MCU Daredevil/Nobu vs. CW Malcolm Merlyn/Slade

So Matt sucks because he didn't fight anyone with feats, yet everyone cites Billy Wintergreen as impressive? Billy Wintergreen fought Yao Fei who's best feat is, well look at that, beating Billy once and having the upper hand most of their second fight. Then of course, there's the Deathstroke instance where he died. Nothing impressive there.

Exactly. I hope that you don't mind me following you...bc I'm still gonna lol

Um..Billy also fought Slade. In fact he had upper hand for most of the fight.

Ugh if you're going to recount events then at least do it accurately. Billy did not have the upper hand during that fight. Slade stunned him first and then got floored. Then he recovered and proceeded to kick his a** and gut him like a fish.

@rbt: I mentioned that fight. The second to last sentence of my post.

@asgardianxeno929: We don't know exactly how long Slade has been active but he is Special Forces and a man of middle age in his upper 30's to early 40's just going by appearance alone, he is also listed as a Master hand to hand/sword/stick/marskman and in peak human condition he is at least as good as Merlyn without Mirakuru.

http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Slade_Wilson

@super_mod: Much appreciated :P

Wiki's aren't reliable sources just so you'll know. By feats, Slade hasn't done anything to suggest that he's on Merlyn's tier without Mirakuru...

@nickzambuto: Matt defeated the guy who blitzed 2 body guards.

Did you watch the video you posted? Billy was connecting more and actually send Slade out of fight.

Ok that's just embarrassing. Twice in one day.

Still, Billy's fight with Slade was his best h2h showing IMO. He was landing more hits and had upper hand for a moment.

@rbt: Eh, it's early (at least where I am).

After getting kicked down, Slade ended that fight pretty decisively. While decent, I still wouldn't consider that an impressive achievement by any stretch given Billy's other fights.

The question is, did you watch it? Billy didn't connect any vital parts of Slade's body until after the first break in their fight, which Slade clearly won. It doesn't matter how many time you connect when where you connect doesn't do enough significant damage to gain the upper hand on the person you are engaging. The only point during that fight where Billy had the upper hand was in the aftermath of their second exchange of blows. I swear that You and NickZambuto view these Arrow set-pieces through a very subjective lens. It's really hard to take y'all seriously in these types of debates bc of that..

Wiki's aren't reliable sources just so you'll know. By feats, Slade hasn't done anything to suggest that he's on Merlyn's tier without Mirakuru...

The wiki states what his skills are, and mentions several of his feats in the show that back them up, what has Merlyn done that you think Slade couldn't do? He was defeated by Oliver who was trained by Slade, I know it's a bit ABC but honestly I don't see how Merlyn is above Slade at all.

@devil_driver:

Let's start with the obvious reasons why Merlyn is a tier above Slade:

1. Merlyn has beaten Ollie in combat twice and would've beaten him a third time (in the season 1 finale) if Ollie hadn't stabbed through his own body to stab Merlyn.
2. Merlyn was trained by the frickin' League of Assassins which makes him more skilled -- this should be a given.
3. Merlyn has beaten a Mirakuru-enhanced enemy even though he struggled during the encounter. In his defense, what peak human wouldn't struggle against a superhuman?
4. He accomplished all of these feats and many more without a superhuman serum...unlike Slade.

In theory and on paper, Slade should be on an even standing with Merlyn but by feats, which is what we use to determine who is superior on this forum, Slade is inferior.

Daredevil beats slade. Nobu and Merlyn pretty even so DD and Noboe wins.

@super_mod: Oliver used Merlyn's arrow to stab himself, not his own. And League of Assassin training shouldn't really make that much of a difference, considering Roy and Oliver have had none and they've been able to handle them just fine. Not to mention Merlyn himself was at the top of the food chain, just below Ra's.

I do agree that Merlyn is above Slade though.

@super_mod: Fair enough on the feats but even if Slade is a little behind Merlyn I don't feel it's by much, his feats before Mirakuru weren't important to the overall scope of the plot they were just building up to him becoming Deathstroke, anyways Slade isn't some fodder character that's my overall point.

@super_mod: It's all good, a lot of people make the same mistake.

Overall skill, I can agree LoA are at the top

I agree with you that the gap between Merlyn and Slade isn't wide but it is there.

That isn't much to brag about though.

Yao Fei - Trained Chinese Government super fighter, framed for the massacre of dozens of people and imprisoned on Lian Yu where he survived for years, knows a pressure point technique that completely stops a person's pulse, wrecks groups of fodder regularly, great archery feats, trained Shado who also wrecks fodder even with her hands bound by using her father's techniques.

Billy Wintergreen - Highly trained agent of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service, endured torture and interrogation for over 200 days after being captured by Fyers, caught an arrow in his hand fired by a master archer at near point blank range, defeated Yao Fei in close quarters combat, shows great knowledge and skill of targeting bodily weak points and vitals at high speeds when wrecking fodder.

Neither of them have the greatest feats ever, but you need to start somewhere. The point is that Yao Fei has a few feats and is clearly skilled, then Billy beat Yao Fei, then Slade beat Billy. It's all ABC logic, same as comic books. Iron Fist is skilled because he fought Captain America who fought Deadpool who fought... Iron Fist. It's a circle, supplemented by other showings like against fodder and technical knowledge, both of which Yao Fei has therefore making his defeat by Billy impressive, which makes Billy's defeat by Slade even more impressive.

@nickzambuto: I wasn't saying it was just that Matt has beaten some people with feats.

LMAO.

Alright then let me rephrase: he hasn't beaten people with IMPRESSIVE feats.

@nickzambuto: None of that is impressive. In fact, none of that proves anything. Billy's only feats are fighting Yao Fei twice and losing to Slade. Yao Fei hasn't stomped whole groups of fodder, and his only feats outside of beating fodder are fighting Billy. So while their implied ability makes them impressive story wise, here on the Battles board, it means nothing.

Because you know what? If we're going to take all that and use that as proof of skill, then (as examples) MCU Hawkeye, Falcon, Crossbones, and Batroc just became a hell of a lot more impressive. But since we don't, all that stuff about the two mean jack.

And your comic book argument is flawed, since guys like Iron Fist are written with their entire character centered around martial arts. Captain America is a soldier who spent time training and learning new martial arts, and even created his own that suits him. I don't know a whole lot about Deadpool, but he's done more than enough to prove his skill against martial arts characters. We know they are skilled because of their stories. Having them fight each other only places them.

None of that is impressive. In fact, none of that proves anything. Billy's only feats are fighting Yao Fei twice and losing to Slade. Yao Fei hasn't stomped whole groups of fodder, and his only feats outside of beating fodder are fighting Billy. So while their implied ability makes them impressive story wise, here on the Battles board, it means nothing.

And who did Matt fight that was so impressive again? nobody up until he met Nobu who was beating him to death and he would have died if he hadn't set the guy on fire, he spent most of the series beating up unskilled thugs and even then getting beaten up himself a fair amount of the time.

Slade is good enough to hold his own against Matt and Merlyn should be able to defeat Nobu handily, even if Slade goes up against Nobu he can likely last long enough for Merlyn to take Matt out and then Nobu, I just see Merlyn as the top factor in this battle overall.

@stormdriven: Sounds like a double standard, Yao Fei's whole story and role revolved around his martial arts and survival skills, so what separates him from Iron Fist, besides the fact that Iron Fist is a comic book character? Obviously Yao Fei isn't to the same degree as Iron Fist, but nobody is arguing that Yao Fei can beat anybody, he's on the bottom of the food chain in Arrow, which simply speaks testaments to the ability of characters like Ollie considering Yao Fei is clearly skilled in his own right. He HAS wrecked groups of fodder by himself, when he rescued Ollie from Fyers he had to fight his way through the whole camp until he found him, then after dropping Ollie off at the cave Yao Fei went out and spent a few days hunting down everyone who had followed them. Your comparisons between Hawkeye, Crossbones etc is ignorant, those characters only have training to their name, Yao Fei and Wintergreen have training AND a few feats, as I listed which you seem to have ignored for some reason, maybe you couldn't think of a counter to support your own opinion in light of what I brought up, but instead of changing your mind you decided to just pretend I didn't say anything. That seems to be a common debating tactic on the battle boards.

Regardless like I said, Yao Fei doesn't even NEED feats because he's not a main combatant. The character who has beaten the character who has beaten the character who has beaten Yao Fei is a main combatant, so the fact that Yao Fei himself even does have a few feats and high training puts every successive character on a higher plateau. Why is this any different from comic books? Ollie has a combination of knowledge, training, natural talent, and ABC victories to put him on pretty good ground in terms of martial arts, and Merlyn and Slade have both been shown to be at least equal to him.

You say that Captain America has created his own fighting style? I'm pretty sure that's not true, Cap's super soldier brain allows him to adapt to opponents very quickly, but it's never been stated that he uses his own unique fighting style. Regardless, on several occasions Ollie has shown the ability to learn and master techniques just after seeing or having them used on him (Yao Fei's pressure point, Slade's disarming maneuver) and also adapt himself to superior enemies and surpass them in the middle of battle (Solomon Grundy, Captain Boomerang, Komodo). Is that not impressive? But when Cap does the same thing it IS impressive, right?

What exactly are you asking for here? You seriously think that Daredevil and Nobu win this thread? Or are you trying to prove that Yao Fei couldn't beat Captain America in a fist fight? Because I don't think anyone would disagree with ya there, doesn't take away from the fact that Oliver is highly skilled in his own right.

Team MCU

Do you just want me to start tagging you into my MCU battles from now on? A couple of users have already asked so I don't have a problem doing it.

@super_mod: Sure, that'd be great. Thank-you.

No prob

@nickzambuto:

Sounds like a double standard

Ironic, considering your original statement.

Yao Fei's whole story and role revolved around his martial arts and survival skills

Did you even read what I said? I said Yao Fei was impressive in the context of the show i.e. the story.

so what separates him from Iron Fist

The fact that we know exactly what Danny has done for training and what entails him gaining the title of Iron Fist.

besides the fact that Iron Fist is a comic book character

You really think I'm basing my entire argument off the fact that he's a comic character? Come on...

but nobody is arguing that Yao Fei can beat anybody

Then why do people bring him up in the first place?

which simply speaks testaments to the ability of characters like Ollie considering Yao Fei is clearly skilled in his own right

IN THE CONTEXT OF THE STORY

He HAS wrecked groups of fodder by himself, when he rescued Ollie from Fyers he had to fight his way through the whole camp until he found him

He could have used stealth for that, or he could have slipped past without anyone seeing him. No one raised an alarm, so let's not try to make this Yao Fei taking on whole groups of men at once

Yao Fei went out and spent a few days hunting down everyone who had followed them

No he didn't, he said he was going to lead them off. Nothing about hunting them.

Your comparisons between Hawkeye, Crossbones etc is ignorant, those characters only have training to their name, Yao Fei and Wintergreen have training AND a few feats

Oh really? Because Yao Fei's only feats against fodder are throwing that one guy through the entrance to the tent Oliver was held in and choking out a guy with his legs, while Billy has no feats besides the Yao Fei fights. So Yao Fei has next to no feats, and Billy has none whatsoever. Hawkeye fought Chitauri in close quarters, and since you want to play the "Billy beat Yao Fei" thing, then Rumlow was beating Falcon.

as I listed which you seem to have ignored for some reason

All addressed.

maybe you couldn't think of a counter to support your own opinion in light of what I brought up

You're right, I was so impressed with everything Yao Fei was implied to do.

Regardless like I said, Yao Fei doesn't even NEED feats because he's not a main combatant

Then why do people bring him up as if he's some impressive fighter?

The character who has beaten the character who has beaten the character who has beaten Yao Fei is a main combatant

You do realize how silly this justification sounds, right?

so the fact that Yao Fei himself even does have a few feats and high training puts every successive character on a higher plateau

But he hasn't done anything of note whatsoever, so that's moot.

Why is this any different from comic books

Because comic books to a better job in explaining and showcasing this kind of thing than TV shows do.

Ollie has a combination of knowledge, training, natural talent, and ABC victories to put him on pretty good ground in terms of martial arts

I have no idea how this became about Oliver.

and Merlyn and Slade have both been shown to be at least equal to him.

Merlyn is definitely above him, but agreed.

You say that Captain America has created his own fighting style? I'm pretty sure that's not true, Cap's super soldier brain allows him to adapt to opponents very quickly, but it's never been stated that he uses his own unique fighting style

Regardless, on several occasions Ollie has shown the ability to learn and master techniques just after seeing or having them used on him (Yao Fei's pressure point, Slade's disarming maneuver) and also adapt himself to superior enemies and surpass them in the middle of battle (Solomon Grundy, Captain Boomerang, Komodo). Is that not impressive? But when Cap does the same thing it IS impressive, right?

Do you seriously know what I'm arguing here?

What exactly are you asking for here?

My original argument was wondering why @devil_driver brought up Slade beating Billy as impressive, yet Matt fighting people who don't have feats automatically means he sucks. It's a dumb argument, and extremely hypocritical.

You seriously think that Daredevil and Nobu win this thread

Why not? Matt has better avoidance feats than either of the CW team, but was getting stomped by Nobu with his kusarigama. Since Matt has his suit, Malcolm and Slade are going to have a hell of a time getting through it.

Or are you trying to prove that Yao Fei couldn't beat Captain America in a fist fight

Because I don't think anyone would disagree with ya there, doesn't take away from the fact that Oliver is highly skilled in his own right

Serious question. Does everything really have to be about Oliver? I didn't mention him once, nor does he have anything to do with this thread. I wasn't taking shots at Oliver. Don't know where you got that from.

@stormdriven:

Serious question. Does everything really have to be about Oliver? I didn't mention him once, nor does he have anything to do with this thread. I wasn't taking shots at Oliver. Don't know where you got that from.

Then what exactly are you saying? Um, yeah, Yao Fei and Billy Wintergreen didn't have many feats, they'd probably lose to Captain America and Iron Fist, no sh!t. My point is that Oliver is skilled because of the ABC logic.

@devil_driver: Ain't even tag me.

And who did Matt fight that was so impressive again

Christ, here we go. Did you even read my original post?

nobody up until he met Nobu who was beating him to death and he would have died if he hadn't set the guy on fire, he spent most of the series beating up unskilled thugs and even then getting beaten up himself a fair amount of the time.

Totally, man. Hit the nail right on the head.

Slade is good enough to hold his own against Matt and Merlyn should be able to defeat Nobu handily, even if Slade goes up against Nobu he can likely last long enough for Merlyn to take Matt out and then Nobu, I just see Merlyn as the top factor in this battle overall.

I disagree, but if you decide to pursue this, then I'll debate it.

1. You already asked me this last post
2. I answered it
3. I can tell you didn't even read my last post. Who's the one ignoring things now?

My original argument was wondering why @devil_driver brought up Slade beating Billy as impressive, yet Matt fighting people who don't have feats automatically means he sucks. It's a dumb argument, and extremely hypocritical.

Billy had feats. He caught an arrow and beat Yao Fei.

@nickzambuto:

Billy had feats. He caught an arrow and beat Yao Fei.

And here we are, having gone full circle.

I'm going to leave with this: Two featless characters taking turns beating one another as their only feats, then having one of those characters losing to a main character, doesn't make the former characters impressive. If I have to explain that again, I won't be happy.

@stormdriven: What do you want? A never ending string of characters and feats that goes on infinitely to make sure everybody has beaten somebody? The fact that Yao Fei is very highly trained and elite to the point of knowing a pressure point technique that completely stops a person's pulse and has wrecked fodder off-screen isn't enough? The character has a multitude of skills; archery, survival, stealth, strategics, AND martial arts. Beating him is impressive, maybe not impressive enough to beat Daredevil, but we're not talking about Billy vs Daredevil, we're talking about Slade. How is catching an arrow fired at point blank range from a master archer not a feat?

Hawkeye, Crossbones, etc have NOTHING to do with this thread. What has Daredevil done that's more impressive than beating Billy?

@stormdriven What is up with people getting prickly over not being tagged in a thread that they are already involved in? it's not like I didn't tag you because I was ducking you or anything, I just assumed you would be keeping up.

I did see your OP and I'm not sure what your point is exactly, so Slade beating Billy isn't impressive, but Matt barely avoiding death at the hands of a featless character outside of this one fight is?

Go ahead and make your case I'm always open to change my mind if the case is good enough.

Heck of a bump, but just FYI, DD has also caught arrows. Not that there's a difference between catching and deflecting, he's reacting to and intercepting them them either way.

Bump, I'm interested in this fight. Kinda leaning towards Matt and Nobu, but that could just be because they're more recent, while Slade's been gone for a while and Merlyn seems to be losing his touch. Nobu and Matt also have a range advantage, and Matt's armor should protect him pretty well from swords

Current-nobu & matt win

In their prime-Slade & Malcom win

Matt and Nobu in a good fight

Team Netflix.

Team CW wins.

Good fight. I think the CW team for a slim majority.