Mewtwo vs Jean Grey

She most certainly did as it was the point of Morrison's run. Jean by way of a secondary mutation had her tk returned stronger than ever to the point that it was regarded as a manifestation of the Phoenix without her tapping the force as she stated she was only allowing it to talk to her without replacing her. Like I said Death told Jean the Phoenix is her power and she is not a mere host, but an actual piece of the Phoenix given flesh.

If the OP doesn't give a version we go with current. Teen Jean is not current Jean just like teen Iceman is not current Iceman etc, because currently Jean is one with the Phoenix. Since this is a non-Phoenix fight we are using adult Jean minus Phoenix force feats and even without those she stomps Mewtwo and your presumptions about his featless powers.

@lordofallhumans:*sigh* It's to early for this Ok sure dude yea whaterever you say -_-.

I don't operate by your clock, if I see something I respond whenever I want. If you can't come up with anything other than your featless presumptions then don't respond, if it's "too early".

@lordofallhumans: No I only said because you started to get rude. If it's one thing I don't like when debating with people it's them being rude. I already explained my side calling my argument presumptuous? Yea that's rude and they aren't. I told you Mewtwo power levels are different from manga and anime however the writer wants him to be. I ONLY assumed that with the two mega evolutions his high level power increases to what? We don't know all we know is that the creators say he is way more powerful in his mega forms than normal. And I was trying to have an open mind and actually listen to what you had to say, but you calling my argument feat less and presumptuous is rude. AND I also changed my vote on who wins to Jean which OF COURSE you completely ignored. Sure you can respond whenever you want nobody said you couldn't -_- LOL you don't operate by my clock? DUDE WHAT!? lol have a good day.

Telling you to back up claims with feats is rude? Lol welcome to Comicvine, where a list of stats is cool as long as you can back them and you will be asked to back them. I didn't ignore you conceding, but I still decided to correct you on you saying Jean didn't evolve into Phoenix and what current character means. I always have a good day.

@lordofallhumans: OK yea all of that right there just confirmed to me you don't get it. And concede? To YOU? not really. Seriously lol haha

As much as I love Mewtwo, he cannot win against Jean. She is above him when it comes to TP, maybe not TK but certainly she has TP feats that dwarf everything Mewtwo has ever done. On the TK side Mewtwo has teleported landmasses the size of an island with ease and was controlling machinery complex enough to clone living things at the same time as he was controlling a freak, civilization endangering storm, and fighting Mew and others, he is a great multi-tasker and has great control over his powers. However I don't see any of those things helping him agains Jean, who can just mind-rape him almost instantly.

@stormphoenix:

I do get it, your sensitive. You conceded when you finally realized Jean wins, whether it was to me or the truth doesn't matter, all that matters is you realized you were backing the losing side.

@lordofallhumans: LOL no...no. Sensitive!? Ok? no. Conceded when realizing jean wins?...again no I just told you, but.....*sigh* ah forget it. .

BUT now it doesn't matter anymore the winner has already been decided.

Mewtwo destroys Jean Grey. even Dark Phoenix would lose to Mewtwo.

Mewtwo’s TK is honestly above Jean’s

Also we can scale Mewtwo off of Gardevoir who can open a black hole with psychic power

mewtwo

@noh8a: Mewtwo is nowhere near Dark Phoenix’ level of power. I don’t know who told you that an island level psychic can take on a universal level psychic, but they were wrong.

@emmafrostxmen: Rachel Summer has also formed black holes with her tk as well and Jean has stalemated Rachel in two occasions.

@pyrofn: that is obvious PIS

Jean has struggled holding up buildings on several occasions and even mentions that she “can’t hold it up forever”

Black Hole >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Building

@emmafrostxmen:You mean buildings earlier in her history? Before she started tanking island level explosions, holding together large chunks of Asteroid M going at terminal velocity, effortlessly lifting buildings underwater that were still full of Atlanteans while shielding herself and Gentle and maintaining a telepathic link? Or perhaps comparable to when she blocked a direct fire blast from the Phoenix Force as a teen, caused psychic fire to combust on the moon, and two children to float mid-air subconsciously while she was trapped in an illusion the Phoenix created after it wiped her memories?

Total PIS. Don’t use earlier versions of Jean failing for a current Jean who has come a long way since, especially since said building was the Empire State Building antenna, an antenna that weighed thousands of tons, yet Jean and Power Pack claimed that it was the momentum of the fall that was causing her strain, not the weight of the actual building.

@pyrofn: no I’m using current Jean lmao

She struggled to hold up a building

@pyrofn: go look at Jeans respect thread

Jen holding a tower underwater is less impressive than holding a building even though she was distracted. Go look up underwater physics. buoyancy and other factors slow momentum and weaken weight which in turn makes the feat unimpressive.

Jean is a thousand tonner with TK, but not open space time level at all

Black Hole >>>>>>>>> Jean nothing has ever shown me otherwise

Jean excels at TP, her TK has never impressed me.

@pyrofn: Also TK defense =|= Power

Jean has no feat close to putting her on the level of a black hole it’s PIS period and Rachel had no reason to go all out against Jean

@emmafrostxmen: I helped build that respect thread. I know exactly what’s on it.

Go look up how gravity affects water pressure and see how there are more factors at play than simply the weight of the building. Not to mention that Jean was holding another building and different debris as she held the very building we are talking about.

Jean is way more than a thousand tonner. Even the very feat you were referencing is Jean lifting thousands of tons, not A thousand tons. And I listed way better feats than the underwater one. The fact that you targeted that one specifically is telling.

I’m not going into a Rachel’s tk vs Jean’s tk argument. That is very debatable and I lean more Rachel than Jean when it comes to tk. But you are giving Jean way less credit than she should be alotted.

Thus far, you haven’t explained why Jean’s tk remains unimpressive after I mentioned these feats below. So, what if Jean’s telepathy excels her tk. That’s irrelevant to the conversation.

@emmafrostxmen: No, tp defense ≠ power. Tk defense is an entirely different entity than telepathy and requires enough power and concentration to withstand attacks. Unless you’re gonna tell me that any telekinetic can shield against the power of a white hole star, I‘d like to know exactly how telekinesis, a psychic energy used for affecting the physical world, would not equate to a certain amount of power needed to not break down.

And considering the situations Rachel was in, she didn’t have much of a choice. The first time, she held back. Even then, the second time was indeed Rachel going all out.

@pyrofn: I targeted that one because it was a terrible example of a good feat everything weighed less in water. Try weighing yourself underwater

I said “Jean is a thousand tonner” not Jean is a one thousand tonner. Lol they mean very different things. One puts her in a class that is one thousand-several hundred thousand as a range, and the other is just one number

Breaking space time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hundred thousand tons it’s not close. All you’ve done is show me Jean isn’t on the level of opening a black hole. Show me any feat that is close to a black hole? None are....

And why is that exactly?

@juiceboks:

Psychic is a “special move” which basically means energy attack.

Mewtwo’s Special stat= 154

Gardevoir’s Special stat= 125

That’s a pretty significant margin for Pokémon terms.

@pyrofn: no it doesn’t, defense =|= offense in the same way strength =|= defense

@pyrofn: In other words characters like Jessica Jones can punch much harder than she can tank even though the same “strong muscles” are getting hit

TK shields are a subset of abilities that fall under TK. You can be good at one and not the other

@emmafrostxmen: So, you want me to pull from Jean’s high ends? Alright.

@emmafrostxmen: As I do that, you can look at why discrediting the feat for being underwater is wrong.

@emmafrostxmen: Psychic is an attack utilizing psionic energy and has nothing to do with black holes. Base stat scaling is nonsensical for power in general otherwise Ninjask would be almost hypersonic given Pidgeot is mach 2 with a speed stat of 101 vs Ninjask's 160 despite the fact that Ninjask is barely FTE by it's Pokedex entry. Esoteric abilities and hax make even less sense for linear scaling (Pokemon like Lapras have telepathy despite possessing a significantly lower Sp. Atk stat than many Psychic Pokemon that don't). There are also countless examples of Pokemon overpowering others that on paper they never should, in all three media.

There's no reason to scale Mewtwo off of Gardevoir when they've never encountered one another.

Jean stomps

@emmafrostxmen: Juiceboks did a pretty good job on debunking the problem of scaling off of Gardevior, but I will still give you feats anyways.

Traveling to the inside of white hole star, Aka the other side and opposite of a black hole, where gravity is literally pushing out instead of sucking in.

Blocks an attack from Stranger

Blocks Jahf’s attack

Goes head-to-head with Nate Grey and Legion combined

Still, want continue the defense doesn’t equal power argument? Because I’m pretty sure blocking cosmic beings and traveling to the inside of a star counts as needing power to retain the shielding. No, it doesn’t make Jean as powerful as a star, but it completely debunks the idea of tk defense not needing power to defend oneself.

@pyrofn: shielding from black hole =|= creating one

One involves tearing apart space and time and the other involves withstanding it’s force

Tearing apart space time >>>>>> blocking immense gravity

Non of those feats stack up either

The scaling works. Psychic is TK in the Pokémon world. Mewtwo’s psychic hits harder than Gardevoir’s (fact not debatable) so Mewtwo scales off of Gardevoir’s black hole creating feat

@juiceboks: Psychic is TK. The Pokédex says “unleash all of its “psychic” power and open a black hole”. That’s clear cut tearing through space time

Mewtwo was stated countless times to be the most powerful Pokémon in the world. Gardevoir has no such statements

Mewtwo > Gardevoir by all in universe logic

Jean still.

@pyrofn: the game theory video you posted isn’t the same circumstance at all lmaooooo

The building is already underwater thus the water pressure aspect is removed. The water rushing in at Vader is filling up the ship at that depth which is why the water pressure matter immensely there

Jean!

@emmafrostxmen: Ugh. I’m talking about the water pressure on Jean’s shield. Jean isn’t being protected by an underwater building like Vader is. The video clearly states how the farther down you go, the more gravity is weighing down on you. Add the water weight and you have Jean’s shield taking water pressure around 915 meters down as she is carrying multiple things. It’s literally a multitasking feat and a lifting feat. And you want to say that it wouldn’t take power for Jean to maintain shields of these kinds of capacities.

Sheesh, I knew I should have given an explanation of the purpose of the video.

@pyrofn: yes you should have. When you post a video and hope it to explain an unspecified (building or shield) Jean feat it’s hard to understand

Breaking space time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wAteR prEsSurE

Jean stomps

@emmafrostxmen: Lesson learned.

I already have put other feats, not only in typing, but actually posted scans. If you don’t care about the underwater feat, then stop paying so much attention to it and actually address the feats involved. You targeted it to begin with for it being a bad example, but you’re completely ignoring the other feats. I complied with the challenge of cosmic level high ends. Address them or stop replying.

My god, I never even said it was equal to black hole level. Don’t know why you keep repeating an irrelevant point that was made originally because you said that “Jean had trouble lifting buildings“ alone, in reference to an earlier feat without actual context of the time Jean was at in her heroic career or how the specific building compared to other buildings that were smaller then it to begin with.

Mewtwo is like planet level at best.

Jean Grey without the phoenix force is above that.

@pyrofn: I know very well Jean is above building level in TK, my earlier point about her struggling was PIS obviously, but it was worth mentioning.

Jean doesn’t have any feats from her TK that are remotely close to breaking space time period

@infinitymatrix: Jean isn’t even city level with just her TK

Jeans best power feats are planetary for her TP as well and it takes considerable effort to go beyond that. Jean was able to reach the earth from the sun with TP, but that’s range, not power

@emmafrostxmen: *sigh* Alright. Whatever.

@pyrofn: @lordofallhumans:a question is mewtwo a high tier ?

@hyoname: I don’t think so.

I don’t exactly remember all of its feats, but my impression of it was that it’s best feats were around island level. That is range.

For power, Mewtwo is described as the most powerful Pokemon to exist. Whether that is meant literally or is just hyperbole is debatable. Needless to say, I’ve more or less seem a greater feats in its tk than its tp.

As far as skilled telepathy goes, it has very basic feats. Best feat with tp is suppressing the special abilities of all the Pokemon, forcing them to fight physically. He can also wipe memories to multiple people. With that in mind, the people in question don’t have any sort of psionic defense, so Mewtwo wasn’t going to run into any resistance to begin with.

Based around these feats, while Mewtwo is incredibly powerful as a telekinetic and in energy projection, as a telepath, it would rank as a low tier for its lack of skill and power. The bright side though is that it still has all around better feats than any Pokémon that isn’t a legendary. Hell, legendaries would be pressed to compare feats to Mewtwo.

So he's basically a Moondragon with amazing TK 🚬

@pyrofn: The most powerful pokemon at the time of gen 1.

Plus Mew tied with him in the movie.

In Gen 8, I doubt he still is, after Mega Rayquza, the creation trio, and Arceus.

@cruelrain: why are you throwing shade at moondragon ? :P

@emmafrostxmen: Jean Grey took out Binary Captain Marvel.

Who is at least star level.

Also, she can astrally project herself, so I have no idea what Mewtwo would do about that.

Jean can create a force field with her tk that is nearly impenetrable. Her shields have allowed her to travel through hyperspace into a white hole, tank a full blast from Binary, tank a nuclear gas explosion at point-blank range

And Mewtwo was going destroy the world overtime with a storm, so he's only really small country level. I was being nice when I said Planet level, bc that was Shadow Mewtwo X that had that feat from Pokken Tournament.