ROUND 1: They fight in an empty place in the middle of nowhere
ROUND 2: Dagon has Dragonborn ally and Morgoth has Sauron
vs
Dagon in a curbstomp both rounds.
Edit: on a second thought, I think Dagon wins with extreme difficulty or Morgoth wins with difficulty on round 2.
@reikai: I don't know. In another thread, it has been argued that the Daedric Princes lack "feats" to suggest they can defeat beings like Thor, much less survive any of his attacks. Morgoth is very much a 'Thor-level' being.
@xlr87t3:They can argue whatever they want, doesn't make it true. Fact remains, Daedric Princes are Immortal. In every sense of the word. They're virtually omnipotent and from the moment they came into existence they created their own realities, their own planes of existence within Oblivion.
They can change reality on a whim and completely reshape their own realms however they wish. They have no true shape or form and can appear in whatever guise they wish from a bunny rabbit to a planetsized tentacled fiend.
Literally the only reason Dagon didn't take a colossal dump all over Nirn was because of the Eight Divines that hold dominion over Mundus and keep the Daedric Princes from doing just that, even while not all of them are out to skullf**k the whole thing.
Dagon has an infinite army of Daedra and Dremora at his disposal and can even create entirely new variations at his leisure. The same as with all the Princes.
They can argue whatever they want, doesn't make it true. Fact remains, Daedric Princes are Immortal. In every sense of the word. They're virtually omnipotent and from the moment they came into existence they created their own realities, their own planes of existence within Oblivion.
They can change reality on a whim and completely reshape their own realms however they wish. They have no true shape or form and can appear in whatever guise they wish from a bunny rabbit to a planetsized tentacled fiend.
Literally the only reason Dagon didn't take a colossal dump all over Nirn was because of the Eight Divines that hold dominion over Mundus and keep the Daedric Princes from doing just that, even while not all of them are out to skullf**k the whole thing.
Dagon has an infinite army of Daedra and Dremora at his disposal and can even create entirely new variations at his leisure. The same as with all the Princes.
Morgoth.
He is immortal. He can create infinite armies. He is technically planetary level if not stronger.
Also Sauron > Dragonborn.
But seriously they cannot kill each other since they are both immortals.
this. but if they actually could kill each other...
i've got like 500hrs of Skyrim playtime and i'm almost 100% positive that Morgoth stomps pretty handily both rounds.
Dragonborn vs Sauron at the height of their power would be interesting given all the shouts and spells that Dovahkiin has, but Sauron is like the hardest 'semi-mortal" ever to actually kill. lol
@reikai: I don't know. In another thread, it has been argued that the Daedric Princes lack "feats" to suggest they can defeat beings like Thor, much less survive any of his attacks. Morgoth is very much a 'Thor-level' being.
um has Thor created new races and species before? (such as dragons that Smaug and Alduin would be very much afraid of) i agree his strength is probably at that level, but his power and intellect is probably a lot higher than the Hammer Man. idk much about the Rune King or Odin Force versions of Thor though.
Dagon is powerful, but Morgoth is on a higher level i think. same with Sauron.
Morgoth.
He is immortal. He can create infinite armies. He is technically planetary level if not stronger.
Also Sauron > Dragonborn.
But seriously they cannot kill each other since they are both immortals.
this. but if they actually could kill each other...
i've got like 500hrs of Skyrim playtime and i'm almost 100% positive that Morgoth stomps pretty handily both rounds.
Dragonborn vs Sauron at the height of their power would be interesting given all the shouts and spells that Dovahkiin has, but Sauron is like the hardest 'semi-mortal" ever to actually kill. lol
@reikai: I don't know. In another thread, it has been argued that the Daedric Princes lack "feats" to suggest they can defeat beings like Thor, much less survive any of his attacks. Morgoth is very much a 'Thor-level' being.
um has Thor created new races and species before? (such as dragons that Smaug and Alduin would be very much afraid of) i agree his strength is probably at that level, but his power and intellect is probably a lot higher than the Hammer Man. idk much about the Rune King or Odin Force versions of Thor though.
Dagon is powerful, but Morgoth is on a higher level i think. same with Sauron.
Actually true is that both Morgoth and Thor are warriors. But Gadon looks for me really more like a creator. Morgoth is more skilled duelist.
I agree with you.
@reikai: Well, the fact that Herma Mora needed the Dragonborn to indirectly help him learn the secrets of the Skaal contradicts the idea of him being an omniscient being, especially since his sphere is knowledge and fate. And Nocturnal lost control over one of her realms. Also, there's absolutely no evidence that the Daedra can translate their creation/alteration abilities into a battle since they haven't shown it, so there's nothing that could prove they could. I'm just saiyan, there is evidence.
@xlr87t3: I never said he was omniscient. You're mixing words again. And seeing as the fact the Aedra shaped and formed Mundus tells you what the Princes can do because they were all the Same at the beginning. The only difference is the Aedra/Divines lost their true immortality when creating Mundus thanks to Lorkhan while the Princes retained theirs.
Also both Hircine and Sheogorath created monsters to do battle for them as part of a bet and it took place on Nirn, so clearly they can. Their is also their attempts at merging realms, which would change the entirety of reality itself. Nvm that the Princes are omniscient within their own realms.
Also, Nocturnal didn't lose a realm. It came under attack from another Prince and she kicked'im out with a bit of help. Plus you also forgot where they have changed entire races of people on Nirn, instantly.
Also wanted to point out OP didn't say anything about BFR or summoning minions. Dagon can BFR Morgoth to Oblivion where he will have home turf advantage.
Daedric Princes aren't really unstoppable in their realms but thats a different topic. For this thread, nobody posted feats for Morgoth so I'll just side with Dagon.
@cooljammy18: Morgoth can shatter the earth with his hammer. To you, that's more than enough feats to beat an Elder Scrolls god.
@cooljammy18: Morgoth can shatter the earth with his hammer. To you, that's more than enough feats to beat an Elder Scrolls god.
Are you being passive aggressive here?
Give me feats for both that aren't wrapped up in allegory, unreliable narrators, metaphor, narrative hyperbole, and distorted by half truths and I'll consider this vaguely possible to debate.
I never said he was omniscient. You're mixing words again. And seeing as the fact the Aedra shaped and formed Mundus tells you what the Princes can do because they were all the Same at the beginning. The only difference is the Aedra/Divines lost their true immortality when creating Mundus thanks to Lorkhan while the Princes retained theirs.
If you're truly omnipotent, you're omniscient, if you weren't, you wouldn't be omnipotent. Hermaeus Mora threw that argument out of the window by asking the Dragonborn to fetch the secrets of the Skaal, in his own realm of infinite knowledge, and he's among the most powerful of the Princes. They may be able to create and change within their own planes, but they are lacking significant combat related feats, let alone outside of their realms.
I don't know anything about Morgoth however, so i'm not sure about his feats in battle compared to Dagon's, maybe @princearagorn1 could help there.
@pope052: Penderor can provide most of the things you need I think.
@pope052: Penderor can provide most of the things you need I think.
Alright, thanks, i'll ask him for some feats if needed ;)
@pope052: And I never said he was truly omnipotent either. I said the Princes were Near-Omnipotent. Surely by now even you should be able to know the difference. Also the Secrets Mora was after did not exist within his realm, but on Solstheim, which is part of Nirn and thus Mundus and under the influence of the Divines.
Storn even says that the secrets the Skaal possess have no real value to Herma-Mora and are nothing in comparison to what he already knows, it was only the fact they were keeping it hidden from him that made Mora want them. The nature of those secrets were entirely irrelevant to Mora wanting them. He's a knowledge hoarder after all.
And what combat feats do they need? They can't be harmed or killed, and those like Magnus just moving between planes tore holes in reality as a side-effect. Any of them could destroy the world and everything else if allowed to manifest fully. Something even Clavicus Vile could've done at the end of "Lord of Souls" by manifesting within Umbriel using the sword Umbra, and had the floating city connected with the White-Gold Tower, the Daedric Prince would've been able to Completely Manifest on Nirn. If that had happened, the Divines wouldn't have been able to stop him.
Even during Oblivion, Dagon was not fully manifested. That was only an avatar he squeezed through, and it still took Akatosh to stop him.
And I never said he was truly omnipotent either. I said the Princes were Near-Omnipotent. Surely by now even you should be able to know the difference. Also the Secrets Mora was after did not exist within his realm, but on Solstheim, which is part of Nirn and thus Mundus and under the influence of the Divines. Storn even says that the secrets the Skaal possess have no real value to Herma-Mora and are nothing in comparison to what he already knows, it was only the fact they were keeping it hidden from him that made Mora want them. The nature of those secrets were entirely irrelevant to Mora wanting them. He's a knowledge hoarder after all.
Fair enough, but near omnipotent based on what exactly? Anyway, it wouldn't matter where the Secrets of the Skaal were kept, and how would the Divines' influence have any effect on Mora obtaining simple knowledge from Tamriel? Their impact on Nirn didn't prevent Mora from revealing himself and impaling Storn, which is hardly a more difficult task than obtaining their secrets, especially since the Skaal were aware of how dangerous Herma-Mora was. Apocrypha is supposedly an infinite library of knowledge and thus the information one could achieve there is endless, including the knowledge from Tamriel, so there's really no valid reason as to why the Skaal's secrets couldn't be known or found out by himself, but the Dragonborn was his saving grace.
And what combat feats do they need? They can't be harmed or killed, and those like Magnus just moving between planes tore holes in reality as a side-effect. Any of them could destroy the world and everything else if allowed to manifest fully. Something even Clavicus Vile could've done at the end of "Lord of Souls" by manifesting within Umbriel using the sword Umbra, and had the floating city connected with the White-Gold Tower, the Daedric Prince would've been able to Completely Manifest on Nirn. If that had happened, the Divines wouldn't have been able to stop him. Even during Oblivion, Dagon was not fully manifested. That was only an avatar he squeezed through, and it still took Akatosh to stop him.
They'll need something that suggest their abilities translate into a fight, aside from their inability to be permanently killed, that doesn't detract and outweigh lacking the requirements in order to win either. And even based on what you've said, it's for the most part a could and would type of argument, there's nobody among the Princes who has shown anything related to battle, let alone stand up to mortals as powerful as Thor (i'd rather not get into an argument involving Thor however, i'm just exampling), a being who is vastly above any mortal in the Elder Scrolls Universe. If we were to ignore the lack of relevant/worthy feats from Mehrunes Dagon and only base it off his power to create or change, then by that logic the Chakravartin of Asura's Wrath would've beaten Asura by logic, since he was the one who created the universe, but he didn't.
In regards to this battle, maybe @penderor could help with some of Morgoth's feats.
Fair enough, but near omnipotent based on what exactly?
Base on immortality, on Universal Reality Warping abilities, on effectively existing in a multiversal capacity thanks to how the Elder Scrolls explains things which helps better explain the Dragon Break.
Anyway, it wouldn't matter where the Secrets of the Skaal were kept, and how would the Divines' influence have any effect on Mora obtaining simple knowledge from Tamriel? Their impact on Nirn didn't prevent Mora from revealing himself and impaling Storn, which is hardly a more difficult task than obtaining their secrets, especially since the Skaal were aware of how dangerous Herma-Mora was. Apocrypha is supposedly an infinite library of knowledge and thus the information one could achieve there is endless, including the knowledge from Tamriel, so there's really no valid reason as to why the Skaal's secrets couldn't be known or found out by himself, but the Dragonborn was his saving grace.
It does matter. For one, the Divines created Mundus. It's their territory. They made the rules. However it's still 8 vs 17, the Princes have them outnumbered and have weakened the barriers between reality enough to gain some influence over Mundus, but generally not far from Shrines dedicated to them or from portals linking their domains to Nirn.
One other such method of spreading and increasing their influence was the creation and distribution of their Artifacts. The more they are sought out and used, the more influence over the mortal races and Nirn they can exert. Which is why and how Mora could kill Storn since Storn was holding and directly using one of Hermaeus Mora's artifacts. One of his Black Books. Those Black Books are tied to Mora himself, and to his plane of Oblivion, Apocrypha. And as we know, using them draws part of the user into that realm. Meaning Mora could directly influence and kill Storn.
Also, you seem to forget that Mora was just using the DB as a tool, and he knew it would work, because that's what Mora does. He scryes fate. He can foresee the future. Essentially he would've already known the Skaal's secrets because he knew they would surrender them to him. He was just going through the motions.
He could've killed Miraak himself. But then he's left without a pawn. Why lose a Dragonborn tool when you could replace it with a fresher, stronger one?
They'll need something that suggest their abilities translate into a fight, aside from their inability to be permanently killed, that doesn't detract and outweigh lacking the requirements in order to win either. And even based on what you've said, it's for the most part a could and would type of argument, there's nobody among the Princes who has shown anything related to battle, let alone stand up to mortals as powerful as Thor
The Champion of Cyrodill had to be empowered by Sheogorath himself just to fight Jyggalag, which allowed Sheogorath to separate himself from Jyg and become two separate Princes. It was basically a fight between two Princes. Jyggalag had been so powerful that the other 15 Princes at the time combined forces to curse him and transform him into Sheogorath.
Also I wouldn't argue Thor either since, by feats, Morgath ain't got nuthin on him either. Claims Morg can crack the world with his hammer and yet never does so just makes the claim pointless when Thor has actually done so, and so much more. So yes, bringing up Thor is entirely pointless.
Also people forget just how powerful aspects of the Princes can be. One such lesser form of Molag Bal had literally walked through a village and killed every living thing there with nothing more than a red mist that formed around him. The only other fight referenced was between Amalexia and an aspect of Mehrunes Dagon. This was during the height of the Tribunal's power. And remember, these were people drawing on the power of the Heart of Lorkhan, who is every bit the equal of a Divine or Prince.
Recall, these people had immense power. Vivec had not only flooded an entire country, but even stopped a moon from Oblivion that was hurled at him by Sheogorath.
The Tribunal only possessed a fraction of the power equivalent to that of a Daedric Prince. To believe that Dagon in his full might wouldn't make this look like nothing is just silly.
Outside his realm, Melkor would beat Dagon. In his realm, Dagon stomps. This is the power level of the Aedra, whom the Daedra should be comparable to (from the lore-maker himself)...
What are planets?
The planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
@penderor: I...must...resist...gaaaagh!!!
Boromir: "One does not simply walk into Mordor!"
Dovahkiin: "Hold that thought." *walks out*
Gimli: "Where in the Deep is he going?"
*few min later*
Dovahkiin: "FUS RO DAH!"
*thunderous explosion heard. Land quakes. Council of Elrond stumbles around*
Gandalf: "By the Valar! What was that?!"
*Dovahkiin walks back in*
Boromir: "Where did you just go?"
Dovahkiin: "First, say what you said before."
Boromir: "Pardon?"
Dovahkiin: "About Mordor. I want to hear it again."
Boromir: "Um...alright...*ahem* One does not simply walk into Mordor."
Dovahkiin: "What's Mordor?"
Boromir: "What do you mean 'What's Mordor'?"
*Dovahkiin grins devilishly*
Elrond: "....Holy Sh**-"
I like how people insinuate that in game quests have relevance to the true powers of the daedric princes. The shrine quests are all about manipulation and games, the Daedra are not connected to Tamriel that's the whole story line of Oblivion, Dagon trying to get to Tamriel where he could utilize his godly powers and take over.
@kingofash: Lol no, the Aedra are weaker than Daedric Princes, big time.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Aedra
"Unlike the Daedra, the Aedra do not have their own native planes within Oblivion. Rather, the act of creation bound them permanently to the mortal plane. Additionally, their power was so reduced that the Aedra lost the ability to manifest themselves physically or to interact directly with their creation. This limitation is one of the prime forces behind the existence of daedra worship; since the Daedric Lords did not give up their strength to create Nirn, they retain the power to interfere with the mortal world and are thus attractive to mortals who were hungry for power of any kind."
@penderor: I...must...resist...gaaaagh!!!
Boromir: "One does not simply walk into Mordor!"
Dovahkiin: "Hold that thought." *walks out*
Gimli: "Where in the Deep is he going?"
*few min later*
Dovahkiin: "FUS RO DAH!"
*thunderous explosion heard. Land quakes. Council of Elrond stumbles around*
Gandalf: "By the Valar! What was that?!"
*Dovahkiin walks back in*
Boromir: "Where did you just go?"
Dovahkiin: "First, say what you said before."
Boromir: "Pardon?"
Dovahkiin: "About Mordor. I want to hear it again."
Boromir: "Um...alright...*ahem* One does not simply walk into Mordor."
Dovahkiin: "What's Mordor?"
Boromir: "What do you mean 'What's Mordor'?"
*Dovahkiin grins devilishly*
Elrond: "....Holy Sh**-"
...so dovahkiin becomes very forgetful when sauron sends a storm?
@princearagorn1: Storm? Storm of soldiers or weather storm? If storm of soldiers than chain lightning, if weather storm than clear skies shout. If you meant neither then please explain. I'm confused as to what you meant by that.
Morgoth was the most powerful of all the Valar , beings created before the beginning of time, space, or reality, and had a share in the powers of all the Valar.
The Valar where the creaters of everything that is in the LOTRU meaning that try are the creators of a entire universe of magic.
To prove Melkors might in the song of Illuvitar (Eru Illuvitar is the omnipotent being who created the Valar in the LOTR), a contest of power and majesty between the Valar, Morgoth's discord was so overpowering that the Valar where silenced or in some cases began to warp there own tunes to that of Melkor's (meaning that his might was so great he in fact corrupted that songs if the other Valar) and in the end was rivalled by Eru himself 3 times as he still did not falter after the first attempt (eventually Eru's music overpowered Morgoth's). Morgoth is also responsible for all evil in the universe and is said to return from the void for 1 final fight that is said to end creation.
Basically Morgoth was above the combined power of the creators of the universe ad was only opposed by the most powerful omnipotent being in LOTR.
@maccyd: Some are jealous cause it's pretty. Some are just spiteful and want to spit in the face of their cousins. The only ones who've actually sought to conquer Nirn were Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal. The rest just don't care and enjoy messing with mortals as opposed to trying to take over.
And ME is a spec of dust next to a plane of Oblivion. Middle-Earth is just a part of a continent. A plane of Oblivion is Infinite in size. Just as the Princes are infinite and their Planes match them. Even though the Divine Aedra are 'mortal', their bodies themselves can only be perceived as Planets by mortal minds, even when those aetherial bodies are in actuality of infinite size and mass.
You can't compare Middle-Earth to any of these entities.
@princearagorn1: Storm? Storm of soldiers or weather storm? If storm of soldiers than chain lightning, if weather storm than clear skies shout. If you meant neither then please explain. I'm confused as to what you meant by that.
"Thunderous explosion and land quakes are heard", leading in dragonborn forgetting about what boromir said? Sounds like sauron's job.
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