Meetra Surik vs Darth Zannah

vs

Basic knowledge, morals on, both in character. Fight takes place on Malachor V, who wins?

The last battle I made for these two wasn't allowing me to post so maybe this one will.

@shootingnova@jedixman@jkbart@dccomicsrule2011@i_like_swords

I doubt Meetra is a better swordsman than Revan, but I also doubt Zannah's Sorcery would be a winning factor, and Zannah is certainly not winning via skill or power. Meetra for at least a solid majority.

What feats does she have, though? I don't recall anything particularly impressive, other than beating Traya.

@jedixman: www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/meetra-surik-jedi-exile-respect-thread/96944/

@darkdefender: I've already posted a link to her respect thread. If you still have questions after that, then you can ask me.

Exile fo sho.

@darkdefender: You don't need knowledge on Sorcery to resist it. Resisting Sorcery (Zannah's only combative Sorcery was TP, and her tendrils were only invoked on a dark side nexus) is very much like resisting Mind Control, or Essence Transfer (a good example because Zannah resisted it without knowledge of the technique itself). All you need is strong telepathic resistance, and a sufficient level of willpower. Meetra has exactly that.

And without her Sorcery, Zannah has no victory conditions satisfied.

@darkdefender: Not sure what fears Meetra has for Zannah to play on either.

Zannah is powerful, but given that Traya, a vastly more powerful character, failed to defeat Meetra by virtue of power, I think it's safe to say Zannah cannot, and Meetra is the better fighter, both with a blade, and in martial arts. Combined with Meetra's instantaneous learning and incredible perceptive traits, as well as Zannah being unfamiliar with facing Wounds in the Force, I think Meetra has a decisive edge.

@darkdefender: Meetra does not have that fear because she does not hunger in the same way Nihilus does.

Revan was never noted for lacking Force power, and his Force showings are very impressive. Zannah has never utilized Illusions on anybody of note (Set Harth, Sarro Xaj, Cyndra etc. all had no feats) and the one person she used it on who did have feats was Bane, who managed to break out of it.

I don't know how Meetra being a wound in the force would effect this fight though it does add a sort of unpredictability to it.

Zannah has never faced a Wound in the Force before. Sensing one is likely to trouble her to some extent.

@darkdefender: Revan's Force powers are not lackluster compared to powerful Force users either.

@darkdefender: He is not lacking in Force power to begin with. I have no idea why you insist it is so. Revan is lauded by objective sources as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history.

@darkdefender: Revan does have power showings to put him within the upper echelons of Force users.

@darkdefender: Yes.

Bump

Not much to say. Meetra's telepathic resistance and willpower is likely enough to resist Zannah's Sorcery, which is her only win condition. Zannah is too defensive to land a single hit on Meetra (who also knows Soresu), and Meetra has the better skill feats as well.

@shootingnova: Was hoping something could be said about Zannah but oh well. Meetra wins lol

@thevivas: Zannah has talent, but the way she was raised can be a hindrance in fights. She only knows Soresu, so unless the skill gap between her and the opponent is gaping and in her favor, then she can't win via lightsaber combat. An unarmed Bane was able to stave off Zannah through Force attacks simply because she was not used to being the aggressor. She has no decent displays of offense minus counteroffensives which are often employed when the opponent is distracted or tired, which is more or less her fighting style.

Apart from that, her only way to win is through either gaping power edge (which more or less never happens in the fights she is pitted against, and she doesn't even utilize telekinesis in combat anyways) and through Sorcery, but if somebody can resist her Sorcery and is more skilful than she is, as is here with Meetra, then Zannah has no victory conditions to reliably fall back on to win a majority.

Hmm... how much one's opinion can change in a year and a half is interesting. As it stands, I find Zannah the generally superior combatant, it's just her methods of winning aren't practical in a match-up like this.

Zannah. I doubt Meetra has the willpower to actually resist her sorcery, on top of this Zannah's more skilled and can adapt to Meetra's versatility - which is practically her only advantage.

@wollfmyth209: Learning Atton's anti-TP techniques from his Sith days, resisting Malachor V, resisting the effects of Nathema, resisting Traya's TP, performing well within the Emperor's mindf*cking presence, and learning from Revan the ability to block mental domination as a whole, is more than enough collectively to resist Zannah.

Zannah is lacking compared to Meetra's composite mastery of all seven forms, which she weilds to a degree ambidextrously, Zannah also lacks Meetra's precognitive abilities via Danger Sense, and Echani martial arts.

Physically neither is dominating the other, but given that Zannah's lightsaber technique is to essentially tire out the opponent, she's going to be out of luck against an army buster.

Meetra has killed three imperial guards whilst severely hampered, in the same time it took Lord Scourge to get tagged by and kill Captain Yarri and another Imperial Guard, whilst amped off of their emotions.

She outskilled a master of lightsaber combat, and master of Form VII: Juyo in Atris, whom had the combined knowledge of the Jedi library as well as dozens of Sith holocrons containing Sith combat techniques to learn from.

She slaughtered two entire legions of elite Sith assassins and dark Jedi, all of which were the remnants of Darth Revan's specialised anti-Jedi dark side sect. This is of course the Sith Triumvirate which was stated to kill tens of thousands of Jedi, many of them the bladeborn which were only given the elite rank after gaining ten victories over Jedi in combat.

She also defeated Darth Traya, another master lightsaber duelist, whom has easily dodged the attacks of Brianna, whom herself blitzed all five of her Echani handmaiden sisters, masters of Echani precognition.

Now we could discuss Force powers, but I can't see Zannah defeating Surik there either. A nexus hindered Surik could barrier the majority of Nyriss' Force lightning, which has comparable potency to that of RoT Darth Bane's.

Offensively, her best feat is telekinetically disrupting Darth Traya's use of kinetic lightsaber combat, which was affirmed to be a display of the vast telekinetic prowess of Darth Traya. Darth Traya whom easily dominated three(four counting Lonna Vash) powerful Jedi Masters without gesturing, choked out Mira, Visas and Brianna simultaneously, choked out Darth Sion, killed 9 Sith assassins without gesturing and can wreck giant machinery.

I realise it is a rather indirect comparison, but in a video game world it is effectively all we are getting. Competing with telekinesis of that tier is however incredibly impressive on Surik's part, especially considering the extreme disadvantages Surik had been under the entire time she'd been on Malachor V.

Surik wins, she is just.. better, and she's beaten better.

@sithrevenant:

Learning Atton's anti-TP techniques from his Sith days,

WOW, how lovely. Let me know when this allows her to resist TP of a person that has influenced hundreds of Sith.

resisting Malachor V, resisting the effects of Nathema,

Not TP related.

resisting Traya's TP,

Which isn't up to stack with Zannah's.

performing well within the Emperor's mindf*cking presence,

Anything noting the Emperor was even attempting to dominate her mind at all?

and learning from Revan the ability to block mental domination as a whole, is more than enough collectively to resist Zannah.

Not quite. Meetra doesn't have the telepathic resistence or willpower of Bane, and Zannah brought him down to his knees.

Zannah is lacking compared to Meetra's composite mastery of all seven forms, which she weilds to a degree ambidextrously, Zannah also lacks Meetra's precognitive abilities via Danger Sense, and Echani martial arts.

If Bane(who has beaten a master of all 7 lightsaber forms, exotic Weapon specialists, and is prized for being tactical and unorthodox) has failed to subdue Zannah through such means, Surik doesn't have a chance in hell.

Physically neither is dominating the other, but given that Zannah's lightsaber technique is to essentially tire out the opponent, she's going to be out of luck against an army buster.

Bane's beaten army busters before. And it's kinda hard to dub Meetra an army buster. She faced few Sith at a time, not an entire army at once.

Meetra has killed three imperial guards whilst severely hampered, in the same time it took Lord Scourge to get tagged by and kill Captain Yarri and another Imperial Guard, whilst amped off of their emotions.

Good for her. Doesn't make her better than Zannah.

She outskilled a master of lightsaber combat, and master of Form VII: Juyo in Atris, whom had the combined knowledge of the Jedi library as well as dozens of Sith holocrons containing Sith combat techniques to learn from.

So what? Bane as of PoD stomped Sirak who mastered Form VII and perfected saberstaff fighting techniques.

She slaughtered two entire legions of elite Sith assassins and dark Jedi,

So has Raskta Lsu. Bane was driving her and two other Jedi Champions back. And Zannah fought a superior Bane.

all of which were the remnants of Darth Revan's specialised anti-Jedi dark side sect. This is of course the Sith Triumvirate which was stated to kill tens of thousands of Jedi, many of them the bladeborn which were only given the elite rank after gaining ten victories over Jedi in combat.

And the fodder of the Brotherhood was noted as being worth thousands of Imperial Soldiers and being substantially ahead of padawans and Knights. Raskta still slaughtered hordes of them, casually.

She also defeated Darth Traya, another master lightsaber duelist, whom has easily dodged the attacks of Brianna, whom herself blitzed all five of her Echani handmaiden sisters, masters of Echani precognition.

Good for her. Stalemating prime Bane is better.

Now we could discuss Force powers, but I can't see Zannah defeating Surik there either. A nexus hindered Surik could barrier the majority of Nyriss' Force lightning, which has comparable potency to that of RoT Darth Bane's.

Only when Nyriss' lightning was at full charge, she would've reduced Surik to ash. And it's not like Zannah couldn't do the same since she's blocked telekinetic attacks from Darth Bane.

Offensively, her best feat is telekinetically disrupting Darth Traya's use of kinetic lightsaber combat, which was affirmed to be a display of the vast telekinetic prowess of Darth Traya. Darth Traya whom easily dominated three(four counting Lonna Vash) powerful Jedi Masters without gesturing, choked out Mira, Visas and Brianna simultaneously, choked out Darth Sion, killed 9 Sith assassins without gesturing and can wreck giant machinery.

I realise it is a rather indirect comparison, but in a video game world it is effectively all we are getting. Competing with telekinesis of that tier is however incredibly impressive on Surik's part, especially considering the extreme disadvantages Surik had been under the entire time she'd been on Malachor V.

Bane has utterly destroyed one of the most powerful Sith Lords of his day with barely a gesture, had the potency to liquify people and could break the neck of RoT Zannah while injured(an untrained child Zannah managing to shield herself from a forest-destroying explosion). DoE Zannah managed to handle his TK just fine and even broke through his barrier.

Surik wins, she is just.. better, and she's beaten better.

Not even close.

I'd respond to Revenant but Wollf basically covered everything. Meetra can't resist Zannah's sorcery, and Zannah being on par with Bane as a telekinetic and escaping out from under his assault after falling on her back makes her a greater swordsman and Force wielder.

Nice job Wollf

@emperordmb: Thanks, DMB.

https://youtu.be/BMhM2ZXN4Lg?t=71

Some questions/counters:

1. I thought Bane lost to Kas'im. And doesn't Meetra have better feats than him anyway?

2. Meetra may not have taken out entire armies at once, but she has faced multiple generic Sith at a time that were amped (given that Malachor V is strong in the Dark Side).

3. Was Sirak a master? I thought he was a talented adept

4. Where did you get the bit about the Brotherhood's fodder being that good? I thought the whole point was that they were pathetic (thus explaining why Bane wanted the Brotherhood of Darkness eradicated--the title of Sith had been spread too thin). Yes, I assume they killed some Jedi, but isn't the opposite true? It always seemed to me (from what I remember of those stories), that neither side had an overwhelming edge against the other.

5. I was under the impression that the lightning that turned Nyriss to ash had been augmented by Revan as well as redirected. My reason being that, Vitiate's more powerful lightning didn't turn Revan to ash when it hit him, so why did inferior lightning have a more devastating effect? I thought Revan was to blame for the lightning being that powerful. Especially because, Nyriss wanted Meetra and Scourge dead. There's no reason that she wouldn't turn them to ash if her lightning could do it.

6. Where was it said that Bane could liquefy people?

Not saying that Zannah wouldn't win, but I would like these matters cleared up.

@shroudofsorrow:

1. I thought Bane lost to Kas'im. And doesn't Meetra have better feats than him anyway?

Bane was driving saberstaff Kas'im into a desperate retreat, who is faster and more skilled than Meetra. Jar'kai Kas'im is the one who bested Bane in lightsaber combat before having a temple dropped on his head.

SithRevenant and I actually debated this if you think the debate will help answer your question: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/star-wars-council-level-round-1-emperordmb-vs-sith-1770575/

2. Meetra may not have taken out entire armies at once, but she has faced multiple generic Sith at a time that were amped (given that Malachor V is strong in the Dark Side).

As Wollf already pointed out, Bane has defeated army busters before his prime.

3. Was Sirak a master? I thought he was a talented adept

In the novel, he was a student at the Korriban academy then he was a Sith Master upon graduating from the academy. But his usage of the saberstaff confirms him as a master fighter and his use of Juyo marks him as a high level master of multiple forms.

4. Where did you get the bit about the Brotherhood's fodder being that good? I thought the whole point was that they were pathetic (thus explaining why Bane wanted the Brotherhood of Darkness eradicated--the title of Sith had been spread too thin). Yes, I assume they killed some Jedi, but isn't the opposite true? It always seemed to me (from what I remember of those stories), that neither side had an overwhelming edge against the other.

The Marauders and Assassins (the weakest of the brotherhood) were noted to be substantially above Jedi Padawan level, the Acolytes were noted to be Jedi Knight level, and every Lord was noted to be Jedi Master level and even the lowliest of the lords was stated to be more powerful than an entire division of troopers.

I actually made a respect thread for the Brotherhood of Darkness Sith Lords if you think that would be useful.

And obviously they're viewed as pathetic by a man who created an order where every Sith is trained to be one of the most powerful Sith of all time. That doesn't mean the Sith Masters in that order can't be Jedi Master level combatants.

5. I was under the impression that the lightning that turned Nyriss to ash had been augmented by Revan as well as redirected. My reason being that, Vitiate's more powerful lightning didn't turn Revan to ash when it hit him, so why did inferior lightning have a more devastating effect? I thought Revan was to blame for the lightning being that powerful. Especially because, Nyriss wanted Meetra and Scourge dead. There's no reason that she wouldn't turn them to ash if her lightning could do it.

Nyriss's lightning was powerful enough to ash people, but ONLY after she charged up her energy in preparation. An uncharged blast of her lightning only reduced two men to charred husks, not ash. And an uncharged blast is exactly the type of blast Meetra shielded against, though it still hit her and she was still floored for a very decent period of time.

Bane's lightning on the other hand can reduce four people to ash with a short uncharged one handed burst while he's exhausted.

6. Where was it said that Bane could liquefy people?

In Path of Destruction when he fought Kas'im:

The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Because Revan is powerful enough to absorb Vitiate's lightning to the point it fails to replicate Nyriss's lightning showings.He is that powerful.

Duh.

@emperordmb:Thank you for clarifying. I'm just a bit out of the loop with Russan-era characters. A few other questions then:

1. Kas'im is better than Meetra? I thought he was featless. Meetra's beating amped Sion and amped Traya (and dozens of amped generic Sith before that), seems pretty good to me.

2. So, I assume then that Nyriss fired a charged blast at Revan? Okay.

Thanks again for clearing everything up. Guess Bane and Zannah were better duelists than anyone thought, huh? And if Bane can liquefy people and ash people with lightning while not in top shape, I'd say he got a boost in respect too.

@jackofalltrades2:I seem to remember the novelization making it clear that Revan failed spectacularly to stop Vitiate's lightning because he was "more powerful than Nyriss could ever hope to be" or soemsuch. I like Emperordmb's explanation better.

@shroudofsorrow:

1. Kas'im is better than Meetra? I thought he was featless. Meetra's beating amped Sion and amped Traya (and dozens of amped generic Sith before that), seems pretty good to me.

Well Kas'im would've essentially blitzed a trainee Bane, who already stomped Sirak and sabersoloed a dozen Tuk'ata at once while exhausted and hungry. Plus, Kas'im's the best duelist in the Galaxy at the time, which includes Raskta Lsu and Lord Hoth who have also fought swarms of Sith at once in lightsaber combat.

2. So, I assume then that Nyriss fired a charged blast at Revan? Okay.

Well she fired the charged lightning attack at Meetra and Scourge and Revan jumped between them and redirected it.

Thanks again for clearing everything up. Guess Bane and Zannah were better duelists than anyone thought, huh? And if Bane can liquefy people and ash people with lightning while not in top shape, I'd say he got a boost in respect too.

No problem at all man. That's kinda what I've been working towards for three years now lol.

Where does it say he was the best?

I see. That makes sense.

Reminds me of ILS' campaign to get SW: Legacy characters respect. XD

@shroudofsorrow:

Where does it say he was the best?

In POD

After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Then he also has Kaan and Githany considering him the best fighter in the brotherhood.

Reminds me of ILS' campaign to get SW: Legacy characters respect. XD

I'd liken myself more to Ant's Revanite efforts, but that is a valid comparison as well. I also have the Ones of Mortis as an area of expertise.

Are there any characters you take a particular interest in?

Zannah

@darkdefender: In Dooku and maul vs vitiate I backed dooku and maul...XD

The hardest thing about video game characters vs novel characters is that the video game characters have to be "unrealistic" to be interesting. They have to be super powerful, or the game really wouldn't be very much fun. *cough Starkiller cough* That being said, you actually get to see the progression of Meetra, and you also get to see the progression of Zannah in the novels.

I think it would actually be a very close battle, but if Meetra is superior to Revan as a duelist, I think she could take it. Meetra 7/10.

Honestly, it's going to be a tough fight. Zannah's Soresu would function much the same as Kenobi's Soresu, and should be able to hold off a superior duelist, but as I read in another post, the saber staff would prevent Zannah's Soresu from being so refined. Meetra would find an opening in her defense, eventually.