#1 Posted by nickzambuto (14193 posts) - - Show Bio

Hand to Hand combat with equalized stats, no claws, no ki, and no healing factor. Takes place at the World Tournament with standard Budokai rules.

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#2 Posted by jashro44 (23159 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really get how you gauge DBZ characters without KI....There stats are totally dependent on KI and that's what they train in with there martial arts.

#3 Posted by Mortein (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

So this is about who has better fighting skills?

My bet would be on master Roshi

#4 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

Roshi has the better showings of h2h skill, so Roshi takes this

#5 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2551 posts) - - Show Bio

And it starts again...

#6 Posted by darkelf35 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

Master Roshi is far superior in martial arts. hes much older than wolverine and much more experienced

#7 Edited by Mortein (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkelf35 said:

Master Roshi is far superior in martial arts. hes much older than wolverine and much more experienced

Wolverine is pretty old to

#8 Posted by darkelf35 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah..they are both pretty old Wolverine is 110-150 Roshi is 430+

#9 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkelf35 said:

yeah..they are both pretty old Wolverine is 110-150 Roshi is 430+

Where do you know how old Roshi is?

#10 Posted by Kobra678 (215 posts) - - Show Bio

Roshi

#11 Posted by darkelf35 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

They said it a few times within the series that he was more than 400 years old

#12 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (4326 posts) - - Show Bio

the turtle pervert

#13 Edited by SlimJ87D (10439 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

I don't really get how you gauge DBZ characters without KI....There stats are totally dependent on KI and that's what they train in with there martial arts.

I read some of the handbook for DBZ. Ki and power levels are different.

You use Ki to make a power level. Goku for example turns SSJ, it amps his power level to number X and consumes ki at a rate at Y and he has Z amounts of Ki.

That's how Akira explained it. For one to use up all their Ki, one will die he also said. That's how Vegeta died when he self destructed, he performed an attack that temporarily increased his power level above Buu's but died in the process but sadly it only temporarily incapacitated Buu for how ever long it took for his magical body to regenerate. And because the Kamahama consumes extra Ki, that is why the users power level temporarily increases.

The reason why Goku was able to perform higher levels of Kaoken is also due to him increasing his spiritual energy, or rather Ki. So he had more Ki for the Kaoken to consume without straining his body and killing him.

#14 Posted by darkelf35 (518 posts) - - Show Bio
#15 Posted by jashro44 (23159 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D:Yes but the op says no ki. martial arts in DBZ is about training your KI from what I recall. Without KI you are sort of taking away the DBZ characters skill (for the most part anyways).

#16 Posted by iSHADOW (2269 posts) - - Show Bio

This is dumb. You might as well have called this WWII infantry vet VS. Shaolin monk.

#17 Posted by SlimJ87D (10439 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D:Yes but the op says no ki. martial arts in DBZ is about training your KI from what I recall. Without KI you are sort of taking away the DBZ characters skill (for the most part anyways).

Oh I understand, I just wanted to share with you on how Ki works in DBZ. It was a recent discovery for me actually. I always thought it worked that way.

#18 Posted by nickzambuto (14193 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D:Yes but the op says no ki. martial arts in DBZ is about training your KI from what I recall. Without KI you are sort of taking away the DBZ characters skill (for the most part anyways).

Not really. Characters increase their ki to increase their stats, but h2h combat techniques are an entirely different focus. Roshi is a renowned fighter even without his stats, he's mastered numerous different martial art styles most of which he created himself. Ki techniques are handy, but they're only about 10% of your average DBZ fight, most of it is high speed punches and kicks.

Not to mention the fact that Roshi only knows two ki attacks either way (kamehameha and Bangoku Lightning Thingy)

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#19 Posted by BlackWind (6850 posts) - - Show Bio

Mutaito sealed King Piccolo a few hundred years before the series began. And Turtle has stated Roshi isn't dying from age anytime soon.

However Roshi spent most of his years watching porn and living in seclusion rather than fighting.

#20 Posted by jashro44 (23159 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:Akira Toryamma confirmed everything in DBZ is done through the use of KI. Its how they win battle according to him...

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1330641-new-interview-with-akira-toriyama/

What's the trick to winning battles [in the DB world]?

A. Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

#21 Edited by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

I change my mind. Wolverine.

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#22 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Hand to Hand combat with equalized stats, no claws, no ki, and no healing factor. Takes place at the World Tournament with standard Budokai rules.

with no healing factor, Roshi stomps without moving,

why?......beause Wolverine will be dead old.

oh well just trolling, Roshi stomps he has versatile martial arts and also strength and speed even with equalized stats. he can knock him with one acupressure move.

#23 Posted by UltimateHero0406 (2171 posts) - - Show Bio

Roshi by a long shot. Normally, wolverine would have the excuse of age/experience but not in this case.

#24 Posted by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

Age/experience doesn't mean anything. Why people continuously use this as a valid point is useless. Why people think this is a straight up stomp is ridiculous.

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#25 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto:Akira Toryamma confirmed everything in DBZ is done through the use of KI. Its how they win battle according to him...

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1330641-new-interview-with-akira-toriyama/

What's the trick to winning battles [in the DB world]?

A. Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

We all know this, this is why dbz accused "false abc logic" but when it's between ~equal strong fighters, then they have to rely on skill and techniques. You can see it on the budokai tenkaichi fights. Being a ki user not close this case out. Also the stats are equal here, so they would use skills. Even in that interview AT says he watched a lot of Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. It doesn't look me he wanted to make unskilled powerhouses.

#26 Edited by NeonGameWave (8043 posts) - - Show Bio

Roshi is better in H2H, he should win after an interesting and good fight with Logan.

#27 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Age/experience doesn't mean anything. Why people continuously use this as a valid point is useless. Why people think this is a straight up stomp is ridiculous.

if you mean me, i said i was trolling, but Roshi still stomp because he's a martial art master with amped speed and reflex, he can KO Wolverine with one acupressure hit.

#28 Posted by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: I'm talking in general. Stats are equaled as per OP. Neither is faster than the other. And I could easily say the same for Logan. He's used pressure points at the very beginning of his fight with Thing in Enemy of the State (used his claw to do it) and he used one on Kid Gladiator at the start of their brief scuffle. Roshi hasn't shown anything to say he is the superior fighter here.

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#29 Posted by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10180 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolvie, pulls up Psylocke's shirt up and Roshi loses

#30 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12348 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fuchsia_Nightingale said:

Wolvie, pulls up Psylocke's shirt up and Roshi loses

#31 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: I'm talking in general. Stats are equaled as per OP. Neither is faster than the other. And I could easily say the same for Logan. He's used pressure points at the very beginning of his fight with Thing in Enemy of the State (used his claw to do it) and he used one on Kid Gladiator at the start of their brief scuffle. Roshi hasn't shown anything to say he is the superior fighter here.

if this was Batman vs Roshi or Karate Kid vs Roshi it would be diffuclt to judge, but vs Wolverine it's not that difficult, with equalized stats it comes to martial arts, and Roshi was for hundreds of years the strongest martial arts master in the globe, Wolverine is not. most of his fights he rely on his healing factor and smelling factor while Roshi use hand to hand fight and don't rely on his Ki or special Ki technics until the oppenent shows superabilities.

#32 Posted by Qpzmg (976 posts) - - Show Bio

Roshi

#33 Edited by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: Just because Wolverine always relies on his HF doesn't take anything away from his skill feats. His feats are already close to Batman in terms of skill and without his HF he is more inclined to use his skill. It's been shown that way in the comics when he lost his ady and his HF became burnt out. He's already beaten characters like Iron Fist, Captain America, and Shang-Chi with skill alone and he didn't even have much of a healing factor during his fight with Cap. He's got knowledge on all human pressure points and even alien ones. He's used them relatively early in some of the fights he has so that is an option he has.

And being the strongest martial artist for years in a show where a lot of the martial arts constitutes as few pressure points and punching and kicking really fast and overpowering your opponents, I'm not convinced in the slightest it is enough to take Logan. I don't think Roshi would even beat Daredevil or Cap in h2h.

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#34 Posted by ImmortalT1000 (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

Master Roshi would break his hand trying to hurt Wolverine.

Wolverine easily.

#35 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: Just because Wolverine always relies on his HF doesn't take anything away from his skill feats. His feats are already close to Batman in terms of skill and without his HF he is more inclined to use his skill. It's been shown that way in the comics when he lost his ady and his HF became burnt out. He's already beaten characters like Iron Fist, Captain America, and Shang-Chi with skill alone and he didn't even have much of a healing factor during his fight with Cap. He's got knowledge on all human pressure points and even alien ones. He's used them relatively early in some of the fights he has so that is an option he has

as i said, Master Roshi was recognized as the greatest Martial-arts Master for hundreds of years, Wolverine has no martial arts state. Roshi's technics were the greatest H2H and martial arts techniques in all earth, he displayed high level martial arts in his fights : Jan Ken techniques, Bound Technique, Kame style Kong Fu, Drunken style Kong Fu, acupressure techniques, High Speed Rush, Hypnonis...

what established martial arts Wolverine has ?

#36 Posted by nickzambuto (14193 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto:Akira Toryamma confirmed everything in DBZ is done through the use of KI. Its how they win battle according to him...

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1330641-new-interview-with-akira-toriyama/

What's the trick to winning battles [in the DB world]?

A. Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Well yeah, but powering up your muscles isn't going to make you instantly know combat techniques.

Like I said, Roshi doesn't use ki either way.

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#37 Posted by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: Virtually all of them.

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#38 Posted by Vance Astro (91300 posts) - - Show Bio
@NeonGameWave said:

Roshi is better in H2H, he should win after an interesting and good fight with Logan.

Roshi isn't better h2h...
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#39 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Hand to Hand combat with equalized stats, no claws, no ki, and no healing factor. Takes place at the World Tournament with standard Budokai rules.

Master Roshi's fighting style enhances his physical stats. If you are going to take away everything that makes them who they are... I don't see the point of the fight.

#40 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

@Fuchsia_Nightingale said:

Wolvie, pulls up Psylocke's shirt up and Roshi loses

I stand corrected. That was the point of this thread.

#41 Posted by nickzambuto (14193 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hand to Hand combat with equalized stats, no claws, no ki, and no healing factor. Takes place at the World Tournament with standard Budokai rules.

Master Roshi's fighting style enhances his physical stats. If you are going to take away everything that makes them who they are... I don't see the point of the fight.

Ki has no bearing on technique.

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#42 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: Virtually all of them.

what do you mean Virtually all of them??? no place to imaginary assumptions please, we're talking by feats here.

Master Roshi stomps, he has greater, more versatile, more efficient martial arts.

#43 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hand to Hand combat with equalized stats, no claws, no ki, and no healing factor. Takes place at the World Tournament with standard Budokai rules.

Master Roshi's fighting style enhances his physical stats. If you are going to take away everything that makes them who they are... I don't see the point of the fight.

Ki has no bearing on technique.

Then why not pit Wolverine against someone who actually has feats free of Ki manipulation? If Roshi doesn't have the physical advantage that he would have had then he literally has no advantage, whereas Logan has showings of his hand to hand abilities even when he didn't have/use his powers.

#44 Posted by NeonGameWave (8043 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro: I`m pretty sure he is, due to experience, skill, technique, and formula through the use of a stance in which there is a formation as well as confirmation of technique but Logan comes very close. If he isn`t better than Logan, he still however has the overall raw strength advantage but it would be a really good fight.

#45 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

overall raw strength advantage but it would be a really good fight.

Read the OP again

#46 Posted by nickzambuto (14193 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hand to Hand combat with equalized stats, no claws, no ki, and no healing factor. Takes place at the World Tournament with standard Budokai rules.

Master Roshi's fighting style enhances his physical stats. If you are going to take away everything that makes them who they are... I don't see the point of the fight.

Ki has no bearing on technique.

Then why not pit Wolverine against someone who actually has feats free of Ki manipulation? If Roshi doesn't have the physical advantage that he would have had then he literally has no advantage, whereas Logan has showings of his hand to hand abilities even when he didn't have/use his powers.

All of Roshi's feats are free of ki. Roshi doesn't even use ki besides two attacks. I've stated this several times now.

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#47 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hand to Hand combat with equalized stats, no claws, no ki, and no healing factor. Takes place at the World Tournament with standard Budokai rules.

Master Roshi's fighting style enhances his physical stats. If you are going to take away everything that makes them who they are... I don't see the point of the fight.

Ki has no bearing on technique.

Then why not pit Wolverine against someone who actually has feats free of Ki manipulation? If Roshi doesn't have the physical advantage that he would have had then he literally has no advantage, whereas Logan has showings of his hand to hand abilities even when he didn't have/use his powers.

All of Roshi's feats are free of ki. Roshi doesn't even use ki besides two attacks. I've stated this several times now.

My mistake, sorry. His fighting style still enhances his physical stats, which is the effect that I was referring to.

#48 Edited by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

@Vance Astro: I`m pretty sure he is, due to experience, skill, technique, and formula through the use of a stance in which there is a formation as well as confirmation of technique but Logan comes very close. If he isn`t better than Logan, he still however has the overall raw strength advantage but it would be a really good fight.

you guys are hurshly lowballing Roshi, -_-

read OP : equal stat, means same strength too.

with equalized stats, it comes to martial arts to decide, and everybody knows who's the greatest martial art master here.

#49 Posted by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: I'm not making imaginary assumptions. Marvel has him listed as being a master of virtually all forms of martial arts.

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#50 Posted by NeonGameWave (8043 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida: Ki is not allowed within this scenario but through technique and prowess of physical progression, I believe him to be more stronger if not equal to Wolverine.