China White is so skilled that she beat Katana at her own game, which is katanas, just to prove that she could. And Katana recently outfought and killed Maseo, who was a high ranking agent in Argus AND the League. China White is a top tier.
@nickzambuto: What has she really done that puts her in May's league besides stalemate Ollie and own Diggle though? Taking into consideration the rate at which Diggle jobs, the latter isn't all that impressive.
@jimmy_rustler: China White is so skilled that she beat Katana at her own game, which is katanas, just to prove that she could. And Katana recently outfought and killed Maseo, who was a high ranking agent in Argus AND the League. China White is a top tier.
And Diggle doesn't "job." The phrase "job" is one of those like "PIS" that people on Comic Vine use as an all-purpose adjective to explain everything without knowing what it actually means. Diggle is a lot more simple than that, he doesn't "job", he just loses a lot because he's not top tier in that universe. Doesn't mean he has no feats.
@jimmy_rustler: China White is so skilled that she beat Katana at her own game, which is katanas, just to prove that she could. And Katana recently outfought and killed Maseo, who was a high ranking agent in Argus AND the League.
To be fair, Maseo didn't really do much against anyone impressive until he fought his wife, and then he lost and died. So if we're judging him based upon his high-end showings against quality tiers then he really only has one and look how that turned out for him. If we're judging Katana based off of her showings against quality tiers then she has 1 (China) and 1/2 (Maseo). Everybody else was fodder. I actually think that when the couple is fighting together in tandem = 1 high-tier. Separately, they are mid-tiers.
China White is a top tier.
It's debatable but she's taken down enough mid-tiers and has stalemated the current highest tier so I guess I can agree for the most part. However, she still can't beat May. Her being an alledged top-tier in her universe doesn't put her above May, a confirmed top-tier in her universe who has better feats overall feats. May would take this 6/10 times imo.
And Diggle doesn't "job." The phrase "job" is one of those like "PIS" that people on Comic Vine use as an all-purpose adjective to explain everything without knowing what it actually means. Diggle is a lot more simple than that, he doesn't "job", he just loses a lot because he's not top tier in that universe. Doesn't mean he has no feats.
I disagree. Diggle has the physique and the toolbox to win most of the fights that he loses -- that is textbook (if there was a textbook that included the term) jobbing. Plus he's awesome and Black; ain't no awesome Black guy suppoed to losin' like that lol
@nickzambuto: About to go see AoU again. I'll give you the rundown later either tonight or tomorrow but it will probably be tomorrow as I still have yet to complete my opener for the Live Action tourney. Eh, I'll try to do both tonight though.
China White is so skilled that she beat Katana at her own game, which is katanas, just to prove that she could. And Katana recently outfought and killed Maseo, who was a high ranking agent in Argus AND the League. China White is a top tier.
@nickzambuto: Taking down Grant in a melee, who had just previously taken down a dozen, well trained, armed, and armored men in H2H a few episodes previously.
@jacthripper: Diggle took down a dozen well trained and armed Taliban insurgents after they had just wiped out his whole squad, after being stabbed in the back with a hatchet, by ripping out the hatchet and using it to slaughter them all alone all before a scarf thrown in the air could reach the ground, and China White has defeated Diggle twice.
@jacthripper: Diggle took down a dozen well trained and armed Taliban insurgents after they had just wiped out his whole squad, after being stabbed in the back with a hatchet, by ripping out the hatchet and using it to slaughter them all alone all before a scarf thrown in the air could reach the ground, and China White has defeated Diggle twice.
@black_arrow: It was mostly off screen, the episode where Bronze Tiger is introduced, Ollie fought Tiger and Diggle fought China, but Diggle lost and Ollie saved him. However, it's worth mentioning that the fight might not have actually been over yet, as Diggle later stated that Ollie got in the way and he was "just about to spring his move." He stated it matter of factly, not like a sore loser. @jacthripper: Yes.
@jacthripper: Does it really, though? Those Insurgents were just fodder. Ollie would do something like that effortlessly, and Diggle has always been considered a peer of sorts. Not that they're on par, but Diggle has always been portrayed as at least capable of standing next to Ollie as a partner of sorts. His best feat is still stalling Ravager, and besides that he's been able to hold his own with most notable fighters in the show (Ollie, Sara, Malcolm, China, Brick). The feat in the comics isn't anything inconsistent, it just seems inconsistent because people on Comic Vine have this misconception that Diggle is incompetent, when in reality he's a great fighter who just has bad luck in that he hangs around with all the top tiers when in reality he himself is just a mid tier.
@jacthripper: Does it really, though? Those Insurgents were just fodder. Ollie would do something like that effortlessly, and Diggle has always been considered a peer of sorts. Not that they're on par, but Diggle has always been portrayed as at least capable of standing next to Ollie as a partner of sorts. His best feat is still stalling Ravager, and besides that he's been able to hold his own with most notable fighters in the show (Ollie, Sara, Malcolm, China, Brick). The feat in the comics isn't anything inconsistent, it just seems inconsistent because people on Comic Vine have this misconception that Diggle is incompetent, when in reality he's a great fighter who just has bad luck in that he hangs around with all the top tiers when in reality he himself is just a mid tier.
Diggle is only a mid-tier bc his writers are dumb-sh!ts. And I haven't forgotten about those May feats either so fret not.
@jacthripper: Does it really, though? Those Insurgents were just fodder. Ollie would do something like that effortlessly, and Diggle has always been considered a peer of sorts. Not that they're on par, but Diggle has always been portrayed as at least capable of standing next to Ollie as a partner of sorts. His best feat is still stalling Ravager, and besides that he's been able to hold his own with most notable fighters in the show (Ollie, Sara, Malcolm, China, Brick). The feat in the comics isn't anything inconsistent, it just seems inconsistent because people on Comic Vine have this misconception that Diggle is incompetent, when in reality he's a great fighter who just has bad luck in that he hangs around with all the top tiers when in reality he himself is just a mid tier.
Diggle is only a mid-tier bc his writers are dumb-sh!ts. And I haven't forgotten about those May feats either so fret not.
That's harsh. Everyone was completely satisfied with Diggle's roll and the writer's abilities until the latter half of season 3. If the writers were dumb sh!ts then Diggle wouldn't be so loved.
@jacthripper: Does it really, though? Those Insurgents were just fodder. Ollie would do something like that effortlessly, and Diggle has always been considered a peer of sorts. Not that they're on par, but Diggle has always been portrayed as at least capable of standing next to Ollie as a partner of sorts. His best feat is still stalling Ravager, and besides that he's been able to hold his own with most notable fighters in the show (Ollie, Sara, Malcolm, China, Brick). The feat in the comics isn't anything inconsistent, it just seems inconsistent because people on Comic Vine have this misconception that Diggle is incompetent, when in reality he's a great fighter who just has bad luck in that he hangs around with all the top tiers when in reality he himself is just a mid tier.
Diggle is only a mid-tier bc his writers are dumb-sh!ts. And I haven't forgotten about those May feats either so fret not.
That's harsh. Everyone was completely satisfied with Diggle's roll and the writer's abilities until the latter half of season 3. If the writers were dumb sh!ts then Diggle wouldn't be so loved.
Obviously I was referring to their treatment of him in terms of his combat ability. They've done a great job with his char. development though.
@nickzambuto: No. Top tiers are characters like Mirakuru Deathstroke and the likes, at best, you can argue China White is a high tier, but she's not crossing the line to get to be a top tier anytime soon.
@nickzambuto: No. Top tiers are characters like Mirakuru Deathstroke and the likes, at best, you can argue China White is a high tier, but she's not crossing the line to get to be a top tier anytime soon.
Speaking in terms of martial arts obviously, not including metahumans.
@jacthripper: Does it really, though? Those Insurgents were just fodder. Ollie would do something like that effortlessly, and Diggle has always been considered a peer of sorts. Not that they're on par, but Diggle has always been portrayed as at least capable of standing next to Ollie as a partner of sorts. His best feat is still stalling Ravager, and besides that he's been able to hold his own with most notable fighters in the show (Ollie, Sara, Malcolm, China, Brick). The feat in the comics isn't anything inconsistent, it just seems inconsistent because people on Comic Vine have this misconception that Diggle is incompetent, when in reality he's a great fighter who just has bad luck in that he hangs around with all the top tiers when in reality he himself is just a mid tier.
Diggle is only a mid-tier bc his writers are dumb-sh!ts. And I haven't forgotten about those May feats either so fret not.
That's harsh. Everyone was completely satisfied with Diggle's roll and the writer's abilities until the latter half of season 3. If the writers were dumb sh!ts then Diggle wouldn't be so loved.
Obviously I was referring to their treatment of him in terms of his combat ability. They've done a great job with his char. development though.
Defeated a group of armed gangsters and an inhuman with super strength with a knife
Beat Grant Ward a shield agent who has been compared to black widow and was given shield's highest standard for hand to hand combat twice
This is all true. Now they've actually tussled twice thus far in the series, both instances taking place last season. The first time they fought, it was stalemate but I figure that May was holding back a little because she didn't really want to severly injure Ward due to the fact that
Ward was being influenced by mind control.
May was in a sexual relationship w/ Ward at that point in time...it didn't work out just in case you were wondering.
I can't find their first fight so you'll have to settle for their last one:
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Beat Agent 33 another of shield greatest
In this clip, you'll see that Agent 33 is impersonating May (33 is the one in the sparkly dress).
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Beat Marcus Scarlotti a.k.a. Whiplash, one of the world's most renowned mercenaries notorious for almost killing Hawkeye
Watch this whole clip bc it gives you an idea how skilled SHIELD and HYDRA-trained agents really are. This clip features Mockingbird and Lance Hunter, another highly skilled SHIELD asset, fighting together while May takes on Whiplash, the leader of the HYDRA cell that they are battling, by herself:
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Beat Francis Noche a man strong enough to easily bend metal bars
Fought Mockingbird to a standstill
So about this...Bobbi Morse a.k.a. Mockingbird is another top-tier fighter in the MCU. Her character is obviously based off of her 616 counterpart, who is an Avenger. Her feats include battling Ward and 33 (simultaneously) to a nigh-stalemate after being tortured by them hours prior. She also defeated a Kree insurgent that invaded earth and subsequently defeated Lady Sif, who was tasked to bring him back to Asgard in order to stand trial or something like that. So Bobbi beat a superhuman foe that an Asgardian Warrior had problems with...do that math. So in this clip below, you see her face off against May:
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I just wanted to add this just cause. Skye, who couldn't fight at all during the first season, became May's student during the break in between seasons. Toward the end of the season, this is what Skye became capable of:
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Skye clears out a room full of elite HYDRA agents in 36 seconds. Why this is impressive? Bc, at that point, Skye had only been training with May for only about 6-7 months prior to that encounter. Keep in mind that this show has yet to employ the use of time-skip.
Now here is her brief fight with May, which takes place a few episodes after what happened in the clip above. First, you see her use her powers to dismantle a SHIELD agent's gun and then she proceeds to destroy the poor guy. May intervenes and so they fight -- teacher vs. student. When May finally did take off the "kid" gloves, she quickly stomped her prize student. In retaliation, Skye desperately had to resort to using her powers to defeat May:
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@americanspeeddemon: Great job with your breakdown man. I was supposed to do this and beat me to it so I kinda hate you right now. Jokes :P
@nickzambuto: There's more feats that I could probably find if I really looked hard enough but hopefully what @americanspeeddemon and I have given you here is enough for now.
@americanspeeddemon: Did you not see the spoiler block that I posted after I wrote that? It basically says that I was joking lol. But in all seriousness, thank you for posting those feats of May. You even posted a couple of details that I was either unaware of or had forgotten like May having more blackbelts than BW -- mind blown. Good stuff man. You should contribute to these types of battles more often.
I find it funny how most Arrow fans come in and vote without giving reasons as to why they think their character wins. That's why I don't respects the opinions of very many of them. Guys like you and Nick (even though he can be a little biased at times too) are the exceptions bc at least y'all try to back up your claims with tangible evidence and feats.
I am pretty sure katana(which she has no feats at all) is the best feat for china,, unless we call stalemating Ollie once it?? May,, wins over ward, agent 33(white level), skye(again white level), stalemated bobbi(above white), Not to mention what she did to become the calvary. May is at Ollie's level and would be a good match for him in hand to hand...
I am pretty sure katana(which she has no feats at all) is the best feat for china,, unless we call stalemating Ollie once it?? May,, wins over ward, agent 33(white level), skye(again white level), stalemated bobbi(above white), Not to mention what she did to become the calvary. May is at Ollie's level and would be a good match for him in hand to hand...
Katana also fought and beat Maseo, who is nigh-featless himself. Nickzambuto based his reasoning off of the portrayal of these characters rather than on their feats displays.
I am pretty sure katana(which she has no feats at all) is the best feat for china,, unless we call stalemating Ollie once it?? May,, wins over ward, agent 33(white level), skye(again white level), stalemated bobbi(above white), Not to mention what she did to become the calvary. May is at Ollie's level and would be a good match for him in hand to hand...
Katana also fought and beat Maseo, who is nigh-featless himself. Nickzambuto based his reasoning off of the portrayal of these characters rather than on their feats displays.
I think most people base their believes on what they should be ie their comic book counterparts. Ben Turner should have been Ollie's hardest opponent outside of Slade but he isn't even in the discussion when we think about most skilled of the DCCU..
May actually defeated a superhuman in straight hand-to-hand. Not even Arrow has done this yet. He was stomped by Slade and Grundy in his first fights against them, and had to depower Slade and take out Grundy by blowing up that machine. Against Flash he needed a bit of prep and made heavy use of his gear. Of course, Francis Noche isn't nearly as powerful as Grundy, Slade, or Flash, but he's still above peak human and May beat him.
China just held her own against S1 Oliver. Sure, she beat Tatsu in a swordfight but she doesn't have a sword here, Tatsu fights pretty stupidly (leaps into the air, right in front of a gunman, for some reason he panics and doesn't shoot her before he gets sliced in half) and she's just beaten LoA fodder who even Laurel is defeating now (beat Maseo as well, but she sorta took him by surprise).
Defeated a group of armed gangsters and an inhuman with super strength with a knife
Beat Grant Ward a shield agent who has been compared to black widow and was given shield's highest standard for hand to hand combat twice
This is all true. Now they've actually tussled twice thus far in the series, both instances taking place last season. The first time they fought, it was stalemate but I figure that May was holding back a little because she didn't really want to severly injure Ward due to the fact that
Ward was being influenced by mind control.
May was in a sexual relationship w/ Ward at that point in time...it didn't work out just in case you were wondering.
I can't find their first fight so you'll have to settle for their last one:
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Beat Agent 33 another of shield greatest
In this clip, you'll see that Agent 33 is impersonating May (33 is the one in the sparkly dress).
Loading Video...
Beat Marcus Scarlotti a.k.a. Whiplash, one of the world's most renowned mercenaries notorious for almost killing Hawkeye
Watch this whole clip bc it gives you an idea how skilled SHIELD and HYDRA-trained agents really are. This clip features Mockingbird and Lance Hunter, another highly skilled SHIELD asset, fighting together while May takes on Whiplash, the leader of the HYDRA cell that they are battling, by herself:
Loading Video...
Beat Francis Noche a man strong enough to easily bend metal bars
Fought Mockingbird to a standstill
So about this...Bobbi Morse a.k.a. Mockingbird is another top-tier fighter in the MCU. Her character is obviously based off of her 616 counterpart, who is an Avenger. Her feats include battling Ward and 33 (simultaneously) to a nigh-stalemate after being tortured by them hours prior. She also defeated a Kree insurgent that invaded earth and subsequently defeated Lady Sif, who was tasked to bring him back to Asgard in order to stand trial or something like that. So Bobbi beat a superhuman foe that an Asgardian Warrior had problems with...do that math. So in this clip below, you see her face off against May:
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I just wanted to add this just cause. Skye, who couldn't fight at all during the first season, became May's student during the break in between seasons. Toward the end of the season, this is what Skye became capable of:
Loading Video...
Skye clears out a room full of elite HYDRA agents in 36 seconds. Why this is impressive? Bc, at that point, Skye had only been training with May for only about 6-7 months prior to that encounter. Keep in mind that this show has yet to employ the use of time-skip.
Now here is her brief fight with May, which takes place a few episodes after what happened in the clip above. First, you see her use her powers to dismantle a SHIELD agent's gun and then she proceeds to destroy the poor guy. May intervenes and so they fight -- teacher vs. student. When May finally did take off the "kid" gloves, she quickly stomped her prize student. In retaliation, Skye desperately had to resort to using her powers to defeat May:
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@americanspeeddemon: Great job with your breakdown man. I was supposed to do this and beat me to it so I kinda hate you right now. Jokes :P
@nickzambuto: There's more feats that I could probably find if I really looked hard enough but hopefully what @americanspeeddemon and I have given you here is enough for now.
May for a solid majority, her durability is insane i.e. getting smacked by Lorelei (an Asgardian) and getting hit a few times by Eva Belyakov (inhuman with enhanced strength).
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