created two universes. Magus merged two universes, and Adam later took them apart.

About the writers statement, it is fake for many reasons. It has been debunked on another thread.

@claymore1998 said:

@thebeyonders said:

Done

Hehe would you be kind enough to tell us where you got this from, friend. Hehe because any reply you from Mike Carey that was actually posted by him, will have a time stamp on it. That does not have a time stamp. There is also a blue dot thingy on top of mike carey's profile picture which is also would not be there had it been a genuine reply from Mike Carey.

Sorry to be sceptical, but perhaps you could give us a link to the page where Carey said so ?

Its called go look through his twitter @ i aint your servant bruh.

@thebeyonders: Look bruh, its obvious you don't understand what occurred in the IR based on what you have said above. There is absolutely no way you actually read it all or understood it if you think Infinity was referencing the hotu story in what she said in that scan. Simple as that. Nothing you say will change my mind about this either. You were just desperate to make a point and used a scan you don't understand the context of.

@claymore1998: It's also over 160 character limit for tweets, and if you go to his history, that post is never shown. MysticMediv (or whatever his name is) actually took the time to do it lol

>Thinks he can tell me what i do and do not understand.

You have been debunked because this is from the infinity revelations where they referenced the HOTU if you cant put 2 and 2 together then thats not my fault you aren't educated.

The Living Tribunal,Infinity, and Eternity were all humiliated for a change to the UNIVERSE so before talking about others read the actual series.

@thebeyonders: Nothing I've said has been debunked because you don't even know what I believe. All I did was debunk a couple claims you made above. I am not getting involved in whatever else you are trying to prove here in this thread because as I've already stated its entirely obvious to me that you did not actually read the IR or understand the context of scans you are using from it. ie Don't try to prove to me you have any clue about it because you already showed you don't. You are just one of those viners who makes their own interpretations of scans whenever you feel like it to try and prove a point.

1. No if you read it clearly stated by Lucifer a MULTIVERSE.

2. the infinity gauntlet isn't above them in any way no matter HOW much you say so it isn't the truth.

3. Show us proof of nemesis feat and stop making statements.

4. Cute.....Lucifer tanked Michael MULTIVERSE blast so again you keep stating the same thing it doesn't make it true "blah blah IG destroyed a universe and remake one." thats very cute to a guy with Infinite Power and the other with Nigh-Omnipotent abilities.

5. Proof of this apparent scan being fake if you cant provide it then dont make a false claim.

@thebeyonders:

1) I can show you about 5 times it was called a universe. So even by statements, you lose.

2) Feat wise the IG's are above EITHER of the brothers. The feats speak for themselves.

3) There is a scan of her actually destroying the two universes. I have to find it. Until then, this will suffice seeing that it is more than either brother has done on their own. This is Doom creating a universe with a retconned IG:

4) He didn't tank a multiversal blast at all. Neither brother has shown to work at multiversal power.

5) It has already been brought up. The characters are over the 160 limit, the blue check mark to validate a user isn't there, this post isn't on the real Mike Carey's twitter account at all, and the genius that went through all this trouble to make this fake account even named himself Michael Carey. You can see @michaelcarey191 as the reply message.

I don't see a need debating anymore seeing that everything you are trying to bring up has already been addressed. I'm done. I won't reply to your message.